Ban premade parties in Frontline please

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds. Nobody in the chat liked it. We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped. At the end, the self-appointed commander was complaining that we went somewhere that didn't have their D marker.

The previous game I was in the same alliance as this person. They took the exact same approach. The enemy team ignored us and we won, but it was the most boring game of Frontline in the world. Literally micromanaging everyone's movement.

Let people criticize boring playstyles and annoying macros however they feel like. If you can't take it then stop going to the forums, it's clearly not for you.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds. Nobody in the chat liked it. We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped. At the end, the self-appointed commander was complaining that we went somewhere that didn't have their D marker.

The previous game I was in the same alliance as this person. They took the exact same approach. The enemy team ignored us and we won, but it was the most boring game of Frontline in the world. Literally micromanaging everyone's movement.

Let people criticize boring playstyles and annoying macros however they feel like. If you can't take it then stop going to the forums, it's clearly not for you.

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How 'bout, if you can't take peoples' efforts to help win a game of PvP, then stop queuing up for PvP. It's clearly not for you.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

How 'bout, if you can't take peoples' efforts to help win a game of PvP, then stop queuing up for PvP. It's clearly not for you.

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If you've read anything here you would see I've no problem with people wanting to win. I'm just here pointing out that a lot of people find a particularly invasive strategy some players use is unfair, boring and annoying :)

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Originally Posted by Exmo

If you've read anything here you would see I've no problem with people wanting to win. I'm just here pointing out that a lot of people find a particularly invasive strategy some players use is unfair, boring and annoying :)

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I've read it, and I know what I'm dealing with.

Help me understand something. Earlier you stated:

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I never said I'm against putting markers on enemies.

"back" does a good enough job.

You say "stay together" or "regroup" in alliance chat.

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but then

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds. Nobody in the chat liked it. We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped.

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So, the way I'm reading this is they used chat to coordinate (like you said you were fine with), but that was distracting? I apologize, but these two statements seem in conflict with each other to me.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Help me understand something. Earlier you stated:



but then

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So, the way I'm reading this is they used chat to coordinate (like you said you were fine with), but that was distracting? I apologize, but these two statements seem in conflict with each other to me.

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They were spamming their macros with sound effects. Literally 'Follow the waymark' x3, then ten seconds later 'fallback' x2, then ten seconds later 'Follow the waymark' x2, on repeat for the match. Often they would lead the whole team in one direction, then turn around and go back... then turn around and go a third direction :D meanwhile no enemy or node in sight. And when people started to break away from the aimless group, they spammed their macros with sound effects again.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

They were spamming their macros with sound effects. Literally 'Follow the waymark' x3, then ten seconds later 'fallback' x2, then ten seconds later 'Follow the waymark' x2, on repeat for the match. Often they would lead the whole team in one direction, then turn around and go back... then turn around and go a third direction :D meanwhile no enemy or node in sight. And when people started to break away from the aimless group, they spammed their macros with sound effects again.

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I think what this boils down to is that some shot-callers are completely oblivious to how annoying an overuse of chat and SFX can be, while simultaneously vastly over-estimating their ability to assess the current strategic situation.

I played a few games today without a persons doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds. Chat was empty all time. We ended up losing because was without any commanding, everyone was annoyed and that not helped. At the end, some persons blaming their team because no one pushing, but none of them deigned to take a tank or melee job.

The previous game I was in the same alliance as these persons. They took the exact same approach. The enemy team ignored us and we won, but it was the most boring game of Frontline in the world.

Let people criticize boring playstyles and useful macros however they feel like. If you can't take it then stop going to the forums, it's clearly not for you.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds. Nobody in the chat liked it. We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped. At the end, the self-appointed commander was complaining that we went somewhere that didn't have their D marker.

The previous game I was in the same alliance as this person. They took the exact same approach. The enemy team ignored us and we won, but it was the most boring game of Frontline in the world. Literally micromanaging everyone's movement.

Let people criticize boring playstyles and annoying macros however they feel like. If you can't take it then stop going to the forums, it's clearly not for you.

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Sounds like:

Had a game with a commander, team didn’t listen and we lost.

Had a game with same commander, team listened and we won.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think what this boils down to is that some shot-callers are completely oblivious to how annoying an overuse of chat and SFX can be, while simultaneously vastly over-estimating their ability to assess the current strategic situation.

