Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

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Originally Posted by dbrewer225

i hope the devs are reading this thread cuase paldain really needs to be able to have dmg reduction traits to help tank. its bad when paladins like in ff11 needs shadows to survive. i hope that even with all classes being revamped that we see a big difference cause the formulas in version 1.0 didnt make no sense at all. you can have all the def in the world and it still wouldnt make a bit of difference. so i hope in 2.0 we see stats actally play a role instaed of i pump 50 vit into paladin and i get 10 hp added to my paladin and 5 defense added to my base stats.

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But PLD's do have damage mitigating / surviving abilities. That is the only reason why they can tank end game...


Rampart, Aegis Boon, Tempered Will, Shield Bash, Holy Succor, Divine Veil, Hallowed Ground.

Raion Hellfire summons essense of Ifrit.

Ha, there's your tank! Ifrit will defend us!

We need more than one tanking class...please do not nerf war just to make pld more desirable.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

I mean let's be honest, WAR can tank, and help kill crap faster which results in a better chance of speedrun. FACT

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way to try to turn opinion into fact. end game shells that were doing the highest content including the speed runs were using pld because a skilled and well geared pld is a better tank than a geared and skilled war FACT

just because war can do damage, but not hold hate as well as a pld does not make fights go quicker FACT

if your dd's have to hold off or just stop attacking because they are about to pull hate from the war that slows down the fight FACT. if the dd's can go all out and not take hate from the pld because he holds hate better than the war does then it speeds up the fight FACT

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Originally Posted by CptnGamble

We need more than one tanking class...please do not nerf war just to make pld more desirable.

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Exactly, War= Back-up Tank PLD= Main

As long as a PLD can hold hate on Multiple Mobs ( or Singular) and holds it, Anything else about WAR is fine.

I'll just say what I've been saying since 1.0:

Make a roster of jobs that can tank, not "niche use" BS. WAR and PLD should both be equally viable for content, as we'd gain more from inclusive dynamics and design. This way people don't get forced to play specific jobs and instead can play what they want to play.

Everybody has really good input, and being an aspiring elite player, when i choose to be tank based on the information provided it will be a PLD. I do agree that a warrior is the Robin to the Batman tank (PLD), so to all you Robins out there: when Batman suits up, you fall behind.

They have thier own places, the only place WAR totally shines is at exp party where mobs dies in 5second, anything that doesn't die in 5second PLD does better most of the time.

The only time i use my WAR is probably on Coincounter and Misser (even though PLD is better at holding misser's hate, but trying to hold hate on WAR after steel cyclone nerf becomes its own challenges when you have top notch DPS).

Ifrit extreme, Garuda, Chimera, solotanking princess and marshall, Darnus. We always brings PLD.

i tanked with both pld & war i had decent skill and gear along with it for both jobs, i understood them both and knew/also had a good skill rotation. for me it wasn't really the content so much as to which is better to use and what is better for the said content i primarily picked between the two according to one: how good the main healer was or if we had a main healer, and two: building hate quickly to overcome hate resets/enmity spikes from dd's going all-out or single/multi mobs tanking. from that it determined which i used aside from the party or leader telling me which to use.

no matter what type of content i was doing if we had a good main healer i would go war hands down. to add on that if their were alot of hate resets or huge enmity spikes from berserk dd's/mages then i would go war for sure.

no matter what type of content i was doing if our main healer was bad(ie poor skill, gear etc etc) or lack of a main healer and only had assist heals then i would go pld hands down. to add if it was going to be a long fight or we would have good buffs then i would go pld.

almost all of my input has been touched on previously in this thread and others like it along with the fact that my opinions about pld & war design for 2.0 come from what we had in 1.0. i really can give constructive criticism and feedback since i haven't played them in 2.0, only beta will tell. at that point i can then give my concerns and input but giving/speculating how they should and will be is kinda pointless right now. the only thing we can hope for is for them to be balanced, on par or equal with each other which then it really comes down to personal preference maybe a little bit of which is better for said content but that fact they each can either only tank or both tank & dd.

PS: tanking at the end of the day boils down to "keeping the mob/mobs on and attacking you" period! how each tank goes about that depends on their design, i will agree that if pld will only tank and war can tank/dd then pld should be superior since it can only tank. but if they both can dd/tank then they should be on par, equal or balanced.

