[dev 1021] [Suggestion] Please consider this SP loss system for Death

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Originally Posted by ClawFury

Instead of SP/EXP lose why not Freeze SP/EXP gain as an added effect of weakness? 2 minutes of not being able to gain SP/EXP doesn't seem harsh

Losing SP/EXP is pretty harsh for a penalty as it takes long enough to reach 50 as it is

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You know this may not be a good idea due to the fact that weakness... USUALLY effectivley prevents you from wanting to get into a battle, I think it'd be an unnecessary add on.

No. Please don't consider *ANY* SP loss system for death.
It's an antiquated and surpassed system basically any other MMORPG developer is doing away with, for obvious reasons.

This game doesn't need (nor can really support) any more time sinks. Alienating a further part of the customerbase by adding the furstration of wasting further experience/time isn't exactly something that would benefit the game or it's users.

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Originally Posted by RobotRivers

You know this may not be a good idea due to the fact that weakness... USUALLY effectivley prevents you from wanting to get into a battle, I think it'd be an unnecessary add on.

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Do you know how many people zerg into battle with weakness still on? She makes a good point, and they could extend the weakness to 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Do you know how many people zerg into battle with weakness still on? She makes a good point, and they could extend the weakness to 5 minutes.

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Well sure that's there choice, they ought to be rewarded for winning a battle at 1/2 their strength.

EDIT: Rewarded in the sense that they still get sp/exp.

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Originally Posted by Grit

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

1. It wouldn't stop people from throwing weakened bodies at NMs. You don't fight NMs for Experience Points.

2. It wouldn't stop people from acting carelessly.. because they would just wait for weakened to wear off before fighting (like they already do most of the time..)

If the weakened state (specifically the condition of not being able to receive SP) was 5+ minutes long, AND we had more non-guildleve content, this might work. But only 2 minutes with everybody doing guildleves.. definitely not.

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True, which is why I like my idea better.

But, it's a decent compromise and might help from a psychological standpoint.

Let me first say I am against SP lose on death, however if there were a loss it would separate the men from the boys so to speak.

I like what SE has tried to do with this game. Make is solo friendly while having the party feel. I think that SE is currently pandering to much to the "weekend warriors". I know that not everyone is a hardcore gamer and I understand the need for soloing being balanced, however some of these last patches make me wonder if SE is trying to turn away it's true fan base. Just as a heads up its not the "weekend warriors". With upping the SP so that people can get to 50 in a matter of weeks is absurd. The new MP regen was a mistake or at least they need to slow down the amount of MP per click.

I look at these post and see all the whining of its too hard...please make it easier. My question to SE is who do you think is going to stay with you longer when we do start paying? The "weekend warriors" or the true fan base for FF? What is the incentive to pay for a game when you have already reached max level so far in the game. My opinion is that those that whine the loudest even if they did make all the changes would leave the game as soon as they have to pay for it!

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Originally Posted by Allanon

The new MP regen was a mistake or at least they need to slow down the amount of MP per click.

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I agree with this 100%. MP regen completely made Tranquility, Exaltation, MP Absorb as well as stat planning and MP management redundant. With the current MP regen, I was able to heal a party against any NM simply by healing and putting weapon away until a member needed a Cure III. Through the whole ordeal, my MP never decreased passed 50% point even on the harder hitting NMs. I would prefer MP regen to be removed and turned into an item perk limited to classes without a large MP reservoir and recharge ability like DoW. Perhaps an MP Egg item for your pouch slot so that DoW can recoup some MP without having run to crystal all the time.

I have played a lot of mmorpg's and I think it's only natural that you lose some EXP or SP upon death and get a temporary debuff. But they should leave it at that.
When they implement something like equip loss or durability loss of equips I will defenitely oppose such a thing though.

Harsh death penalties are a superficial time-sink and bad game design. Any mechanic that encourages people to walk away from the keyboard for too long is bad design. Also a mechanic that takes away sp/xp is simply there to make it take you longer to skill up is simply there to make you play longer. It would be better to give people content to keep them around longer than to take away there sp/xp just because your a bad game designer and couldn't come up with more content. Death penalties also discourage exploration of your game world which again is bad game design.

agree with xzen.

not only is it bad game design that discourages exploration of the game, it would discourage people from wanting to play a game that's already critically tenuous in terms of players. many players have already said that they would not play if an exp/sp loss is implemented. and right now, SE can't afford to push players away, especially since they're so close to the patch that should (hopefully) begin to draw everyone back in.

unfortunately, threads like these which try to inject bad game designs into a game that is already deeply flawed but trying its best to change, are really irresponsible. the OP doesn't even qualify the need for a deterrent. if you're going to make a suggestion then it needs to have a clear purpose, which this idea does not have.

right now we need to be looking at the big picture and to be implementing ideas that improve the future health of the game. the game needs to draw players in, not push them out.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

-There needs to be a discouraging penalty for people wasting other people's time.

