Will Warriors ever get any LOVE?

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Originally Posted by Roaran

We take 20% more dmg, but we receive 15% more in healing. We have much much more HP, and we have the ability to do some significant healing in a pinch.

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That is not correct. WAR receives 25% more damage compared to Shield Oath alone, and Gladiators have an additional passive mitigation bonus in terms of shield blocking. Estimates typically put this advantage at 4-5%. You will therefore take about 30% more damage than PLD ignoring cooldowns. Furthermore, you cannot sustain that 15% healing bonus; even using the common don't-use-IB-until-you-have-to setup, you're averaging around 13%. At this time, WAR has 85 HP more base HP than PLD. This is nearly negligible at endgame, comprising less than 2% advantage. In terms of core reserve, PLD's effective HP (i.e. HP adjusted for passive mitigation) is greater than WAR's after accounting for shield block.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

All you gotta do is look at the stats on some endgame Japanese warrior. There is nothing wrong with war.

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This can be done with a PLD as well. As I stated above, WAR gets only 85 HP more than PLD. What you have there is someone who dumped points into VIT -- which isn't necessarily wrong, given how utterly gimped HP drain is right now.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

PARRY is your damage mitigation. it can be over 20% sometimes. DEX and PAR affect the RATE at which you parry - you will see this in the damage popup.

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DEX will never increase parry rate sufficiently to improve durability in a meaningful way. If ever there were ever any justification for doing so, PLD would get more benefit from it due to stronger blocking strength -- it would necessarily increase the durability gap between WAR and PLD. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel

give WAR a passive that turns all their self heals into a shield if they end up over healing themselves

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What we need is Mordekaiser!

Why do people keep bringing up AK or mid level stuff? The very first sentence of the thread says endgame. That is when the disparity starts to become noticeable.

And it should be further noted that being able to clear endgame stuff (viability) is not the same as being as effective at doing it. Pretty much every endgame guild is saying PLDs are far safer/more reliable at that level.

I think the problem with Warrior lies in the the eyes of 1.0 players. Steel Cyclone was just ridiculously good and they may have heavy handed it a bit. I agree with most people here in that Warrior can tank anything that Paladin can, sometimes better. At the same time however, Paladin will be better at some fights also.

As of now I prefer a well geared warrior tank over same gear pld for everything except for binding coil. They tank everything fine with far better dps too. Now I personally can't say anything about coil yet since our fc just finished getting Titan for the last 3 members of our coil group and we will be running it for the first time tonight. I've heard they have some problems but we'll see. Whatever the case we have only 1 true endgame location and not even the first true patch yet so will be holding off judgment calls.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I suspect that the devs feel the current crop of warriors and those healing them are doing it all wrong. Probably because too many people are trying to boost mitigation instead of self-healing.

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Please understand that I haven't gotten to endgame WAR. However, I can see a glaring mathematical disadvantage for WAR based on damage output observed in videos. In these videos, tanks are taking no-joke 1000 post-defense damage per second (this is 800 damage per second on a PLD after Shield Oath). WAR's self-healing compared to PLD's Shield Oath, nevermind Rampart and Sentinel, is pathetic in these cases.

So yeah, I think SE is just about painted into a corner here. I expect WAR to suck intil level cap increases at least, simply because the changes required to be competitive are far too great. Let me give you an example of how you'd address it by changes, and you'll see why it won't happen:

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If that is what you believe, you need to convince SE of it, not me. And that first means unlocking the secret of the meta they use in their own testing - which I suspect is radically different from that of the players not having good results on warriors.

I suspect, based on reading the people who claim it is fine, that the meta involves dropping your mitigation and boosting your strength and critical so as to spike up your self-healing. Maybe not...

But whatever it is... until we find it, and can point back to SE and say "We did what you do, and it still doesn't work" - they'll keep coming back with "it works for us, what is your problem?"

Everyone is doing all this math, and I think SE is just saying "you folks are using the wrong formula." Look at what I quoted, from Yoshi. He's the one you need to convince. But first you have to suss out his formulas...

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Originally Posted by Bruiser_Cruiser

Im just gonna ignore all the threads about how warrior is bad and try it out for myself. I think ill get WHM 50 first but it just seems theres already so many healers out there.