PLD's and WAR's need to have a similar output in terms of damage and mitigation, with a different flavor. You can't have WAR's be vastly superior for AoE, or PLD's completely outclass other thanks for single target threat and damage reduction. If there's any delta between the two beyond 5% or something of that nature, we'll continue to see job cherry picking come 2.0.

The way you do this is with diverse toolkits (AoE variations such as taunts, active mitigation differences instead of boring passive).

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Originally Posted by Deakka

PLD's and WAR's need to have a similar output in terms of damage and mitigation, with a different flavor. You can't have WAR's be vastly superior for AoE, or PLD's completely outclass other thanks for single target threat and damage reduction. If there's any delta between the two beyond 5% or something of that nature, we'll continue to see job cherry picking come 2.0.

The way you do this is with diverse toolkits (AoE variations such as taunts, active mitigation differences instead of boring passive).

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Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

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>.> Thats what I've been saying.. Why you hate me




... Its because I was hating on your vanity wasnt it!


Fine! *Storms off, breaks a few vanity mirrors*;)




But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles ( like I already said in this thread XD) - and you may "try" to do all contents with both but there is a such a clear winner in each type of content that its obvious they are not on equal ground.

What about a potent "killer" effect to each? Maybe like PLD get Undead Killer which improves damage, defense, aggro, and cure damage vs undead, and WAR gets like, I dunno, Beast killer where their DEF, ATK, Aggro, and uhh....whatever else.

I'm not talking weaksauce like XI, but something that makes people think, "Gee, we're gonna be fighting Odin (he's death/undead right?) so we can go WAR or PLD." PLD might hold an edge over the WAR. Or you fight Chimera which is a beast, so WAR will have an easier time with Chimera.

That's not to say a PLD can't tank anything but Undead, or WAR can't tank anything but beasts. I dunno...

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Originally Posted by Lucke

What about a potent "killer" effect to each? Maybe like PLD get Undead Killer which improves damage, defense, aggro, and cure damage vs undead, and WAR gets like, I dunno, Beast killer where their DEF, ATK, Aggro, and uhh....whatever else.

I'm not talking weaksauce like XI, but something that makes people think, "Gee, we're gonna be fighting Odin (he's death/undead right?) so we can go WAR or PLD." PLD might hold an edge over the WAR. Or you fight Chimera which is a beast, so WAR will have an easier time with Chimera.

That's not to say a PLD can't tank anything but Undead, or WAR can't tank anything but beasts. I dunno...

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I'd like to see some killer materia or something but I dont think its a good idea to add it to classes in a strong suace way :P


Dragoons could often fear dragons lower then themselves and that was cool. But if you make it too powerful you'll get class exclusive content just like we are already talking about where PLD never gets invited to X and WAR never gets invited to Y, just like in hamlet where if you are anything but tank, healer, crafter, or gatherer you'd never get a place.


So.. adding a more potent killer effect to materia or to weapons that could be cool - but not to a class.

Maby it is the tank purest in me but I say leave pld as the main turtle tank. I do not feel thier dmg should be = or near = to wars.

Pld should be high def/dmg mitigation, low dmg.

War should be ballance with both for tanking, they need to buff their dmg dealing ability some.

I do not see why a sword should deal as much dmg as a battle axe. Or how an axe can block as much dmg as a shield. I say let them be different. Making all classes = each other makes everything bland and the same. Jobs are specified rolls they should be that way... nothing alike.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Maby it is the tank purest in me but I say leave pld as the main turtle tank. I do not feel thier dmg should be = or near = to wars.

Pld should be high def/dmg mitigation, low dmg.

War should be ballance with both for tanking, they need to buff their dmg dealing ability some.

I do not see why a sword should deal as much dmg as a battle axe. Or how an axe can block as much dmg as a shield. I say let them be different. Making all classes = each other makes everything bland and the same. Jobs are specified rolls they should be that way... nothing alike.

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Well classes roles overlap and some such a point that they are the same role just different play style. Hybrid roles are usually the worst to balance because you dont want the player to feel like they suck but you also dont want other players to be like "wtf, he does both things better then me and that other guy"..


