Get rid of the prices in market search

Right, I mean it goes along with the complaint that people will simply buy at the lowest price. If you don't differentiate between the qualities then it just looks like some are obnoxiously overpriced and some are set super low. The reality is that they have been priced as such by the seller based on the quality value. And of course your example of trying to find a price for an item when it's really a + quality and just using that.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

The fair price is "I have it, I'm selling it for this much. Either based off of what other people are selling it for now, or based off the fact that no one is selling it currently."

That makes a lot of sense to me. o.o

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Makes perfect sense to me as well! I don't see a need for price history. I generally am not against adding features to the game, but I do see this one being harmful more than helpful in inflating the economy and playing the market/price history.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Makes perfect sense to me as well! I don't see a need for price history. I generally am not against adding features to the game, but I do see this one being harmful more than helpful in inflating the economy and playing the market/price history.

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I should have edited that for a third option: "Or I just don't care and just sell the things I don't need for whatever price I choose." Sorry, Yoshida moment. =p

"the fair price" isn't whatever you decide to charge for it. That's just your price. The two are totally unrelated.

@op... so basically... the economy is working? I mean, I've worked for companies before where part of my job was going literally next door, finding out what my competitors were selling stuff for, and then undercutting them with daily sales prices. What your describing to me is... normal?

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

@op... so basically... the economy is working? I mean, I've worked for companies before where part of my job was going literally next door, finding out what my competitors were selling stuff for, and then undercutting them with daily sales prices. What your describing to me is... normal?

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OMG undercutting is a part of RL!? Unacceptable!

Undercutting is not a problem of the markets, its a problem of how you value your goods.

If someone can produce the same product for cheaper to them and make a profit, or if they do not care for profit and just wish to move the product to free up space they will always sell it at a lower price.

The major thing that counters this type of event in the Real World is a thing called "Marketing" The iPod doesn't sell the most MP3 players in the world because its cheap and cheerful. It sells the most because its marketed properly. But it is still the most expensive MP3 Player based on $/GB on the market, yet still outsells everyone else.

In an MMO you can't use marketing to influence purchases so the only influence is price.

You might be mad that you no longer are making 300% profit on an item because someone found they only need to make 5% profit on the item to be happy. But the reality is they are not undercutting you, you are overpricing the item in most cases.

Im sorry but I like buying my items cheap

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

"the fair price" isn't whatever you decide to charge for it. That's just your price. The two are totally unrelated.

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So, a fair price would be undercutting someone else that is selling it?

What if no one is selling that item?

I'm not a greedy person and don't tend to sell things for more than I think they're worth. However, when I am searching for something I really want, the fair price is the price it is going for if it's the only thing there. If I'm in dire need, I will buy...or if it's something that is really just that rare, I will usually purchase it too.

However, if people are selling an item for millions of gil, and I find it is not a fair price, I won't buy it. How does this not make sense? The fair price is the price you set it at. People just have to determine if they want to sell their item or not, based on how much they put it up for.

@Eldaena:

Damnit it's still longer than I wanted it to be.. oh well, read on if you want.

In answer to your first question, yes. "fair price" isn't synonymous with what one might construe as the "morally correct price" whatever shape that concept might take. It is simply the price that, on average, people are willing to pay for an item. This is in contrast to the price at which, on average, people are willing to sell their item for. It is the price at which a sale is made (that is where the seller's price is acceptable to the buyer and a transaction is completed) that is the "fair price". You can and have full right to list your items for whatever you want, as do we all. If you never make a sale based on the price you've listed (even if as your second question asked, you are the only person selling), then you may as well never have listed the item in the first place. The price is as good as no price at all since it does not attract a single buyer.

