For all you warrior tanks out there... end game we are not viable.

Warriors +15% healing and 25% more HP

Paladins -20% damage

Warriors are just as viable as PLDs....I have friends on Gilgamesh that 2 war tanked Cadeceus

BUt PLD make better MT single Target Tanks and Warriors are better off tanks and aoe tanks IMO

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Originally Posted by Serade

Doesn't change the fact we take an insane amount of damage compared to a paladin. If you think warriors are fine you're just jerking yourself here to post that you're on Turn 4.

Not impressive for one thing and you ignore everything that has been posted. Go brag somewhere else loser.

tl;dr petty bragging from an idiot.

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You want proof? here is server 1st ADS: http://www.twitch.tv/lleuca/c/2892948

I agree with a lot of the points here. Yes the PLD cooldowns allow him to much more easily control how much damage he is taking which makes managing heals and rough group situations easier.

Warriors get chunked hard and can only respond with reactive burst healing. We can take the hits due to our massive HP, but there is more pressure on the heals to top us off quickly.

Does this automatically mean every group is required to have 2 PLDs? Not in my view. The very next fight in coil 4 elevator involves managing large numbers of adds which is something the WAR excels at.

A lot depends on the fight mechanics. Snake in coil 1 does favor the PLD as a tank, but that hardly makes the WAR an un-viable class.

damn that thing was a beast lol

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

There are 2+ flavors of tank: one is most defense oriented with least damage output, the other is somewhat less defensive and higher damage output. I'll call them PLD and WAR to keep it easy.

Either:
1. WAR will be fully adequate as a tank in toughest settings. Then because of the higher damage WAR is always preferred.
*or*
2. WAR will be inadequate as a tank in toughest settings. It may be fine in lower settings or when the WAR outgears the fight. But then PLD is heavily preferred.

Best game design is to probably nudge them as close together as possible. But that's not easy, and it's looking like #2 is actually the case here currently. Also keep in mind that this balance can change at any patch.

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Hi Rhaze,

Definitely. For those that didn't get to play Final Fantasy XIV 1.0, it's been an ongoing battle with players decrying Yoshi P for "Warriors are too weak" & "Paladin is too weak!", and it changed from major patch to patch.

I still remember Warriors with Steel Cyclone spam in 1.0. For a while, they were so OP and did so much damage, it didn't matter what damage reduction Paladins had (in fact, some content had multiple Warriors and just skipped inviting other DPS). Then Yoshi P nerfed Steel Cyclone dramatically. And then 2.0 launches. We'll see what happens next. :)

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Originally Posted by Vic_Viper

Warriors get chunked hard and can only respond with reactive burst healing. We can take the hits due to our massive HP, but there is more pressure on the heals to top us off quickly.

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WAR and PAL receive the same percentage damage taken from any given source. The issue with WAR isn't in the survival of single big hits. It's in the amount of healing required over the long term: since WARs have only 15% +healing when it would require 25% to actually equal the benefits of Shield Oath, WAR requires 8.7% more healing over any period of time than a PAL does (the default self healing from improved Bloodbath and Storm's Edge are a rough approximation of the PAL's ability to block rather than a capability that makes up for greater external healing requirements).

It's a common misconception that being weaker is the same as not being viable. It's pretty easy to prove that a class is viable by simply seeing someone complete content as that class in that job. Viability, however, is not what should be striven for as the crux of balanced (i.e. good) class design. Viability is simply the bare minimum performance that a class needs to achieve. A class that is twice as effective as another isn't a balanced game construct, even if both are capable of clearing content.

As it stands, both PAL and WAR are viable tanks. As it stands, PAL is also the better tank than a WAR thanks to the mean mitigation discrepancy. The supposition that somehow WAR's higher damage somehow justifies lower mitigation is completely ignorant of what balance actually entails, considering that you don't bring a tank to deal damage (nor does the difference in PAL and WAR damage actually enough to make a noticeable impact, especially given that the benefit gets diluted the more DPS you are running with; without a parser, you'd never notice a difference between a PAL's and a WAR's damage in an 8+ man run).

