Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I went by an early HW calculation, if I have enough crit gear I might try some tests for myself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mage_formulae/

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I just did some spitball stuff with 354 crit vs 888, and the damage formula seems to be relatively close, and redo'ing with math it appears a sliding stat weight for crit.

Using their figure for crit hit chance (high/low damage is easy to get, not crit chance), what I come up with is with +0 Crit, you'll need about +91 to get a 1% boost to damage. At around +800 crit, you'll get that 1% boost from about +60 crit.

These figures would hold true no matter what your INT or WD are, same as Spell Speed.

So bracelet and necklace crafted are definetly better than i240 gear right ?

i think i'll go for that gear : http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/TAHG

And also crafted gloves are better from what i have seen

Do we even know those stat weights are legit yet? I think it's too early to say whether or not crafted pieces are better than i240 when our only source for stat weights are from a Reddit comment with nothing to back it up.

I'm not saying that person is wrong, but they haven't posted anything that proves those stat weights are real either.

if we assume crit is better than det i wouldnt go for gloves since its ss det.

It may be ss and det but you can pentmeld them i believe, the midan gloves and lore gloves both do not have any ss at all if i recall.
Don't quote me on it as i just glanced over them one day.
We are all assuming crit is better but remember 2.x det was actually of better value. (yes i know some may argue this)
I really do not know were stat weights are anymore so much has changed, lol
For now i will get some crafted, midan and lore gear.

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Originally Posted by smallbeach

if we assume crit is better than det i wouldnt go for gloves since its ss det.

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Also if you're going by those stat weights, the crafted gloves are only better if you can afford to lose 69 Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Maero

It may be ss and det but you can pentmeld them i believe, the midan gloves and lore gloves both do not have any ss at all if i recall.
Don't quote me on it as i just glanced over them one day.
We are all assuming crit is better but remember 2.x det was actually of better value. (yes i know some may argue this)
I really do not know were stat weights are anymore so much has changed, lol
For now i will get some crafted, midan and lore gear.

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Don't forget you can meld 24 Spell Speed on pieces without any.

I took quick a look at some combinations of pentamelded crafted gear with V materia and i240 gear and I haven't been able to come up with any set above 600 acc that can beat an i240 set with at least 600 acc with the stat weights on Ariyala. If the stat weights are correct, then i220 pentamelded gear is really good (even better than some i230/i240 pieces) if you don't have BiS i240 pieces and certain crafted pieces might be more DPS if you have excess accuracy, but we already knew that.

Aye, now if only SE would allow other ways to get the V Materia other then Die Dumb, lol

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Originally Posted by Lavitz_

Do we even know those stat weights are legit yet? I think it's too early to say whether or not crafted pieces are better than i240 when our only source for stat weights are from a Reddit comment with nothing to back it up.

I'm not saying that person is wrong, but they haven't posted anything that proves those stat weights are real either.

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Those stat weights are wrong, the numbers are more along the lines of:
DET - 0.16 INT
CHR - 0.15-0.20 INT (weight increases with higher CHR)
SpS - 0.19-0.21 INT (weight increases with higher SpS)
That's ignoring rotation and CDs.

SpS gets some bonus from steps at certain values, and the hard to put a number on things like making it easier to keep Enochian up. There's also big steps for SpS, like getting so ungodly much that your AoE rotation goes from 15 seconds to 12 seconds, or being able to keep more thunder in your rotation. But those things don't double the value of it.

I found this guide and it's pretty useful https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...C8EiyGLI/edit#

Anyone have any suggestions with this opener.

Sharp-Fire 1-Eno-Ley-Fire 3 proc-Raging-Pot-Fire 4x3-Fire 1-Fire 4-SwiftCast-Flare-Convert-Fire 4-(Fire3 Proc)-Blizz3-Thunder1-Blizz4

This opener was made for people who don't play as lalafell and not having the piety party buff. I'm rolling with Elezen Duskwight if anyone knows a more updated opener or having any tweaks for my current opener hat will help a lot

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Those stat weights are wrong, the numbers are more along the lines of:
DET - 0.16 INT
CHR - 0.15-0.20 INT (weight increases with higher CHR)
SpS - 0.19-0.21 INT (weight increases with higher SpS)
That's ignoring rotation and CDs.

