Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

It’s also interesting that she did another video on just the job design in general just recently as well.

Just way too much oversimplification going with the game in general.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

It’s also interesting that she did another video on just the job design in general just recently as well.

Just way too much oversimplification going with the game in general.

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Sometimes I wonder whether or not the oversimplification is just that, or if it's actually just thoughtlessness. After all, despite claiming simplification, we do have an overabundance of buttons to press, at least regarding healers. It kinda just feels like we're being given things (actions) so that we "keep quiet," rather than we're being given tools that would serve a particular purpose.

A lot of the new heal buttons could have easily been a trait upgrade instead of an entire new button. I feel like each healer could be fine with just 6 heal buttons with the way this game is going. For me personally, AST has been the only healer for awhile to get interesting heal abilities… but still a good chunk of them could be combined into one if they want to cut down.

All you healers are wrong. Yoshi P has spoken. Stop criticizing our flawless game. Just because you think healing is boring doesn't mean it is easy for every one else. Go do ultimate.

Hard does not = fun, in this case healing may be hard for others but it can still be boring as all sin. I find healing easy, even on high tier things like savage its about learning WHEN to heal, and once you learn that it morphs into the 1 button spam until you need to pop whatever heal or cd.

FFXIV has the perfect setup to fully embrace the Offensive support gameplay where sustain healing is not a thing and instead the gameplay hinges on properly balancing healing with dealing damage. But the relationship between these two aspects of healer kits is barely develloped. Only two healers truly have some sort of system that offer some sort of relationship between the two and they are both rather unsatisfying: WHM's lillies and SGE Addersgall.

WHM, using lillies gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Glare and healing using your oGCD abilities. WHM don't want to interact with their lilies at all as they are punished for it.

SGE, using your single target heal, gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Dosis and healing using your plentiful oGCD abilities. That being said, at least Toxicon II is DPS neutral, something WHM can't say about Afflatus Misery.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

That being said, at least Toxicon II is DPS neutral, something WHM can't say about Afflatus Misery.

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At least until you run out of addersting stacks from downtime e. diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

FFXIV has the perfect setup to fully embrace the Offensive support gameplay where sustain healing is not a thing and instead the gameplay hinges on properly balancing healing with dealing damage. But the relationship between these two aspects of healer kits is barely develloped. Only two healers truly have some sort of system that offer some sort of relationship between the two and they are both rather unsatisfying: WHM's lillies and SGE Addersgall.

WHM, using lillies gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Glare and healing using your oGCD abilities. WHM don't want to interact with their lilies at all as they are punished for it.

SGE, using your single target heal, gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Dosis and healing using your plentiful oGCD abilities. That being said, at least Toxicon II is DPS neutral, something WHM can't say about Afflatus Misery.

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Toxicon II is not DPS neutral in most situations. It takes one GCD to place the shield and another to use toxicon. Resulting in it dealing the equivalent of half of Dosis's potency, and only at level 82 and higher (below that it deals even less due to having less potency than dosis). It's also a loss in AOE following the same principles. The only way it could be considered DPS neutral is if those stacks were gained from downtime, but that's clearly not what the devs intended.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

FFXIV has the perfect setup to fully embrace the Offensive support gameplay where sustain healing is not a thing and instead the gameplay hinges on properly balancing healing with dealing damage. But the relationship between these two aspects of healer kits is barely develloped. Only two healers truly have some sort of system that offer some sort of relationship between the two and they are both rather unsatisfying: WHM's lillies and SGE Addersgall.

WHM, using lillies gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Glare and healing using your oGCD abilities. WHM don't want to interact with their lilies at all as they are punished for it.

SGE, using your single target heal, gives you access to a big flashy attack. Unfortunately said ability results in a DPS loss over your regular nuke, so unless you're in a very specific movement heavy situation you're better of spamming your Dosis and healing using your plentiful oGCD abilities. That being said, at least Toxicon II is DPS neutral, something WHM can't say about Afflatus Misery.

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To be fair, AST kiiiind of has a different role as a party buffer, and SCH to a much lesser extent. They've just been nerfed to hell on those fronts. I wouldn't mind a healer or two having more of a support role as long as they felt like they had enough meaningful actions to do outside of shielding/healing.