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My plan is to level scholar as soon as I finish warrior - its one thing to read all this theory from different sides, I want to try it, and see if I can unlock the 'meta' for healing warriors. If Yoshi is actually right - we need to find it. If he's wrong, we're stuck proving him wrong on his terms...

That said, roughly 1 in 4 toons are tanks, and roughly 1 in 5 are healers. The game needs more healers. Especially PUG healers.

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Originally Posted by Firon

its all about position in that fight if ppl just stand anywhere your gonna have cracks under everyone and wiping the team.

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I've begun "training" my FC-mates from my first dungeon on about mobility.

I know everyone says 'tank stand still so the DPS can flank and backpoke' but I don't. Lessons from having to learn how to move as a healer at level 70 in WoW, circa 2007, when suddenly the effects were too big to stand in and I was the sole person causing my entire raid to wipe over and over for many weeks... I soldiered through and taught myself how to handle any role while moving like a cartoon tasmanian devil.

So I move all the time when tanking, DPSing, or Healing. And If I'm tanking - it means you learn to move with me, or you stand there wondering where the enemy just went. BUT I move in ways to lesson the impact of those red patterns on the ground - and if you learn my waltz, you'll be pretty safe. Because I intentionally position to get the effect off of both me and my DPS whenever possible.

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Originally Posted by Nikkita

One of our rising healers had been doing pug groups to help him learn his healing role, he ran with this particular WAR and his comment was please don't try to teach healers the runs with him as tank because they will suck with everyone else because a run with him is such a cake walk. I don't know what he's doing but he's sure as hell is doing it just right.

This really must come down to preference and skill... Nothing wrong with the job in my eyes even as a healer.

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I've been saying for a while that as long as the red arrow of a mob isn't facing you, it wastes time turning to you, and MAYBE can't auto-attack hit you...

I think I self-proved that, or something else last night. My keybinds were messed up last night after I moved them a little to what I thought would be better... Result was that my usually pattern of circle-strafing when solo became stand in front of them and move through or back...

Suddenly mobs that I used to finish off while at near full health were dropping me to 25% per pull in my 'GC leve' soloing... At first I though "this must be because my gear is getting old" but then I recalled that the same leve's a few night earlier were a breeze. Adjusted my keybinds back, and my near immunity returned...

That's not very much of a 'why warrior works' comment - the same gimmick should work for a paladin too. And its really a marauder that I'm on in this one - and soloing. So my point is really that: how you play and position is very important. Maybe more than your gear and your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

If that is what you believe, you need to convince SE of it, not me. And that first means unlocking the secret of the meta they use in their own testing - which I suspect is radically different from that of the players not having good results on warriors.

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Ha, if only I could get Yoshi's ear! Regardless, I be interested to see any suggestion of how WAR would close the gap, because I don't see anything which would suggest a remote chance of meeting PLD. Anyway, just to clear out the self-healing method...

Seeking only survival (note that you'd lose aggro, lose your defensive cooldowns, and lose your interrupts all if you did this -- this is just dumping cooldowns for building Wrath in a 90s Berserk/Bloodbath cycle), a WAR can push about 11,500 post-crit healing potency per 90 seconds (based on a spreadsheet I set up some time ago). Endgame WAR built for STR should push near 1 damage per potency. 11,500 heal per 90s is 127.78 per second. In addition, you'd have around 7% average healing boost. At 1000 damage per second, that's 65.42 more from the healing bonus, or a total of 193.2 HP/s from increased heal and self-heals. We know that PLD has already won, because the extra mitigation from Shield Oath alone is 200 HP/s, then shield block advantage and PLD use of Bloodbath. After all that, you'd have PLD who is more durable, still has interrupts, and has superior survival cooldowns (Rampart and Bulwark). And if you didn't gather from the first sentence, this strategy is completely untenable for a Warrior -- you would put both yourself and your team in jeopardy by attempting it. A more realistic rotation is around 9500 healed per 90s, which is weaker but doesn't involve hanging your squishy arse on the line by abandoning all of your defensive CDs sans Foresight.