My idea why PLD could woop out damage is that you'd relate a lot of his stuff to holy magic. And the WAR to being in a blind blood rage 24 7 he'd ignore the damage. Both are actually quite common themes in games and in sort for FF. If they are not going to make the holy swordsmen you could move some of his stuff into PLD as well - I mean Cecil was known as a badass.

im fine with war & pld being tanks, i kinda like the different types along with some trade offs, advantage/disadvantage given certain situations since i like tanking and pretty much i could use both easily the same. the main problem i saw with 1.0 the two pld & war was that their was a bit more of a learning curve with pld then warrior. pld had some more stuff involved with it plus the fact that gear was really important more so then warrior, and im not saying gear wasn't important for warrior but for pld thier was more BS behind it which many didn't understand.

i personally saw it was easier for ppl to pick up warrior and tank then picking up pld and tanking. warrior was little more simpler and pld had a few tricks that needed to be mastered before you could preform well.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

That's what I've been saying.. Why you hate me

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Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

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But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles.

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I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

You know if you take away WARs Aoe move(s) OR Dumb down their AOE moves, PLD's will have more of a reason to tank weather they are geared well or not.

The goal with all the jobs is, to find a reason for any party to accept you into their. If the job isn't effective enough, that job will have a hard time doing much of anything.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

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Agree completely. All the tanks, healers and dps need to be balanced to do their jobs equal to others using their own powers. They had some aoe agro abilities on paladin, but imo they didn't do nearly as well as having a high damage axe in the face, and that is part of the flaw with the two.

Paladin needs more real defense to go along with its lower than warrior HP as well as increased agro gain off its two aoe agro abilities, as well as more practical way to use wardrum, and they added damage to wardrum after a while, but the damage is laughabe, and the cooldown is laughable. Re-adding circle slash, or even better a paladin-like aoe light attack, would help too. Warrior should have to sacrifice some of its damage but with increased enmity when in a tank role and make it comparable to paladin in a single target role, give them a spirits-within type skill, just one that is more warriorlike. Later down the line there will be more classes added that are considered 'tank' and they should certainly each perform as well as paladin and warrior in single and aoe situations. There are many other things they could do in terms of cooldowns and damage amounts they could do to balance the two, so people can actually have a job preference and be proud of their preference.

But like its been said as well, Warrior is was made like a jack of trades, and if it stays that way, shouldn't even be better at paladin at aoe tanking, but I also always felt they should go one way or the other with warrior and not try to have them able to do both.

Tho, we all have to see what changes they made to both in ARR, because there is a chance it is not still the same way as we know it. I know what I'm going to test out first in Beta.

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

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Sounds good on paper. But that rampart skill is 3m cooldown, and you would lose aoe hate a lot faster than your flash could recover. You can only heal yourself so much on targets doing actual damage to you, and unless you have the best paladin trousers, it got interrupted a lot when you were getting beat on, so the healers would even draw hate off of you. SC nerf didn't heavily effect warriors ability to be the better hate magnet for multiple targets, as I was still doing aoe parties with them near the end of the era.

Now that TP will start off max, a warrior won't even have to wait. charge in, chain some aoe skills. Thats going to be much better than flash on a cooldown and rampart - which warrior can also use.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

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Totally agree with this... Paladin in 1.0 was actually quite good at holding hate but many players were not too focused on really blending the PLD skills together to make the class shine. If in 2.0 it can get an even higher hate amplifier added to divine veil and holy succor, then Paladin will really become a beast of a tank on the battlefield.

Well like I said earlier and will probably be ignored again, your personal experiences are one thing, but what is programmed is This tank is better at this than that tank. I'm eagerly awaiting Beta to comment further after seeing what they did.

Also, actually trying to go toe to toe pld vs war and 5 or more monsters, i can tell you warrior will have 4+ of them, paladin will have 1 by the time they die... and thats only if the pld gets a block off with enough TP at the start. Poorly chosen combo...

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Originally Posted by Reika

Paladin needs more real defense to go along with its lower than warrior HP as well as increased agro gain off its two aoe agro abilities, as well as more practical way to use wardrum, and they added damage to wardrum after a while, but the damage is laughabe, and the cooldown is laughable. Re-adding circle slash, or even better a paladin-like aoe light attack, would help too. Warrior should have to sacrifice some of its damage but with increased enmity when in a tank role and make it comparable to paladin in a single target role, give them a spirits-within type skill, just one that is more warriorlike. Later down the line there will be more classes added that are considered 'tank' and they should certainly each perform as well as paladin and warrior in single and aoe situations. There are many other things they could do in terms of cooldowns and damage amounts they could do to balance the two, so people can actually have a job preference and be proud of their preference.