Healers used to be designed that way up until Stormblood… somehow.. the players that cried about fishing for balance on AST … translated into the nonsense we have now…

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Healers used to be designed that way up until Stormblood… somehow.. the players that cried about fishing for balance on AST … translated into the nonsense we have now…

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I miss old Astrologian and its tarot card system. :(

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Healers used to be designed that way up until Stormblood… somehow.. the players that cried about fishing for balance on AST … translated into the nonsense we have now…

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I miss old Astrologian and its tarot card system. :(

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Not to mention the days when AST's job quests actually made sense. A friend of mine had to fill me in on what removed abilities they were even referring to.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I miss old Astrologian and its tarot card system. :(

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Still asking for it to come back!

Old Ast's systems didn't work because of the way they have fights designed. All anyone wanted was Balance and some would literally click off an enhanced arrow.

I personally loved having a tank CD to give out but it was random and couldn't be used reliably, same with the other cards. Not to mention I think one of them was used to recover TP so with the removal of TP it was an easy choice for them.

Rework Ast cards or rework combat.

I think they failed in reworking the cards personally, they just made everything a balance and were done with it.

I get it though every single patch they have to go through and figure out every possible combination of card and how it would interact with everyone else.

Oh wait they didn't.

I feel the class could've been so much more fun and had much more identity if each card had its own cooldown and was simply a different skill.
Another Idea would be forcing a card rotation so it's no longer random but functions similar to bard's 'forced' song rotation. You have each card in a specific order with a skill that can choose between two preset of card orders and redraw being able to essentially skip a card in the order. One preset would have offensive cards in the front and the other defensive cards in the front.

Just me though.

I’ll just say I will never understand that mindset to “fish for balance” even with so many AST mains back then telling them they could clear raids easily by also using arrow and spear… but alas…

I will agree that AST keeping 6 cards that do the same thing is redundant. The cards really need to go back to their tarot, diverse ways that helped the role truly feel like it was aligned with the stars and making use of any star reading we got through them. Sigh…. There just has to be another way for AST to go back to that feeling. I appreciate their attempt to make AST interesting with the mini rework this expansion… but it was no where near enough..

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I’ll just say I will never understand that mindset to “fish for balance” even with so many AST mains back then telling them they could clear raids easily by also using arrow and spear… but alas…

I will agree that AST keeping 6 cards that do the same thing is redundant. The cards really need to go back to their tarot, diverse ways that helped the role truly feel like it was aligned with the stars and making use of any star reading we got through them. Sigh…. There just has to be another way for AST to go back to that feeling. I appreciate their attempt to make AST interesting with the mini rework this expansion… but it was no where near enough..

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You can clear every raid doing or not doing a lot of things.
You can clear a raid without using Kardia. You can clear a raid not using Kaiten. You can clear a raid partnering the healer. You can clear a raid giving Dragon Sight to the tank.
None of that changes anything about one simple fact: FFXIV is not designed for utility and dps sharing the same cooldown.

There are edge cases during prog when you use everything you have to survive a mechanic. GCD heals, channeling Impro, aoe Bole, Vercure, Titan Egi and so on. Anything to survive so the pull continues and you can practice later mechanics. Outside those fairly rare and usually short-lived cases it may be possible to play whatever you got but in the end it's simply less effective than going for Balance. SE made the mistake of putting all cards on the same cooldown and the moment you didn't absolutely need to scrape for every little bit of mitigation and heal anymore, the utility cards were a nice thought but inferior to Balance.
It's not the playerbase's fault that SE designed it like that. You can't blame the playerbase for wanting to contribute as if it's something bad.
Sure, you were able to clear without ever using Balance, let alone fish for it.
But what contributed more to a run? An aoe Balance or a for fun Bole?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the old cards. I like the idea of a versatile buff healer. And it could've worked with some changes but if they re-introduced the cards as they were right now, it'd be even less viable to not go for Balance than it was in the past.
Sometimes you got really, really lucky and drew just the right card to save someone. Yes, it felt great to give the newly raised and out of MP co heal an Ewer. It felt great to slap an Enhanced Bole on a squishy tank.
But the majority of the content and situations isn't made for RNG utility sharing a cooldown with dps buffs when the entire game is heavily focused on dps above all.
I would like for AST to get its identity of a versatile buff healer back. But not with 1:1 old cards.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I’ll just say I will never understand that mindset to “fish for balance” even with so many AST mains back then telling them they could clear raids easily by also using arrow and spear… but alas…

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I'll just say I will never understand that mindset to avoid "fishing for Freecure procs" even with so many WHM mains telling them they could clear raids easily by also using Cure and Cure II... but alas...