If I want to be more thorough, I can look at the available skills and tell you that none of them will make the difference. Mantra is 5% healing for 15 seconds per 120, which is hilariously bad. Featherfoot is roughly equivalent to Bulwark over the duration -- this is why I never mention Bulwark as an advantage for PLD. Haymaker provides an effect (Slow) which several party members already have, which can only be used on rare occasion due to reduced evasion rates in endgame dungeons, to which opponents build resistance, and to which many opponents are immune. Internal Release is good for boosting damage and drain, but is only a boost of 10% of base damage for 1/4 of the time -- I used it in the spreadsheet estimate.

Full-STR self-healing is actually how I recommended people play the job back when the 300/300% setup first leaked -- it seemed the mathematically-superior route. It thought it would make a lovely tank and and only a little bit weaker at the absolute limits of healing capacity. However, at the time, healing was half as effective as it is now, and that proffered a limit on enemy damage which was not unfair to WAR. I assumed that the design would be more focused on skillful evasion and teamwork rather than raw tank-and-spank efficiency, that neither tank would withstand a bout standing in one place with whatever enraged demigod showed up. Alas, that never came to pass. With that boost to HP healed and associated dungeon design which involves incredible damage rates, WAR cannot keep up -- we knew that to be WAR's weakness before Phase 4 began. Basically, WAR's design made good sense as a berserking monster with P3 healing. At the limits of healing, WAR would require more skilled play than PLD, but could go toe-to-toe any time. PLD would be preferred, but WAR would still work out with some adjustments. The new healing formula makes WAR comparatively weaker, and that's pretty much all there is to it. Again, WAR might have made up the difference with other interrupts or similar means of decreasing enemy damage output, but it's PLD who has these advantages over WAR, putting a few more nails in the coffin.

You know I've been wondering this since release but:

PLD has Shield Oath and Sword Oath, and these skills are pretty typical of PLD's. Look at other MMO's and you'll see that most PLD classes have some sort of Oath, Aura , Blessing that allows them to take less damage and so on.

WAR in other games often has shouts that are basically the same equivalent to a PLD's Oath, Aura, and Blessings except they're for WARS.

So why don't WARS have some sort of shout for them in this game that works like PLD's Oaths?

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

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I agree with most of what u said except feather foot being on par with bulwark cause its not reducing dmg taken by 25-27% 60% of the time is tons better than feather foot.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

All you gotta do is look at the stats on some endgame Japanese warrior. There is nothing wrong with war.

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that's a pretty poorly geared war tbh (why a strength ring? 1 darklight 1 hoplite is better)

my war is ~5600 without party buff, pld is ~5400 (stupidly bought af2 gloves for war)

it's not that people are going wrong and gearing incorrectly.

people are comparing a full darklight warrior with his relic+1, to a full darklight paladin with his relic+1

the paladin lives, the warrior dies

if you're running around in af and can't even imagine content where you could die if you were full darklight, most of the conversation here is over your head.

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Originally Posted by Gourry

Lol i main warrior that's all i do and I've been end gaming for a while now and i have had 0 problems at any point, sure id like a buff, maybe if your looking for sustain improvement just double the hp returned from life stealing moves and keep damage the same but really I'm not fussed, i hold hate and survive just fine, if you don't your doing it wrong.

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where is your relic weapon?

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Originally Posted by AlyssaImagine

I've been able to heal my warrior friend just fine. Honestly, he's better than most of the Paladin's I've run into. xD

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where is your relic weapon?

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Too many people are trying to play War like a Pld. Nearly every post about 'fixing' War talks about how 'shields' should be added to skills. I say NO. That's like saying 'Well, drg doesn't have many range attacks, they need to be able to use bows' Stop trying to change the job and play it properly.

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playing it properly like what? eating dirt?
or standing in town while everyone else wants pld to tank titan and ignore war?

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Originally Posted by hola

playing it properly like what? eating dirt?
or standing in town while everyone else wants pld to tank titan and ignore war?

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With that attitude no wonder you have to use Pugs to do anything. 'Standing in town' is #noFCorLS problem. (or a rusher with a bad attitude problem)

For the record, I'm not at Titan yet, I've stopped because relic is a waste of tomes for war compared to the armor upgrades.
Oh, and if you 'eat dirt' as War, you're doing it wrong, or your healer is one.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

For the record, I'm not at Titan yet

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I'm quoting the relevant part of your post so you can have a quick reference for the future that will help you identify where you went wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

I'm quoting the relevant part of your post so you can have a quick reference for the future that will help you identify where you went wrong.