SpS gets some bonus from steps at certain values, and the hard to put a number on things like making it easier to keep Enochian up. There's also big steps for SpS, like getting so ungodly much that your AoE rotation goes from 15 seconds to 12 seconds, or being able to keep more thunder in your rotation. But those things don't double the value of it.

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Source? Datapoints?

You do know that stat weights are an averaged value of every possible gearset combination at a given i-level.

Stat values (which is what I think you mean) change based on what you already have. You can say "How much Int is 1 spellspeed worth when i've got X Weapon Damage, Y, Int, Z Crit, A det and B spellspeed" using C rotation. But you can't discount any one of those and expect things to be accurate.

And you certainly can't ignore rotation and cooldowns to give a value. Spellspeed is valued higher because of rotation value - you can fit more procs into your rotation, you can also do some nice stuff depending on your cooldowns and group composition. The utility of the stat is far greater than Crit and det because it also makes mechanics easier.

The best way to compare stats is to have a damage calculator that you input your stats into, and you get a perfect world averaged out for normal crit amount of DPS for a given fight length. But we don't have that, at least publicly. There is this though: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ealers/d0ng9m7 But i've not seen the simulation to see if its worth it.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

The utility of the stat [Spell Speed] is far greater than Crit and det because it also makes mechanics easier.

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Marginally.
In terms of when you can move without interrupting a spell, the difference between a 2.3s cast and a 2.0s cast is still only about 0.06s, far below the threshold of human reaction times.

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Originally Posted by Dusk278

Anyone have any suggestions with this opener.

Sharp-Fire 1-Eno-Ley-Fire 3 proc-Raging-Pot-Fire 4x3-Fire 1-Fire 4-SwiftCast-Flare-Convert-Fire 4-(Fire3 Proc)-Blizz3-Thunder1-Blizz4

This opener was made for people who don't play as lalafell and not having the piety party buff. I'm rolling with Elezen Duskwight if anyone knows a more updated opener or having any tweaks for my current opener hat will help a lot

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That's the normal Flare opener, except you lose the chance to do a "free" F4 instead of Flare because you do F4x3 F1 instead of F4x2 F1, if you get a FS proc. Should just do F4 - F4 - F4 - F1 - Swift - F4 - Convert - F4 - F4 if you want to stick with that.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

snip

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Source is FFXIV, 3.2x
Data points are various, with low/mid/high single variable

Your definition of stat weights appears leave spell speed variable by person, fight, party members, and probably other things that don't immediately come to mind. The numbers I put were the marginal dps increase to single spell damage for 1 of each of the stats weighted against the marginal dps increase to single spell damage for 1 INT.

To repeat what you quoted, then reworded to make it sound like I ignored it:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

SpS gets some bonus from steps at certain values, and the hard to put a number on things like making it easier to keep Enochian up. There's also big steps for SpS, like getting so ungodly much that your AoE rotation goes from 15 seconds to 12 seconds, or being able to keep more thunder in your rotation. But those things don't double the value of it.

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Lavitz : its not the subject but i saw your a5s parse and you're doing 100 more than me without a bard u_u

did you have a 230/40 weapon ? if no do u have any tips for that fight ?



also what do u think of this JAP blm opener ? http://www.fflogs.com/reports/ZXtmw8...&view=timeline

this team has the best timer on a5s

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Source is FFXIV, 3.2x
Data points are various, with low/mid/high single variable

Your definition of stat weights appears leave spell speed variable by person, fight, party members, and probably other things that don't immediately come to mind. The numbers I put were the marginal dps increase to single spell damage for 1 of each of the stats weighted against the marginal dps increase to single spell damage for 1 INT.

To repeat what you quoted, then reworded to make it sound like I ignored it:

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I never reworded anything of what I quoted from you. And of course spellspeed is variable by party members - just like Fey Glow used to alter the weight of spellspeed back in 2.x.

I'd still like to see a source of your datapoints. Do you have a spreadsheet with your raw data and damage formula calculations?