(Is it really that surprising players wanted to push the button that was useful to their team, instead of the useless flavor button?)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role (tank / dps) for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

Engagement shouldn't be either 0% or 100%. It shouldn't be either braindead easy in 95% of content or pull your hair out in the hardest thing the game offers.

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Um... the engaging part of savage is having to get people that can do raids for three nights a week (not two), and have the strength to boot people who suddenly turn around and say they can't attend three days even though you posted it and said it numerous times that we have to go to three days, and then end up with a casual static instead of what you envisioned, which ultimately leads to burn out because it takes too long to clear the content.

I don't know what it is with people but I'm basically forced to run this tier five days a week because of wishy washy people who don't have the interest or inclination to progress on their own.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

There are edge cases during prog when you use everything you have to survive a mechanic. GCD heals, channeling Impro, aoe Bole, Vercure, Titan Egi and so on. Anything to survive so the pull continues and you can practice later mechanics. Outside those fairly rare and usually short-lived cases it may be possible to play whatever you got but in the end it's simply less effective than going for Balance

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Back in the day of being able to choose stats: Choosing Vit and melding vit to survive mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Snippy...

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Yup, I remember reading all of arguments about this. Here, Reddit, Youtube...it was a strong back and forth happening, peeps brining up their numbers, data, their own group performance on the matter... BUT... the AST mains in game got to me first when I was trying some of the raids in STB on my Lala. Too many had told me how to do it and not stress over balance card so much. This is an RNG system we're dealing with so "have fun with it" was their words. The "have fun with it" advice is what I rolled with from those Vets and was able to get through the raids I wanted to try. As long as I applied buffs to the right person, we were solid, it was a nice added challenge that made raids actually kind of fun for me. Of course, now I no longer have any desire to raid.

Which leads me to @Liam_Harper comment... Yes, it is hard for me to see why some of the AST mains stressed over balance. The pug groups I ended up with had no stress about it either. We had fun, arguments, jokes, hella jokes lol. We didn't stress over perfection or numbers. It was only if we were making absolutely no progress would someone make suggestions on when people should use their utilities and what not. As long as we made progress and eventually cleared, I never got stressed over which card I had at the moment.

But I'm not about to get that deep into that argument, since we can't even test it or anything anymore. I only wished, during a time that seemed like the devs were listening to players, that players asked for balance to just be changed into something else. SE obviously likes bole and increased attack speed when looking at Exaltation and Astrodyne. Only thing they needed to do was to find a different utility for balance. Something that wouldn't stress out players but also allow for it to be equally useful alongside the other cards. But, unfortunately, it looks like we could end up having all our cards deleted and become WHM 2 before that ever gets considered...

A huge issue with the old AST cards is that offensive cards and utility cards cannot exist within the same system in a game where damage is valued above all else. Having Bole, Ewer, and Spire exist in an Arcana that contained Balance just made the former three even more unwanted. A lot of that is due to this game making damage king above utility.

I would have rather the old arcana system be split into utility and damage cards, with Balance changed to something not straight damage %. Purely because nothing would ever compete with it (though a Spear on a BRD or MNK during their burst could come close). Instead, the devs saw fit to destroy the old card system instead of listening to feedback on ways to improve it without stripping AST of its gimmick. Now, AST is just a better WHM with a card system that could just as easily be stripped down to a single card. Which the devs are well aware of, since they slapped the Seals and Divination on them in ShB to keep all 6 relevant. And now, they’ve slapped Astrodyne on the Seals to keep them relevant.