Yes, PAL needs to get a bit of a damage/threat boost, but damage/threat is a minor concern compared to the mitigation differences between the two classes. An 8.7% difference seems comparatively minor *now*, but as content gets tighter and tighter, that difference is going to get ever more noticeable.

Why is it that people are saying that the WAR is inferior? Why isn't any of the potential blame being put on the healers? How do we know these healers aren't less geared than the WARs? How do we know they've just been too used to healing the lower level content and just simply aren't prepared for the actual endgame?

I'm sorry but there's too many variables, not to mention the DPS could also be to blame if you need a boss to die before a specific mechanic pops up that will wreck the tank and they aren't hitting the mark. So why is it solely the fault of the WAR for not picking a PLD instead?

This is a really odd argument to make. PLD has a truck load more of CDs to survive off of any encounter. But if that PLD is as geared as the OP, that CD means nothing once it's gone. You're talking about a few seconds out of a fight that you're praying to stay alive with. Besides the gear you have curently is not even optimized for tanking. Half of your accessories and other slots are normal crappy DPS pieces. No where near enough mitigation or farming done to even begin to cry "Broken Class". Plenty of streamers on Twitchtv that have full Darklight, in every slot and their Relic weapon, making good attempts in Bahamuts Coil. Surprised this thread event lived for so long on this silly argument. This is like comparing Warrior and Druid tanking in Wow back in Vanilla/BC

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Originally Posted by Kelethar

This is a really odd argument to make. PLD has a truck load more of CDs to survive off of any encounter. But if that PLD is as geared as the OP, that CD means nothing once it's gone. You're talking about a few seconds out of a fight that you're praying to stay alive with.

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Except that's exactly how many raid fights work. They involve popping cooldowns before predictable damage phases, e.g., Sarth-3D breath or something. Otherwise, you might as well chain your cooldowns together. But wait! Paladins have better mitigation too AND better "oh shit" buttons. I know math is hard, but do try to read the earlier posts in the thread. It's simple arithmetic.

The only good cooldown warriors innately have is Thrill of Battle--an actual "oh shit" button. The others are basically meant to be used off cooldown. Convalescence is another great one, but it's obviously inferior to the paladin version.

Edit: Inner Beast-Infuriate is pretty good if you can avoid overhealing.

Inner Beast-Infuriate is pretty good if you can avoid overhealing, yes, but the main issue with it is that effective use of it requires limiting the use of all other warrior job skills. They need to give a reason to make the other wrath-based skills worth using, and make the usage of wrath as an actual resource more dynamic, as opposed to just using it as a quick "oh shit" button.

Defiance/Wrath has the potential to really reinforce the idea of Warrior being a class that constantly straddles the line between survivability and offensive prowess, but it's really not being used effectively right now. As much as I enjoy the class now, there's a lot they can do to make it more interesting, as well as more effective.

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Originally Posted by JiyuSteelheart

Warriors +15% healing and 25% more HP

Paladins -20% damage

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well let me ask you something

As a tank, would you rather just sit on your hands and not take 20% of all the damage in a fight, or would you rather have more health and +healing which is not always active and take time build back up that will be circumvented by fast and heavy damage in addition to your job to survive being in the hands of another player?

I don't mind Paladins having an edge, or "flavor" as it were. But Paladins have more than an edge.

"Paladins make better MT and Warriors make better AE tank"

Please enlighten me, tell me how Warriors are better AE tanks than Paladins. Or are you just trying to say a mediocre Warrior is better at AE tanking than a mediocre Paladin?

I have killed everything up to Garuda and there was barely any need for a second tank at all. DRG could have done what I did. Ifrit was easy sauce. And apparently you only need 1 tank for Titan.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any of this content people keep talking about that even requires another tank. Like Hydra? Maybe. But so far that's it.

I mean lets say even if there were a reason to have an offtank for any of that content, explain to me how a little bit of damage, a healing bonus that may not always be up and a handful of crap cooldowns and 1 decent one is better than a handful of premier mitigation tools.

I'm gonna play Warrior no matter what you say, because I just don't give a you know what and Warrior is the only class worth primarily playing in any game ever, but I think it's important not to spread misinformation and keep parroting bullshit.

