List of 7.1 PvP Change Grievances

Two weeks have given me enough time on the field to reach the following conclusions (based mostly on FL).

While job balance is not great, that was completely predictable and something one can work around to some degree.

The fundamental issue is that the mode is hyperactive in terms of movement speed, but seriously unresponsive in skill application. This is significantly magnified by the enormous amount of CC, some of which applies for way too long.

The net result is stop-start engagements and frustration, with skill expression even further reduced relative to 7.0.

I understand some people like Shatter. I don't.

Add to this the fact that a third of any team is lethargic at best, and a sub-population that is playing a game within a game on voice, and this is not a mode I have any interest in. Maybe the role actions in 7.2 will change my mind, but overall we seem to be going backwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The fundamental issue is that the mode is hyperactive in terms of movement speed, but seriously unresponsive in skill application.

---

Posted this in another thread, but I'm gonna throw this in here to explain why the underlined part is happening to a variety but not all players. Felt like spreading the info a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Honestly, to me the hit detection changes have actually been fairly beneficial and allowed me to do things I couldn't do otherwise, like moving AOEs before they go off so they snapshot better. I also do not have any issues with the Purify reaction time because it is nigh-instant for me, same for Guard - I guarded vs Primal Rend about 0.1s before impact the other day.

I am not discrediting the experience here, but there is clearly a factor they completely ignored when designing these changes - LATENCY.

For context I play at 10ms (10 Ping) as I live in Germany connecting to a german datacenter (Light + Chaos) through a VPN to ensure I get a direct connection with basically no hiccups. I literally do not have "any" issues regarding hitreg and anytime I miss, it's actually my fault.

Inversely, this means that this netcode is working, but is absolutely brutal at latency exceeding 50-70ms. Things like stuns hitting after pressing Guard making Guard go on cooldown, Resilience not protecting against follow-up CC in time, AOEs not landing (particularly position based AOEs like Holy Sheltron bomb, Impalement, Bioblaster, etc.) are MAJORLY affected by latency, as you are actually no longer snapshotting at a single point in time where you know the player is for sure, but you have to track them where they actually "might be".

It will favour you at low latency, it will be basically soft-gambling at high latency. Given North America Datacenter location(s) generally being unable to favour the entire region at once and JP being a relatively small region (geographically), it makes sense they did not consider high latency when designing the netcode changes.


"Technically" how it works is just different from what we are used to and can be learned, but our network infrastructure world wide does not allow for low latency gaming worldwide, let alone regionwide. As long as this is a factor, this will remain a problem, therefore this netcode without adjustments is flawed.

---

Potentially important, agreed. But I am near the NA servers and am typically around 30ms and it feels lousy.

A large part of the "unresponsive" experience is a result of skills with long animations. They should rename "Primal Rend" "Primal When?"

I mentioned in another post it almost feels like the animation locks are being used to disguise latency/netcode issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I'd rather them to deal with AST/WHM combined to tanks being able to sustain for eons, which allows people to casually elixir again and again without their team disintegrating while they take their time, and see where we end up first. It's weird when you're in a team without an AST and tanks because suddenly your team feels incredibly brittle.

Because otherwise those solutions, honestly, even if I understand where you're coming from, don't sound fun to play with at all to me.

---

I appreciate the input, of course what I said is just suggestions at the end of the day that, if we're being honest won't probably ever make it to live no matter what I say. PvP in FF is fundamentally screwy with how things work, I've always seen Endwalker/Dawntrail PvP as almost being balanced like a Fighting Game, just poorly. This isn't a Hero Shooter or whatever, but due to that basically every class is capable of killing every class(with exceptions of course, don't ask me specifics though because I'm not a ranked player or super serious) which makes literal raw heals and regens stupid to deal with while still dealing good damage or CC/Debuffs. If you aren't stacked up with comically high burst damage/massive CC/a Limit that nulls peoples ability to live, then hunting someone down to prevent them from using Elixir is fruitless and you just gotta deal with a full reset person walking back into the fight casually in a tiny amount of time since stopping them is now a very very small punish window with how attacks are more delayed due to hits matching their animations more.

