As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes dont think anyone is suggesting that you do what you want and people do need to compromise, pf duties though may be another type of scenario where expectation is set a bit too high for all, and rarely is communication good. So negotiation between healers is lacking. Although you can assess the situation up to a point, it is a little more difficult and therefore carries more risk to do. The expectation at the moment, I have been told is not only healers expected to dps, but dps alot, on Zurvan ex.

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Right, but context is important. Why are you expected to DPS a lot? If the tank can handle it with minimal healing or your co-healer has it under control, then it's an understandable situation. They don't need additional healing from the Scholar. On the other hand, if the tank overestimates their abilities, you may need to take initiative and drop cleric early to accommodate. If that pisses them off, boop them on the head and tell them to mitigate better. I will say, PF groups can have horrendous communication and some people will jump down your throat instead of taking two minutes to figure out what's wrong. Better not to give them much thought.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The expectation at the moment, I have been told is not only healers expected to dps, but dps alot, on Zurvan ex. It may be a possibility that some, not all, groups are kind of expecting a little too much out of healers these days and sounds like its always up to the healer to make sure they carry the group to skip soar just wondering when this trend is going.

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The damage to skip Soar is done in the first phase of the fight, during which healers literally don't need to heal anyone at all. Healers aren't asked to DPS to "carry their group" there, they're asked to DPS to do something useful. As Bourne Endeavor said above, it's about context.

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Originally Posted by Taika

The damage to skip Soar is done in the first phase of the fight, during which healers literally don't need to heal anyone at all. Healers aren't asked to DPS to "carry their group" there, they're asked to DPS to do something useful. As Bourne Endeavor said above, it's about context.

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Then it kind of proves whst Im trying to say as both healers dps full on at first . What was lacking was the dps's dps but healers sort of get the blame as pressured to dps and failng healing as a result. It may have put pressure on tank to dps as well to make up for the deficiency. I thing your possibly wrong that dps dont go in groups to get a carry in some cases. These days everyone seems to be watching if a healer is dpsing or not. Such is the community's attitude towards it. Some dps can get away with sneaking into a farm on an alt. Healers cant do this really as people would die if they arnt healed. Saying that though if group knows what is wrong will boot such a dps. Then again healers job is much easier in groups that 'know'. Unfortunateky most of the community probably doesnt, but so much emphasis is put on healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Right, but context is important. Why are you expected to DPS a lot? If the tank can handle it with minimal healing or your co-healer has it under control, then it's an understandable situation. On the other hand, if the tank overestimates their abilities, you may need to take initiative and drop cleric early to accommodate. If that pisses them off, boop them on the head and tell them to mitigate better. I will say, PF groups can have horrendous communication and some people will jump down your throat instead of taking two minutes to figure out what's wrong.

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Your right communication is bad, and so are most, not just a few of the groups, for farms on Zurvan. Most fail actually. Its the worst primal farm to go on, in my experience. Not just for people failng but for people leaving for one wipe. So you could say they had some higher expectation. I have heard of healers being booted for not dpsing enough though as well.

Personally, I don't consider it a healer's job to dps, but I do consider it boring to stand around as a healer when there's not much to heal outside of throwing out a regen to the tank here and there. Plus, a little extra dps speeds things up and there's no wrong in that. If I'm not on healer, I won't complain if the healer doesn't dps because I can understand there's situations where they might not feel comfortable, and those situations aren't always apparent to the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraluna

Personally, I don't consider it a healer's job to dps, but I do consider it boring to stand around as a healer when there's not much to heal outside of throwing out a regen to the tank here and there. Plus, a little extra dps speeds things up and there's no wrong in that.

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I generally agree with you. But most of the people conversing here are talking about the content at level 60 and not in the levels we're at (your profile when I typed this said level 50 WHM, 53 on another server).

At the current content, they're dealing with what sounds like some kind of 'rage timer' (as they call it in WoW) - not enough DPS by some point in time means something bad happens. In an MMO like WoW such rage timers are built on the presumption that if all the properly geared DPS are carrying about 60-70% of their proper weight (if you fail a rage timer in WoW, you were really failing... they make it pretty hard to fail, but so many don't learn their classes/roles that it actually happens often enough), you will just make it through. So in WoW a healer or a tank never needs to switch to DPS unless they're getting bored by the mechanic.

