2.0 Movement inertia: Removed

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Originally Posted by Velhart

If this was in PvP, I would never play it. Radnar explained it pretty well, it is a big advantage tool for the offensive team and can be used unfairly.

As for inertia, I don't care honestly, all I care about are the game play mechanics overall. I don't care if they have to sacrifice a thing or two to make the game play as smooth as possible.

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You could also use it as your advantage. The walking standing in between animation really made final fantasy an MMO that exceeded all the others in immersiveness, and for now that "reality" or "fluidity" is absent. Hope they put it back there

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Originally Posted by Luaq

You could also use it as your advantage. The walking standing in between animation really made final fantasy an MMO that exceeded all the others in immersiveness, and for now that "reality" or "fluidity" is absent. Hope they put it back there

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locked in place [no thanks]

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Originally Posted by Luaq

You could also use it as your advantage.

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There is absolutely no possible way to use movement inertia (or other animation sequences that lock your character in place when you change momentum) to your advantage in any gameplay scenario, be it PvE or PvP.

Also why did this thread get bumped? Please no.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

locked in place [no thanks]

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If done correctly, this shouldn't be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Not saying this is 100% correct, but I'll take a stab at it.

I'm pretty sure it was removed because it was causing the server to figure out your position slower, as well as making movement feel... sluggish. Need to quickly move out of the way of Ifrit's Eruption? Hold on there... accelerating... moving... decelerating... BOOM! When fractions of a second count, sometimes you have to sacrifice some realism.

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I believe your right! However an animation will not make the server take longer to figure your position in the game.

The extra animation, while visually pleasing, does take up extra time in a characters movement. And with players that are subject to high ping. These few milliseconds can add up to almost half a second or more. With players with 200ms pings this can be hard for players that are overseas.

Personally I am okay with the extra time to display the animation.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

There is absolutely no possible way to use movement inertia to your advantage in any gameplay scenario, be it PvE or PvP.

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Yes there is: fooling your enemy into running in a wrong direction, thus making them waste time on turning. You're not using your imagination, people.

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Originally Posted by Linkurrra

With players with 200ms pings this can be hard for players that are overseas.

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There is no "overseas" with regional servers. Since we're getting them anyway...

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Yes there is: fooling your enemy into running in a wrong direction, thus making them waste time on turning. You're not using your imagination, people.

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I know Final Fantasy XIV has some dumb players, but that's ridiculous to claim as a "tactic."

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I know Final Fantasy XIV has some dumb players, but that's ridiculous to claim as a "tactic."

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That was classic! LOL /tearflick

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Originally Posted by Gramul

If done correctly, this shouldn't be a problem.

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If they do it the 1.0 way you will be locked down doing w/e you want ...and if they don't do it 1.0 way people will still complaint it looks fake.. 1.0 's movements work in a single player game but this is a MMORPG..movements of your char is the last thing you worry about.. seriously all this people complaining all the time i think they are on the wrong genre ..they don't understand the basics of a RPG

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Originally Posted by Warlock

If they do it the 1.0 way you will be locked down doing w/e you want ...and if they don't do it 1.0 way people will still complaint it looks fake.. 1.0 's movements work in a single player game but this is a MMORPG..movements of your char is the last thing you worry about.. seriously all this people complaining all the time i think they are on the wrong genre ..they don't understand the basics of a RPG

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They got rid of the 1.0 way. But that doesn't rule out animation blending and smooth inertia animation. Take Guild Wars 2 for example. The animations themselves aren't all that great, but they still have it implemented with no trouble. Imagine if Square could pull it off with good animation. I know they could do it, they're clearly skilled enough.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

If they do it the 1.0 way you will be locked down doing w/e you want ...and if they don't do it 1.0 way people will still complaint it looks fake.. 1.0 's movements work in a single player game but this is a MMORPG..movements of your char is the last thing you worry about.. seriously all this people complaining all the time i think they are on the wrong genre ..they don't understand the basics of a RPG

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Those so called basics are just things introduced by a 8~9 years old game that had an almost completely different style to this company's games, which had features that worked despite not being the same as said 8~9 years old game. Contrary to some people's belief, games that don't mimic said game's features CAN work.