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There's that but also, in the previous game, the team "obeyed" the callouts and we won (mainly because the other teams ignored us). But that game was extremely boring. Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline. It's a videogame most people play to have fun. But things like oppressive premades and this in-your-face commanding style make the game less fun.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Help me understand something. Earlier you stated:



but then

.

So, the way I'm reading this is they used chat to coordinate (like you said you were fine with), but that was distracting? I apologize, but these two statements seem in conflict with each other to me.

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Please. Let's not pretend that there aren't some "commanders" that are effectively trying to micromanage everyone with macros that light up the whole chat all the time. Which in fact, do get annoying and counterproductive, especially when they a) make bad calls and b) drown out the more important calls. Nothing wrong with engagement macros to coordinate burst, but they don't need 8 sound effects over a span of 5 seconds every 10 seconds.
Frontline is first and foremost a strategic game mode. Yes, resolving engagements to one's advantage is always helpful. Frontline hower is not, as someone else here suggested, some free for all arcade brawler simulator. And having commanders who do nothing but chase the nearest engagement with no regard for positioning of all teams, currently available objectives and resupply lines, can be a very effective way to lose the game, even when "winning" engagements.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

There's that but also, in the previous game, the team "obeyed" the callouts and we won (mainly because the other teams ignored us). But that game was extremely boring. Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline. It's a videogame most people play to have fun. But things like oppressive premades and this in-your-face commanding style make the game less fun.

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lmao ok so, don't tell people "if you only just read" when you're inconsistent and disingenuous. You really want Frontline to be a shitting grounds for people who want rewards for the least effort possible. The people trying to win make you feel bad about your own efforts and we can't be having that!

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Please. Let's not pretend that there aren't some "commanders" that are effectively trying to micromanage everyone with macros that light up the whole chat all the time. Which in fact, do get annoying and counterproductive, especially when they a) make bad calls and b) drown out the more important calls. Nothing wrong with engagement macros to coordinate burst, but they don't need 8 sound effects over a span of 5 seconds every 10 seconds.
Frontline is first and foremost a strategic game mode. Yes, resolving engagements to one's advantage is always helpful. Frontline hower is not, as someone else here suggested, some free for all arcade brawler simulator. And having commanders who do nothing but chase the nearest engagement with no regard for positioning of all teams, currently available objectives and resupply lines, can be a very effective way to lose the game, even when "winning" engagements.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time. You can't chat in CC except for quickchat, and those get spammed often as well with similar frequency of "Attacking <x>" "Falling back" "Regroup" "Attacking <x>" "Retreat".

I also asked several times, and still never got an answer, of how many people are considered a premade. That also can make a huge difference in these discussions.

banning premades would not change anything

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time.

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I am, so let's read the post again (emphasis mine):

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds.

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Yes, this style of "commanding" is indeed often counterproductive. While I think having "a" commanders is usually better than having none, I have seen more than enough bad ones, whose constant and unnecessary pinging lead to no one properly paying attention to anything. If everything has priority, nothing has priority. This is essentially an argument about command doctrine. Imho, chat and pings should be reserved for important announcements, and allow participants some leeway in how to execute the general strategy. Again, nothing wrong against engagement macros to coordinate, but they don't need so many sound effects. They can have 2 or 3, and be just as effective. People's attention is limited, and it's better everyone focuses on the fight going on than having to parse through half a dozen lines every 5 seconds. There is no need to have this discussion in absolutes, as if one commander 2 pings a minute to convey current high level strategy is the same as another spamming the chat, just because both employ the same tools of chat and sound effects.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

There's that but also, in the previous game, the team "obeyed" the callouts and we won (mainly because the other teams ignored us). But that game was extremely boring. Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline. It's a videogame most people play to have fun. But things like oppressive premades and this in-your-face commanding style make the game less fun.

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I've been criticized for muting in-your-face commanders, but doing so makes the matches more enjoyable for me and I'm convinced it doesn't make me play any worse.

If you plough through the megathread, you'll find my main gripe was playing on the same team as oppressive premades. Since 7.1 I've found the issue significantly reduced simply because in the current Aether meta they're simply not as dominant as they were. Plus I've switched jobs and can cause chaos from the wings.