the "fair price" has to be two sided. If the buyer says "I'll pay 1 gil for that" and no-one in their right mind would accept that price, then he/she is just throwing random meaningless numbers out. If the seller overestimates the worth of their item and says "I want a billion million gil for this or I won't sell it", than they'll get to keep their item until hell freezes over because they're also just throwing random meaningless numbers out. It only becomes a real and meaningful "fair price" when at least one full transaction is completed. That forms a very slim record of sales with only one price but that's a start. From that point on generally the "fair price" adjusts itself based on the volume of supply (ie. rarity) etc... But the prices along the way that form the relevant "fair price" of the day are only those values where transactions have been completed at the listed price, not those random deviations where people massively overestimate the worth of something (from the sellers perspective). The "take it or leave it" articulation of what construes a "fair price" is a touch too one sided. But as I said earlier, we're all free to list things for whatever random value we feel like listing them for. If nobody ever buys your item and you keep re-listing it, the only person's time wasted is your own, and that's just fine.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

That's why as I've ranked up my Carpenter to 30, I have never made a single mask. I've made lots of javelins and arrows and I sell every single one. If you choose to grind on something that has no market value, that's not my fault. As long as I can sell for 26 gil / arrow or mre to cover the cost of supplies then I'm happy, and I'll keep reducing my prices down to 26 gil / arrow to make sure my inventory turns over quick. If prices fall below 26 gil / arrow, then I'll move on to a different synth that will sustain me buying replacement mats so that I can keep synthing without taking a loss.

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That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

@op... so basically... the economy is working? I mean, I've worked for companies before where part of my job was going literally next door, finding out what my competitors were selling stuff for, and then undercutting them with daily sales prices. What your describing to me is... normal?

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Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.



Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

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Does my customer have a screen showing the price of my item and the price of my competitors item. That's a very good question, and a very valid point.

In fact, they do. Many of them do, at least. Certainly, I use my cellphone to price shop. Even aside from all the apps for all the different cell phones, a couple pokes and prods on my cell phone will tell me the price of, say, Final Fantasy XIV at all the local game stores in my zip code, or city, or state through a web browser.

I still fail to see the issue with this, which is to say that I understand your point of view; I do however believe it is wrong. While there needs to be some tweaking of the things that affect the economy, such as the removal of goods, more gil sinks to keep inflation down, etc., removal of the prices - i believe at least - is not an overall benefit to the economy.

It is always about the price. Why do you think people want their product to sell first? It is because there really isn't any demand for many of those item to justify paying whatever the crafters are asking for. Because the price currently is so much higher than the cost, many people want in on a piece of the delicious market, and make too many item. It is all about the price. High price, low cost= very high profit. High profit = many supplier, high price = low demand, High supply, low demand = slow inventory overturn rate = undercutting and price war.

Do you know what will render the demand even lower? removing the price in search and making it take much longer to go to each retainer and see which one is cheapest. The longer search time will become an opportunity cost, a deterrent for buyer which will further lower demand.

Seeing as how you can undercut other people back and it is still worth it for you to waste your time periodically checking the price, I have a feeling your profit margin is still very very high. Lower that profit margin and there will be less and less people willing to make and try to sell item. Item will sell faster and there will be much less incentive to undercut you. For a generic product in a perfectly competitive market, the profit shouldn't be more than 10%.

Seriously, don't expect to make a killing selling thing load of other people can make. I see no reason why SE should make a very fraustrating game even more fraustrating just to feed some people's greed.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

@Eldaena:

Damnit it's still longer than I wanted it to be.. oh well, read on if you want.

In answer to your first question, yes. "fair price" isn't synonymous with what one might construe as the "morally correct price" whatever shape that concept might take. It is simply the price that, on average, people are willing to pay for an item. This is in contrast to the price at which, on average, people are willing to sell their item for. It is the price at which a sale is made (that is where the seller's price is acceptable to the buyer and a transaction is completed) that is the "fair price". You can and have full right to list your items for whatever you want, as do we all. If you never make a sale based on the price you've listed (even if as your second question asked, you are the only person selling), then you may as well never have listed the item in the first place. The price is as good as no price at all since it does not attract a single buyer.