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What is that supposed to mean? I can't have an opinion just because I haven't done a fight? Sorry, but even the devs have said that War is fine, and that players haven't 'researched' enough.

I'm level 50 War with relic +1 and most pieces darklight or equivalence. My question is this; If parry on warrior is to paladin and their shield blocking why is it that we are sub jobbed with monk instead of lancer?

Here is my point. Lance has skills that would increase our damage a much as pugilist would and at the same time would increase our defensive skills more so than monk. Most our other utility we pull out of gladiator tree anyways like convalescence and such while pug only gives us access to second wind which is useless compared to inner beast or etc. Mantra is pointless as for the fact when tanking War is getting popped most the time while other members shouldn't be no justifying the cool down timer or skill slot and 5% doesn't mean much to the 20% defense or 20% healing increase of other skills.

Feather foot is okay but again our main mitigation comes from self heal and parry and the 20% increase for crit is pointless as war doesn't have anything that triggers off critical hits as we used to like in 1.0.

So if we had access to lancer on the other hand right out of the gate we would get 40% increase to parry rate which is way better than feather foot plus other more useful skills than what are offered via pugilist.

NOT saying this will fix all the things with warrior to re-balance them out and make them more viable but I think this would be a good start.



SE please take mind of these ideas for changes:
1. Change sub to gladiator and Lancer as for reasons stated above

2. Making defiance the same yet always passively have 15% healing buff and with each stack gain 20% to self healing from skills {This would give viable reason to use your stacks over holding onto them and give inner beast or bloodbath that much need boost without having to modify them individually}

3. Change Mercy Stroke to lower potency skill that adds debuff against boss for 20-30 seconds that either increases all damage incoming to target from all sources or for less powerful version it would just ignores your -25% damage debuff from defiance or increase your damage against target by 25-50%. If the target dies while the debuff is still active then triggers the self heal effect as it has now. {currently next to impossible to time to get killing strike in order to get the self heal to trigger}

4. Maybe think about adding an offhand equip item for warriors that doesn't add any stat other than similar to how paladins and shields work, so for us it would increase our parry rate and give us more strength to increase our enmity generation and parry amount. Could be like a wrist guard or a tiny little buckler. {If you look into the history of bucklers they were used to deflect and parry attacks as well as attacking enemies which would be exactly what the stats would reflect in game. More parry and more strength for attacks}

Anyways this is all just my opinion but I think these changes would be all steps in the right direction without re-overbalancing to a point the opposite effect were paladins are inferior to warriors. I think if these suggestions are followed we would end up with two different styles of tanks that are viable at the same times. Not interchangeable but viable in their own ways so not getting cookie cutter re-branded skills and tank kits.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

What is that supposed to mean? I can't have an opinion just because I haven't done a fight? Sorry, but even the devs have said that War is fine, and that players haven't 'researched' enough.

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No you cannot. Because the game changes drastically starting from Titan/Coil.
There is nothing wrong WAR until that point. After that, WAR is a sub-tank.

No.

Roll paladin for end game or prepare to be sat for being useless.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

What is that supposed to mean? I can't have an opinion just because I haven't done a fight? Sorry, but even the devs have said that War is fine, and that players haven't 'researched' enough.

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It just means your opinion isn't colored by experience which makes the value of your opinion minimal. There is already a difference on Ifrit / Garuda when it comes to WAR v PLD tanking, it's just that the WAR doesn't feel the difference, and the healers are easily able to overcome the difference at that gear level.

Once you get to Titan it becomes more obvious. Once you get to Binding Coil it's closer to a brick wall.

You simply don't understand the complaints warriors have right now if you think "I can do Garuda so it's fine." No one is really complaining about Garuda because the amount of damage garuda puts out is pretty manageable, even without any cooldowns and probably without even relying on inner beast.
But Titan ratchets up things quite a bit, with auto attacks @800-900 dmg, and mountain busters at 4500. Yeah, warriors can do it, but it takes significantly more effort from the healers, but it's honestly pretty manageable.