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...Or they're not very good players and would do this either way. With your system, everyone will suffer because of one bad player. Great.

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At the moment, no one cares about dying

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Seriously?

WHO doesn't care about dying? I'm about as casual of a player as they come and I HATE dying. Having to watch while the time in my levequest ticks away while I sit there useless is more than punishment enough.

It's ridiculously easy to die in this game, many times to circumstances completely beyond your control. Such as two mobs fire off AoE TP attacks at the same time, you accidentally aggro a mob while mining when you didn't realize the mob pathed near you or you set the levequest difficulty to 2 stars because the last one was too easy at one star and you die horribly (because some levequests are cake on 3 while others are impossible on 2).

Seriously, a death penalty shouldn't be incurred until the game can avoid killing the player for dumb reasons that don't at all reflect on personal skill.

Stop trying to turn this game into Aion.

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Originally Posted by Allanon

however some of these last patches make me wonder if SE is trying to turn away it's true fan base. Just as a heads up its not the "weekend warriors".

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Weekend warriors outnumber SE's "true" fanbase 50 to 1 and their money is worth the same.

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The new MP regen was a mistake or at least they need to slow down the amount of MP per click.

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So you have to sit there longer to get the same result?

Boring ≠ challenging. When will people get this through their heads?

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I look at these post and see all the whining of its too hard...please make it easier.

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I see "It's too boring. Make it fun" and I couldn't agree more.

Copying ans pasting from another thread.

Idea for a penalty if you all really want one.

1. 75% Movement speed reduction.
2. Blood Rite effect
3. All Abilities used in weakness become 10 Minute cool-downs.
4. Anima cost returning upon death -10 Anima cost.
5. All stats reduced to 1 underweakness.
6. Enmity greatly increased when near an engaged enemy over time.

This will make zerging hard, and death warping negated.

With the blood rite effect if you have 100 hp and you attack the mob, you'll lose 10 hp. If you have 10 hp left and you attack again, boom your dead again even if the mob doesn't attack. If you're bleeding a lot and you move around, what happens, you make the injury worse.

Making cooldown last longer when weakened, will definitely keep anyone from zerging a monster. And with stats reduced to one why bother attack anyway. Just by standing near the mob it will know you're weak and will want to kill you, so after standing near it long enough it will turn towards you even if the tank has had hate for a while.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Weekend warriors outnumber SE's "true" fanbase 50 to 1 and their money is worth the same.



So you have to sit there longer to get the same result?

Boring ≠ challenging. When will people get this through their heads?



I see "It's too boring. Make it fun" and I couldn't agree more.

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You may be right about the number of weekend warriors(I doubt it). What do you think that number will be once we have to start paying.....many people I have come across have already stated that they would not be playing once we have to pay. So who do you think they should be targeting and who do you think will pay longer?

Think the death penalty they have now is fine and should not be messed with.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I'm against it. EXP/SP loss never is a good idea.

Die as DoH while trying to deliver a local levequest and you might reconsider your idea ^^

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This is the only logical reason against exp/sp loss I've heard. Most are "I'm lazy" or "I can't stand penalty, because I worked "so hard" to get where I am" (old ranks 50s I understand if you complain, new rank50s --psh--) If they did add penalty they should think about differentiating how xp/sp is done with DoH. Specifically DoL's xp/sp should be redone, since they get the most gimped with fatigue in this game, and I'm just a part time time botanist, but I don't want my full time botanists getting jank xp/sp. DoH need that levequest rehaul.

Wile no one likes losing xp/sp on death, it is actually one of the best features on a game. I tend to find games without xp loss on death to fail in promoting a survival instinct. I understand that ppl says it is a bad thing, everything that downgrades your character is bad, but a penalty is supposed to be bad, to make you learn from your mistakes and make you value staying alive.

I agree with the original 10% from ff xi, but as long it is at least 4% i'm ok with it.

I think I remember that Star Wars actually made you lose your character if you died (at least if u were a Jedi). Was it bad? ofc yes. Did it made you think twice b4 putting yourself in danger? hell yah! I'm just saying, independently if we like it or not, the higher the penalty is, the more we value our experience. Another example is lineage 2, it had an original xp loss of 4% on death, with a 70% xp recover from special resurrection spells (only made by 2 classes of the game). When nc added multiple ways of reducing that percentage to 2%, 1% and 0,25% the pvp just downgraded exponentially, ppl stopped caring about dieing.