the "fair price" has to be two sided. If the buyer says "I'll pay 1 gil for that" and no-one in their right mind would accept that price, then he/she is just throwing random meaningless numbers out. If the seller overestimates the worth of their item and says "I want a billion million gil for this or I won't sell it", than they'll get to keep their item until hell freezes over because they're also just throwing random meaningless numbers out. It only becomes a real and meaningful "fair price" when at least one full transaction is completed. That forms a very slim record of sales with only one price but that's a start. From that point on generally the "fair price" adjusts itself based on the volume of supply (ie. rarity) etc... But the prices along the way that form the relevant "fair price" of the day are only those values where transactions have been completed at the listed price, not those random deviations where people massively overestimate the worth of something (from the sellers perspective). The "take it or leave it" articulation of what construes a "fair price" is a touch too one sided. But as I said earlier, we're all free to list things for whatever random value we feel like listing them for. If nobody ever buys your item and you keep re-listing it, the only person's time wasted is your own, and that's just fine.

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Thanks for being more clear on what I meant to say on my post. =p This is basically how I see the marketplace now.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

Does my customer have a screen showing the price of my item and the price of my competitors item. That's a very good question, and a very valid point.

In fact, they do. Many of them do, at least. Certainly, I use my cellphone to price shop. Even aside from all the apps for all the different cell phones, a couple pokes and prods on my cell phone will tell me the price of, say, Final Fantasy XIV at all the local game stores in my zip code, or city, or state through a web browser.

I still fail to see the issue with this, which is to say that I understand your point of view; I do however believe it is wrong. While there needs to be some tweaking of the things that affect the economy, such as the removal of goods, more gil sinks to keep inflation down, etc., removal of the prices - i believe at least - is not an overall benefit to the economy.

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It depends what you're shopping for I guess. If you're doing your groceries for example you're hardly going to look up each item because that's just a ridiculous amount of time wasted and you'd end up visiting multiple shops which in the end won't save you more than a few pounds/dollars. Only when I'm buying something expensive do I care enough to price compare. Price compare is forced on you for everything in FFXIV which is why you can't relate it to the real world.

I already conceded that almost everyone doesn't want prices removed and that making items rarer and adding gil sinks is probably a better solution. But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.

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Originally Posted by MarkH

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You act like removing prices would only benefit me. No, this is simply not true. It benefits everyone who ever sells anything. You get your fair price and you get your *** sold just as fast as those who have the ability to sit by the market wards all day. I fail to see how this makes me greedy because I'd probably end up selling some things slower as a result.

But you're just copy and pasting arguments that have been done to death and already answered a couple of posts above yours so I need say no more.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

It depends what you're shopping for I guess. If you're doing your groceries for example you're hardly going to look up each item because that's just a ridiculous amount of time wasted and you'd end up visiting multiple shops which in the end won't save you more than a few pounds/dollars. Only when I'm buying something expensive do I care enough to price compare. Price compare is forced on you for everything in FFXIV which is why you can't relate it to the real world.

I already conceded that almost everyone doesn't want prices removed and that making items rarer and adding gil sinks is probably a better solution. But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.



You act like removing prices would only benefit me. No, this is simply not true. It benefits everyone who ever sells anything. You get your fair price and you get your *** sold just as fast as those who have the ability to sit by the market wards all day. I fail to see how this makes me greedy because I'd probably end up selling some things slower as a result.

But you're just copy and pasting arguments that have been done to death and already answered a couple of posts above yours so I need say no more.

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removing the prices will increase the use of YG.com and people will not only have the prices but also the history :D
like it was before. Its annoying but people will use it... with so many crafters on all servers well see undercutting anyways.
I don't know why people don't get it...

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.



Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

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Now we're on the same page; you're right, for things like groceries that I get all the time, I don't check prices on a day-to-day basis, or a per-item basis.

However, I do remember what the market wards were like before prices were listed, and it wasn't pretty. There was little to no flow of goods. Regardless of whether or not there is inflation, the economy tanks when there is no flow of goods; this is something we had an object lesson in recently in the United States. When the economy tanked it kept tanking and stayed in the gutter because everyone stopped buying. It is getting better now, but the ramifications are still being felt.