Like no option feels good because it just seemingly adds another issue, like how you wouldn't want to be standing around for 10 whole seconds to heal, or being stuck not being able to heal after you just did and got bursted down. Its another reason I absolutely hate the thing, damned if you do damned if you don't feeling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Potentially important, agreed. But I am near the NA servers and am typically around 30ms and it feels lousy.

A large part of the "unresponsive" experience is a result of skills with long animations. They should rename "Primal Rend" "Primal When?"

I mentioned in another post it almost feels like the animation locks are being used to disguise latency/netcode issues.

---

30 ms!!!!! That must feel incredible, being on the East coast I'm usually around 100ms. I would agree that animation locks do seem to be used as some type of mechanism to try to cope for some back-end issues, it would also seem to affect the jobs to different degrees.

By the way- on a separate topic- I've learned to keep a sense of humour in FL. Every once in a while (depending upon the patch, perhaps) , the latency will get particularly bad, I've had the enjoyable experience to dying to invisible opponents because they just shown up after I die :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

30 ms!!!!! That must feel incredible, being on the East coast I'm usually around 100ms. I would agree that animation locks do seem to be used as some type of mechanism to try to cope for some back-end issues, it would also seem to affect the jobs to different degrees.

By the way- on a separate topic- I've learned to keep a sense of humour in FL. Every once in a while (depending upon the patch, perhaps) , the latency will get particularly bad, I've had the enjoyable experience to dying to invisible opponents because they just shown up after I die :D

---

I used to be limited by my PC, so yeah 30ms with no FPS issues is pretty sweet, but likely makes the animation locks more noticeable.

Agreed a sense of humor is a big help for multiple reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think some of this was a feature in 7.0, and the hit detection changes made matters significantly worse in 7.1. Of the things you mention, I think the following are particularly galling and non-sensical:

1. A skill doesn't land because the target died, yet the skill still goes on cooldown. This is bad in general and completely incomprehensible when the animation does not even start.

2. Health steal via damage actions. This used to be somewhat reliable (e.g., WAR under bloodwhetting). In 7.1 it seems mostly ineffective, or at least unpredictable and based on the whims of hit detection.

Along with the other issues you mention, this leads to a situation where the game appears very fast (lots of motion), but skill application feels like you're playing on ketamine.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

This was already a thing before 7.1. I've lost countless Wyrmwind Thrusts because I was polymorphed as I fired it, and even though the button was pressed, no damage or animation happened.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Yes because the damage resolution, even if calculated at snapshot, resolved later. Right now it still does resolve later (and sometimes much later depending on the skill), but whether it's calculated when it resolve due to the changes or not doesn't change the fact that the server thinks you pressed the button and used the skill anyway. Right now I'm getting ghosted Dances of the Dawn with no buff gained when I cast it on a target that dies too early before it lands.

That's the problem with increased delays like those, and the more time it takes for a skill to land, the more chances are that you'll either overkill/ghost/lose effects.

---

Thanks for the feedback! Then I know without a doubt now that I’m not imagining things at least and that it’s not just a problem on my end.

It sucks that this was already a thing before but I have the feeling that it happens a lot more often now (probably because of the things Valence explained). At least I don’t remember this level of unreliability before.
Esp. in situations where I was about to die I am relatively sure that I used to achieve “mutual” kills (or at least non-lethal counter hits) from time to time in the past because my last skill would still go off in time. That hasn’t happened once now.

Two other things I noticed:

When I get stunned I lose my skill without triggering an effect, which is probably the same thing Aco505 described when being polymorphed.

But, I think I have also observed entire AoEs being nullified when I hit someone guarding. Or perhaps it hits but now the guard effects (massively decreased damage and canceled effects) apply to the AoE as a whole?
I am certain that at least once or twice somebody who was not the target but stood directly in front of me and tanked a stun + damage beam right to the face was unaffected by it. And there are many more cases where I at least believe it happened. I could also swear Black Comet (12k circle AoE) gets eaten regularly when the target guards, leaving people standing right beside the guarding person and clearly still in the AoE’s range unscathed.

Are other people having the same problems or was I probably just weirdly unlucky (people pre-purifying or having shields in those moments without me catching it)? Because it feels as if it happens too often to be a coincidence.
But I'm really not sure on this one because I don't know if it even makes sense/could possibly happen from a technical standpoint.

It was not a problem before because like in pve calculations and effects were granted at snapshot, even if damage and healing resolved later.