Heya!

The Death system right now really needs something that tells the players to be scared of death.
By far, this is the best idea I've ever seen in every thread in this forum. I also approve the tweak of Clawfury by not letting the player to earn any SP until weakness is done.
That could help the players to form better their tactics on monster killing instead of zombiekill things.

What about the durability? Do you think it has to be lowered too by a certain percentage?
As for myself, I'm neither cold or hot about that, but the main concept would be: Die fast, Repair fast.

See ya!

One minor issue with the OPs idea - Buy back possibly needs some work:
1) Buy back with Gil - Gil is worthless for "hard core" players - while this would create a gold sink in the economy it wouldn't really deter sloppy behavior, or create a feeling of danger - but it may do so for casual players that don't have quite a large bankroll
2) Buy back with Anima - Anima is near worthless for "casual" players - my anima regenerates faster than I know how to use it, hence it would have the same issue for a different player base.

You could allow either option - but that decreases the fear of death since it's easier(less costly) to pay off if you get to choose the method of payment. And if you choose one over the other then you are definitely making a decision about which player type you exact the penalty on more harshly.

I'm not sure this approach is sufficient to really create the "I'm sitting on edge of my seat" type of experience.


The most tense time I have had in this game was trying to sneak through Mor Dhona to reach a camp when I was far from an aetheryte. Dying was painful, because it meant redoing 15 minutes of carefully avoided aggro.

My problem is that I rarely get to play like this. Leves and quests are within a stone's throw of a camp or aetheryte and if anything, all the leves are set up so that you run back and forth right next to camp. None of them have you adventure way out into danger. I'd love to have something where if I died and my group couldn't raise me, it'd put me so far back that it would be very difficult for me to get back to the group, or the group might have to make a concerted effort to come and regroup.

I think any death penalty needs to be designed & coupled with an upping in difficulty of content across the board. It makes me sad that only once in 6 months have I been sitting on pins and needles praying not to die.

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Originally Posted by Dragonhand

Wile no one likes losing xp/sp on death, it is actually one of the best features on a game. I tend to find games without xp loss on death to fail in promoting a survival instinct. I understand that ppl says it is a bad thing, everything that downgrades your character is bad, but a penalty is supposed to be bad, to make you learn from your mistakes and make you value staying alive.

I agree with the original 10% from ff xi, but as long it is at least 4% i'm ok with it.

I think I remember that Star Wars actually made you lose your character if you died (at least if u were a Jedi). Was it bad? ofc yes. Did it made you think twice b4 putting yourself in danger? hell yah! I'm just saying, independently if we like it or not, the higher the penalty is, the more we value our experience. Another example is lineage 2, it had an original xp loss of 4% on death, with a 70% xp recover from special resurrection spells (only made by 2 classes of the game). When nc added multiple ways of reducing that percentage to 2%, 1% and 0,25% the pvp just downgraded exponentially, ppl stopped caring about dieing.

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The problem is even in FFXI the death penalty didn't promote players to be any better. The bad players will still bad so it fails in that regard. Also when most of this games content is designed to WTF pwn you regardless of skill the harsh death penalty just flat out makes no sense. Making players stand around for 3 minutes with their hands in their pockets is within the tolerable threshold and punishment enough.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I'm against it. EXP/SP loss never is a good idea.

Die as DoH while trying to deliver a local levequest and you might reconsider your idea ^^

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I, too, am against this idea. EXP loss is what made me quit FFXI in the end, it makes things too harsh when your death is caused by the carelessness of others AND EXP/SP is our character growth, what we work so hard for. I don't like having my reward being taken away.

So, please, never change the death system for EXP/SP loss. Thank you.

Personally I think not gaining xp during weakness is a decent idea. It never sets you back but still reminds you that there is something to lose...

Im tired of my hand being held. People who want an easy game, plz go play something else. You are bleeding the ff fanbase dry, when you get bored of this game because it offers no sense of urgency or accomplishment, i guess you will go find some other game to bitch to developers about having it dumbed down for the newby people who want a cake walk to the max rank/level... seriously.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

The problem is even in FFXI the death penalty didn't promote players to be any better. The bad players will still bad so it fails in that regard. Also when most of this games content is designed to WTF pwn you regardless of skill the harsh death penalty just flat out makes no sense. Making players stand around for 3 minutes with their hands in their pockets is within the tolerable threshold and punishment enough.