I still think the fundamental issue is putting the entire player pool into the same bucket. Like I don't think AFKers should be there at all, but putting everyone in the same pool really is a mess. Like I'm pretty bad at PvE, so I don't raid, but can still enjoy the "brain dead" dungeons, typically with randos of similar skill. In FL, the skill gap between inexperienced players who are actually trying, and semi-static premades is enormous.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time. You can't chat in CC except for quickchat, and those get spammed often as well with similar frequency of "Attacking <x>" "Falling back" "Regroup" "Attacking <x>" "Retreat".

I also asked several times, and still never got an answer, of how many people are considered a premade. That also can make a huge difference in these discussions.

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When I use the term I'm referring to a 4-player light party.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

I am, so let's read the post again (emphasis mine):



Yes, this style of "commanding" is indeed often counterproductive. While I think having "a" commanders is usually better than having none, I have seen more than enough bad ones, whose constant and unnecessary pinging lead to no one properly paying attention to anything. If everything has priority, nothing has priority. This is essentially an argument about command doctrine. Imho, chat and pings should be reserved for important announcements, and allow participants some leeway in how to execute the general strategy. Again, nothing wrong against engagement macros to coordinate, but they don't need so many sound effects. They can have 2 or 3, and be just as effective. People's attention is limited, and it's better everyone focuses on the fight going on than having to parse through half a dozen lines every 5 seconds. There is no need to have this discussion in absolutes, as if one commander 2 pings a minute to convey current high level strategy is the same as another spamming the chat, just because both employ the same tools of chat and sound effects.

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I think a lot of people are in agreement the sound effects are overkill. If I had to guess, that is where a lot of the annoyance comes from. I'm of the opinion that if people want to follow, that's fine. If they don't, that is also fine. My heartburn is with different parts of the community wanting different things that are in opposite directions. For example, OP wants to ban premades. There is another thread about only first place getting rewards and nothing for second or third place. Taken together, it would make sense that if you only get rewarded for first place, you would probably see a significant increase in premades to increase their odds for first place. I realize we don't have anything but a casual FL mode, so maybe a better course would be to suggest a competitive mode that would allow for more restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I think a lot of people are in agreement the sound effects are overkill. If I had to guess, that is where a lot of the annoyance comes from. I'm of the opinion that if people want to follow, that's fine. If they don't, that is also fine. My heartburn is with different parts of the community wanting different things that are in opposite directions. For example, OP wants to ban premades. There is another thread about only first place getting rewards and nothing for second or third place. Taken together, it would make sense that if you only get rewarded for first place, you would probably see a significant increase in premades to increase their odds for first place. I realize we don't have anything but a casual FL mode, so maybe a better course would be to suggest a competitive mode that would allow for more restrictions.

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Yup, and/or custom matches, both of which would be easier to arrange if team sizes were smaller.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

When I use the term I'm referring to a 4-player light party.

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So using a LP as a premade, that is 1/6 of the team. Not an insignificant amount, but not enough IMO to be able to dominate the other teams alone. To me, a premade would be considered 12 or more, but I could even see a FP being enough to swing the tides in a certain manner.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

So using a LP as a premade, that is 1/6 of the team. Not an insignificant amount, but not enough IMO to be able to dominate the other teams alone. To me, a premade would be considered 12 or more, but I could even see a FP being enough to swing the tides in a certain manner.

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During the DRK+ meta, 4-person premades were reporting win-rates of 70% and higher. Indeed some members of such premades would use "33%er" as a derogatory term for solo players.

We're not talking about Billy and Jodie who queue into FL together for a casual game. We're talking about groups who are three or four in a voice chat so they can be highly coordinated, using macros like little tyrants to get everyone to follow their commands, telling everyone else that their DRK is the leader and shouting down anyone in chat who talks back. They don't "just want to play with their friends", that transparently disingenuous defense we've heard for months. All they want is to stomp on people to inflate their own egos and make themselves feel like they're better than everyone else. And you know for certain this is the case because they resist to their fullest the idea that premades should be only matched against premades. They would still get to play with their friends but they wouldn't get to stomp, so it's not an option they allow to breathe.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

During the DRK+ meta, 4-person premades were reporting win-rates of 70% and higher. Indeed some members of such premades would use "33%er" as a derogatory term for solo players.

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Still do. Haven’t heard that used as an insult before though.

Also, probably against separating ques cause it wouldn’t pop and you ruin it for the people who are “just playing with friends.”

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Still do. Haven’t heard that used as an insult before though.

Also, probably against separating ques cause it wouldn’t pop and you ruin it for the people who are “just playing with friends.”