I am guessing that here, at the top content - the DPS might need to pull about 80-90% of their potential... so anyone getting a 'carry' is going to put a LOT more lead onto a group's shoulders... in such a situation, a Healer DPSing can fill in whatever slack that 'subpar DPS' is leaving... it's actually pretty easy to 'under-perform' by only 10-15% or so... a little bit of lag, a moment of confusion, etc... will do it... so a healer filling in the gap will likely make all the difference if your team isn't 'amazing'...

That said, if somebody noticed the healer isn't DPSing, that is 'eye-time' not spent looking at their own actions. That alone will drop their DPS by a good 5-10%... So if you wipe because "the healer wasn't DPSing" it is more likely you wiped because half your DPS were watching the healer's cast bar rather than their own...

You know, it doesn't take much to glance a little to the left/right during GCD's - most players won't be losing 5-10% DPS by checking their surroundings. That's like saying they can lose DPS by watching for mechanics, which is on everyone (inc. Healers & Tanks). Any player with familiar keybinds doesn't have to be looking at the same place to actually perform. They WILL be losing DPS if they stop what they're doing to type out a jolly good rant mid-fight at whatever they've noticed. Secondly, it's not about filling gaps (not entirely). DPS can and will drop from max potential by default, eg. when forced to move away from targets due to mechanics et al. You can point out not everyone will be rocking BiS items and maintaining a flawless rotation 100% of the time, but a Healer DPS'ing isn't to remedy the gap that grows from it - it's to speed things up in general.

I know low level examples aren't entirely suitable, but the whole thing reminds me of my first foray into Urth's Fount (Odin). I never actually got to complete it via DF because 90% of groups I had failed mechanically and didn't have the patience for wipes. Those who surpassed that point typically had too little DPS to beat the one-shot DPS race, and more often than not, I saw plenty of Healers who were just standing there watching it happen waiting to heal people (and nobody actually even takes damage in this phase). That's a problem with inexperience, but you get the point. Every little helps, so it's not a question of making up for the DPS, it's a matter of punching above your own weight when you're not healing. No healer is healing 100% of a fight, so that downtime should be contributed towards helping in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

That said, if somebody noticed the healer isn't DPSing, that is 'eye-time' not spent looking at their own actions. That alone will drop their DPS by a good 5-10%... So if you wipe because "the healer wasn't DPSing" it is more likely you wiped because half your DPS were watching the healer's cast bar rather than their own...

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As a PLD main tank, my DPS rotation isn't difficult, neither is positionals, so I can get a good view of what everyone else is doing a lot of the time (especially the healers).

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Your right communication is bad, and so are most, not just a few of the groups, for farms on Zurvan. Most fail actually. Its the worst primal farm to go on, in my experience. Not just for people failng but for people leaving for one wipe. So you could say they had some higher expectation. I have heard of healers being booted for not dpsing enough though as well.

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This is a problem with Zurvan. The whole soar controversy was an oversight from the devs, and the reason why healer DPS is so clamoured for in that fight is because skipping difficult mechanics is the difference between faceroll and challenging fight. If you do not pass the DPS check then people are going to quit/kick.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I generally agree with you.

At the current content, they're dealing with what sounds like some kind of 'rage timer'



That said, if somebody noticed the healer isn't DPSing, that is 'eye-time' not spent looking at their own actions. That alone will drop their DPS by a good 5-10%... So if you wipe because "the healer wasn't DPSing" it is more likely you wiped because half your DPS were watching the healer's cast bar rather than their own...

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I think the only thing that there is to worry about being on a rage timer is the people that go in the farms and want to skip most of the mechanics and rage quit if they dont :D and, I find that last paragraph quite funny. Seriously though yes there is rage timer, but beats me why everything got to be skipped or rushed. I mean really games can be so boring if they are too easy I have most fun with abit of a challenge. Its sometimes people that spoil the fun with their not so nice attitudes

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Originally Posted by Feyona

beats me why everything got to be skipped or rushed.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

farm

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You answered it yourself. If people are doing repeat runs for loot, the faster/easier the runs, the more runs can be done, its not a very difficult concept to understand. I don't really understand your "its more fun with a bit of challenge" mentality on the subject of farm, challenge is fun when you are clearing the content, but on farm you want to make the fight as a quick and efficient as is within the partys ability.