But like its been said as well, Warrior is was made like a jack of trades, and if it stays that way, shouldn't even be better at paladin at aoe tanking, but I also always felt they should go one way or the other with warrior and not try to have them able to do both.

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HP discrepancy shouldn't really be there, as while effective health is determined by a combination of defenses, health and cooldowns, it does make one tank harder to heal than the other.

Personally, one of two things should happen. You either nerf WAR damage and up enmity generation, or you buff PLD damage and even out the two so that both are generating the same DPS and enmity. Or at least take steps to close the gap to where it's only noticeable on sims and spreadsheets rather than during a boss fight.

Hate to (well, not really) pull out a WoW comparison, but the reason tank damage was buffed for prot warriors and paladins (who were sword & board) in WotLK was because the devs knew that a tank with a two-hander (death knights) could potentially wipe the floor with them in terms of DPS. Pallies were given a DoT, some reactionary abilities (Holy Shield, Reckoning) and a heavy hitting ability (Avenger's Shield). Warriors were given damage bonuses on reactionary abilities (Revenge), damage buffs for their rotation skills (Heroic Strike, Devastate), and crit bonuses on their main attack (Shield Slam). That's how the gap with death knights was for the most part closed, and it worked out pretty well, IMO.

The alternative would be to just turn WAR into a DPS job, but that would make it the second failed attempt by SE to make WAR into a tank only to just go DPS and never look back.

can't run into unbalances again. A war can DD but never out DD a mage. WIth defense comes other sacrifice.

It seems the plan is to have them hit hard to help maintain control, but slowly. As well as the ability to BREAK enemy defenses (armor) and enhance.

Going to take time regardless.

What ever way, PLD and wars need to be able to maintain control, so a hard nuke doesn't result in a instant dead mage or healer. Toss me some defense preeez.

I could be totally confused, but does anyone remember the "Don't Pull with Provoke" thing? Was that fixed?

For those that don't know, your first attack didn't give any hate, so if you pulled with voke, for example, you wouldn't get the hate from that first provoke. You would provoke some mob, then the BRD would get aggro off you the first time they attack.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Sounds good on paper. But that rampart skill is 3m cooldown, and you would lose aoe hate a lot faster than your flash could recover. You can only heal yourself so much on targets doing actual damage to you, and unless you have the best paladin trousers, it got interrupted a lot when you were getting beat on, so the healers would even draw hate off of you. SC nerf didn't heavily effect warriors ability to be the better hate magnet for multiple targets, as I was still doing aoe parties with them near the end of the era.

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I am no career PLD but it is pretty common knowledge how rampart works, and how useful it is for a nice initial hate boost. It seems to work for the most part when my group's tank opens the fight with it. Long cooldown aside, it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for hate of course but for crowd control, it is more often then not enough to keep them looking at the PLD until the mobs die.

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Now that TP will start off max, a warrior won't even have to wait. charge in, chain some aoe skills. Thats going to be much better than flash on a cooldown and rampart - which warrior can also use.

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You have to remember that other DD's also start off with full TP - along with PLD. Even a WAR charging in with full TP and spamming every WS combo they have, it will not match or come close to a DRG or MNK's while under rampage (single target).

However, once again, in cases where there is a large crowd of mobs, hate does not have to be extremely heavy - just enough to hold the hate off the WHM until the mobs die which is 9 times out of 10, an extremely fast process (in the 1.x system).

While yes, WAR has the means of AOE / Crowd Control in a couple of situations, PLD is by far a more useful and solid tank in a huge majority of the situations in end game content so far. When your DD's start becoming extremely heavily geared, and your WAR's are trying to keep up - Provoke, Antagonise, and the weak WAR weapon skills (under Rampage) are definitely not enough to hold hate off those DRG or MNK zergs.

Yes the SC nerf, tied with the Collusion nerf reduced WAR's ability tenfold. It is much easier to pull hate off a WAR then it is a PLD, presuming they both know how to play those roles.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

I could be totally confused, but does anyone remember the "Don't Pull with Provoke" thing? Was that fixed?

For those that don't know, your first attack didn't give any hate, so if you pulled with voke, for example, you wouldn't get the hate from that first provoke. You would provoke some mob, then the BRD would get aggro off you the first time they attack.

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The action (regardless what action that is) that makes the mob go from passive to agressive does not increase any enmity. (Well at least in 1.x) There isn't really an answer for this in 2.0 as far as I am aware, but I daresay that won't change.