A part of me wonders if 7.0 will bring with it removal of all cards except Balance. At this point, the card variety is virtually meaningless.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

A huge issue with the old AST cards is that offensive cards and utility cards cannot exist within the same system in a game where damage is valued above all else. Having Bole, Ewer, and Spire exist in an Arcana that contained Balance just made the former three even more unwanted. A lot of that is due to this game making damage king above utility.

I would have rather the old arcana system be split into utility and damage cards, with Balance changed to something not straight damage %. Purely because nothing would ever compete with it (though a Spear on a BRD or MNK during their burst could come close). Instead, the devs saw fit to destroy the old card system instead of listening to feedback on ways to improve it without stripping AST of its gimmick. Now, AST is just a better WHM with a card system that could just as easily be stripped down to a single card. Which the devs are well aware of, since they slapped the Seals and Divination on them in ShB to keep all 6 relevant. And now, they’ve slapped Astrodyne on the Seals to keep them relevant.

A part of me wonders if 7.0 will bring with it removal of all cards except Balance. At this point, the card variety is virtually meaningless.

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I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what.

Now this generally will revolve around people accepting FFXIV's current combat design or not but its the reason for me to believe on their simplification of jobs to be more focused on dealing damage but with no overly complex systems to supplement them. Its why current healer doesnt feel that fun, the lack of having useful supports doesnt cater to its "dps design". Same thing with tanks where they may feel like a second rate dps; because of the lack of having to manage enmity all the time. Although at least with tanks, they are given a set amount of tools for dealing damage and for mitigation but with healers all they got is their various healing abilities but without that robust toolkit for contributing damage.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what.

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FFXIV’s combat never had elemental resistances after A Realm Reborn came to be. When 1.0 died and 2.0 was launched in its place, there were remnants of the old elemental resistance mechanics that were present in 1.0 (materia, elemental resistance stats on your character, elemental resistances on ARR gear pieces), but they were so watered down that attempting to stack any sort of elemental resistance in the player’s favor was negligible—and all aspects of the resistances have been removed. Combat itself never relied on the old elemental resistances seen in single-player Final Fantasy games—possibly because there were only two classes/jobs at the time that dealt elemental damage (CNJ/WHM and THM/BLM), so it would likely be a system that wouldn’t work for any other class/job when faced with magical opponents.

Jobs used to have STR down and INT down mechanics: PLD’s Rage of Halone used to put STR down on bosses, MNK’s Dragon Kick was INT down, and DRK’s original Delerium was also INT down. There also used to be resistance downs such as slashing, blunt, and piercing—but a lot of these caused balance concerns, particularly piercing resistance down. As a former BRD main, I don’t miss the inherent reliance my job used to have on having a DRG present, even if I did like the synergy of SB BRD with DRG’s Battle Litany (and SCH’s Chain Strategem). That a lot of these were removed were due to the balancing issues they caused. Which were partially on the developers, since Yoshida outright admitted that they never balanced BRD or MCH around piercing resistance down, and scratched their heads each expansion when the two were doing far more damage than they anticipated.

None of that was why the old card system didn’t work, though. Cards didn’t affect elemental resistance or offer debuffs or anything like that—they purely buffed the party (either offensively or defensively). I don’t know how familiar you are with the old system, but they were as follows (single-target with no Royal Road enhancements on them):

Balance: +10% damage increased (was momentarily +20% damage from Patch 3.4 when the devs were desperately trying to make players play AST)
Spear: +10% critical hit rate (used to be reduced cooldown duration for buffs used while under the effect, but was changed because Spear was Royal Road fodder)
Arrow: +10% reduced weaponskill speed and cast time (essentially Haste)
Bole: +20% damage taken reduced (I believe it used to be +10%, but was buffed sometime in HW)
Ewer: MP restoration
Spire: TP restoration

The reason the old card system didn’t work was because there was never any choice between damage and utility: damage was always superior in terms of numbers, especially when more and more jobs began to gain mitigative utility or support utility that could make things like Bole, Spire, and Ewer less valuable (old Refresh/Tactician and Palisade to name a couple). Allowing a dual-Spread that let ASTs hold 1 utility card and 1 damage card could have alleviated this in a sense, because now Bole and Ewer would not have to directly compete with Balance and Spear. SB AST didn’t have the best mana economy, and relied heavily on BRD/MCH’s Refresh and optimized Lightspeed and Lucid + old Celestial Opposition to keep from bottoming out—so Ewer was favorable for them in a pinch. Holding a Bole for a tank could also be beneficial, especially in dungeon settings where a tank is mass-pulling. The most useless card was arguably Spire, since TP was not a concern for the most part; but it could have been changed to something else. Arrow could also be controversial, as there were only a handful of jobs that wanted Haste (BLM, for example), and tons that did not (NIN, MCH, PLD, to give a few).