So basically, healers should play 110% their potential always to speed the fight , anything less is unaceptable, while dps are expected to play 70-80% and thats okay, anything more its "player skill", interesting.
Well i guess im lucky that is not the mentality in my ex/savage groups (even a few pf ones), as a healer main i always have been treated fairly, even when i said i prefer to stay off cleric for a extra time bc i wasnt geared enough or was learning the fight.

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Originally Posted by Pireco

So basically, healers should play 110% their potential always to speed the fight , anything less is unaceptable, while dps are expected to play 70-80% and thats okay, anything more its "player skill", interesting.
Well i guess im lucky that is not the mentality in my ex/savage groups (even a few pf ones), as a healer main i always have been treated fairly, even when i said i prefer to stay off cleric for a extra time bc i wasnt geared enough or was learning the fight.

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Can you provide a quote for this hyperbole? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

As a PLD main tank, my DPS rotation isn't difficult, neither is positionals, so I can get a good view of what everyone else is doing a lot of the time (especially the healers).



This is a problem with Zurvan. The whole soar controversy was an oversight from the devs, and the reason why healer DPS is so clamoured for in that fight is because skipping difficult mechanics is the difference between faceroll and challenging fight. If you do not pass the DPS check then people are going to quit/kick.

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You may or may not agree but pld is one of the least complex classes to play. Monks maybe needing to watch their positionals more than what everyone else is casting and dragoons need to watch when and where they land :) blm need to watch their rotations and bards need to watch mana.

Im in my cell phone, i dont know how to quote, but look at Makeda's post in last page, but as you said in yours, you're a pld main, you can slack, since your basic rotations are easy, you dont have to give more than that, as your job is just mantain aggro, anyways your own post confirmed what i said :)

Btw, there's no hyperbole at all, go look what that word means ;)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You answered it yourself. If people are doing repeat runs for loot, the faster/easier the runs, the more runs can be done, its not a very difficult concept to understand. I don't really understand your "its more fun with a bit of challenge" mentality on the subject of farm, challenge is fun when you are clearing the content, but on farm you want to make the fight as a quick and efficient as is within the partys ability.

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The game is the game what you do with it isnt on a timer. You cant just expect to rush through cont to just get a bird. Part of the fun is it being a challenge to get. The only challenge there is patience, and some should exercise more of it instead of joining groups and desserting them all day. and making the rest of the group wait for another member. In your words 'compromise' for the group

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You may or may not agree but pld is one of the least complex classes to play. Monks maybe needing to watch their positionals more than what everyone else is casting and dragoons need to watch when and where they land :) blm need to watch their rotations and bards need to watch mana.

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Go back and read RopeDrinks post, it doesn't take much to glance to the left and right. The difference between those classes and tank classes (with PLD being the easiest) is that we can literally watch the healers while performing our role. The point is that at the very least, someone in the party will be able to watch what a healer is doing without any detriment to the party.

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Originally Posted by Pireco

Im in my cell phone, i dont know how to quote, but look at Makeda's post in last page, but as you said in yours, you're a pld main, you can slack, since your basic rotations are easy, you dont have to give more than that, as your job is just mantain aggro, anyways your own post confirmed what i said :)

Btw, there's no hyperbole at all, go look what that word means ;)

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My post in no way confirmed what you said, what you said is "So basically, healers should play 110% their potential always to speed the fight , anything less is unaceptable, while dps are expected to play 70-80% and thats okay, anything more its "player skill", interesting." which is a view that nobody here, especially not myself, holds, and is nothing but exaggeration on what has actually been said.

In raid content, all jobs are expect to perform at 100% (not possible, but in other words - push yourself as far as you can), and in casual content you are expected (hoped) to play at around the 70% that you describe. It was mathed out a few hundred pages ago, but in dungeons, healing only makes up 10-20% of a players potential, leaving 50-60% potential left to even meet what the rest of the party is doing.

