Will DRG and PLD still be next to useless in 2.0?

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Originally Posted by Tabula

Wait if BLM = Easy mode wouldn't that insinuate that they make things easier because they're better?

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There is a different between foolproof and "best way if you know what you do"

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I was being hypothetical, I wasn't suggesting we should exchange evidence. I personally don't save parse logs I would assume you don't either and the only videos I have are of random things. I was just saying that you seem like the type of person who even if I had undeniable evidence to show you, you still wouldn't change your mind.

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Because we would have more than enough evidence to counter you.

I'm not the best Dragoon out there but I've consistently outparsed Monks, especially in PuGs. It's how I've figured out that hate mechanics on Nael Van Darnus is based off of who is first and second on the hate list. (If your Melee team is first and second on hate list, Nael will never teleport to the mages. If your Black Mage is second on the hate list on the stairs, Darnus will STILL Auto-kill your members, etc.)

The fact that it's variable enough for it even to be an argument should tell you they are not nearly as bad off as your post suggests. Morso given the numbers of people disagreeing with you.

It's time to reevaluate your position.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I was being hypothetical, I wasn't suggesting we should exchange evidence. I personally don't save parse logs I would assume you don't either and the only videos I have are of random things. I was just saying that you seem like the type of person who even if I had undeniable evidence to show you, you still wouldn't change your mind.

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My point is that you have no proof.... Generally when someone tries to make a point, they have some kind of evidence to back it up... just saying

Here, I will go first... The top 3 are Drg Do you have any parses of Ifrit extreme with monks?

http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/m...box/ifrit5.jpg

Alright, some of you posting here that actually seem reputable have actually managed to change my opinion. I guess I was being a little overly pessimistic. I'm still not convinced DRG is the "best" but the posts by Meatdawg and Hyrist mainly have caused me to change my opinion that they can be on par. You win.

Did Ifrit with a PUG alongside my DRG friend and a MNK as the leader. One idiot blm claimed a WHM solo healing would be impossible with melee DD. It was a PLD as the tank too.

Killed that sumbitch in about 5 minutes and surprise surprise guess who was the only person to die at all.

Hate was never an issue and hell, as WHM I even got to nuke a hell of a lot without anyone getting anywhere near dangerous HP.

If your group puts in even the tiniest bit of effort, gets practice in and gets to play the classes they truly enjoy playing you see a big difference in performance. We did moogles with melee perfectly fine when it was supposedly impossible with melee DD (this was before jobs) or to combo them (it's not if your DD can manage to not spam their stuff). Our LS isn't even hardcore.

I believe all the jobs are in a good position now when you have people that are competent.

It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

Your post personifies a limited mentality in the game that needs to stop, because it's in conflict with the actual game mechanics, if not necessarily your personal experiences.

Furthermore we need to understand that even having what we have, it's still not the whole picture. SE could possibly screw the pooch on job balance or make it even better depending on how things change for 2.0. But if they listen to opinion over evidence they may overcompensate which may make things unbalanced for a very long time.

The thing that has me frozen in speculation mode is Battle Reigime and whether or not it rewards a balanced party set up or not. Things can go really south if people find a way to exploit it so that it benefits class stacking.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

You're right Block does proc more than parry but you're missing the point of that statement. WAR can almost completely nullify a 1500-2000 damage hit on command if they time their Foresight/Feather Foot usage right (or even with a random parry proc). This is just not possible with PLD. Over the long run it's entirely possible that the PLD takes less damage than the WAR but the WAR is evading the hits that count (the ones that can down you).
First of all, you do know that when you parry on foresight you only take 1 damage. However if you have a random parry proc you take more damage than a random block proc. Second of all, PLD can just as easily nullify a 1500-2k damage hit on command with aegis boon since it causes you to take 0 damage and also heal for 703.

That is completely dependent on the group. Unfortunately your experience/luck with getting decent people together doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game.

Again you are ignoring the big point. Blocks don't proc on WS. Having the mob in front of you w/ Divine Veil means nothing to 100-Tonze/10-Tonze/<insert WS here>. Parries do proc on WS and can practically be done on command with Foresight. Honestly I don't even see your point here with the whole positioning comment and facing the mob... If the mob isn't in front of you as a PLD or WAR you're not doing your job so that doesn't apply.
Block does proc on WS though. Have you never blocked against 100-tonze/10-tonze swing? Anything that a Warrior can parry and evade, a PLD can block. Not only that, PLD can also heal when they use Aegis boon, letting them not only completely nullify it, but heal at the same time. Divine veil also works on those skills as well.

You're right. If a PLD can't tank with 3.8k HP then they are doing something wrong. But how did that PLD get to 3.8k+ from the norm. See? The norm doesn't apply to you because you have a decent group. The norm is a full AF PLD with some decent accessories. That's about 3400-3500 after full party buff. Any simple ass WAR is standing around with 4k after that buff. It makes a big difference.
If War is easier for starters to tank in, good for them. Though if you can't get cobalt gear and single meld it, that's quite worrying.