That said, something would have had to be done with Balance, since nothing can compete with flat damage increases. There was a lot of talk about making it increased Direct Hit back in the day, which could have worked to an extent. I think the problem would have likely just shifted to Spear being king, since critical hit has always been the best substat. Spire would have had to be changed as well, since TP was removed after SB. The developers either didn’t want to try and configure a way to maintain card variety or they thought they were doing what ASTs wanted when they made everything crappier Balances. It’s hard to say what they were thinking. I can sympathize to an extent because AST has always been a balancing nightmare, but I would rather the card flavor over the neutered system we have now. Because each individual card clings to staying relevant: be it by Seals or Astrodyne. Remove those two aspects of the cards, and there’s no reason just to not have one.

There likely is no way for the speedkillers to not value the “best” card of the 6. I realize that. Minor Arcana suffers from that now with it being “Get Lord, be happy” or “Get Lady, be sad”. But I do think that the card flavor gave AST a certain charm, and its something that I miss. Even as one who has optimized jobs in the past. I’m not a speedkiller, but I do like to dabble in optimization. I wish that the old system could have been salvaged in some way. I miss the flavor, and I miss the Royal Road aspects of it. I much preferred preparing Expanded Royal Roads over just single-target buffs.

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Now this generally will revolve around people accepting FFXIV's current combat design or not but its the reason for me to believe on their simplification of jobs to be more focused on dealing damage but with no overly complex systems to supplement them. Its why current healer doesnt feel that fun, the lack of having useful supports doesnt cater to its "dps design". Same thing with tanks where they may feel like a second rate dps; because of the lack of having to manage enmity all the time. Although at least with tanks, they are given a set amount of tools for dealing damage and for mitigation but with healers all they got is their various healing abilities but without that robust toolkit for contributing damage.

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In terms of healers, it’s quite literally the developers catering to the lowest common denominator. If they think that baby healers are going to be stressed out having to deal with handing mitigation, then they won’t give healers mitigation (or other support skills). Same thing with increasing the amount of damage healers have to actually heal: they think it will stress out baby healers, therefore it cannot and will not be a thing. There is also the aspect of design philosophy: WHMs have asked repeatedly for a raid buff like Bravery to at least make the job competitive with AST, but the developers are stuck in their philosophy that WHM is the “pure, burst/raw healing healer”, and refuse to let it be anything else. And we can all see how well that is currently working out for it. And how well it’s worked in the past, since AST has utterly annihilated WHM very thoroughly since HW (with the exception of early ShB when AST was bordering on HW-launch levels of bad).

Yes I know that, I was just trying name some examples about rpg combat mechanics. Not necessarily saying that "elemental resistances" were the sole key to keeping it engaging. Please dont make such assumptions.

Im well aware that FFXIV originally had a more robust rpg centric combat system but I was making the point that the devs reasoning behind "simplifying" jobs were due to that change in philosophy over the years. Heck even WoW to an extent started to do that. In fact...a lot of MMOs seem to stray far from the complexities of stat based combat in favor of more action oriented style of combat. Just look at games like Lost Ark and BDO.

Would I prefer if we kept that old school design? Honestly I dont know. Part of me feels like combat looked a lot more interesting and engaging back then but another side of me thinks that there's a general beauty to simplification when it comes to combat. Usually a lot of people in those years were able to nerd about with complexities with rpg combat systems and I still do, its why I love to play single player rpgs that give me that experience but when MMO's started to attract more and more players with different game backgrounds, the mentality shifted less to be hardcore centric and more about making it just "fun".

This is where of course we all keep debating whether current job design is "fun" or not. Some people have arguments about this for both sides but its definitely something to think about when it comes to how modern rpgs play nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yes I know that, I was just trying name some examples about rpg combat mechanics. Not necessarily saying that "elemental resistances" were the sole key to keeping it engaging. Please dont make such assumptions.