You mean AoEs (potentially) getting eaten by guard?
But that change in the calculation process should only be relevant for the person guarding right? Everybody else hit by the same AoE should suffer its full effect if they don't guard/mit etc.?

Late to the party, I know....

Biggest issue I have with the update to PVP. Is the Warrior's Primal Scream into Primal Wrath requirement...I have 15 seconds to use 3 weapon skills. But...there's a 2second GCD so that means 3 skills takes 6 second to execute. Leaving me with 9 seconds to fight against the horrible Tab-targeting (don't even get me started; and yes, I know what I'm talking about, I tried all the settings and their combinations). Then execute the attack while spinning to keep the target in front of me and in range.

But Oro doesn't count, which if off the GCD. Blota and Onslaught also don't count, but Inner Chaos (Blota morph) does.

This means I only have Fell Cleave, Primal Rend and Primal Ruination as "immediate use" abilities to trigger the 3 weapon skills.

So, what ends up happening is I pretty much never get Primal Wrath before it expires.

Meanwhile, Dragoon gets to instantly use their Sky Shatter upon executing Sky High.

As far as I know, Warrior is the only one that has a "charge up" (3 attacks) requirement on their Ultimate.

If it's the 'Bind' that's tripping us up and forcing the "charge up" (3 attacks) 'for balance'....just replace it with 'Heavy' then. Or remove the secondary effect all together. - Personally, I'd go for a second Inner Release "rebuff". That way we could 'pre-use' Primal Scream to setup for a wrecking crew charge in.

The tab-targeting has been a major cause of CC trauma for me. I don't know why but no matter which direction I choose for targeting it someway always starts at the target furthest away from the one I actually want to target and then takes the most convoluted route/order to get there...
It doesn't help that people moving completely messes up the order so if your intended target or another person runs around you'll target the same people you don't want to select repeatedly before you get to the one you want.
The sorrow of controller and keyboard-focused players, sigh.

In addition to the FL grievances produced by dev decisions, some of the players have also managed to hit a new low in 7.1.

The 3-2-1-GO macro has always been excessive IMO, particularly with SFX on each message, but that's simply not annoying enough for some DRKs.

Aether is now suffering

5-4-3-2-1-ATTACK

With SFX.

This means that if such commanders say absolutely nothing else during the match (hahahaha), they are polluting the airwaves for 25% of the running time.

SQEX can we please have a mute function that removes muted players completely from the chat? Or a throttle on chat in FL so that these narcissists are prevented from spamming quite so much?

The amount of Crowd Control is excessive. At this point just remove purify. Im ok not playing the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm wondering if it feels different when your PC is plugged into a test server. Any other explanation implies serious SQEX negligence.

---

It probably does, but I'd expect that a company that has been running and developing a MMO for this long would be aware of this and would have tools to simulate server latency in their development environment... So even then it's still SQEX negligence. Or rather, I think they are trying to use animation locks to "hide" server latency, but that doesn't really work well and it doesn't feel good.

If they want a snappy and responsive pvp experience, they need to copy what wow is doing. (and perhaps simply get rid of frontlines or drastically change the format, 72 players is just too much and I bet it really limit the server tick rate that they can have there, and this in turn might be why they are so insistent on having these annoying animation locks)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

It probably does, but I'd expect that a company that has been running and developing a MMO for this long would be aware of this and would have tools to simulate server latency in their development environment... So even then it's still SQEX negligence. Or rather, I think they are trying to use animation locks to "hide" server latency, but that doesn't really work well and it doesn't feel good.

If they want a snappy and responsive pvp experience, they need to copy what wow is doing. (and perhaps simply get rid of frontlines or drastically change the format, 72 players is just too much and I bet it really limit the server tick rate that they can have there, and this in turn might be why they are so insistent on having these annoying animation locks)

---

Yeah, that's occurred to me too. Either that or they simply prioritize aesthetics over gameplay. And having just rerun the DT dungeons on an alt, it seems to me they're using latency via snapshotting to make PvE more "stressful," instead of relying on something other than dodge-ball to make dungeons challenging.

There would be many advantages with reduced team size, including introducing matchmaking without crushing queue times.