Once you get to Binding Coil and Caduceus it becomes painfully obvious, as the mob is hitting you for 1400 - 2000 on normal hits, and 2500-4000 on hood swipes depending on how many stacks it has. Yeah, Warriors can do this fight, but it's more due to the ability of the raid to apply a variety of buffs / debuffs, along with significantly more healing output from the healers when compared to the PLD counterparts.

In the end, your experience doesn't really qualify you to make comments on the state of Warrior balance when the Warriors actually complaining about things are complaining about things that you haven't even experienced yet. Particularly when you're talking about things that endgame warriors aren't even complaining about -the conversation is in a completely different place.

Yeah, Yoshi said that WAR were good but he never specified what they were good at. Warriors are really good at clearing AK. That doesn't mean they're good at clearing Binding Coil. And aside from that, developers have been known to get balance things wrong before. Last I checked before ARR it wasn't like Paladins were a shining beacon of balance either.

I think what people are missing here is that WAR very much dependent on gear. For instance switching from AF Body and helmet to Heavy Darklight gained me 300HP. I can only expect tha other pieces to have a similar gain and I have heard that a warrior who is well geared in Allagan can have extremely high HP.

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Originally Posted by Resheph

I think what people are missing here is that WAR very much dependent on gear. For instance switching from AF Body and helmet to Heavy Darklight gained me 300HP. I can only expect tha other pieces to have a similar gain and I have heard that a warrior who is well geared in Allagan can have extremely high HP.

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This does not change the fact that right now , PLD can do it with iLevel 70 and WAR cannot. So there is something wrong.
Tanks should all be able to MT with the same gear else it creates a situation were the other tank will be left out.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

What is that supposed to mean? I can't have an opinion just because I haven't done a fight?

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yes

you can't have an opinion about the fights you haven't done yet

NOBODY is saying warriors have issues before the fights you haven't done yet, so your stance is valid

warriors absolutely are fine before titan

you're absolutely qualified to claim warriors are great tanks at garuda/ifrit/hydra/chimera/ak/wanderers/praetorium/cm/whatever else you want to do

the final phase of titan is the first eye opener that something is different between the tanks, final boss of turn 1 in coil, and the dreadnoughts in turn 4

basically, the progression fights, the things that matter as far as endgame is concerned

warriors are great in farm content though

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Originally Posted by Firon

I agree with most of what u said except feather foot being on par with bulwark cause its not reducing dmg taken by 25-27% 60% of the time is tons better than feather foot.

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Reducing by 25% for 60% of the time should be net reduction of 15%. Featherfoot is a reduction by 100% for 15% of the time, which is a net reduction of 15%. Additionally, Featherfoot can be used twice as often as Bulwark, which is its own advantage. However, on a time-weighted bonus, the difference is small: Featherfoot is a 2.5% decrease in overall dodge-able damage in compared to the roughly 1.25% of Bulwark if used on cooldown. Bulwark is more useful in practice because tanks benefit from reliability, but Featherfoot has half the cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Resheph

I think what people are missing here is that WAR very much dependent on gear. For instance switching from AF Body and helmet to Heavy Darklight gained me 300HP. I can only expect tha other pieces to have a similar gain and I have heard that a warrior who is well geared in Allagan can have extremely high HP.

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Please understand that this is simply not true. The difference between WAR and PLD before Defiance is exactly 85 HP at all VIT levels. If you have 500 VIT, then it will be 85 HP on top of 6200 HP. Because WAR and PLD have identical gear, you can expect that the HP difference is negligible. WAR gets 25% HP from Defiance, but PLD gets a 20% damage reduction. In terms of effective HP, they are essentially identical except for that 85 base HP difference.

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Originally Posted by melwynne

It is not the DPS that is the problem. You will all know this once you reach endgame.

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Really? please do remove the question mark above my head then, and tell me what kinda problems warriors do have?
Currently i'm in coil myself as a PLD with a warrior OT, he is makeing between 140-170 dps evryfight, even at turn 2 with the tank swops he gets the nodes and adss off instantly.

I will say it again, people complaining about warrior is broken is either bad players, or someone playing a wrong class if they cant make it work without reddit/help websites doing the job for them so all they have to do is mimic something written, warrior works completly fine and tbh make way more dps then a PLD.

So i strongly advise you take a look at your gear, your stats & materias, wich food buffs you're useing cause you are doing something wrong if you cant tank in coil without problems.