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I’m responding to the examples you provided. The cards never had anything to do with any of the mechanics you listed—they were purely damage-based, defensive with regards to Bole, or resource management with Spire/Ewer. There’s no assumptions to be made when you are the one who provided these two as examples. I’m merely telling you that neither had any bearing on the cards because the cards never affected any of them. In other words, they’re irrelevant.

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Im well aware that FFXIV originally had a more robust rpg centric combat system but I was making the point that the devs reasoning behind "simplifying" jobs were due to that change in philosophy over the years. Heck even WoW to an extent started to do that. In fact...a lot of MMOs seem to stray far from the complexities of stat based combat in favor of more action oriented style of combat. Just look at games like Lost Ark and BDO.

Would I prefer if we kept that old school design? Honestly I dont know. Part of me feels like combat looked a lot more interesting and engaging back then but another side of me thinks that there's a general beauty to simplification when it comes to combat. Usually a lot of people in those years were able to nerd about with complexities with rpg combat systems and I still do, its why I love to play single player rpgs that give me that experience but when MMO's started to attract more and more players with different game backgrounds, the mentality shifted less to be hardcore centric and more about making it just "fun".

This is where of course we all keep debating whether current job design is "fun" or not. Some people have arguments about this for both sides but its definitely something to think about when it comes to how modern rpgs play nowadays.

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I don’t find any beauty in simplification. The aspects I found fun about certain jobs in the past all revolved around the complexities that have since been removed. BRD is a perfect example of a job that had complexity and interactivity within its own kit, and now it has neither. I don’t think any true healer main appreciates the simplification the healers have seen since SB—just based on the amount of threads complaining about healer design that have increased in frequency since ShB launch (and have also increased in the amount of salt).

In addition, the amount of complaints arising about the 6.1 changes to certain DPS jobs also implies that not everyone is so fond of the job changes the developers are coming out with. This is probably the first time where each side of the FFXIV community (NA, EU, and JP) are unified in their questioning of what is happening with NIN and SAM on Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m responding to the examples you provided. The cards never had anything to do with any of the mechanics you listed—they were purely damage-based, defensive with regards to Bole, or resource management with Spire/Ewer. There’s no assumptions to be made when you are the one who provided these two as examples. I’m merely telling you that neither had anything bearing on the cards because the cards never affected any of them. In other words, they’re irrelevant.



I don’t find any beauty in simplification. The aspects I found fun about certain jobs in the past all revolved around the complexities that have since been removed. BRD is a perfect example of a job that had complexity and interactivity within its own kit, and now it has neither. I don’t think any true healer main appreciates the simplification the healers have seen since SB—just based on the amount of threads complaining about healer design that have increased in frequency since ShB launch (and have also increased in the amount of salt).

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oh my goodness....stop making asinine assumptions about what I'm saying. Its like you deliberately ignore the entire point Im trying to make. Again I was just making a pure example on the combat design, not trying to focus on AST cards here.

Other than that, I understand your point. Like I said some people think its too complex for it own good, some people like you embrace it and finds it rewarding. Im in the middle ground with this at the end. At least if FFXIV is going to just be this simplified action tab targeting combat mmorpg as shown with their current job designs, at least allow the healers to have more dps buttons to press to accommodate for it.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

oh my goodness....stop making asinine assumptions about what I'm saying. Its like you deliberately ignore the entire point Im trying to make. Again I was just making a pure example on the combat design, not trying to focus on AST cards here.

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Then why are you quoting my posts talking about AST cards? Or mentioning them in your very own response to me?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what.

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This doesn’t come off as a generalized statement. It comes off more as a direct response/speculation as to why you think the AST cards didn’t work. Especially since the general conversation prior to your post was about the old card system.


Perhaps if you are only responding to something “in general” instead of about a specific system, do not quote posts that are talking about specific systems.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Then why are you quoting my posts talking about AST cards? Or mentioning them in your very own response to me? Perhaps if you are only responding in general instead of about a specific system, do not quote posts that are talking about specific systems.