This has been the worst edition of pvp since stormblood. I get why they went the sustained damage route but I still think it’s the wrong direction. They went the sustained dmg route because people didn’t know how to use guard properly in frontlines and got absolutely decimated.

Instead now, we have more jobs that have skills that go thru guard and a shorter duration of purify cc immunity (3s duration). What is the point of guard when people can just sustained dmg you to death right when you get out of it or even while you’re IN it. Knowing when to purify or when to guard doesn’t have the same impact as it use to because they’re both less effective now. You can’t even use guard strategically now because there’s no “burst window” - meaning there’s no lull in people not being able to burst you down because of sustained dmg parameters. People are constantly doing a ton of damage and there’s almost no way you can survive even with full mp (in high level games) unless you have a healer or a pld to cover you (in regards to crystalline conflict). People don’t even need to learn their optimal rotation, they can just spam buttons now and people will die.

Either lower guard CD, bring purify immunity duration back to 5s or bring back burst dmg instead. Please for the love of all that is good squenix devs.

Being able to use guard/ when to burst at the right time was a skill most good players learned. Good players should not be punished this harshly just so that the rest of the players can have an easier time getting kills. Away with sustained dmg and all of dawntrail’s nonsense.

P.S. the old dmg registration was better. The delay in abilities/skills/spells/lb registering after being pressed is even worse than before. Sometimes I have to spam click a button to make sure it’s cast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nubrication

This has been the worst edition of pvp since stormblood. I get why they went the sustained damage route but I still think it’s the wrong direction. They went the sustained dmg route because people didn’t know how to use guard properly in frontlines and got absolutely decimated.

Instead now, we have more jobs that have skills that go thru guard and a shorter duration of purify cc immunity (3s duration). What is the point of guard when people can just sustained dmg you to death right when you get out of it or even while you’re IN it. Knowing when to purify or when to guard doesn’t have the same impact as it use to because they’re both less effective now. You can’t even use guard strategically now because there’s no “burst window” - meaning there’s no lull in people not being able to burst you down because of sustained dmg parameters. People are constantly doing a ton of damage and there’s almost no way you can survive even with full mp (in high level games) unless you have a healer or a pld to cover you (in regards to crystalline conflict). People don’t even need to learn their optimal rotation, they can just spam buttons now and people will die.

Either lower guard CD, bring purify immunity duration back to 5s or bring back burst dmg instead. Please for the love of all that is good squenix devs.

Being able to use guard/ when to burst at the right time was a skill most good players learned. Good players should not be punished this harshly just so that the rest of the players can have an easier time getting kills. Away with sustained dmg and all of dawntrail’s nonsense.

P.S. the old dmg registration was better. The delay in abilities/skills/spells/lb registering after being pressed is even worse than before. Sometimes I have to spam click a button to make sure it’s cast.

---

The thing about the sustained damage is that it really isn't sustained. Like the "non-LB" damage is now slightly more relevant, but with typical CDs being 20s or more, most jobs still burst then run away and wait.

Agree 100% about hit detection and buttons failing to do anything.

I like that in response to lower Guard CD, they kept the CD but reduced the duration of Guard in exchange of pointless movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

I like that in response to lower Guard CD, they kept the CD but reduced the duration of Guard in exchange of pointless movement.

---

This but unironically. Faster and easier to break line of sight when plan to jump in then disengage. If I get stuck in the open and need to guard as a last resort, it was always going to be a Hail Mary.

Except if you are one of the million people who play the game and has absurd high ping, making the whole thing vastly unreliable and even more dependent of server ticks to account for protection that even has impact against environmental damage such as Bombs, Cloud 9 winds, Samurai from Clocktower, bug from Red Sands...

They could have added the speed without reducing guard duration.

PAL and NIN both got nerfed in the latest patch, but GNB is perfectly balanced apparently lmao. There is no class that's going to 1v1 a GNB right now, it's not happening, just fyi. It's broken af. Fix it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

PAL and NIN both got nerfed in the latest patch, but GNB is perfectly balanced apparently lmao. There is no class that's going to 1v1 a GNB right now, it's not happening, just fyi. It's broken af. Fix it.

---

I second this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

PAL and NIN both got nerfed in the latest patch, but GNB is perfectly balanced apparently lmao. There is no class that's going to 1v1 a GNB right now, it's not happening, just fyi. It's broken af. Fix it.

