Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No, there should NOT be 2 cues.

Look again, and I don't know how to make this more clear:

Join in Progress IS NOT, a speed to the end/get to skip a boss or 2 card. It was NEVER intended to used for such purposes or intended to be a 'skip' button. It was a 'sure, I don't mind helping' button. It was actually intended to help out groups who got stuck or abandoned. Therefore, there should NOT be 2 cues. Because the reality is you should always plan on starting from the beginning of any Duty you join. That is how each dungeon was intended to be played. So no, there should not be 2 cues because the whole point of 'Join In Progress', which is to HELP others, is lost then.

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Originally Posted by Tridus1x

They need to separate the in progress queue in order to fix the problem. Any other suggestion is ignorant and childish and spawned out of pure entitlement. That 3 day ban? Ha! What a joke. The emotions of a child crying when they don't get their way.

News flash- That 3 day ban means that nobody gets the tank that wanted to queue, so you are hurting other players experience in order to cater to your own. Pathetic OP.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Best solution, and imo easiest to implement is to not show the progress of the dungeon whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Don't separate the queues, because that'll just make queue times terrible for everyone.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

There are no downsides. Every game I've ever played with an instance matching system did this. You could flag yourself as "able to join an in-progress dungeon," but it would never tell you if it was new or half-completed. You wouldn't find that out until you got in.

Splitting the queues apart completely? No. That just encourages toxic, greed-driven behavior. These people aren't queue fishing to help people finish runs. They just want an easy 50 myth tomes or to snipe that last boss's drop.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This will lead to a situation where "regular people" will feel that they are wasting time going through the dungeon while other people are getting profit over their efforts, and so they will just join the "In-progress fishing club" like everyone else.

Problem is: if nobody (or few people) want to start a fresh dungeon anymore, there will be no (or very few) parties "in-progress" to join, making you (in-progress queue people) wait forever. Especially for a DPS slot. Thus, no point doing this.

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There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

I think they should separate them . It takes forever to get a in progress group , im sick of having to withdraw from ones that aren't in progress.

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Thank you for the voice of reason.

I am sick and tired of people saying "make in-progress separate' as a solution to the problem.

Things will only get WORSE. People will not join at the beginning thus making groups that start at the beginning rare as all hell. Its a catch 22.

Leave a loophole and only the really unscrupulous people will make use of it. Make it a legit thing and MORE people will do it.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.
Thank you for the voice of reason.

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What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

Griefers will be griefers, and deliberately afking/logging out is douche behavior that deserves ban time. In progress dungeons is not for the tanks convenience, it is to help the unfortunately stranded groups.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Thank you for the voice of reason.

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Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world. :)

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

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Originally Posted by Archona

Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world. :)

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I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:

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Originally Posted by Archona

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

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We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

When someone checks Join in Progress, it should mean they are willing to join a group in progress, not they are looking to join a group in progress. Once you establish that, don't reveal whether a group is starting fresh or in progress until you actually get into the dungeon. If you wanna quit then, great, 30 minute timer. Currently the system encourages people to look for groups in progress. You can't really expect people to not wanna do half a dungeon when their goal is just the myth or drop at the end when the game makes it easy to have that mentality.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:



We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

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Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Traek

What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

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I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS, which would be incredibly unfair). Therefore, we need MORE incentives (MORE than allowing for fishing) to solve this problem.

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, we need more people to stop playing DPS and start playing tanks and healers.

Stopping queue fishing is just patching up a symptom of a greater problem, which is role imbalance. We need more incentives for tanks and healers, not less.

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Originally Posted by Archona

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

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Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

To be honest it wouldn't be that bad to have blind queues. But you have to make up for that lost incentive in some other way. We can solve the frustrating problem of queue fishers and cancelled queues, but if tanks and healers simply aren't queuing anymore, we need to encourage them. Your idea of satchel rewards would likely work, kind of with the duty roulette 'in-demand' role, but something more substantial besides a few hundred gil.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.

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Good.
Nobody wants to play a MMO surrounded by selfish people who just want to skip the content and eat another piece of their fast-food MMO.
They can go away.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

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No, the ONLY reason there is a tank/healer slot open for your 2/3 progress queue in the first place is typically because after a wipe or something stupid happened...something that might not have even been the fault of a remaining party member, the Tank/healer left them. After 1 mistake. Or after entering and seeing 'someone is new' or the have the wrong 'type' of DD for that dungeon etc.

Again, the DF is get this, NOT the only way to queue up for content. You can form your own parties to your own expectations....but even this doesn't happen as much anymore because that takes tanks and healers willing to start>finish an instance, and since as you say, they get rewarded for skipping most of the dungeon, less and less tanks/healers are even willing to party up with their own friends/FC's to do this content.


What you really want is this:

1. Reward-spread stays the same in each instance (so best reward still at end)
2. You have queue options:
-Start at beginning
-2/3
-and maybe an 'I feel like helping someone, randomly assign me where most needed'

because that's how you are treating it. So how about this. If tanks and healers can continue to abuse 'Join in Progress' than from now on, so can everyone else. EVERYONE can cue for 2/3 of every dungeon. It's just a checkbox.
Oh but wait...that will now make the DF lines long for the 'skippers' and that isn't cool?

That's basically what happens if you separate the queues...even if it isn't listed that way, and only as 'Fresh' and 'In progress' by dividing up the players, at MOST you only have half as many people to party with (because now the only people who can unlock the instance are those selecting 'start', and those waiting in the 'in-progress queue will only be able to enter if one of the starters leave...So now, you have less people to select from to actually start and unlock the Duty but MORE people waiting for someone to rage quit so everyone will have longer queue times (especially, and most amusingly for the 'Join in Progress' folk).

Not only that, the reason Tanks and Healers can even abuse this feature currently is because their counterparts who DID queue at the duty entrance, did most of the dungeon and then for whatever reason (probably a modest party mistake...one mistake), got all princessy and left, not concerned about their 30 min lockout. Why? because they can queue instantly after their 30 minutes is up...many times for an in progress party and so they can save time/spend the same amount of time and still 'punish noobs' or 'not have to deal with stupidity'

You understand that the only way and 'In-progress' entrance window can pop is because some group of 4 or 8 entered that instance from the start right? And without enough people reliably and consistantly doing that, the whole 'join in progress' feature wouldn't even work? So separating out the queues not only hurts those wishing to do a full run, but it hurts the 'skippers' too. So those who DO want to be able to join 'in-progress' groups actually benefit more from the 'blind entry' plan over the 'separate queues plan'. Because if it's blind, sure people might leave when it's not 'the spot they wanted to queue at'....but them leaving=your opening. Separating the queues just makes the 'In-progress' function broken and useless. (Because either too many people will use it=loooooong queue times or no one will=stranded parties)