Stat weights are not accurate if you ignore rotation. They have always been variable dependent on fight and rotation, and usually things that are "meta" like Foe's (Bard) and Fey Glow (from 2.x) are assumed. Now, with MCH's place in the meta, foe's shouldn't be assumed and weights should be separate to be accurate. But it always assumes optimal rotation and optimal play.

Your "weights" are far too simplistic and honestly until they are backed up with datapoints and a data formula, they are as valid as the weights I linked to earlier - because none have corroborating evidence.

Thanks I will try that out once I get the chance today

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Your "weights" are far too simplistic and honestly until they are backed up with datapoints and a data formula, they are as valid as the weights I linked to earlier - because none have corroborating evidence.

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It is that simple for WD, INT, Det, and Crit. Changing any of them does not have any affect on your rotation, and your rotation doesn't change their weights in any way.

I could post a clutter of numbers; my data points aren't in any wonderfully organized and/or labeled manner. It was mostly min/max non-crit with fixed Det values and variable INT, then again reversed to find the trendlines. Crit hit was just min/max crit hit damage vs non-crit damage, and assumption that +1% crit damage correlated to +1% crit hit chance. Min/0.95 was compared to max/1.05 to gauge precision, and determine the base value.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

You do know that stat weights are an averaged value of every possible gearset combination at a given i-level.

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It can be done that way, but the tradition that's been built up over the past couple years is that stat weights are relative to one set only (BiS).

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It is that simple for WD, INT, Det, and Crit. Changing any of them does not have any affect on your rotation, and your rotation doesn't change their weights in any way.

I could post a clutter of numbers; my data points aren't in any wonderfully organized and/or labeled manner. It was mostly min/max non-crit with fixed Det values and variable INT, then again reversed to find the trendlines. Crit hit was just min/max crit hit damage vs non-crit damage, and assumption that +1% crit damage correlated to +1% crit hit chance. Min/0.95 was compared to max/1.05 to gauge precision, and determine the base value.

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Your rotation does change based on getting more spellspeed.
Furthermore, any increase in one stat increases the value of another. Have a higher crit chance? Spellspeed is valued better because more attacks = more crits. Have more attack power (int)? Then all of your secondaries get better.

Every single stat is linked, and it isn't anywhere near as simple as what you are saying.

If your data points aren't organised or labeled and you refuse to post them, then your stat weights have absolutely no meaning if you can't prove it.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It can be done that way, but the tradition that's been built up over the past couple years is that stat weights are relative to one set only (BiS).

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Those are stat values, not stat weights. I agree that stat values for BiS is more accurate, and comparing values for gearsets is more accurate. On top of that, there isn't any concrete accuracy amounts out there (just approximations) as far as I know, so you can't have stat weights out when you don't know the BiS.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Spellspeed is valued better because more attacks = more crits.

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More attacks = more attacks.
To say "more attacks = more crits" is to say that x% of (y + 1) is greater than x% of y.
Crit doesn't care what your spell speed is.

tbh i dobt understamd math like "0.715..... Bla bla" just say the stat number and im good.
Atm i got 648 crit and 457 det.
And ss at 870.
Which stat should i upgrade more?

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Originally Posted by Rongway

More attacks = more attacks.
To say "more attacks = more crits" is to say that x% of (y + 1) is greater than x% of y.
Crit doesn't care what your spell speed is.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4IdTQtICdo

I suggest you give this a watch. A higher amount of crit will give increased value to other stats, including spellspeed.

what he means is that more crit is more valuable on a good geared blm than on a bad geared one

for exmple blm 1 has : 1200 spell speed - 500 crit - 500 det
blm 2 has : 700 spellspeed - 500 crit - 500 det


adding 200crit will be much more stronger on the first blm, same goes for +200 det or +200 spellspeed, so it actualy doesnt really matter to consider other stats