Aside from Defiance not granting Healing Bonus baseline and just being crap anyway when compared to Shield Oath, I am fine with where we are at. I don't care if we get buffed.

Because it seems to me so far that everything is so easy anyway that all of PLDs abilities amount to little more than cushioning for sloppy play.

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Originally Posted by Vic_Viper

You want proof? here is server 1st ADS: http://www.twitch.tv/lleuca/c/2892948

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Hmm... She's pretty hot.

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Originally Posted by Furio

Hmm... She's pretty hot.

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seconded

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Originally Posted by Voraxxis

Not surprised at all. I started getting this feeling at level 41 on Stone Vigil. When I was getting spammed with Cure 2 to be kept alive while PLD tanks get Cure 1 half the time and are fine. It's sad really.

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I'll never understand comments like this.


It's not sad at all. PLD is suppose to be the best tank.

People keep complaining like this then PLD ends up becoming worthless and no one plays them and everyone complains about PLD not being able to tank anything.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

Because it seems to me so far that everything is so easy anyway that all of PLDs abilities amount to little more than cushioning for sloppy play.

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...o-much-win.jpg

<3

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Originally Posted by SolAeternus

PLD is suppose to be the best tank.

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Is there *anything* to support this except for the conjecture of PALs? Intelligent game design says that you shouldn't design any one class within a given role to be better than the others. The devs themselves have stated that they want the classes to be *balanced* within those roles.

Both WAR and PAL *should* be able to tank equally well. This means that they should be able to maintain threat roughly on par with each other and mitigate damage roughly on par with each other. Otherwise, one gets played and used disproportionately more than the other thanks to gameplay inequalities influencing player decision. As it stands, PAL is explicitly better: both tanks can generate more than enough threat (which is all that really matters where a tank is concerned; redundant threat is, just that, redundant), but one tank is explicitly better at mitigation. That's not a balanced state and, as such, not something that should be considered an acceptable state of affairs.

Hell, it's not like there's even much question of what needs to be done: give WARs roughly 10% more self healing, either on Defiance itself or by buffing Wrath stacks to 5% instead of 3% and everything will be golden.

Just wondering but wouldn't it also workout if they increase our damage output enough to make up for the lack of heal percentage since our heal is based off our damage delt? This would also generate threat faster too would it not? I'm not entirely sure on all this so I'm asking a question before I come back to see tons of flame posts or people calling me retarded this is a question....So treat it as such.

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Originally Posted by BIGBADWOLF

Just wondering but wouldn't it also workout if they increase our damage output enough to make up for the lack of heal percentage since our heal is based off our damage delt? This would also generate threat faster too would it not? I'm not entirely sure on all this so I'm asking a question before I come back to see tons of flame posts or people calling me retarded this is a question....So treat it as such.

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No. We only have three skills that heal via attacks. Bloodbath, Storm's Path, and Inner Beast. The heals granted by Bloodbath and Storm's Path are so small that they might as well be insignificant, and to increase our damage output to the point of making them any degree of functional would require us to hit harder than most DPS. Inner Beast, while a solid heal, especially once buffed with Berserk/Inner Release, can only be used with full stacks of wrath, and generally, you'll want to save those until you have Infuriate up (in order to maximize healer's efficiency), so you can't use it very often either. Even using it as much as possible, you won't be able to mitigate damage done to you on a meaningful and consistent level. You're looking at around 15 seconds between each heal, and that's just too much for what you get to be considered viable.

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Originally Posted by SolAeternus

I'll never understand comments like this.


It's not sad at all. PLD is suppose to be the best tank.

People keep complaining like this then PLD ends up becoming worthless and no one plays them and everyone complains about PLD not being able to tank anything.

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So... kind of like WAR right now. So what makes it appropriate for WAR to be worthless, but not for PLD? They both are meant to fulfill the same roll. Each class should be able to excel at different things and use different methods, but both should be able to function competently, and largely with similar to equal efficiency, within the same roll, since they are built with the same role in mind.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

Aside from Defiance not granting Healing Bonus baseline and just being crap anyway when compared to Shield Oath, I am fine with where we are at. I don't care if we get buffed.