Ahh... I assumed it wouldn't work since it was magic damage. FFXI mentality. I'll definitely start using that now.
Spirits Within isn't magic damage. The skill states "Delivers a melee attack at close range."

Definitely agree with you here. I did my first Hamlet run on WAR and switched to PLD right after. Far better experience... I haven't done Ifrit Extreme and I've only gotten Garuda down to 10% with PUGs. I need to find a group to down shit with. -_-;

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Towards the MNK vs. DRG. DRG tends to do the same damage in ifrit (extreme) due to the fact that their aoe damage to the nails is far superior. However towards damage on ifrit itself, monk is higher. This is why their damage usually equal about the same. The damage drg makes on the nails balances out the dmg mnk does on ifrit. This is why imo having both in the fight made it a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

Your post personifies a limited mentality in the game that needs to stop, because it's in conflict with the actual game mechanics, if not necessarily your personal experiences.

Furthermore we need to understand that even having what we have, it's still not the whole picture. SE could possibly screw the pooch on job balance or make it even better depending on how things change for 2.0. But if they listen to opinion over evidence they may overcompensate which may make things unbalanced for a very long time.

The thing that has me frozen in speculation mode is Battle Reigime and whether or not it rewards a balanced party set up or not. Things can go really south if people find a way to exploit it so that it benefits class stacking.

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This.

When it comes to mnk and drg I think it is a situational and skill level issue in comparison. They are both power houses done right.

Have you played PLD recently Timon? They drastically changed block mechanics in one of the lettered 1.22 patches I think and it's actually good now. It works on everything Parry does and now Divine veil forces (normal) blocks, you can see a huge difference in damage taken w/ a PLD tank now.

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Originally Posted by Madrox

This.

When it comes to mnk and drg I think it is a situational and skill level issue in comparison. They are both power houses done right.

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It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

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Yeah that's not what I meant. I'm not opposed to be proven wrong, It's just that most people don't have capacity to convince me of it, so I'm saying you won me over. I think the reason is I may have had some outdated opinions because I took a month off to play d3 when it came out and have been doing nothing but crafting since I got back.

I'm actually glad that they aren't as bad off as I perceived, I'm actually feeling slightly optimistic about playing them now.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Have you played PLD recently Timon? They drastically changed block mechanics in one of the lettered 1.22 patches I think and it's actually good now. It works on everything Parry does and now Divine veil forces (normal) blocks, you can see a huge difference in damage taken w/ a PLD tank now.

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Yes I have. And I'm saying it didn't go far enough with that patch. WAR still has the edge.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I'm actually glad that they aren't as bad off as I perceived, I'm actually feeling slightly optimistic about playing them now.

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Good to hear.

I haven't taken up paladin, as I prefer to specialize a set character to a set job scope. Lin is Dragoon, and I'm not sure if I'm taking other battle jobs up with her yet. I'll know more after 2.0. (I picture her a lot like a Valkyrie.)

But for Dragoon. Dragoon has a very powerful rotation if played right, especially on targets you do not have to constantly run from. That, and having a truck-load of attack from Power Surge can be downright dangerous for yourself if both yourself and your tank is not on top of hate control.

But I do have to say, it's performance is a bit more stat dependent. You've gotta have your gear in order to push the high overall numbers - though there's a debate on Piety vs Critical Attack Power is better for your body piece or not. (Meatdawg, do you have comparison parses on that, I'm not quite Lt. Rank yet so I can't test it.)

But seriously give it a push. After the buff, both of these jobs got an incredible boost and are worth exploring.

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Originally Posted by Dawiichan

Towards the MNK vs. DRG. DRG tends to do the same damage in ifrit (extreme) due to the fact that their aoe damage to the nails is far superior. However towards damage on ifrit itself, monk is higher. This is why their damage usually equal about the same. The damage drg makes on the nails balances out the dmg mnk does on ifrit. This is why imo having both in the fight made it a lot easier.

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If you can show me a screenshot of Block proccing on a WS I will never bring that up again and you'll have proven me wrong. Please do this. Don't worry, I'll wait.

That doesn't change the point, just goes to show that to play PLD you need to invest a lot more than for WAR. Aka easier. You're investing just to keep up with the other guy even though you're both wearing AF. There is your problem. Not everyone is hardcore or lucky with gear drops.

I stand corrected on Spirits Within.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

Yes I have. And I'm saying it didn't go far enough with that patch. WAR still has the edge.

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Maybe you're just better with WAR?