And it's been said quite a few times before: Movement inertia and such animations shouldn't have anything to do with animation locks at all. Animation lock happened when performing actions or weapon skills, not while moving. The two things have nothing to do with each other at all. Need I repeat that again? They have nothing to do with each other AT ALL. They should be able to fix that issue without degrading the movement animations.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I know Final Fantasy XIV has some dumb players, but that's ridiculous to claim as a "tactic."

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Thank you for this lol

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I know Final Fantasy XIV has some dumb players, but that's ridiculous to claim as a "tactic."

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I've seen stranger exploits used as tactics.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I've seen stranger exploits used as tactics.

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Unless there is a bug with the animations that allows you to teleport up cliffs by spaming your movement keys in random directions really fast, there is absolutely no way to turn locking yourself in place for 1-2 seconds into a viable tactic or maneuver unless your objective is to die faster.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Unless there is a bug with the animations that allows you to teleport up cliffs by spaming your movement keys in random directions really fast, there is absolutely no way to turn locking yourself in place for 1-2 seconds into a viable tactic or maneuver unless your objective is to die faster.

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I think the idea is to "turn lock" the other guy. Though I can't say I ever even had any stalling when switching direction in 1.0. Least none I observed.

In any case, it's not like I'm for locking movement for animations. I've just seen stranger.

how the hell do you add an quote to a sig.

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Originally Posted by Firon

how the hell do you add an quote to a sig.

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Click "reply with quote" and cut/paste the whole quote code into your signature under settings.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Click "reply with quote" and cut/paste the whole quote code into your signature under settings.

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lol thanks <.<

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Originally Posted by Radnar

There is absolutely no possible way to use movement inertia (or other animation sequences that lock your character in place when you change momentum) to your advantage in any gameplay scenario, be it PvE or PvP.

Also why did this thread get bumped? Please no.

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What I meant is if someone thinks the movement inertia is an advantage to the opposite team then they are missing the point that they to, the opposite team, has the same weakness so in the end it's making no difference.

Lastly, I don't want to play and have the Gild Wars or any other mmo feel. Really FFXIV ARR will be in it's own league, but what 1.23 only had more than the others mmo, the subtle animations, they took it out. Now let's just see if it's something about an early build. I really hope it's just that.

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Originally Posted by Luaq

What I meant is if someone thinks the movement inertia is an advantage to the opposite team then they are missing the point that they to, the opposite team, has the same weakness so in the end it's making no difference.

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It does make a difference. It introduces a random element to PvP that can and will determine the outcome of fights unfairly. Not only that, but it will impose a forced reaction time penalty on any "reacting" player in PvP-scenarios that is many times longer than the player's own reaction time + latency, preventing them from being able to react properly to any attack - effectively shifting the outcome of any PvP-encounter heavily in the favor of the initiating side and, again, dumb luck.

But most importantly: It will not. Be. Fun. Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP (and for that matter PvE) that desires to be seen as serious and not luck- or random chance-driven.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

They got rid of the 1.0 way. But that doesn't rule out animation blending and smooth inertia animation. Take Guild Wars 2 for example. The animations themselves aren't all that great, but they still have it implemented with no trouble. Imagine if Square could pull it off with good animation. I know they could do it, they're clearly skilled enough.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

Those so called basics are just things introduced by a 8~9 years old game that had an almost completely different style to this company's games, which had features that worked despite not being the same as said 8~9 years old game. Contrary to some people's belief, games that don't mimic said game's features CAN work.

And it's been said quite a few times before: Movement inertia and such animations shouldn't have anything to do with animation locks at all. Animation lock happened when performing actions or weapon skills, not while moving. The two things have nothing to do with each other at all. Need I repeat that again? They have nothing to do with each other AT ALL. They should be able to fix that issue without degrading the movement animations.