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I think that if Defiance were given healing bonus baseline, preferably increased to 20-25%, most of the issues go away.

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Because it seems to me so far that everything is so easy anyway that all of PLDs abilities amount to little more than cushioning for sloppy play.

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I tanked Fennin Ro on my Shaman when Planes of Power was current content before we killed Quarm. I watch an Enchanter tank Xegony. Clearly, there was no problem because everything was so easy for a highly organized raiding at the front lines for edge content.

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Originally Posted by Vic_Viper

Warriors get chunked hard and can only respond with reactive burst healing.

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Hello,

And yes, I agree completely. I've been giving this thread a lot more consideration, I've gone back and taken a look at the skills of a WAR. While I will be trying to build a set up to get that magic 9999 number, expecting a healer to supply that is unrealistic. Other people will likely need healing too and there's only so much MP that a healer has.

My conclusion is, while stacking VIT for Max HP is important, it will only take you so far. WAR self healing is infinite HP for as long as the monster lives. Currently, I have over 7k as a base, but my self heals have not scaled as much, making it more difficult on healers (well, except SCH, you beasts). Therefore, as much as some folks will decry this decision, I'll be foregoing any further acquisitions in favor of Vit and moving to STR instead.

What led me to this conclusion? An honest assessment of the limits of VIT as well as realizing that WAR skills refer to STR, Attacks and attack potency for about 16 times and Max HP only 4 times. While VIT is still important and I'm not going to drop below 7k, adding another 2k HP is a pointless, climbing-it-because-its-there, exercise. At endgame, WARs need to maximize self-healing. WARs need to maximize Damage Dealt.

Self healing relies almost entirely on damage dealt. Damage Dealt relies on Stats like Strength, Accuracy, Crit Rate, Skill Speed and Determination. On the AF2 stats, for every 8 points of Vitality there is 7 points of STR. In other gear, the stats are similar, with Vit contributing only a few points more than STR was. So WAR cannot be viable, I believe, without contributing as much points to your Attack potency as you do to VIT.

I had planned to go for more DL jewelry of Fending, but I've since changed my mind. My neck and my ear slots were the next to get upgraded and I've decided to go with Maiming or Striking...and probably both since I will definitely want to stack Skill Speed if there was a SCH in the group. (You beasts!)

TBH I disagree heavily with buying darklight strength pieces. You are giving up the WAR's best survivability option (HP) for a modest increase to inner-beast which should only used in reaction to big attacks followed by infuriate in order to maintain the heal buff. Trading hundreds of HP to get like 100 or less extra lifesteal isn't worth it. With lower HP all you are really doing is giving healers even less time to top you off before the next big attack. You are also making skills like stoneskin and thrill of battle less useful.

Well, Inner Beast is only one part of it. To be honest, WARs best option to get topped off before a big hit is Wrath V and Thrill of Battle. Wrath V is going to give you more Healing than Inner Beast. Thrill of Battle is going to give you 20% more HP total. That's why I'm saying that Vit is very useful, to a point. All other self heals rely on Damage Dealt. While I'm not advocating against stacking Vit, I'm just saying that it will only take you so far.

The Max HP you can have is 9999, but self-heal, is infinite. I'm looking forward to exploring this option.

If it doesn't work out, Philo Tomestones are easy to get.

EDIT: As much as some folks will decry this decision!!

EDIT: 2 I'll only be losing 16 VIT with my choker upgrades. I'll immediately regain that when I upgrade my hands to Warrior's Gauntlets. I feel this will not impact my survive ability as much and may enhance it. Must try....

Yes at 9999 HP vit becomes less useful, but until you get there you need every ounce of survivability you can get in coil, especially since we are technically a gear tier below where we should be.

But yeah no harm in experimenting. Just remember that Keep is patched now and people won't be able to speed run it anymore.

I've learned that its largely useless to debate with WARs who are dead set on building strength even though they are playing a tank where the vit stat is 25% more powerful and is their only means of pre-emptively dealing with big boss attacks aside from foresight and Thrill of battle (HP based).

I don't disagree with that. AK teaches that certain gear is for certain roles. I'm not going to be dogmatic about anything above level 60 though. I'm not dead set on it, I'm just going to see how much difference it makes. If you're right, you're right...