Granted - our real world economy is infinitely more complex and there were a hell of a lot of other issues. But there are many parallels on many levels. And economy is an economy, no matter its size, and some basic rules are universal.

I honestly don't think that the price history is an issue. In fact, I very specifically think it was a needed fix to a problem. The current problem of undercutting I truly believe has more to do with the fact that it is extremely easy to undercut because it is way too easy to introduce items to the market.

Undercutting would not happen to the degree it does if there were higher demand. Demand is low because 1.) player base is low and 2.) player base is composed primarily of dedicated players with the ability to easily supply. If someone could sell something fast by listing their item at the same price as 10 other people, it would be a non-issue; those ten people would sell even if they did/didn't undercut each other. As it is now, only the lowest one or two people move goods.

This is an issue, I believe, that Yoshida is aware of. Indications seem to be that the materia system may address this issue in part, either by locking items to a player (thereby removing an item from the economy to some degree), or by destruction (possibly using finished items to create improvements to other items), or by some other means. At least, we can hope this is the case, because its needed!

Anyhow. Yeah. I think other solution will address the supply/demand issue, mitigating the undercutting. Remember, if 10 people want to buy your item, and will pay 100k for it, it doesn't matter if 9 people are selling it a 50k; one person will still buy it at 100k.

2 more cents.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.

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Hyperbole much?

Do you consider yourself to be the "small minority of people with common sense"?

The OP should crack open an econ 101 textbook, methinks. Sorry, but you just don't seem to understand how markets operate, either real or fictional. You seem to be trying to find a solution that consistently lets crafters overprice their wares by creating an artificial barrier to price checking without realizing that this in and of itself will tank the economy by zeroing out the demand.

OP, why is it that when your stuff don't sell, you don't think "Is my price so expensive that no one want to buy my item?" "Am I making so much profit that many other want in on the action?" "Why don't I cut my price in half so that more people can afford and want to buy my item?" and instead jump to conclusion that "The fault lie with the undercutter! They act like kids and camp the ward 24/7!" or "SE is at fault, showing people better deal and everyone no longer want to pay the price I demand!".

The problem is that the price are way to high comparing to the ingredient cost, I should know, a sprouting radical cost me roughly 25000 to make and i can sell them regularly for 100000, that's a 300% mark up, it used to be a 700% mark up until someone undercut me and i decides, why not halve my price? I'll still be making profit and hopefully it'll sell faster.

You say those undercutter are acting like a child, but I think the childish one is those who when faced with a problem, blame everyone but themselve and whine and cry for other to fix it for them.

The price in market search make it more convenient for people to buy things. It drive up demand, I for one periodically do searchs for Lightning/Fire cluster, even when I have no use for them, and if it's lower than 20000, I buy. If the price are not there, I wouldn't bother looking until I need them. (Now I have over 100 Fire+Lightning Cluster without the will to break them ._.). The price of Radiant Lightning Moraine has also gone up because of the price search, it use to be that 5000ish is kinda expensive, right now 10000 is normal, and very few people ever sell them for less.

Seriously, stop thinking "And I could keep making so much profit too, if it weren't for you meddling kids" and start thinking, why is it worth it for these people to undercut me? Is it because the profit is wayy too high? Is it because the price is so high it drive potential buyer away and now I have to compete for a share of a rapidly shrinking market?

Havent read all of this but I agree whole heartedly with the OP.

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Originally Posted by Takeshi_Eiketsu

Havent read all of this but I agree whole heartedly with the OP.

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I'd suggest reading the whole thing because several people have brought up several very good reasons why the OP doesn't know what he's talking about.

And several people have brought up points that have been repeatedly destroyed throughout the thread, which is why I just skipped over MarkH's post entirely.