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To Gramul ...i'm afraid if SE pulls off something like that with GW2 as reference the complainers will find a way to call it "GW2-clone" and complaint some more ...these guys wont be happy w/o their nostalgia fix.

And Klefth when i said RPG basics i meant more like this
http://www.playimport.com/img/p/21472-62151-large.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...da_Dungeon.jpg
people keep demanding details that don't belong in this genre ...the most important aspects of this game will be others and as Yoshi-P stated he wants this to become the best Final Fantasy experience

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Originally Posted by Radnar

It does make a difference. It introduces a random element to PvP that can and will determine the outcome of fights unfairly. Not only that, but it will impose a forced reaction time penalty on any "reacting" player in PvP-scenarios that is many times longer than the player's own reaction time + latency, preventing them from being able to react properly to any attack - effectively shifting the outcome of any PvP-encounter heavily in the favor of the initiating side and, again, dumb luck.

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...wat.

Did you ever feel like those animations actually hindered your movements in 1.0 in any way? Because I didn't. I always saw the animations as a cosmetic sort of thing. My character stopped moving where I intended it to, and it didn't take any longer to get moving (unless I was lagging badly for some reason or my controller crapped out). I don't really know where people are getting some of these things from.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

But most importantly: It will not. Be. Fun. Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP (and for that matter PvE) that desires to be seen as serious and not luck- or random chance-driven.

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Uh... no? That is, unless they implement that WoW crap, where the challenge lies on how fast can you move in erratic directions or how fast you can move your camera in order to keep your target in sight (practically turning the game into more of a TPS kind of thing instead of an RPG). As for PVE, well... I don't even.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

It does make a difference. It introduces a random element to PvP that can and will determine the outcome of fights unfairly. Not only that, but it will impose a forced reaction time penalty on any "reacting" player in PvP-scenarios that is many times longer than the player's own reaction time + latency, preventing them from being able to react properly to any attack - effectively shifting the outcome of any PvP-encounter heavily in the favor of the initiating side and, again, dumb luck.

But most importantly: It will not. Be. Fun. Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP (and for that matter PvE) that desires to be seen as serious and not luck- or random chance-driven.

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This is true for PvE as well.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

Did you ever feel like those animations actually hindered your movements in 1.0 in any way? Because I didn't. I always saw the animations as a cosmetic sort of thing. My character stopped moving where I intended it to, and it didn't take any longer to get moving (unless I was lagging badly for some reason or my controller crapped out). I don't really know where people are getting some of these things from.

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Your post makes me think you have never done any PvP before, much less anything on an approaching-competitive level. And that's fine. Not everyone has to PvP. But if you haven't PvP'ed before, then I'd encourage you to play some of the other games out there so you can educate yourself and understand what I am talking about before you respond.

And yes 1.0's movement is a hinderance and would be considered unacceptable in any sort of game which wanted to have its PvP taken seriously.

Edit: As a concession, I will say that SE did a lot to improve the movement controls over 1.0's lifespan from what they were at release. At release they were an abomination, but by server shut-down day they were a lot better.

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Uh... no? That is, unless they implement that WoW crap, where the challenge lies on how fast can you move in erratic directions or how fast you can move your camera in order to keep your target in sight (practically turning the game into more of a TPS kind of thing instead of an RPG). As for PVE, well... I don't even.

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I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You start by describing what I think is supposed to be WoW's PvE, but your final sentence fragment seems to make me think otherwise.

Didn't they already post about this. Some of the over exaggerated animations were taken out to have better gameplay.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...375#post821375

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

While the animations were nice, the development team's number one focus in A Realm Reborn is on gameplay so even though they were nice animations, the team made the decision to remove them.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Your post makes me think you have never done any PvP before, much less anything on an approaching-competitive level. And that's fine. Not everyone has to PvP. But if you haven't PvP'ed before, then I'd encourage you to play some of the other games out there so you can educate yourself and understand what I am talking about before you respond.