I'm sure you feel that Vit is the be all and end all of WAR. However, I think the more we get into end game, the more we'll see the necessity of multiple gear sets. I don't think it is a poor investment in time and tomestones to experiment with possibilities.

I see a ton of whine and whatnot...... Guys, there is an easy way to fix this. If you are not happy as a war, LEVEL as a Pally. For goodness sake, you can SWITCH CLASSES. If the so called grass is greener, then shut up and switch over.

There is a reason they are not balanced. A pally is protective, and a War is offensive. That is just the way things are. Balancing everything just makes it to where no one will be able to do anything and it will all be nerfed. I mean look at EQ 1 and EQ 2 and what balancing did to those games.

Well i'm curious about Titan because i'm have full str points and was wondering if maybe i should switch to vit to get it done. i mostly off tank so im trying to decide if i can get by w/o changing it? Working on Bravura atm. and yet to get darklight so i sit about 5400. in dungeons

So I'm a bit confused. I get the math that shows warriors need more healing, but don't they also have self heals that a paladin does not have? It seems like they are getting ignored in all this discussion unless of course I'm missing something, which is possible.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

So I'm a bit confused. I get the math that shows warriors need more healing, but don't they also have self heals that a paladin does not have? It seems like they are getting ignored in all this discussion unless of course I'm missing something, which is possible.

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When healers are already heal spamming you, your own self heals are more likely than not to just be lost as overhealing - making them pointless. Not to mention if you use Inner Beast you lose your +heal debuff. Imagine if whenever a PLD used a skill every 20s, they lost 10% of Shield Oath's reduction.

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

Well i'm curious about Titan because i'm have full str points and was wondering if maybe i should switch to vit to get it done. i mostly off tank so im trying to decide if i can get by w/o changing it? Working on Bravura atm. and yet to get darklight so i sit about 5400. in dungeons

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5400 is way to little. You need at least 6500-7k to survive Auto Attack Rock Buster and Mountain buster.

its based on warth stacks you need 5 in order to use inner beast. its part of the reason im currently favoring my war over paladin. Also 2nd Wind heals pretty nice on war i get about 400-600 most times. i try to balance Storm path 2nd wind and inner beast to take some of the load of the healer but i can be tough. I've yet to get to bahamuts coil and i have no intent to do it til i have full AF+1.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

5400 is way to little. You need at least 6500-7k to survive Auto Attack Rock Buster and Mountain buster.

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Thanks guess i'll go switch to vit for it. kind of makes me sad but oh well whats can you do. life of a tank. have hp take many hits lol

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Hello,

My conclusion is, while stacking VIT for Max HP is important, it will only take you so far. WAR self healing is infinite HP for as long as the monster lives. Currently, I have over 7k as a base, but my self heals have not scaled as much, making it more difficult on healers (well, except SCH, you beasts). Therefore, as much as some folks will decry this decision, I'll be foregoing any further acquisitions in favor of Vit and moving to STR instead.

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unless they change the heal from inner beast into shield, right now stacking str and skillspeed to maximize inner beast is useless.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

I get the math that shows warriors need more healing, but don't they also have self heals that a paladin does not have? It seems like they are getting ignored in all this discussion unless of course I'm missing something, which is possible.

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WARs don't get a shield to block with. WAR self heals are the effective equivalent of *that*, not the discrepancy in healing received.

Soo what is the point ? I'm trying to 4 days still trying to found a group for HM titan but ppl just said prefer a paladin because have demage mitigation ... HM titan impossible with DF pugs ( Maybe a little ) Premade group demanding paladin for tank role. I said i can come for dps slot they said you cant make a dps like a Dragoon or Monk. Soo what i'm ? I'm not a tank like paladin and i'm not a dps like dragoon or monk...

SE thinking what about for this ? They do not thinking before desing this instance classes just wonder ?? If i have a option for tranfer class to another class do not stay 1 minute to warrior. If you thinking make a tank just go to the Paladin.

Note: I do not say Warrior is a bad tank I can handle everything in the game but people is thinking about this for warrior. just i say what I experience ...