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Only on Shatter I hope?

You'd be in favor of custom matches, right?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Only on Shatter I hope?

You'd be in favor of custom matches, right?

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Shatter actually lower recently. You need more people to burst effectively and everyone to busy licking ice. much easier to run seal and onsal.

Custom matches would be hype

Another queue into trash roulette into another time waste against obvious premade.

Not even worth trying to compete for 2nd place, better to get 30 min leaver penalty. I guess this is how SE farms "daily login" numbers.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

Yes, let's lower the quality of the fights more. Everything already made for hamsters and is as pointless as possible, the best thing to do is make it even more primitive.

You can go even further and prohibit hardcore raiders from joining parties. So the raid will be more har-r-rd CORE!

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You are griefer that likes to abuse broken system, go play other PVP games where you and your friends have more chances to lose.

I'd really like to ban premades that spend the entire match chatting in party chat on topics completely unrelated to the match.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'd really like to ban premades that spend the entire match chatting in party chat on topics completely unrelated to the match.

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100% agree

I'll never understand people who hate pvp but queue into it. And then spend the whole time complaining or actively being a detriment. Even when you call out behavior, the "lol, its just pvp" crowd pipe up. Then why are you here?? Some of us DO enjoy it and like to actually put effort into it. I can handle losing to better organized opposition. I can't handle being in teams where there is a significant portion not even trying or, worse, actively sabotaging. To me, they are the biggest detriment to FFXIV pvp.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You are griefer that likes to abuse broken system, go play other PVP games where you and your friends have more chances to lose.

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Didn’t think that would live to see the moment when players would unironically claim that playing in massive PvP events in a party is griefing and abuse of the system...

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Я никогда не пойму людей, которые ненавидят PvP, но встают в очередь.

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Free exp <3

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

Didn’t think that would live to see the moment when players would unironically claim that playing in massive PvP events in a party is griefing and abuse of the system...


Free exp <3

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You are really bold to say that system placing randoms against premades is fair and working at all. Groups should face groups at the very least. You are mocking people here just because you like to stomp, but people like you don't like to be stomped so you are not going to play games with ranked pvp.

Anyway, another dumb person on these forums, I guess you lost your way to general section.

The only solutions to people abusing parties:

Make party face party only, but this will require system to remember people from matches, because afaik abusers just q at same time and system places them in 1 team, so it needs to have some sort of cooldown to not have people party q over and over. = impossible with these devs, also will make queues longer for premade crybabies

Remove frontlines roulette, have people who "pvp with friends but it's all premade groups" just eat dirt and force them to make their premade matches against each other for useless "pvp" rewards (since no one will q frontlines ever). Place CC one match roulette in its place, no xp difference for losing, just more series pvp xp (cause no one cares about it). = possible, but needs devs to work on this game (it took them how long to change translation mistake core-lateral?)

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You are really bold to

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making wrong conclusions about a person and descending into blaming and insults

You trying awaken the forum troll in me, who has been sleeping for a long time.
You should stop playing ranked games, it's bad for your nervous system. Find a couple of friends, go to FL, have some fun ^^

Disagree! Playing with friends is fun and the game doesn't need more segmented matchmaking. Frontlines doesn't even have a ranking system so it's really not that big of a deal, and a premade party is still only like a third of a team. Anyone can coordinate with waymarks or pings, you don't need a premade for that. Losing the ability to play PvP with your friends would be devastating. On the contrary, I think (small) premade groups should be ALLOWED in Crystalline Conflict (casual) because playing with friends is a huge part of the fun of multiplayer games for me and many others.

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Originally Posted by velswen

Disagree! [....] it's really not that big of a deal, and a premade party is still only like a third of a team. [...].

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Disagree there.
I had a FL today where one team was obviously premade and it was impossible to win a teamfight against them and their GC and we had someone who lead via waymarks.
Yes in theory it's only 1/3 of the team premades but 2 DRK pulls, RPR Fear and DRG/AST nukes and such is enough to completely dominate every teamfight.

I had to instantly pop Purify and Guard and still died without any chance of getting out every single time.

One premade party is a huge difference in FL and can definitely be noticed by everyone.
We even tried to harass them as best as we could and let the other team win over the premades but it didn't work and they still won with 400 points over everyone else.