---

I wonder if they're nerfing PLD to nerf stalling strats, when a better way to do it might be to nerf PLD's invuln rather than other buttons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I wonder if they're nerfing PLD to nerf stalling strats, when a better way to do it might be to nerf PLD's invuln rather than other buttons?

---

The overall theme seems to be they want things players to die faster so maybe that's the intention. I actually like the change with guard duration and movement. I'm fine with wanting to speed up the gameplay and how fast the situation can change. The only issue I have, as stated, is the obnoxious state of GNB. I main PAL, GNB has always been able to kill PAL 1vs1 provided it was played well, I'm fine with that and I fully expect that to remain the case. But the absolute state of that class right now is something else entirely, whoever it targets will get shredded instantly and you need the entire team to adjust to it to overcome the dmg output it does. It's way too disruptive to the flow of a match in CC.

GNB is still a very good job at top level (or meta for randoms) but hardly the best one, but it's probably one of those jobs that are beyond OP at lower levels, where they just run past your frontline casually and start murdering your ranged backline because nobody knows how to deal with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I wonder if they're nerfing PLD to nerf stalling strats, when a better way to do it might be to nerf PLD's invuln rather than other buttons?

---

No they're nerfing cover guard into elixir. PLD will be vulnerable for 1 second during the elixir, and probably even closer to 2s since there is always a small delay between the cover/guard and when the targer player starts potting. I do not know if this is what was intended with the guard changes, since their initial and stated aim is to reduce point stalling with people guarding when their team is losing, waiting for a game changing LB to crop up.

It's true that PLD can stall for crazy with its LB though. PLD's kit is pretty batshit even post nerf.

I think reducing Guard duration is probably a good thing (tentatively), because you don't need a Guard that lasts ages. Guard has many great applications but popping it when you're about to die isn't it as it's a proactive tool and not a reactive one (except vs certain LBs with delays). Being able to move back to cover a little better is probably beneficial as a tradeoff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

GNB is still a very good job at top level (or meta for randoms) but hardly the best one.

---

So which job are you going to take in a 1vs1 to get smoked by the GNB? fyi you're not winning that fight.

PAL is still good I'm not pissed about the nerfs, but if we're just going to allow one of the tank classes to have crazy damage output for no reason then why even try to balance the game at all? And if we're not going to balance classes against each other then what do we base it on. CC? FL?

Why are you taking 1vs1 in crystalline conflict? Jobs aren't designed nor balanced to do useless duels in random corners of the map... Else you could make the same argument between literally all job combinations. Why do melees absolutely trounce any ranged job? Are you also going 1vs1 when playing ranged? Do you engage in 1vs1 as a scholar of all things against any job? And yet SCH is S tier at top level...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Why are you taking 1vs1 in crystalline conflict? Jobs aren't designed nor balanced to do useless duels in random corners of the map... Else you could make the same argument between literally all job combinations. Why do melees absolutely trounce any ranged job? Are you also going 1vs1 when playing ranged? Do you engage in 1vs1 as a scholar of all things against any job? And yet SCH is S tier at top level...

---

So you're completely avoiding the question because the issue is the insanely high dmg output of GNB. "Ideal team composition at muh high level" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue either. So obviously when it comes to balance, all these factors have to be taken into consideration, hence balance.

Damage output is a phase of the game. It's still the most important factor. Healers and PAL and other support classes are great for winning games, nobody disputes that and that's the only thing you keep talking about for some reason. Killing other players is also important for winning games, you do that with damage and GNB damage is utterly ridiculous.

It's hard to address anything because you're not open to consider that damage isn't the only metric, and bring up silly arguments like 1vs1 which has literally no place in a team game. GNB has no crowd control beyond its LB to secure kills, GNB will be out of dashes if it tries to chase too long, GNB can be baited to overextend if it really goes full baboon and punished by a team that actually knows how to take advantage of this. If you're fixated on the scoreboards at the end of games, where damage tallies only tell a partial story btw, then you'll also have noticed that GNB damage numbers are padded like crazy at times because people keep hitting the GNB under nebula like monkeys, so guess what happens at the end?

If damage is such a huge factor, and don't get me wrong, damage is important, then why is that green/blue (no GNB) comps perform better than full red ones? Or than a full red one with a GNB?