So yes, I think hyperbole (hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.) perfectly fits your comment.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The game is the game what you do with it isnt on a timer. You cant just expect to rush through cont to just get a bird. Part of the fun is it being a challenge to get. The only challenge there is patience, and some should exercise more of it instead of joining groups and desserting them all day. and making the rest of the group wait for another member. In your words 'compromise' for the group

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My life is on timer though, if I have one hour to play, I would much rather fit 20 runs into that time than 5. Farm isn't a challenge, all of the challenge of the fight has been exhausted. I am fine being patient for someone who is still rough on the fight (which shouldn't be the case if it is farm), but I'm not going to choose to make the fight slower for the sake of it, and I would expect everyone to have the same mentality.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Go back and read RopeDrinks post, it doesn't take much to glance to the left and right. The difference between those classes and tank classes (with PLD being the easiest) is that we can literally watch the healers while performing our role. The point is that at the very least, someone in the party will be able to watch what a healer is doing without any detriment to the party.

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Let's just say there are other ways to analyze battle data that doesn't even include actively watching cast bars. It's very easy to spot healers that do not DPS without sacrificing your own attention or rotation accuracy, not to mention that competent players can auto-pilot a large portion of their rotation anyway.

I feel like having access to this DPS information is a great tool for reducing heartburn in general when confronted about DPS, because then you know for sure if it's your fault or if it's just some other person not pulling their weight.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

My life is on timer though, if I have one hour to play, I would much rather fit 20 runs into that time than 5. Farm isn't a challenge, all of the challenge of the fight has been exhausted. I am fine being patient for someone who is still rough on the fight (which shouldn't be the case if it is farm), but I'm not going to choose to make the fight slower for the sake of it, and I would expect everyone to have the same mentality.

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You may prefer it but I feel you shoulnt be expecting it. I mean the way it sounds is like everything got to be done super fast? Then where is the life span of the game. Oh yes get your point but not everyone else is going to meet those expectations. You do what you choose with your life though and you dont have to play any game you consider takes too long for you. And actually it just may slow positionals etc if your constantly watching what the healer is doing but those fights mechanics are rather fast paced too. Actually the only bird I have to get is zurvan and clear the rest of savage I probably wont come online for much else because its too easy, which bores me. So if I got my birds three months ago i may not be even bothering to come online by now. It really is a challenge to do some farms not in the way you mean but just finding one with good dps is a challenge and one without rage quiters. I also see patience as being a challenge

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You may prefer it but I feel you shoulnt be expecting it.

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You do realise this exact same sentence applies to healers that don't feel like contributing in damage too, right?

Eye time? I know when my fellow healer is in cleric stance blindfolded, it has a very distinctive sound upon activation, not to mention the red icon stands out a mile on combat text/buff bars as well.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

people that go in the farms and want to skip most of the mechanics and rage quit if they dont :D and, I find that last paragraph quite funny. Seriously though yes there is rage timer, but beats me why everything got to be skipped or rushed.

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Have you already forgotten the entire argument that constituted maybe 80 pages of this thread?

Skipping stuff makes or breaks the majority of pugs on significant chunks of the end game content (aka the current primal Zurvan, A12s and to a lesser extent, A11s, heck, I'd wager that a tiny portion of statics with A12S clears could consistently handle all the final phase mechanics up until enrage). So yes, it does matter. If you don't skip the big bad mechanic, a large portion of the player base simply won't be able to handle it. It really doesn't matter if you prefer it or not, that's just how it is.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You do realise this exact same sentence applies to healers that don't feel like contributing in damage too, right?

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Yes ofc so what is your point? Im actually saying that it doesnt matter if you skip all the skippable mechanics or not. It faster but there I dont expect anything except the clear with people that do their jobs . Oh I do actually expect dps to dps and healers to heal or there is no clear at all. What I dont expect all the time is it to be super fast.

People who never played as a Healer, or think healer should "make up" for the incompetence of dps, have no Right to say What healers should ir shouldn't do.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Eye time? I know when my fellow healer is in cleric stance blindfolded, it has a very distinctive sound upon activation, not to mention the red icon stands out a mile on combat text/buff bars as well.



Have you already forgotten the entire argument that constituted maybe 80 pages of this thread?

Skipping stuff makes or breaks the majority of pugs on significant chunks of the end game content (aka the current primal Zurvan, A12s and to a lesser extent, A11s, heck, I'd wager that a tiny portion of statics with A12S clears could consistently handle all the final phase mechanics up until enrage). So yes, it does matter. If you don't skip the big bad mechanic, a large portion of the player base simply won't be able to handle it. It really doesn't matter if you prefer it or not, that's just how it is.