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Originally Posted by ViinaS

Disagree there.
I had a FL today where one team was obviously premade and it was impossible to win a teamfight against them and their GC and we had someone who lead via waymarks.
Yes in theory it's only 1/3 of the team premades but 2 DRK pulls, RPR Fear and DRG/AST nukes and such is enough to completely dominate every teamfight.

I had to instantly pop Purify and Guard and still died without any chance of getting out every single time.

One premade party is a huge difference in FL and can definitely be noticed by everyone.
We even tried to harass them as best as we could and let the other team win over the premades but it didn't work and they still won with 400 points over everyone else.

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It's getting worse on Aether. We've even been getting raiding premades from Crystal of all places. I assume Discord is refining comps and strats and we'll be seeing more lopsided matches as a result.

FL with friends is nice if you have them.

If you're in a match and 1 team has a commander + running 4man premade then you are at the mercy of your allies and whether they are able to work together to shut it down, results will vary wildly.
It's a bit more interesting when there is that kind of quality of player on each side, or at least 2 since there tends to be more fighting going on, in my opinion anyway.

Or maybe my standards are considered bad, I like 15min onsal mid fights.

As much as I personally dislike premades, either being with them or against them, the key to winning any match in Frontline is getting your whole alliance to work together and not be spread out across the map. Your alliance will get slaughtered if they are split in two and fighting on two different areas of the map. How many times have you typed into Alliance Chat "Focus Red, stop attacking Blue" or something to that effect? A chaotic free for all is a sure fire way to lose.

Therefore, people who actually take the time to try and coordinate attacks are important if not vital, be that with waymarks, sound effects, or whatever. Punishing them for rising up and volunteering to be the leader of an alliance should not be punished, nor should their tools be taken away.

And, you know what? If you don't want to follow the leader, don't. You don't have to listen to them.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline.

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Wait, WHAT? WTF are you talking about? Yes it is!

I'm a solo, casual PvP player. I'm not a hardcore PvP'r. I suck at CC, I get demolished all the time. I like playing BRD in Frontline so I can stand back and see everything rather than being a melee and diving into the massive melee where I regularly just die. I try to support my teammates. I don't think I'm what another person called a "hamster", but I'm not that much better than that.

But when I play Frontline a handful of times a week, I'm there to WIN. I may not be good at it, but I try as hard as I can to WIN.

PvP isn't a Tea Party where everyone hangs out to dance, party, and hang with friends where the points are made up and nothing really matters. If you want to do that, go to one of those RP house parties. If that is your attitude towards PvP, 1) you shouldn't be playing PvP, and 2) YOU are what is wrong with Frontline because you're just there for the easy teatime xp and don't care about actually playing well.

What a ridiculous request lol

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Originally Posted by Rolks

Wait, WHAT? WTF are you talking about? Yes it is!

I'm a solo, casual PvP player. I'm not a hardcore PvP'r. I suck at CC, I get demolished all the time. I like playing BRD in Frontline so I can stand back and see everything rather than being a melee and diving into the massive melee where I regularly just die. I try to support my teammates. I don't think I'm what another person called a "hamster", but I'm not that much better than that.

But when I play Frontline a handful of times a week, I'm there to WIN. I may not be good at it, but I try as hard as I can to WIN.

PvP isn't a Tea Party where everyone hangs out to dance, party, and hang with friends where the points are made up and nothing really matters. If you want to do that, go to one of those RP house parties. If that is your attitude towards PvP, 1) you shouldn't be playing PvP, and 2) YOU are what is wrong with Frontline because you're just there for the easy teatime xp and don't care about actually playing well.

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Can't agree with this zero sum reasoning. That FL is either about winning at any cost or it's a lovely tea party with friends.

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Originally Posted by JudgeRAW

What a ridiculous request lol

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Premader detected.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Can't agree with this zero sum reasoning. That FL is either about winning at any cost or it's a lovely tea party with friends.

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I never said it was win at all costs. But winning does matter. As I stated in my first post, a chaotic free for all sucks. It's a guaranteed way to lose. On the flip side, I hate the DRK x2 +2 melee premade stomp party as well. But my solution isn't to take away tools used for effective organization of an alliance. I appreciate someone who is going to help the team focus on a goal to better aid in winning.

I'm not going into PvP being okay with losing. Just like I don't play board games, pickup basketball, or numerous other competitive sports and games being okay with losing.

If you're going in with the attitude of winning doesn't matter, then don't play PvP. No on wants you on their team if you're just there for the participation trophy.