Altena you just descibed how horrible a WAR is (crap damage compared to others and bad at end game tanking).

Lol. I agree there are a lot of areas END game that PLD soar - but they flunk in hilarious style until then. And a few areas that WAR still excel in like multi target trash.


All in all the tanks imo are not well balanced. PLD needs more in X and WAR in Y and instead of trying to hybrid balance - just make a tanking class that works on different styles of play* :P


*How you play, not how the character is balanced. I hope some people in SE play MOBAs...

I won't quote because I am lazy but..

Yeah I did basically say how WAR is basically a hybrid DD / Tank.. Doesn't compare to the other more specific jobs.

But yes when I talk about jobs, I talk about a job in its entirety, with all abilities and traits (ie level cap / end game). EXP parties I will admit, PLD has always been pretty trashy but in saying that - I don't really consider that to be where the job really defines itself. I mean MNK is almost as good a tank as WAR and GLD if you are talking about EXP parties.. At that sort of level / stage you don't want extremely defined roles as it allows very little flexibility.. However the EXP system is changing dramatically so there goes that anyway..

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

I think a few more enmity / damage mitigation skills for PLD would be enough but to be honest I think it is rather working as intended :/

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Originally Posted by Altena

I won't quote because I am lazy but..

Yeah I did basically say how WAR is basically a hybrid DD / Tank.. Doesn't compare to the other more specific jobs.

But yes when I talk about jobs, I talk about a job in its entirety, with all abilities and traits (ie level cap / end game). EXP parties I will admit, PLD has always been pretty trashy but in saying that - I don't really consider that to be where the job really defines itself. I mean MNK is almost as good a tank as WAR and GLD if you are talking about EXP parties.. At that sort of level / stage you don't want extremely defined roles as it allows very little flexibility.. However the EXP system is changing dramatically so there goes that anyway..

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

I think a few more enmity / damage mitigation skills for PLD would be enough but to be honest I think it is rather working as intended :/

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Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank. But I also believe that PLD shouldnt be seen as total blow except for bosses >.> lol. Or WAR seen for blow except for large groups of trash mobs.


I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

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Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank.

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In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

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Originally Posted by Altena

Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

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Melee is bad compared to mages but I've seen some ok melee - however I think a gatherers wrist flick would have done more then paladin lol


But I can see it not being the best example lol


How about this: -any- leve that didnt involve a boss.

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Originally Posted by Altena

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

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Yeah you dont want to flood the market, I'm not sure 2 tank options would do that but you can always have more dps :P

I think the tanks just need a way to bump up their DPS enough that no one is like dammit PLD could you slow us down any more? In MOBAs most tanks can also deal a decent amount of damage - "tanky dps" being that almost annoying term to hear lol.

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Originally Posted by Altena

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

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This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

I'll admit that the current approach to WAR is iffy because of the stances. Where most games would allow the WAR to grow depending on which stance they prefer to play as, XIV is hindered on top of that by the armoury system. Frankly, if we're to keep the armoury system they need to chose a role and go with it. I'd prefer it to be tank just because we do need something more than just PLD for that role.

Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.

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Originally Posted by Altena

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

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You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

If you want a different tanking style add Ninja with shadows :3

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Originally Posted by FedeMax

With Beta test just around the coner, I want to play tank but on 1.0 Warrior was it and nothing else. The difference in defense and hp between Paladin and Warrior were minimal. Every party and dungeon run was always a Warrior. Paladin was for the most part a unwanted class for endgame content. So I though to bring these up and see what people would like to see in ARR for Paladin and Warrior.

Paladin - Tank 2.0

Greater Defense - to be able to tackle multiple Mobs or Bosses without driving crazy the WHM with cures.

AOE emity skills - be able to run into a room and agro everything around him. Sample the 3 Garudas

Boss disabling skills - a skill that will knock down boss for a periot of time (4-8 sec.)

Greater DPS on a single Mob than 1.0.

Warrior - Crowd Control 2.0

More AOE attack skills - been able to run behind the tank and start attacking multiples Mobs for faster kills on a group.

Less Defense that Paladin - there really needs to be a noticeable difference between Paladin and Warrior squishiness if not everyone will still use just Warrior.

AOE enbledding skills - keeping with making Warrior a Crowd Control, mass killer.