Players in general have become lazy. "I don\\'t want a spend too much time doing this." "I don\\'t want to perform at 100% for 100% of the instance, maybe just for 60%." "I\\'ve gotten so used to being a lazy fuck that I want WAR to forego inovation and uniquess and start tanking like a PLD, so I dont have to perform at my very best ALL the time." FFS. WAR may have a slight \\'disadvantage\\' compared to PLD but in capable hands it can get any \\'job\\' done. And if you just happen to be in the "I don\\'t see how WAR is equal to PLD group" then most likely you aren\\'t a career WAR, or perhaps you need to perform less mediocrely, maybe find a group that isn\\'t fixated to the idea of how to exclusively play with a PLD tank and ultimately, brush up/theory craft/teach yourself/acquire knowledge/practice every aspect of your class and the meta-game you\\'re playing in. There are no excuses.

Honestly the only real problem with warriors is a fight like twintania where she puts a HUGE healing debuff on you for a long time while bursting like crazy.

Warriors don't have the tools to deal with it.

SE just needs to avoid mechanics like that.

I remember back in v.1 when Warrior's were the top dogs lol

Now we're the co-pilots and the PLD's are the pilots, happens all the time.. We'll get some love soon.

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Originally Posted by Covertghost

Honestly the only real problem with warriors is a fight like twintania where she puts a HUGE healing debuff on you for a long time while bursting like crazy.

Warriors don't have the tools to deal with it.

SE just needs to avoid mechanics like that.

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I haven't seen it, but that should actually give WAR a relative advantage depending on how it's implemented. Healing debuffs won't affect drain (just as healing buffs don't), and if the debuff and buff stack additively, you would expect WAR to have an advantage. For the latter, it's easier to understand mathematically. If you subtract the two, you'll have something like this:

PLD: 100% healed - 50% healing debuff = 50% healing received
WAR: 100% healed - 50% debuff + 15% healing buff = 65% healing received
WAR healing / PLD healing = 65%/50% = 130% healing received compared to PLD

In any case, even if they stack multiplicatively rather than additively, WAR necessarily still has some (albeit much smaller) advantage. What it sounds like the utter lack of burst mitigation means WAR just rolls over and dies. That's one I don't know how to address other than to give WAR the HP pool to take a punch ('cause right now, WAR has no more eHP than PLD using no skills at all).

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Originally Posted by Zuri

Players in general have become lazy. "I don\\'t want a spend too much time doing this." "I don\\'t want to perform at 100% for 100% of the instance, maybe just for 60%." "I\\'ve gotten so used to being a lazy fuck that I want WAR to forego inovation and uniquess and start tanking like a PLD, so I dont have to perform at my very best ALL the time." FFS. WAR may have a slight \\'disadvantage\\' compared to PLD but in capable hands it can get any \\'job\\' done. And if you just happen to be in the "I don\\'t see how WAR is equal to PLD group" then most likely you aren\\'t a career WAR, or perhaps you need to perform less mediocrely,

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You're attempting to pass off mechanical inferiority as a virtue. You should really stop doing that, because it's foolish, and makes you look silly.

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Originally Posted by Zuri

There are no excuses.

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so you've cleared up to twintania without a paladin in your group then?

if so, great, we're all wrong and you are right, warriors are fine

if not, everything you just said is invalid :s

I will maybe start to love WAR the day they can hold more aggro than my WHM or any other healer in Garuda HM.

No im not spamming Medica 2 and yes im using shroud of saints.

My group hasn't beat turn 4 yet but it definitely seem viable with ONE warrior in the group. However, there's absolutely no way for a warrior to tank two Dreadnaught what-so-ever. And with some simple math, it's clear that warrior isn't even doing THAT much more damage than Paladin in the first place so yes, there's definitely a power imbalance between the two tank classes. Trying to claim otherwise is simply uninformed or foolish at this point. That said, we still have no idea what Yoshida-san meant by his statement, it could very well be that warrior will receive a buff come 2.1 so I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and stick with warrior until the patch.

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

I will maybe start to love WAR the day they can hold more aggro than my WHM or any other healer in Garuda HM.

No im not spamming Medica 2 and yes im using shroud of saints.

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Your point is invalid as Warriors generate more hate than PLD. You have played with bad warriors that's all.