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I've faced xp loss only in Lineage 2, when the game had a 4% xp loss. When those 4% started to mean a full week of farming mobs, I started to be much more carefully and dedicated into not dieing uselessly by staying in healers range and keep my healer alive at all costs. Obviously bad players will remain bad players, that will happen with or without penaltys. But medium players will fell more motivated to learn how to properly do things when they start deleveling instead of leveling. My point of view...

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

I, too, am against this idea. EXP loss is what made me quit FFXI in the end, it makes things too harsh when your death is caused by the carelessness of others AND EXP/SP is our character growth, what we work so hard for. I don't like having my reward being taken away.

So, please, never change the death system for EXP/SP loss. Thank you.

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Do you know what happens in real life when you die? You guessed it, you die.
In my perfect concept of a game, death penalty would include the real chance of losing your character.
Does it seams too much for you? Diablo 2 have the Hardcore system where if u died it would be permanently, no second chances. And it still had an huge player base. But I'm not so rigid, I don't think that losing your character over death would be beneficial to a game (unless some very strict rigid conditions apply).

In final fantasy, saying I don't my "effort be taken away" finds a great solution in a death penalty system, and the solution is simply play better.



Also, thumbs up for Mugiwara. "Im tired of my hand being held" is exactly my thoughts, had enough of that in wow.

Are you saying our characters should be deleted if we die? No one would bother with this game if it was like that. Diablo 2, Hardcore mode was an option, thats why it still had a player base. if it were the only option, There would be a tiny handful of people that would bother with it.

Your grades at English or wtv native language you use must be realy low cus I clearly didn't said such a thing, so your interpretation skills are a bit low.

"I don't think that losing your character over death would be beneficial to a game (unless some very strict rigid conditions apply)." could I be more clear then these?

I'll rephrase it... no need to be a bad person I guess... I don't think losing your character would benefit final fantasy, it would only benefit a game where the proper conditions were assembled.

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Originally Posted by Reika

if it were the only option, There would be a tiny handful of people that would bother with it.

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Yah thats why no one played star wars galaxies, oh wait... ppl did played it... but yah at the end player base fallen to 10k and it was shuted down :P Still it sold 1 million copy's. In any case I've never considered losing a character as a viable option to final fantasy, less as the only option.

I've already stated that a 4% xp loss both physical and rank would be acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Allanon

So who do you think they should be targeting and who do you think will pay longer?

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The game wouldn't sustain itself with the current tiny cluster of "dedicated fans" so why in the name of all things sane would SE try to pander to just that cluster?

You know what's a FANTASTIC death penalty? Amazing rewards for living. When it comes to MMO difficulty, the ceiling should always be raised, not the floor.

WoW got to be as popular as it did because a braindead chimpanzee drunk on a case of beer could play the game, but there was enough difficult and challenging content throughout that the most hardcore of players could find something to love.

FFXIV doesn't need to be hard on basic things like dying. It needs to be hard in things like dungeons, NMs, PvP (even if it was just arena-based), and crafting.

MMO masochism is dead (at least it would be if a certain RMT-supporting Korean dev could let it die once and for all...).

I play games to have fun. Losing 10% of my exp (and effectively HOURS of my RL time) because of a spot of lag, server disconnect or some other stupid circumstance beyond my control is the polar opposite of fun.

If people want this game to be harder, look to make it hard where it SHOULD be hard, not enforce a minimum masochism threshold before a player can even participate in the game.

"WoW got to be as popular as it did because a braindead chimpanzee drunk on a case of beer could play the game"

By far, the best wow definition I've ever saw ahahahaha lawl.

I agree with you Richard in the point that there are many ways to make the game hard in a healthy way. Still i believe the fear of death should exist and players should be sort of afraid of dieing. I'm always hopen to new systems unless they are hand holding craps.

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Originally Posted by Dragonhand

I've faced xp loss only in Lineage 2, when the game had a 4% xp loss. When those 4% started to mean a full week of farming mobs, I started to be much more carefully and dedicated into not dieing uselessly by staying in healers range and keep my healer alive at all costs. Obviously bad players will remain bad players, that will happen with or without penaltys. But medium players will fell more motivated to learn how to properly do things when they start deleveling instead of leveling. My point of view...




Do you know what happens in real life when you die? You guessed it, you die.
In my perfect concept of a game, death penalty would include the real chance of losing your character.
Does it seams too much for you? Diablo 2 have the Hardcore system where if u died it would be permanently, no second chances. And it still had an huge player base. But I'm not so rigid, I don't think that losing your character over death would be beneficial to a game (unless some very strict rigid conditions apply).