There's an interesting experiment on this taking place on my server right now. People are flooding the market wards with their trash NQ crab bows so none of the HQ bows are appearing in the price list because there's more than 20 NQs. I'm not yet selling these bows so I can't really comment on how it's working, however I hope to have some experience within a couple of weeks.

But as it's a new page and people on here generally don't read more than the first post and last page of threads I'll once again say I am currently more in favour of reducing supply of items to meet demand rather than removing prices. Make all raw materials 4-5 times as rare and there won't be a problem any more. You won't undercut my logs and ores because my logs and ores will be selling as fast as I put them up. The fun thing is you won't know how to price them unless you're experienced in the market because you guys don't want price history either. But anything that's a disadvantage to you when selling is an advantage to me.

You are literally trying to solve a problem that only exists in your head. Yes, there are certainly problems with the retainer/market ward system, but removing features or further introducing hurdles to doing business will only make it worse. You've had this explained to you several times by several people throughout this thread.

EDIT: Look at the number of likes my last post in this thread got compared to your OP. You just haven't thought this through and are adamant on your stance despite people trying to explain to you why you're wrong.

The only thing destroyed by your argument is your credibility. Your last few replies (asking us “do you think people care about losing 1000-2000 by undercutting 10-20 gil”) basically amount to saying “I don’t think so!”. Your counterargument demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the point many people are making.

No one thinks that by undercutting you for 10-20 gil a piece, it suddenly make the price acceptable. This battle is not between you and the undercutter, but rather a battle with you and those undercutters on one side struggling against the market force on the other. A market force that seek to stabilize the price at an equilibrium where demand meets supply.

Repeating the mantra that you have “destroyed” our argument doesn’t make it true. Even you must believe that by now, hence your new proposal. A supply side solution Enron tried to pull back in the 90s, which caused quite a bit of a problem. The same problem that we face now with the sudden shortage of food.

Your proposal will have little effect on the crafter that are already making those weapon and other tools. Let's look at your Crab Bow for example, the only lumber and ore require is 2 oak lumber, 1 iron ingot, 1 bronze nugget, 1 bronze wire (for Oak Composite Bow) and 1 iron spike, which mean that with 1 oak log, 4 iron ore, 4 bronze ore (+item from monster), you can make 2 crab bows. What it will affect most if those still skilling up, those who actually need hundreds upon hundreds of logs.

Being discourage by the scarcity and difficulty of obtaining these material, it is very much possible that new player won't skill up any craft all together, lowering the demand for log. Unfortunately people who are still skilling up, who have a lot of desire for logs do not have very much gil to afford the log if price are too high, and those who already have finished skilling up and can afford to buy them, whatever the price, doesn't have the desire for very many logs at all. (But of course this barrier to trade will benefit you! Mr. R50 Carpenter!)

And, because unlike in the real world where commodity are truly limited and the barrier to entering the mining and logging business are quite substantial, there is nothing to stop people to flock to harvest these ores and logs if they seem to be selling well (I've seen rank 15 botanist harvesting for Raven Black Moss near Camp Dragon Head). Again, the market forces are working against you.

This will not also address the lack of demand. Currently in the game, with very few perishable resources, once a character have bought a weapon or armor, that character forever is no longer part of the demand for the good. So unless a new character join your server, or someone decides to start leveling a new job, your market is forever shrinking.

Of course, it is quite hard to accurately perdict what would happens with a sudden change in the quantity of supply. But I would like to give you an example in the Luminium Ore, to show that by simply being rare will not make an item sell fast or at a high price.

The Luminium Ore in FFXI was as hard, if not harder, to find than the Khroma Ore. They both drop from the same ISNM at about the same rate, but at least Khroma is minable from Mount Zhalyom, which is infinitely more mineable than Halvung where Luminium drop. Yet for years, one sell for 500000 while the other 3000. Luminium ore weren’t completely useless either, like lumber and ore in XIV, it can be use for skilling up craft (even if the end product isn't of very much use) and yet the price did not raise until SE introduce new and much more desirable use for the ore. With the new update and sudden increase in demand, the price for Luminium ore jump from 3000 to over 50000 in a few months.