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I was trying to make an example based on the topic you made! Why are we even arguing semantics here? This is so dumb.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I was trying to make an example based on the topic you made! Why are we even arguing semantics here? This is so dumb.

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I provided responses directly to what you said. You’re the only one who is getting torn up over this, if I’m to be honest.

I explained why the card system didn’t work. I don’t think there was any “missing the point” when I just responded to points you yourself brought up. Be them made “in general” or in response to a specific system. I responded with regards to the system I was already talking about. Your post didn’t seem like it was made “in general” or “generally speaking”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I provided responses directly to what you said. You’re the only one who is getting torn up over this, if I’m to be honest.

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Only because you're arguing over an example I made. All I said first was:

"I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what."

that comment I made about elemental resistances and stat buffs was just me bringing an example to standard rpg combat systems. NOT Necessarily saying this is what AST cards were. I was making a general view based on what you brought up but then you start assuming that what I'm talking about is AST cards alone and I'm just sitting here like....Yeah I understand, but do you get the words that are coming out of my mouth? Clearly its going into one ear and out the other. And thats whats frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im well aware that FFXIV originally had a more robust rpg centric combat system but I was making the point that the devs reasoning behind "simplifying" jobs were due to that change in philosophy over the years. Heck even WoW to an extent started to do that. In fact...a lot of MMOs seem to stray far from the complexities of stat based combat in favor of more action oriented style of combat. Just look at games like Lost Ark and BDO.

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This is a trend I've noticed with modern games, and I'm pretty deep in the camp of hating it. Action combat isn't *incapable* of catching my interest, but it definitely has a steeper climb than something with complexity. I'm aware I'm in a minority in the gaming landscape here.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard something like "finally, a system that fixes the problems with RPG combat systems". I don't see it that way at all. I see it replacing choice, clever ability stacking, and interesting interactions with *dodgeroll dodgeroll dodgeroll swing swing dodgeroll swing dodge swing dodge swing swing swing dodge* which is simply, to put it in RPG terms, replacing INT checks with DEX checks. I don't mind having my DEX checked. I mind when literally all of the challenge in a game boils down to twitch reflexes. I'll get bored pretty fast.

/unsolicited personal whining derailment

I don't think Hyo was trying to argue. Just taking you down memory lane and using examples as to all that went wrong with AST and healers as a whole as time went on. Your original comment was you bringing up the topic of what would this game be like if stayed the way it was or if the current version is best in a rough summary. Hyo is just responding to it in a form of discussion, not argument.

I do wonder if healers would've had the chance of seeing something more grand appear in their kits. Such as, SCH having more abilities locked behind fairy. A reason for possibly three different fairies to exist for different stuff... man I miss old SCH just as much as AST. If anything, just fun thoughts at this point to have on what could've been healers instead of now.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Only because you're arguing over an example I made. All I said first was:

"I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what."

that comment I made about elemental resistances and stat buffs was just me bringing an example to standard rpg combat systems. NOT Necessarily saying this is what AST cards were. I was making a general view based on what you brought up but then you start assuming that what I'm talking about is AST cards alone and I'm just sitting here like....Yeah I understand, but do you get the words that are coming out of my mouth? Clearly its going into one ear and out the other. And thats whats frustrating.

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All I am doing is explaining that your assumption has no bearing on why the cards didn’t work—which why they didn’t work was already present in the post I made, but you just ignored that with your speculation. The lack of those combat systems was not why the old card system failed; it was because the old card system did not allow for damage cards and utility cards to exist simultaneously. You always had to make a choice, and damage-focused choices are already better. This could have been rectified with splitting the two instead into separate Spreads—it didn’t really need combat overhauls or a removal of “DPS focused” combat.

If you bothered to read my (admittedly) long response to you, you would have realized that. I only explained old FFXIV combat and what the AST cards were since it wasn’t inherently obvious what your prior knowledge on them was, and it seems like I somehow offended you by just trying to familiarize you with what they used to be. A lot of newer players don’t know what the old effects were, and I have no way of knowing if you were one or not, outside of your forum join date. I wasn’t trying to argue semantics, nor ignoring what you were saying. I was merely responding that your points about combat had no bearing on the old system.