In final fantasy, saying I don't my "effort be taken away" finds a great solution in a death penalty system, and the solution is simply play better.



Also, thumbs up for Mugiwara. "Im tired of my hand being held" is exactly my thoughts, had enough of that in wow.

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I've been playing MMOS since UO launch and experienced full loot PvP etc etc. To put it simply the mechanic does not make the game fun. In FFXI I have been in parties where I had lost entire levels which could mean a full weeks worth of work (before SE made it easy mode level up) all because one person in the group was a bad player. That wasn't fun and I don't have fond memories of it. Before you say anything about just tossing that player that was back when people were standing around for 5 hours just LFG to level so tossing some one right away for being a bad player wasn't really an option. While I have had fun in the past in games with harsh death penalties the penalties themselves in no way made the game more fun. A lot of people have also said "it makes it exciting" or "It gives me a rush" but the first thing I learned in those games was that getting "excited" or getting "a rush" often led to making mistakes. So the first step to becoming a better player was not feelling that way. Instead I enjoy the feeling of accomplishment to which the threat of losing a level or gear had no effect on.

The current system is fine. Why on earth would it make sense to punish players while playing the game? This isn't 1998 anymore. Death penalties in general are dumb. You still lose time when you die, if you're in a party it can cause a wipe which leads to more lost time. Making the even more extreme is just a punishment in a video game. It makes no sense. I guess the masochistic gamers might like it a bit, but honestly EQ and Darkfall are there for you. I could go into a large rant over people with jobs/little time/etc but it's been done to death. Death penalties are dumb and just another time sink and a bad one at that.

edit: The person above me hit the nail on the head.

I'm against SP/EXP loss.. it's just frustrating to see your hard earned exp turning to smoke.. and really, it's not like if in real life you get kocked out you forget things.. unless you got hit to the head at the point of causing an amnesia lol..

I don't think gear durability loss is good either.. it'd be like what.. monsters chew on your armor while you're unconscious..? Or rather decaying..? Oh please.. xd

Weakness is generally a good penalty.. you are indeed feeling dizzy when waking up after being knocked unconscious.. during the time of weakness there could be also penalties on stats like accuracy, attack, defense and magic attack.. and also a gained SP/exp penalty.. in other words, if you manage to win or your party wins while you're weakened you get less experience due to the fact of being unable to concentrate on the battle..

Just like Hikozaemon suggested.. resurrecting magic could "relieve the stress" shortening the weakness times and reducing temporary penalties..

I wouldn't mind a durability hit to your gear on death, but definitely not an exp hit.

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Originally Posted by damican

The current system is fine.

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The current system is a slap on the wrist, akin to a childhood 'timeout' which is grossly disproportionate of a penalty for having died/failed/lost/error/misjudgment/(noob 'lag') in combat.

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Originally Posted by damican

Why on earth would it make sense to punish players while playing the game?

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That's what surplus is, I don't see too many people getting touchy-feely over defending its current system.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

The current system is a slap on the wrist, akin to a childhood 'timeout' which is grossly disproportionate of a penalty for having died/failed/lost/error/misjudgment/(noob 'lag') in combat.



That's what surplus is, I don't see too many people getting touchy-feely over defending its current system.

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Actually I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that surplus should probably be taken out. Also with the games lack of required skill and death pretty much being a random occurrence in most of the situations the game puts you in there would be other things that need to be changed/fixed before DP even became viable although still unneeded and superficial.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Actually I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that surplus should probably be taken out.

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That's exactly what I said...

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Originally Posted by Boricua

That's exactly what I said...

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lol then I'm agreeing with you.

Alright then, what I'm getting at is why can't a compromise be met in the sense that the surplus system that deters 'success' in grinding a particular job be replaced with a system that deters 'failure' in the event of dying.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

Alright then, what I'm getting at is why can't a compromise be met in the sense that the surplus system that deters 'success' in grinding a particular job be replaced with a system that deters 'failure' in the event of dying.

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I think the problem is that the middle ground has already been achieved (without the surplus system). The problem is with the system that is in place now people already get irritated when they wipe. Every wipe after that adds to their frustration until they call it quits for the day. Even if you have 5 hours and don't mind wiping over and over again your going to get annoyed by the people that do. Failure in the current system is already painful due to this very occurrence and would only be made more painful by increasing it. To me the system is an acceptable middle ground between two extremes.

some muthaf!@#$!s always tryin to ice skate up hill...

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Originally Posted by Mugiwara

some muthaf!@#$!s always tryin to ice skate up hill...

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oh man I loled hard.