And yes 1.0's movement is a hinderance and would be considered unacceptable in any sort of game which wanted to have its PvP taken seriously.

Edit: As a concession, I will say that SE did a lot to improve the movement controls over 1.0's lifespan from what they were at release. At release they were an abomination, but by server shut-down day they were a lot better.



I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You start by describing what I think is supposed to be WoW's PvE, but your final sentence fragment seems to make me think otherwise.

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First off, no, I don't really have a lot of PvP experience. PvP is not exactly what I look for in a MMORPG, and I haven't bothered with it since waaaaay back in Ragnarok Online. What I was talking about at the end of my post was WoW's PvP, solely based on what I have seen of it. I wouldn't bother with it, because, well... pretty much everything I've seen is outright hideous to me. All I've managed to see is pretty much what I described: people running about in erratic ways while chasing their target and trying to keep 'em in sight and slamming away at one or two keys as soon as their spells/abilities are back up, which takes like a second or so. If the PvE there also ends up that way, well... wow... then that is just sad.

I'd seriously like to know how the animations were a hinderance, btw, seeing as they didn't really affect movement at all and were a purely aesthetical thing.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Didn't they already post about this. Some of the over exaggerated animations were taken out to have better gameplay.

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Without telling us how it even effected gameplay when others MMOs have been able to do so without it effecting gameplay by allowing players to interupt the animations instead of being locked into them.

Anyways...what the hell is with the bolded part? They never said they were over exaggerated, nor were they if anything it was a benchmark of how to do smoothly blend movement in a open enviroment...unless your character actually stopping was too much for you.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Your post makes me think you have never done any PvP before, much less anything on an approaching-competitive level.

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Please don't talk as if all pvp are twitch-based, because they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

First off, no, I don't really have a lot of PvP experience. PvP is not exactly what I look for in a MMORPG, and I haven't bothered with it since waaaaay back in Ragnarok Online. What I was talking about at the end of my post was WoW's PvP, solely based on what I have seen of it. I wouldn't bother with it, because, well... pretty much everything I've seen is outright hideous to me. All I've managed to see is pretty much what I described: people running about in erratic ways while chasing their target and trying to keep 'em in sight and slamming away at one or two keys as soon as their spells/abilities are back up, which takes like a second or so. If the PvE there also ends up that way, well... wow... then that is just sad.

I'd seriously like to know how the animations were a hinderance, btw, seeing as they didn't really affect movement at all and were a purely aesthetical thing.

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Thank you for being honest. However, you must realize that saying you have no experience with and no interest in PvP does not lend credence to your position.

You say that you do not understand how the animations were a hinderance. I am telling you they are. I have tried to explain in the most general terms possible how they are, both for you and others previously on page 8, but there is only so much raw explaination can do if you do not care to understand the foundation-level material.

I would encourage you to go play any sort of competitive-PvP game out there - be it SC2, LOL, CS, GW2, or, yes, even WoW - and actually spend time trying to get good at it. Fight with good players, and talk with them about it. After about three months, think back about how your gameplay experience would be "changed" if, every time you changed direction, there was a game-enforced 1-second lag time. At that point, you will probably at least understand what I am saying, even if you don't agree with it (I acknowledge that there are some people out there who like their PvP encounters to be more RNG-driven than others).

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Please don't talk as if all pvp are twitch-based, because they aren't.

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Please show me where I claimed all PvP is twitch-based.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Thank you for being honest. However, you must realize that saying you have no experience with and no interest in PvP does not lend credence to your position.

You say that you do not understand how the animations were a hinderance. I am telling you they are. I have tried to explain in the most general terms possible how they are, both for you and others previously on page 8, but there is only so much raw explaination can do if you do not care to understand the foundation-level material.