That said, I am ending this conversation here. Clearly, there is no way to find amiable conversation between us. I hope you have a wonderful day.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I don't think Hyo was trying to argue. Just taking you down memory lane and using examples as to all that went wrong with AST and healers as a whole as time went on. Your original comment was you bringing up the topic of what would this game be like if stayed the way it was or if the current version is best in a rough summary. Hyo is just responding to it in a form of discussion, not argument.

I do wonder if healers would've had the chance of seeing something more grand appear in their kits. Such as, SCH having more abilities locked behind fairy. A reason for possibly three different fairies to exist for different stuff... man I miss old SCH just as much as AST. If anything, just fun thoughts at this point to have on what could've been healers instead of now.

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If thats the case then ok, understood. I shouldnt have blown up over it.

Thats another thing, its super weird that they took out the differences between Eos and Selene but still keep them both summonable anyway? I get there's a cosmetic thing about it but its like so seemingly negligible that who cares. The entire time in the SCH questline shows Eos anyway so why keep the two separated? NGL wish the two fairies actually alter the establish scholar skills in terms of effects to keep some semblence of variety.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

If thats the case then ok, understood. I shouldnt have blown up over it.

Thats another thing, its super weird that they took out the differences between Eos and Selene but still keep them both summonable anyway? I get there's a cosmetic thing about it but its like so seemingly negligible that who cares. The entire time in the SCH questline shows Eos anyway so why keep the two separated? NGL wish the two fairies actually alter the establish scholar skills in terms of effects to keep some semblence of variety.

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I remember how excited I was when I first unlocked the healers. WHM being tuned to elementals, SCH gaining control over the fairies and the AST unlocking gates to tune with the cards. It was so exciting back then to see all those cutscenes and really helped getting into the concept of the healers then. Now, it's like you said, it's mostly, if not all, just cosmetic at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about 7.0 or if I will even care enough by then.

It's hard to comment about healers being boring when there's so many new players who are new to the current version of healers and enjoying them. Not that they shouldn't enjoy them. But I can't help but wonder how many would feel the same if they played the old school healers first like us Veteran healers? Would be interesting if there was some offline version of this game for newbies to see and feel the difference. Give feedback and all.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I remember how excited I was when I first unlocked the healers. WHM being tuned to elementals, SCH gaining control over the fairies and the AST unlocking gates to tune with the cards. It was so exciting back then to see all those cutscenes and really helped getting into the concept of the healers then. Now, it's like you said, it's mostly, if not all, just cosmetic at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about 7.0 or if I will even care enough by then.

It's hard to comment about healers being boring when there's so many new players who are new to the current version of healers and enjoying them. Not that they shouldn't enjoy them. But I can't help but wonder how many would feel the same if they played the old school healers first like us Veteran healers? Would be interesting if there was some offline version of this game for newbies to see and feel the difference. Give feedback and all.

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I'm the unashamedly mean veteran healer in the room. I think one would have to have a brain tumor to find Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare fun for more than about two dungeons. *shrug*

I don’t think they’re that interested in veteran players as long as the new player conveyer belt keeps spinning. And the more they make the jobs more easy, (I assume) they think it will appeal to an ever growing audience - you wouldn’t think so though, since the tank and healer shortage is as bad as it ever was.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

I don’t think they’re that interested in veteran players as long as the new player conveyer belt keeps spinning. And the more they make the jobs more easy, (I assume) they think it will appeal to an ever growing audience - you wouldn’t think so though, since the tank and healer shortage is as bad as it ever was.

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I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

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Oh except Black Mage, because someone with actual veto power in how jobs are designed mains it. He wouldn't have as much fun if it were significantly dumbed down. But the opposite holds true for the rest of us. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

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I don’t think that’s a bad thing - getting a different perspective of how the game plays if you’re a tank or a healer keeps it fresh and you learn some new skills. It feels like they think if a player tries out a new role and they feel it’s even remotely challenging, they’ll instantly quit the game, rather than just go back to the previous role, or even try to learn and get better at the role. Maybe it’s a “oh no, it’s too much responsibility” thing? I’m not sure, if that is the thinking, that making the jobs ridiculously easy will make people suddenly change their mind about the responsibility thing.