Abilities to reduce or increase emity as needed - that way it can control the his emity to help removed mobs from other DPS classes or less to not take away Mobs from Tank.

I would love to hear what other people would like to see different from the 1.0 Paladin and Warrior or everyone is happy just to scrap Paladin and just make Warrior the tank.

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Great ideas. My idea to push paladin would be:


HEALING AURA

I also would like, if the Paladin had something like Auras (think about Dark Age of Camelot in that point)

A Healing aura for the group which pulses and regenerates hit points real slow, but at least it would be somethin.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

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What I meant by my post was that there are currently too many tanking classes in comparison to how many total jobs there are presently.. I feel that 1 tanking job is sufficient considering we only have 7 (soon 8) different jobs. Certainly as the 24-man content is released, and more jobs start to make an appearance, there is room for different tanking jobs but I don't think there should be as many tanking jobs as their are pure DPS jobs (which currently there are). However once again, there is only room in a party for a very limited number of tanks, and varying that too much will cause people to cry about "not playing their main jobs" as the slots are limited.

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Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.
You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

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I agree with this, and is pretty much what I already said. There are many different ways of dealing damage, however taking it is rather limited.

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8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

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To be honest, I would rather 1 tank with 30 DD's taking down an enormous mob.. Call me a traditionalist but a lot of "dual tank" mechanics end in a main tank holding the boss, and the off-tank sitting in a corner voking adds all night. It never ends in a fun battle mechanic for the off-tank.

Paladins.. should be the only "Main tank".Warrior "can" be a Tank, but it shouldn't have defense equal to a Paladin. When I see the word Warrior, I see a Person with an Axe or Sword ( even Dual Swords) and going all out on the enemy. I don't think of a Warrior as a Main tank, However Warriors are tough nuggets, so they can be a Back up Tank, if it so happens the Paladin is having trouble, or needs a second tank within a Battle.

To me, Overall Warriors are ment to be High Damaging (but low Crit-rate) DDers. Paladins Only task.. is to tank.. and they have not so good damage rate. So of course you have the give a Paladin a reason to even exist in the game, so you give them tanking Abilities. If you give Warrior the same thing ( equal as some people say), + Awesome tanking, I feel it makes a Paladin that much useless.

Jobs abilities are drastically changing in ARR. As such, discussions about job mechanics are moot seeing as we don't know what abilities they kept for PLD/WAR and what abilities they tossed in the trash for PLD/WAR. It's all speculation about 1.0 battle mechanics until beta starts...

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Originally Posted by Altena

I am no career PLD but it is pretty common knowledge how rampart works, and how useful it is for a nice initial hate boost. It seems to work for the most part when my group's tank opens the fight with it. Long cooldown aside, it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for hate of course but for crowd control, it is more often then not enough to keep them looking at the PLD until the mobs die.



You have to remember that other DD's also start off with full TP - along with PLD. Even a WAR charging in with full TP and spamming every WS combo they have, it will not match or come close to a DRG or MNK's while under rampage (single target).

However, once again, in cases where there is a large crowd of mobs, hate does not have to be extremely heavy - just enough to hold the hate off the WHM until the mobs die which is 9 times out of 10, an extremely fast process (in the 1.x system).

While yes, WAR has the means of AOE / Crowd Control in a couple of situations, PLD is by far a more useful and solid tank in a huge majority of the situations in end game content so far. When your DD's start becoming extremely heavily geared, and your WAR's are trying to keep up - Provoke, Antagonise, and the weak WAR weapon skills (under Rampage) are definitely not enough to hold hate off those DRG or MNK zergs.

Yes the SC nerf, tied with the Collusion nerf reduced WAR's ability tenfold. It is much easier to pull hate off a WAR then it is a PLD, presuming they both know how to play those roles.



The action (regardless what action that is) that makes the mob go from passive to agressive does not increase any enmity. (Well at least in 1.x) There isn't really an answer for this in 2.0 as far as I am aware, but I daresay that won't change.

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The problem with your take on rampart is that Warrior can use rampart too. 1 on 1, non-retarded pld vs non-retarded warrior, warrior will win at Aoe agro. You have to look at the skills that one job can use that the other cant, so rampart and sentinel have to come out of the factoring. In 2.0, having full tp at the start would help the warrior more with aoe threat than, because pld doesnt have any aoe based tp skills that it can use before a block (wardrum), while warrior can just go apeshit and win.

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.