GNB is a very good job though, sure. Not arguing against this. Perhaps I got baited by the 1vs1 argument...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

It's hard to address anything because you're not open to consider that damage isn't the only metric, and bring up silly arguments like 1vs1 which has literally no place in a team game. GNB has no crowd control beyond its LB to secure kills, GNB will be out of dashes if it tries to chase too long, GNB can be baited to overextend if it really goes full baboon and punished by a team that actually knows how to take advantage of this. If you're fixated on the scoreboards at the end of games, where damage tallies only tell a partial story btw, then you'll also have noticed that GNB damage numbers are padded like crazy at times because people keep hitting the GNB under nebula like monkeys, so guess what happens at the end?

If damage is such a huge factor, and don't get me wrong, damage is important, then why is that green/blue (no GNB) comps perform better than full red ones? Or than a full red one with a GNB?

GNB is a very good job though, sure. Not arguing against this. Perhaps I got baited by the 1vs1 argument...

---

I explicitly said damage isn't the only metric. Yes, if a GNB plays stupid he will get swarmed same as any other class. The issue isn't the survivability. It's that it has high survivability of a tank with much better damage than other tanks. I think GNB should have the highest dmg of all tanks. I think GNB should be able to kill most other classes 1vs1, I actually think it's part of the identity of the class that it has good dmg. Just not to the extent it currently is. And yes 1vs1 still does matter in a team game. Just because a 1vs1 is occurring does not mean it's happening at a "random corner of the map". If a match comes down to the wire and it's essentially down to a 2v2 or 1vs1 to determine who's going to win, having a lot of dmg is going to decide who wins that match the majority of the time because it's just about who gets bursted first. There are plenty of instances where that's going to matter.

And obviously healers mitigate damage. Any team with a healer is better than without one. Again I don't even know what that has to do with anything. Nobody even mentioned healers anyways that I remember except for yourself.

If you want to know how I feel about healers/PAL, look at my very short post history, there's a thread I posted in like a year ago where I advocated for it as the meta against another supposed "high level" player. I was advocating cover before this "sustain meta" was even a f'ing thing. I'm well aware of all that.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Big-Four/page2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

So which job are you going to take in a 1vs1 to get smoked by the GNB? fyi you're not winning that fight.

PAL is still good I'm not pissed about the nerfs, but if we're just going to allow one of the tank classes to have crazy damage output for no reason then why even try to balance the game at all? And if we're not going to balance classes against each other then what do we base it on. CC? FL?

---

By the way, there is no 1 v 1 any more post patch 5.1
In CC, I don't have an issue against Gunbreaker as Monk
Ninja is weak against Gunbreaker, yes, but Ninja is not mean for 1 v 1
Samurai is a gimmick, they are not suppose to 1 v 1
Dragoon is a buster, not sure people really 1 v 1 at higher tier in CC
Not sure about Reaper because i only find this job annoying rather than an issue

At higher tier play, I doubt Gunbreaker has much room to breathe
Donto + Full Metallic Field + Ranju would end a Gunbreaker pretty fast
Even in Rival Wing, you can see how quick a Gunbreaker got dropped

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

By the way, there is no 1 v 1 any more post patch 5.1
In CC, I don't have an issue against Gunbreaker as Monk
Ninja is weak against Gunbreaker, yes, but Ninja is not mean for 1 v 1
Samurai is a gimmick, they are not suppose to 1 v 1
Dragoon is a buster, not sure people really 1 v 1 at higher tier in CC

At higher tier play, I doubt Gunbreaker has much room to breathe
Donto + Full Metallic Field + Ranju would end a Gunbreaker pretty fast
Even in Rival Wing, you can see how quick a Gunbreaker got dropped

---

There's multiple 1v1's every game. They may not result in one person dying, they often don't. If you're fighting 1vs1 against a player for 5 seconds you're either giving up ground or you're gaining it. Winning those micro engagements forces players to peel off and helps as the "winning" player can immediately refocus on the objective. Yeah dude, we're not meeting somewhere for some arranged duel in the middle of a ranked CC match, no shit. Have we just devolved into utter hyperbole instead of dealing with the realities of how the shit works or what?

Monk is no threat to a GNB unless he started with no MP or something like that.