I apologize to everyone for this wall of text, I know it won't do much good and you-know-who will reply with an ever more creative "I don't think so!" again, thinking that repeating it over and over to every counter-argument will somehow "destroy" them and validate his.

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Originally Posted by MarkH

The only thing destroyed by your argument is your credibility. Your last few replies (asking us “do you think people care about losing 1000-2000 by undercutting 10-20 gil”) basically amount to saying “I don’t think so!”. Your counterargument demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the point many people are making.

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Well said.

The way to economic prosperity is less arbitrary controls and hurdles that get in the way of what players want to do. Let the market be driven by real knowledge, not by uncertainty.

The market should be driven by a Marxist central command style economy and comrade Rentalhamster should be placed in charge of it.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

And several people have brought up points that have been repeatedly destroyed throughout the thread, which is why I just skipped over MarkH's post entirely.

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So despite the fact that you admitted some time ago that the community is clearly against your suggestion, you think you've "destroyed" the other arguments. I suppose everyone opposes your idea because your arguments are so strong that everyone is intimidated?

And who are these "several people"? I don't see anyone here arguing in favor of your suggestion other than you.

While I'm sure Xenor would prefer that Takeshi not read the thread, I would encourage him to make up his own mind about who's got the better side of the argument.

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. . . I'll once again say I am currently more in favour of reducing supply of items to meet demand rather than removing prices. Make all raw materials 4-5 times as rare and there won't be a problem any more. You won't undercut my logs and ores because my logs and ores will be selling as fast as I put them up.

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Again, this shows a remarkable ignorance when it comes to simple economics. How would SE reduce the supply of goods? Reduce the drop rates? That doesn't actually reduce the supply. It just increases the amount of time it takes to gather the same number of materials. So you'll have to spend 4-5 times as long to get the same number of logs, but the supply will be the same. You wouldn't be reducing the supply, you'd just be reducing the rewards for every other DoL and DoW, so apparently the rewards for Xenor can be artificially high.

The only way to actually decrease the supply would be if it were only possible to have a certain number of yew logs in existence at a certain time. So if there were 1000 yew logs in existence, DoL would be unable to gather yew logs no matter how many times they tried. Which would make it impossible -- or at least unprofitable -- to level DoL. And then people wouldn't be able to level their DoH because there weren't any logs available. So it would make it impossible -- or at least unprofitable -- to level DoH.

So this suggestion boils down to whether you want to make it impossible to for everyone else to level their jobs, just so Xenor can keep charging really high prices for his goods. This is Final Fantasy XIV, not Final Fantasy Xenor. There's an entire community out there besides just Xenor.

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The fun thing is you won't know how to price them unless you're experienced in the market because you guys don't want price history either.

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Or unless people walk around the market wards and look at the price other people are selling for. Or unless you have access to the internet. Because sites like Yellow Gremlin have a built-in "price history."

So removing prices will just force people to use outside resources, which will take more time, but it won't reduce people to being helpless idiots.

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But anything that's a disadvantage to you when selling is an advantage to me.

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And that's the crux of this entire dispute. You only want what's good for you. You don't want the wards to work efficiently. You don't want the game to be easy to play. You don't want other people to be rewarded for their work. You want it to be as difficult and unrewarding as possible, because that's the only way you can charge artificially inflated prices. You want to make gobs of money for yourself, and screw everything and everyone else.

I disagree. And it seems like most other people disagree with you, too.

I'm glad people buy stuff that I put in the wards.. had to do a little undercutting :).

I tend to agree with the original poster but I may have a different reason, people who find items at high level and have no idea what they are worth are selling level 50 gear for less than the price of level 10 gear, on my server a cavalier chainmail is going for 5000 gil thats one quest at level 5. Come on?