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why do you even think I have disputed what youve said about it? You just do it till you improve enough to clear it then dont you? And that is actually the entire premise of the game improving to clear harder and harder content as a team, but wasnt talking about savage where you quoted me. I actually cant wait till you prople get your special instance that you wont be able to clear in a week and who knows you nay even have to improve enough to do it without healer dps cos healing requirements may be higher. Then you may have to stop trying to force it on the rest of us all the time and improve your own class. It may take you months

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Originally Posted by Feyona

but beats me why everything got to be skipped or rushed. I mean really games can be so boring if they are too easy I have most fun with abit of a challenge.

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^ that.

Hurry up and finish your Savage progression, I want to see logs!

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Originally Posted by Feyona

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That is essentially what farm parties are meant to be. Not every group will skip certain mechanics nor should you necessarily expect the same efficiency of your static. Nonetheless, you should be able to clear consistently even if a few runs do wind up going south. Some people may need a brush up on mechanics, especially for older fights. Now I'd much rather take two minutes to revive strategies instead of screaming "are you retarded?" Was on the receiving end of that just the other night when I mucked up Sephirot EX. There's no benefit insulting someone as they've far less likely to adapt that way. On the other hand, if they keep making mistakes, then I'll likely bow out. Why? I signed up to farm not explain the whole fight or their job rotation. If they aren't that inexperienced, they shouldn't be on farm but seeking a learning or clear party.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You may prefer it but I feel you shoulnt be expecting it.

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No offense, but you don't get to decide what people should or shouldn't expect. Spare me another 80 page ramble about the subject though. Some expectations will be met, others will not, and life goes on.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That is essentially what farm parties are meant to be. There's no benefit insulting someone as they've far less likely to adapt that way. On the other hand, if they keep making mistakes, then I'll likely bow out. Why? I signed up to farm not explain the whole fight or their job rotation. If they aren't that inexperienced, they shouldn't be on farm but seeking a learning or clear party.

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well there you go. I guess people have their own subjective standards of what they call a farm, there is a bit of a grey area.Sub par dps seem to join alot of farm parties and i still mess up on thordan after doing it 99 times. Messing up is always a possibility, but if I dont heal party is dead, anyway. If i heal you will clear , not as quick but quicker than a wipe. Just to say I do dps but always depends on how well the rest of group performs.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

No offense, but you don't get to decide what people should or shouldn't expect. Spare me another 80 page ramble about the subject though. Some expectations will be met, others will not, and life goes on.

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Yes and thats exactly what Im saying so why do you get to say if I should dps or not? And if you dont want eighty pages then dont post such silly comments while quoting me

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Originally Posted by Feyona

well there you go. I guess people have their own subjective standards of what they call a farm, there is a bit of a grey area.

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As far as I have encounted in my 4 years of playing the game, this is not true at all. There is a pretty set standard of what constitutes farm, and the only one contesting it is you. Farm parties are there to clear the run as many times as they can within a limited time frame. People have lives, they want to get on with them without wiping on content that they have cleared many many times, that is why the definition of farm parties exist, so that you as a player know not to join the party if you do not intend to have that mentality. Sub par players will join farm parties, but they shouldn't, and that is when people start getting kicked, or parties start disbanding, when players with differing mentalities to what constitutes farm start joining.

If you don't like that then join a clear party, or a learning party, there is your slow paced challenge, I'm sure those players would appreciate the help.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I actually cant wait till you people get your special instance that you wont be able to clear in a week and who knows you nay even have to improve enough to do it without healer dps cos healing requirements may be higher. Then you may have to stop trying to force it on the rest of us all the time and improve your own class. It may take you months

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This actually came across as bitter, nasty, and toxic. You talk about farm parties like it is a place for everyone (which they aren't, they are for people who are confident in the fight), yet you segregate the community by saying "you people" in an accusatory fashion, and lumping us all in the hardcore crowd that the hardcore savage raid tier is designed for. Please re-evaluate your tone, and keep discussion civil.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

^ that.

Hurry up and finish your Savage progression, I want to see logs!