It's weird how people are acting like GNB isn't broken just cause it isn't part of the "top tier win trader sweat meta" or whatever, who gives a shit? Neither was ninja and it rightfully got nerfed. GNB is more of a problem than they were.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

There's multiple 1v1's every game. They may not result in one person dying, they often don't. If you're fighting 1vs1 against a player for 5 seconds you're either giving up ground or you're gaining it. Winning those micro engagements forces players to peel off and helps as the "winning" player can immediately refocus on the objective. Yeah dude, we're not meeting somewhere for some arranged duel in the middle of a ranked CC match, no shit. Have we just devolved into utter hyperbole instead of dealing with the realities of how the shit works or what?

Monk is no threat to a GNB unless he started with no MP or something like that.

It's weird how people are acting like GNB isn't broken just cause it isn't part of the "top tier win trader sweat meta" or whatever, who gives a shit? Neither was ninja and it rightfully got nerfed. GNB is more of a problem than they were.

---

What you described is not 1 v 1, it is called stalling and any FF14 job can do that right now if just to stall.
At same skill level, there is no 1 v 1 in FF14 post patch 5.1.
Even Monk lost their solo kill ability post patch 6.1
If you are seeing someone 1 v 1 kill right now, that only mean skill gap is too great that mechanic is not enough to help the weak one.

ALso, you need to be spefic on which mode you are in
Frontline, who would waste time on a lonely Gunbreaker?
CC, there is no merit to solo a Gunbreaker either
I would rather go keep a WHite Mage busy than waste time on a Gunbreaker
The person that i know who realies on Gunbreaker has been stucked at Gold 4 since last season ( and I only start playing CC last season)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

What you described is not 1 v 1, it is called stalling and any FF14 job can do that right now if just to stall.

---

What I described is most definitely not stalling, it's out dpsing another player and causing them to retreat.

And I don't need to be more specific about anything, it doesn't even seem like English is your first language tbh, there's nothing ambiguous about what I've said in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

I explicitly said damage isn't the only metric. Yes, if a GNB plays stupid he will get swarmed same as any other class. The issue isn't the survivability. It's that it has high survivability of a tank with much better damage than other tanks. I think GNB should have the highest dmg of all tanks. I think GNB should be able to kill most other classes 1vs1, I actually think it's part of the identity of the class that it has good dmg. Just not to the extent it currently is. And yes 1vs1 still does matter in a team game. Just because a 1vs1 is occurring does not mean it's happening at a "random corner of the map". If a match comes down to the wire and it's essentially down to a 2v2 or 1vs1 to determine who's going to win, having a lot of dmg is going to decide who wins that match the majority of the time because it's just about who gets bursted first. There are plenty of instances where that's going to matter.

And obviously healers mitigate damage. Any team with a healer is better than without one. Again I don't even know what that has to do with anything. Nobody even mentioned healers anyways that I remember except for yourself.

If you want to know how I feel about healers/PAL, look at my very short post history, there's a thread I posted in like a year ago where I advocated for it as the meta against another supposed "high level" player. I was advocating cover before this "sustain meta" was even a f'ing thing. I'm well aware of all that.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Big-Four/page2

---

You started with and I quote "So which job are you going to take in a 1vs1 to get smoked by the GNB? fyi you're not winning that fight." and then act all surprised when people reply that 1v1 is not a good metric for a team game, else healers would be absolute trash in the game (this is why healers were brought up btw, if you can't understand a an argumentum ad absurdum).

What Divinemights said above anyway...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

You started with and I quote "So which job are you going to take in a 1vs1 to get smoked by the GNB? fyi you're not winning that fight." and then act all surprised when people reply that 1v1 is not a good metric for a team game, else healers would be absolute trash in the game (this is why healers were brought up btw, if you can't understand a an argumentum ad absurdum).

What Divinemights said above anyway...

---

You brought up healers because of meta team composition to point out that GNB doesn't play into that as if that makes any difference to the point whatsoever, it's a complete non sequitur hence me saying it's irrelevant. And I've defined my terms as far as what a 1vs1 is. If 1vs1's weren't a thing in a "team game" then monks wouldn't try to sneak into the back row to assassinate a caster and would've abandoned that tactic because it doesn't help. Yes, power level in a 1vs1 scenario matters, it's exploited in every match. When you give one class top tier survivability and top tier DPS, balance becomes an issue, those are the two main aspects of the game. You can't at all dispute that is the case with GNB, they're better any other tank in this regard right now and you haven't disputed the fact, because you can't. You wanted to obfuscate the point by talking about what's meta as if that does anything to dispute the raw numbers. You just simply don't have an argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

What I described is most definitely not stalling, it's out dpsing another player and causing them to retreat.