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Originally Posted by Layander

I tend to agree with the original poster but I may have a different reason, people who find items at high level and have no idea what they are worth are selling level 50 gear for less than the price of level 10 gear, on my server a cavalier chainmail is going for 5000 gil thats one quest at level 5. Come on?

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Its the players choice to sell something for dirt cheap, just to get rid of of for somewhat more than vendoring it. Even tho, I vendored that cavalier's chainmail from that quest >.> and every other quest item. People tend to want them dyed.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

The market should be driven by a Marxist central command style economy and comrade Rentalhamster should be placed in charge of it.

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Absolutely. The accursed bourgeois shall finally get their comeuppance. Those who do not comply shall be sent to the Chocobo guano mines.

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Originally Posted by Layander

I tend to agree with the original poster but I may have a different reason, people who find items at high level and have no idea what they are worth are selling level 50 gear for less than the price of level 10 gear, on my server a cavalier chainmail is going for 5000 gil thats one quest at level 5. Come on?

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....so wait, let me see if I have this straight here - your stance is that people occasionally clearly don't know what things are worth when they're setting prices, so your solution to this is to remove the only way to check what things are currently worth?

...Did I trip and land in Bizarro-land or something? The OP is a terrible idea for a lot of reasons and your reason for supporting it is literally one of those reasons?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Absolutely. The accursed bourgeois shall finally get their comeuppance. Those who do not comply shall be sent to the Chocobo guano mines.

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lol capital idea.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

lol capital idea.

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I see what you did there, you profiteering, proletariat-oppressing slug!

FryIseeWhatYouDidThere.jpeg

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/626/original/ohoq9.jpg

As a crafter, I completely disagree with OP.

Undercutting is part of a healthy economy as I'm sure many of you already know. Also, being able to know what the vendor is selling the item for before you buy it is only fair.

If people are selling an item for less than you, find ways to cut your costs to sell your products for the lowest price. If you cannot, find another item to sell.

If you are simply complaining about the fact that you have to take time to undercut those who undercut you, I've zero sympathy for you.

Generally, I find the only people complaining about undercutting are the ones trying to rape the population by price gouging. A normal crafter will simply undercut in return, if it is financially feasible to do so.

It always amazes me to see crafters in the wards trying to take advantage of newbies. 75k for a level 9 dagger, 120k for a level 15 staff. If they think everyone else has forgotten about the item, they rack up the price trying to squeeze the noobs for gils.

Just a heads up for anyone who does this on my server, don't. I make it a game to undercut you until the item is back down to selling at a reasonable price. Yes, that's right. I'm an evil undercutter and I do it on purpose. Deal with it.

P.S. Thank you for making me wealthy

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Undercutting is starting to become a big problem, as if the economy isn't bad enough already.

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Is the demand greater than the supply? If so, then yes.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

You have people who put their *** up at the lowest price on the list and then sit there camping the wards all day undercutting anyone who puts their stuff back up at a lower price than them. They've got to have their *** sell first no matter what.

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That's how they choose to spend their play time, you have the same option.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

This drives prices right down. I have a policy of undercutting the undercutter, whereby anyone who undercuts me is undercut back until a point where I'm better off buying their *** and putting my price back up to a reasonable level and profiting off their crap too. But I don't have time to sit camping the wards all day to sell my *** during the ten minutes that they aren't spamming the search to under cut people.

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Wait, what?!
So you are undercutting everyone else, then you get upset when someone undercuts you.
Ha ha, justice has been served.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Whoever decided showing prices in the item search was a good idea is a fool if they didn't see this coming. XI's economy works fine without this. The system should show a price history not a price list. Something needs changing.

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This is because no one wants to spend 3 hours looking for a good price on an item.
Considering you have people in the proper ward selling at 3-10x the average it's pretty silly not to.
Players pretty much demanded that SE reduce the amount of time that had to be spent searching the wards.
I'm sure you have seen some benefit from this as you are undercutting.

I'm going to lock this thread because people are just rehashing old arguments after not reading the thread and I can't be bothered to come in here and copy and paste responses to lazy people every week.