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You wont see my logs cos they arnt posted in my static. Thank goodness cos Im kind of sick of logs being used to pull people to bits. Which actually could be done to anyone by those that are malicious enough to do so. So yes I like the fact thats its actually iagainst rules and pleased that gamers have a little bit of protection from people that enjoy hurting others. Although people like that do spoil it for others that would like the tool to monitor their own performance instead of making judgements about others

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I practically farm almost every day and the people that farm them are far from optimal. There may be an idea of what a farm is but that idea is not being manifested in almost all the farm parties Im in. Im not sure if what you state in that case excludes most of the player base. Because if everyone is expected to be optimal in them, farms would be very rare indeed. As for this issue of is my job to dps I find its being forced thats why every time healers post on here to the contrary its often put down. Even if some dont see it. As for my comments coming across as toxic, its just the truth as I see it. And I really dont like healer dps being forced or expected the word ' you' is a generalization not to be taken personally. But Ive seen alot more toxicity from others too on the subject

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Originally Posted by Feyona

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You are conflating two different expectations. No one should go into any pug group expecting optimal DPS. If it happens, count yourself lucky. There is, however, a difference between consistency and sloppiness. If you're struggling to clear the fight, had to explain mechanics repeated or certain just keep on dying, then you're not farming. Some groups will push through anyway, others will not. It's you who has to expect that because the community will not change.

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Originally Posted by Blazinhart

People who never played as a Healer, or think healer should "make up" for the incompetence of dps, have no Right to say What healers should ir shouldn't do.

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No one here is arguing that healer's job is to make up for the incompetence of DPS, that it's their responsibility, no one.

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Originally Posted by Pireco

So basically, healers should play 110% their potential always to speed the fight , anything less is unaceptable, while dps are expected to play 70-80% and thats okay, anything more its "player skill", interesting.

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Also, no one is arguing that healers should be expected to contribute more efficiently than DPS.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then it kind of proves whst Im trying to say as both healers dps full on at first . What was lacking was the dps's dps but healers sort of get the blame as pressured to dps and failng healing as a result.

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No it doesn't. You're misunderstanding the situation (possibly on purpose). You can't argue that the DPS there is only the DDs responsibility: it's the responsibility of each party member, including the healers (and no, healers aren't more responsible for it, they're simply as responsible as everyone else).

The case discussed was Zurvan's first phase during which healers either contribute to DPS or do nothing (useful) at all, since it's not required to cast a single heal in this timed phase. If the group's goal is to skip Soar, it means they'll have to take Zurvan below 75% HP during the first phase (or something like this, it's been a while since I did this). Now if your group has 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DDs, you can't say this is only the responsibility of the last 4, since that would be impossible. Again, if you're saying it's the responsibility of DDs and tanks, you would be placing unrealistic expectations to your other party members while expecting absolutely nothing at all from your two healers (since 0 healing is required in this phase, and you aren't expecting them to contribute to DPS either), and how could you justify that?

Instead, it's the responsibility of each party member to pull their weight. Instead of asking DDs (and tanks) to contribute 100% optimally and healers 0%, why not ask everyone to aim for 70% optimal play (using these numbers for argument's sake, have not checked Zurvan logs or DPS requirements), isn't that more fair? Asking healers to contribute to DPS does not mean others will get a free ride, since DDs are still expected to contribute - and with the same efficiency than the healers, so the expectations are actually placed at same level for everyone.

Just to expand on what Taika is saying here.

Two regens and a fairy is all it takes to heal the entire first phase, also note that one of those is just before the pull and this is with a tank in DPS stance as well.

If you aren't doing some DPS here, you are literally dead weight and a detriment to your team at this point.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You wont see my logs cos they arnt posted in my static. Thank goodness cos Im kind of sick of logs being used to pull people to bits.

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God forbid people demonstrate that they have the slightest idea what they are going on about eh? This thread would be a lot more useful (and like a fraction of the length) if you'd grow a backbone at some point. =(

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Originally Posted by Taika

No one here is arguing that healer's job is to make up for the incompetence of DPS, that it's their responsibility, no one.



No it doesn't. You're misunderstanding the situation (possibly on purpose). You can't argue that the DPS there is only the DDs responsibility: it's the responsibility of each party member, including the healers (and no, healers aren't more responsible for it, they're simply as responsible as everyone else).