And I don't need to be more specific about anything, it doesn't even seem like English is your first language tbh, there's nothing ambiguous about what I've said in this thread.

---

Yes, I am ESL and even i know what you described is not 1 v 1
I know 4 languages and yes I do mix up grammar from time to time
Yet, your description is stalling
By definition 1 v 1 is literally one vs one until one dropped
The only time you retreat is either side got extra add.

I am also playing Ninja (both Frontline and CC) and even I know why NIN/PLD got nerf bat.
NIN/PLD with Full Metal Field at a chokepoint, good luck with that in CC
If your HP is lower than 50%, it is Ninja's show and you can't stop Ninja when Paladin is covering
What does Gunbreaker offer at higher CC beside self ego?
If Gunbraker really matter, it would got a nerf bat already

You are not suppose to 1 v 1 any one post 5.1 and your ranting on Gunbreaker makes no sense
On Frontline, Gunbraker is a joke
On CC, Gunbreaker is threat around Gold or lower

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

Yes, I am ESL and even i know what you described is not 1 v 1

---

What you want to call it and what I want to call it is irrelevant, I've defined my terms and they're easily understandable and reasonable. I know this because I'm a PVPer and what I've described is PVP. We're not taking about FL zerg slop here, but 1vs1's even happen there, let alone in a 5v5. What are you even on about?

As far as English being a second language, you don't say? lol And you just started CC, you don't say? I'm speaking in English and PVP and you're a novice in both trying to lecture about semantics haha that's cute. But not really that constructive tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

What you want to call it and what I want to call it is irrelevant, I've defined my terms and they're easily understandable and reasonable. I know this because I'm a PVPer and what I've described is PVP. We're not taking about FL zerg slop here, but 1vs1's even happen there, let alone in a 5v5. What are you even on about?

---

Calling me one of horde stampede is biggest insult, lol, but consider you are non Primal
Do a little search and you can find my post history on this forum is STRONGLY against Horde Stampede
I am a lone wolf on Frontline 1 v 1 until patch 6.1 and that 5,000 kill achievement, i did in 1 v 1.
Don't throw in insult when you know absolutely nothing about the person you are talking to

You first attack my grammar and now attack my playstyle when you are on Zalera?
Right, sounds logic
I suggest you either present arguments to support your points on Gunbreaker

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DallsBeep

Monk is no threat to a GNB unless he started with no MP or something like that.

---

I originally don't want to be negative about this statement but since you likes to do personal attack
Allow me to address this statement
On CC, Monk is looking for group burst damage post 7.1, Monk is no longer a single target job
On Frontline, Gunbreaker can barely hurt a Monk.
It is Gunbreaker has no threat to Monk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

Calling me one of horde stampede is biggest insult, lol, but consider you are non Primal
I am a lone wolf on Frontline 1 v 1 until patch 6.1 and that 5,000 kill achievement, i did in 1 v 1.
Don't throw in insult when you know absolutely nothing about the person you are talking to

You first attack my grammar and now attack my playstyle when you are on Zalera?
Right, sounds logic
I suggest you either present arguments to support your points on Gunbreaker

---

Well I'm gonna do you one better. In every team PVP game known to man "winning your 1vs1's" has universally been a thing. I realize this is an anime game where like .03% of the population care about PVP and you have some big fish small pond syndrome or whatever, but what I'm describing is not only grammatically the correct term to use to describe exactly what I'm talking about, it's also just accepted PVP lingo. So yes, I'm not only insulting your PVP experience in general, but also thinking you even know what PVP is on this particular game. Hence you not even having the slightest idea what I'm talking about when I say "1vs1".

And yes, GNB is very broken because it's floaty trash. They may as well not even have animations and the way they can chain together attacks and nearly entirely circumvent the GCD makes them particularly blessed under 7.1 where so many classes are struggling with animation locks and delaysD