Also i found a new opener, anyone can tell me if its better than classic sharp fire ?
this opener has 6 fire4, 1fire 1 F3 and 1 flare under RS, + 6F4 and flare underxpotion with a selene buff

sharp - b3 - enochian - leylines - F3 - RS - Fire - Xpot - F4 - F4 - F4 - F3proc - F3 - F3 - F3 - swift cast flare - transpose - thunder - B4 - F3 - F4 * 4 (you can do 4 f4 because F3 cast is slow and u get real 12sec of astral fire)

its a realy static opener, you get slow F3 under leylines with 1000+ spellspeed which is good, a problem is that u cannot thunder after the 4* F4 in second rotation cause B3 mana cost is getting higher after u start casting it
But with selene, u get everything under raging strike and you miss only flare under potion, you also get more value out of litany but not from trickattack

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Those are stat values, not stat weights. I agree that stat values for BiS is more accurate, and comparing values for gearsets is more accurate. On top of that, there isn't any concrete accuracy amounts out there (just approximations) as far as I know, so you can't have stat weights out when you don't know the BiS.

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Use what nomenclature you must, but I am unaware of anyone drawing this distinction before with that exact terminology in this game's theorycrafting; cf. Puro's rant, T0rin explains weights. I don't recall anyone giving out any widely accepted weights using an artificial baseline since EMX. People have, however, done so when true BiS wasn't clear, and even with inaccurate models and it didn't hurt much (e.g. skill speed was known to be pretty bad on physical DPS, then we re-checked it, turned out it was even worse).

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Originally Posted by smallbeach

also what do u think of this JAP blm opener ? http://www.fflogs.com/reports/ZXtmw8...&view=timeline

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Been "testing" this opener for about a week or 2 now and my gutfeeling says that as soon as you get 1 thunder proc under raging it becomes better than all the others. However, when you get a 2nd thunder proc (which you'll be using in umbral) I'm pretty sure it simply blows everything else out of the water.

If you consider that the average probability of a hardcasted thunder 3 proccing once is 57%, then it might actually be considered to be worth the "risk", since in the long run, you'll end up with a "better" opener "most of the time".

If you wonder why Thunder 3 has a 57% chance of proccing once: 100*(1-0.9^8)

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4IdTQtICdo

I suggest you give this a watch. A higher amount of crit will give increased value to other stats, including spellspeed.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Your rotation does change based on getting more spellspeed.
Furthermore, any increase in one stat increases the value of another. Have a higher crit chance? Spellspeed is valued better because more attacks = more crits. Have more attack power (int)? Then all of your secondaries get better.

Every single stat is linked, and it isn't anywhere near as simple as what you are saying.

Those are stat values, not stat weights. I agree that stat values for BiS is more accurate, and comparing values for gearsets is more accurate. On top of that, there isn't any concrete accuracy amounts out there (just approximations) as far as I know, so you can't have stat weights out when you don't know the BiS.

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Wat. About that.



1) The only interactions you see of other stats affecting everything else are:

AP/MP: Affects all secondaries
WD/MD: Insane amounts (I'm talking +200 MD/WD) affect the value of SS on Jobs that use Autos (So Physical Jobs)

And that's it. Every other stat is affected by itself.

2) That video was done using EMX's old Damage Formula where DET was an additive function of STR and WD, which Sunny Hirose found to be incorrect, Puros SS formula which was half broken and Valkys Crit Formula where 2 years later, again, Sunny Hirose found to be completely off target.

I'd take everything in that Video with a Grain of Salt.

3) Where are you getting More Attacks = More Crits? Wat.

More crits in the same time frame? Maybe. But whether you do 30 GCDs in a minute, or 60 GCDs in a minute, if you have a 25% Crit Chance, 25% of your total skills will be Crits and no matter what, 25% of your damage will always be multiplied by the same... multiplier.

4) You can get stat-weights without the need of accuracy requirements, as everything is proportionate to 1 point of AP/MP. You can't find BiS gear without stat-weights. In fact, stat-weights are never 100% accurate. The only accurate values you can get are Stat Equivalence values, which is what the JPs do.

You're confusing a lot of things.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

tbh i dobt understamd math like "0.715..... Bla bla" just say the stat number and im good.
Atm i got 648 crit and 457 det.
And ss at 870.
Which stat should i upgrade more?