I would encourage you to go play any sort of competitive-PvP game out there - be it SC2, LOL, CS, GW2, or, yes, even WoW - and actually spend time trying to get good at it. Fight with good players, and talk with them about it. After about three months, think back about how your gameplay experience would be "changed" if, every time you changed direction, there was a game-enforced 1-second lag time. At that point, you will probably at least understand what I am saying, even if you don't agree with it (I acknowledge that there are some people out there who like their PvP encounters to be more RNG-driven than others).

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Please show me where I claimed all PvP is twitch-based.

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I am a LoL player, but I can't really see how that matters here, since that belongs to a whole different genre. Unless you're trying to compare a strategic MOBA with an MMORPG here?

Anyway, the animations would be a hinderance IF they actually affected your movement, but, again, they didn't, so what exactly is the issue with them? They were purely aesthetic. Characters would start and stop moving when they had to. There simply were start and stop animations, but you could start moving again right away anyway. How does that hinder you at all?

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Please show me where I claimed all PvP is twitch-based.

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Of course.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Of course.

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I see you have quoted an earlier post of mine, but I don't see how it responds to my original question. Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP.

Edit: Alright, unless maybe we're talking about World of Tanks. But those are tanks, man.

I feel slightly dumber after reading this thread and people's responses. This topic has no bearing on how I will feel about 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

I see you have quoted an earlier post of mine, but I don't see how it responds to my original question. Responsive movement controls are a prerequisite to any sort of PvP.

Edit: Alright, unless maybe we're talking about World of Tanks. But those are tanks, man.

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Or any other myriad of games that have PvP which focuses on other factors(I'd actually argue that movement is actually quite important in WoT). For example, Eve Online, which is pretty much the most pvp-centric MMO of them all, tactical and strategic planning matters far more than "responsive movement" on the field of engagement, which often times isn't even possible anyway.

This is not to say that responsive movement control is bad in any way, just that it's hardly a prerequisite for ALL PvP, which goes far beyond than just the kind you had in mind.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I feel slightly dumber after reading this thread and people's responses. This topic has no bearing on how I will feel about 2.0.

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I can't stop laughing at this for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

To Gramul ...i'm afraid if SE pulls off something like that with GW2 as reference the complainers will find a way to call it "GW2-clone" and complaint some more ...these guys wont be happy w/o their nostalgia fix.

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Considering XIV 1.0 did it before GW2, I doubt that would be the case. Parametric animation and blending have been around for a while and most games these days use them without issue, including online multiplayer action games like Team Fortress 2. They got rid of it because the system was attached with the lag on the skill and weapon use. It can still be introduced under a new system.

I'm glad it's gone tbh. It took forever to start running or shift direction radically when already on the move.

Now it's as simple as turn the mouse, you're going the way your camera's pointing.

Thank God.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I know Final Fantasy XIV has some dumb players, but that's ridiculous to claim as a "tactic."

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Oh, excuse me, I seem to have forgotten I was posting on these kind of forums. Won't happen again. Will you please explain me why this is stupid, oh wise Kiri?

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Originally Posted by Miliant

I'm glad it's gone tbh. It took forever to start running or shift direction radically when already on the move.

Now it's as simple as turn the mouse, you're going the way your camera's pointing.

Thank God.

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...What? No it did not. In fact, I just logged on to try it out and it does not take any longer, nor does the stop animation move my character any further from where I intend it to stop. And I can start moving again in whichever direction right away. Where are people getting this stuff from? Have some of these guys even played this game? Have I been playing something else all along? I really don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Oh, excuse me, I seem to have forgotten I was posting on these kind of forums. Won't happen again. Will you please explain me why this is stupid, oh wise Kiri?

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You have to target enemies in Final Fantasy XIV to attack them, so the sluggish inertia animations don't do a single thing for strategy. Every single skill (unless the PvP exclusive skills are different, which they won't be) are cast/used directly on the target. The only "strategy" involved in moving would be to avoid having them hit you from a specific direction, which the inertia animation has nothing to do with.

OH, HE STAGGERED TO THE LEFT! GOOD THING I AM STILL STANDING STILL AND CASTING MAGIC!

It's almost as if none of you have actually played this game before!