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I read all of your post and do not understand if your proposing that I disagree with you. There are normally 2 heals and one tank, in zurvan farms the healers dps full on at the start and if we dont skip soar then it is the dps's dps that is lacking. I will add here that your possibly wrong though because my static has two tanks and 2 healer and the dps is not super high and we skipped soar regularly. So that proves that my statement is even more accurate than some of yours. What Im actually saying is the opposite as its the dps putting pressure on healers and blaming them if they fail to pull off enough dps as well as heal. In which case they are not fulfilling their responsibility for the team, If they arnt dpsing enough in the first place

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Just to expand on what Taika is saying here.

Two regens and a fairy is all it takes to heal the entire first phase, also note that one of those is just before the pull and this is with a tank in DPS stance as well.

If you aren't doing some DPS here, you are literally dead weight and a detriment to your team at this point.



God forbid people demonstrate that they have the slightest idea what they are going on about eh? This thread would be a lot more useful (and like a fraction of the length) if you'd grow a backbone at some point. =(

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I will take ithis post as an assumption that I dont know what Im talking about? So in that case what content or aspects of the game dont I know anything about? As Ive been subscribed for two years and been in every content of the game. What is this exclusive knowledge that only you know anything about? Also what do you mean I need a backbone? Ive already stated the difference between constructive citicism and the willful destruction of a person's confidence. Yes we all need to improve ourselves that is the main aim of the game. Some dont really want to be put under extreme pressure and avoid hard core values like that as they really just want to enjoy the game. Most people I feel will improve by themselves without needing to be bullied with parsers. Im fighting my corner , it seems just to be allowed that right. If I use a metaphor its like being set on by a pack of wolves in here but I think in some respects wolves are better cos they accept other people just how they are. With less judgement

It seems this thread just went exponential entropy... again.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You are conflating two different expectations. No one should go into any pug group expecting optimal DPS. If it happens, count yourself lucky. There is, however, a difference between consistency and sloppiness.

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Maybe your right but its really not black and white like that. In the farms I go in Everyone knows the tacts and we ask for no bonus, its usually the mechanics people mess up on which is something that can happen at any time, As well as the healer being blamed for not dpsing enough. but I wasn't refering to this in my original statement I was refering to the fact that sub par dps are expecting healers to carry them sufficiently to skip soar which dps should be able to acheive by themselves even with 70% of their potential. I hope that I get that point across sufficiently without having to explain it again.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I was refering to the fact that sub par dps are expecting healers to carry them sufficiently to skip soar which dps should be able to acheive by themselves even with 70% of their potential. I hope that I get that point across sufficiently without having to explain it again.

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I think the only person who has said that is you actually. The situation isn't you aiding sub-par DPS, the situation is that everyone should be DPS to their fullest in that first phase because it is a massive DPS gap (remember those? we talked about them, and you said that you struggled to identify them). There is no outgoing damage unless someone messes up, and DPSing hard enough nets you a phase skip. EVERYONE should have DPS on full.

Even if it were the case that DPS was lacking and the party couldn't skip soar, the sheer refusal to DPS as a healer, given the above statement is not valid in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I will add here that your possibly wrong though because my static has two tanks and 2 healer and the dps is not super high and we skipped soar regularly. So that proves that my statement is even more accurate than some of yours.

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What statement of yours does this make accurate? Or what statement of mine does it make somehow inaccurate? If you actually read my post I was in fact discussing an example group with 2 tanks and 2 healers. Please try to explain what you mean more precisely, because your posts are not making much sense as they are now.

Edit: I didn't manage to find the group DPS requirement number for skipping Soar by fast googling, but on a YouTube video where the group barely managed to skip it, getting the boss to 80% in 1st phase, their group DPS was a bit over 17500 in first phase.

If you assume two 0 DPS healers and make that the responsibility of DDs and tanks alone, and assume each tank would do 75% of the DPS of a DD, you would be asking for all of your four DDs to do at least 3182 DPS each, and both your tanks to do at least 2386 DPS each. All I can say is, good luck with justifying that while saying it's completely alright for the two healers in the same group to do absolutely nothing at all. :D

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Originally Posted by Feyona

sub par dps are expecting healers to carry them sufficiently to skip soar which dps should be able to acheive by themselves even with 70% of their potential

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Based on these numbers, are you really calling a 3k DPS DD "sup-bar" while at the same time saying it's not ok to ask for healers to contribute in DPS at all? Are you really that blind to your own double standards?