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You are rather low in spell speed, 1000+ is best

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Originally Posted by jmdude

I found this guide and it's pretty useful https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...C8EiyGLI/edit#

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Thanks for promoting this. I'm trying to make it available to everyone. Unfortunately, it just gets burried in the sebreddit and a lot of ppl don't know it's out there yet.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

3) Where are you getting More Attacks = More Crits? Wat.

More crits in the same time frame? Maybe. But whether you do 30 GCDs in a minute, or 60 GCDs in a minute, if you have a 25% Crit Chance, 25% of your total skills will be Crits and no matter what, 25% of your damage will always be multiplied by the same... multiplier.

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Well, it's technically true, the best kind of true.

Tldr I just made 50 and need help with the rotation and I didn't see it in the OP. Thanks.

Opener: F3 - RS - F1 until empty - Swift Flare (needs 273? mana at 50 and slowly raises as you go up in levels) - Convert F1 - B3 - T1/B1 - normal
Normal: F3 - F1x5 - B3 - B1/T1 depending on mob health - repeat. Use procs when available.

That's pretty much it. Not 100% sure about the min Flare cost anymore. At some point above 50 you'll have to drop to F1x4, if you don't want to wait for mana ticks to cast fillers in ice.

Awesome, thanks.

I know this is likely answered somewhere in the many pages of this thread, but I just couldn't see it!

I went and got the i230 lore chest this week and then had a look at the crafted i220 piece (wish I looked first now!) Is it better than the lore chest? Having the extra SS and Crit has to be better doesn't it? Using the crafted would put me just under 600 acc, but I haven't started savage yet so that is not an issue. It would however boost my current SS to 1064 and I was thinking I could then equip my Anima weapon to still have high SS but also boost my crit further.. Thoughts?

The two pieces I am talking about are:
Lore
Crafted

Thanks!

The 220 chest should be more DPS than the 230 chest.
121 INT +77 Det = ROUGHLY badmath estimation 135 INT
111 INT +100 SS = ROUGHLY badmath estimation 151 INT
Then you also got crit which further boosts your DPS AND you can meld 5 materias into it and seeing how easy it is to obtain IV materia might as well meld all grade IV's into the slots. In your situation I'd suggest Accuracy melds though. If you go with only grade IV materia you get 45 Accuracy out of it, which isn't so bad.

Now this is all calculated using bad math. I just used the stat weights and multiplicated them by the amount of substat the gear pieces had. Not sure if that's any right lol. (I also rounded up the numbers because I'm too lazy to get a calculator out)
I myself will keep the 220 chest until I get the Midan Coat of casting.

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Originally Posted by Cherub

The 220 chest should be more DPS than the 230 chest.
121 INT +77 Det = ROUGHLY badmath estimation 135 INT
111 INT +100 SS = ROUGHLY badmath estimation 151 INT
Then you also got crit which further boosts your DPS AND you can meld 5 materias into it and seeing how easy it is to obtain IV materia might as well meld all grade IV's into the slots. In your situation I'd suggest Accuracy melds though. If you go with only grade IV materia you get 45 Accuracy out of it, which isn't so bad.

Now this is all calculated using bad math. I just used the stat weights and multiplicated them by the amount of substat the gear pieces had. Not sure if that's any right lol. (I also rounded up the numbers because I'm too lazy to get a calculator out)
I myself will keep the 220 chest until I get the Midan Coat of casting.

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Are you going with the 1 SS ~= 0.4 INT? No one has proven that to be right, and it sounds waaaaay too much to my ears.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Are you going with the 1 SS ~= 0.4 INT? No one has proven that to be right, and it sounds waaaaay too much to my ears.

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Yeah it will be cool to see the math behind that, but at current values the most I could see SPD being worth is ~0.230-0.250 with CRT slowly gaining on it after +700 (1054)

It doesn't matter, even if you weigh every stat at 0.2 (which is obviously not true), the crafted piece will have higher value, even without melds.

Do you mean the crafted chest Cherub? It seems way better so i finally grabbed it the other day
Plan on adding about 3 materia for crit and perhaps some determination.
My acc is around 588 so not sure if i should meld a bit of acc as well