We've stopped using WAR and never looked back. PLD is too nice for our groups since we mostly have melee DD and never have any hate or damage issues. You don't need to be hardcore or lucky with gear drops either.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

But I do have to say, it's performance is a bit more stat dependent. You've gotta have your gear in order to push the high overall numbers - though there's a debate on Piety vs Critical Attack Power is better for your body piece or not. (Meatdawg, do you have comparison parses on that, I'm not quite Lt. Rank yet so I can't test it.)

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Which ever drg wins the parse is the one that can keep PS3 up the longest. (didn't die or didn't lose buff) That by far is the biggest contribution to the dps numbers you see. If you take PS3 out of the equation and break it down on piety vs crit atk I think crit atk would win out but I do not have any kinds of data to back that up.

Mnk's defiantly have there place to shine too as is the case in AV and killing Miser. Even on Ifrit Ex they hold there own. Drg's just have better top end damage potential and handle each nail phase much more efficiently.

Remember that the skill of the player far outweighs any class/job choice. The most skilled players can make any job they play shine above all others. Sure some jobs are better suited for cretin fights due to the nature of the fight but to dismiss a job completely based on how a few people play it is just bad practice.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Maybe you're just better with WAR?

We've stopped using WAR and never looked back. PLD is too nice for our groups since we mostly have melee DD and never have any hate or damage issues. You don't need to be hardcore or lucky with gear drops either.

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Better with PLD but have easier time in PUGs with WAR. That's quite possibly my issue (PUGs).

But it doesn't change a lot of the things I've said in the thread.

Yeah I really need to get Archer up to Chamelion level. Every time I maintain PS3, I rip hate away from the tank, and the only way to stack - emnity is to take a hard blow to my stats.

So really my current focus is getting Archer up.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Yeah I really need to get Archer up to Chamelion level. Every time I maintain PS3, I rip hate away from the tank, and the only way to stack - emnity is to take a hard blow to my stats.

So really my current focus is getting Archer up.

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I don't know how you've been getting by. Whenever I'm going DRG I go right into my first combo (Vorpal-Impulse-Keen Flurry/Hawkeye+Chaos Thrust) and I'm already yellow/borderline red. If yellow I go and do the front combo then pop Chameleon and go back to first combo.

Also don't ever do -Enmity melds (it's a total waste) as melee. I don't play mages so I can't comment on how good it is there. ;x

@Meatdawg have you guys managed to do 17 minute speed runs with melee DDs? I'm just curious since you guys are some of the better players on the server. My LS doesn't get to play too often and we are still on the Hamlet Defense phase, after deciding that running without anyone in 1st or 2nd is a waste of time. Very few of our members actually have BLM leveled up and it would be great to not need it since we're all pretty good players. I figure it would mostly revolve around using Invigorate early so when you get to "stopping points" where you gotta AOE your TP is ready. Bosses should be no issue with a group that knows what they are doing.

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Also don't ever do -Enmity melds (it's a total waste) as melee. I don't play mages so I can't comment on how good it is there. ;x

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It's more a matter of "there's really not much to be done with the waist slot" for mages. Militia belt never comes off my WHM, though.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

Which ever drg wins the parse is the one that can keep PS3 up the longest. (didn't die or didn't lose buff) That by far is the biggest contribution to the dps numbers you see. If you take PS3 out of the equation and break it down on piety vs crit atk I think crit atk would win out but I do not have any kinds of data to back that up.

Mnk's defiantly have there place to shine too as is the case in AV and killing Miser. Even on Ifrit Ex they hold there own. Drg's just have better top end damage potential and handle each nail phase much more efficiently.

Remember that the skill of the player far outweighs any class/job choice. The most skilled players can make any job they play shine above all others. Sure some jobs are better suited for cretin fights due to the nature of the fight but to dismiss a job completely based on how a few people play it is just bad practice.

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When it comes to ifrit extreme, I'm going to have to stop you and say MNK can definitely reach higher damage to ifrit himself than a DRG. However it is true that DRG is far more superior against nails compared to MNK. Which is why if you pair a good MNK and a good DRG together, the parse usually tends to be around the same since the gain on one side and the loss of the other equals it out.

Is the OP serious or trolling? Honestly I cant tell.

We use DRG & PLD for LOTS of endgame things. DRG is honestly 100% the best DD in the game when it comes to anything that isnt a 2 minute burn.

There is no way any other job can come close to parsing what I can on DRG in an extended fight such as Ifrit-Extreme. They hold their own in battle with multiple enemies because of their AoE abilities and massive TP generation. The reason MNK is so widely used on a fight like Miser is because it is a 2 minute fight. Typically, a DRG isnt going into that fight under power surge III so of course a MNK is going to be the ideal choice.

The same can be said for BLM. In a burst-damage scenario...such as Princess/Coincounter where a BLM can just expend all of their MP because they know the fight isn't going to be any longer than 2 minutes, then DRG isn't going to outparse them in that situation. That somehow makes them useless?

In a fight like Garuda, Ifrit, Hamlet, Skirmish...etc where it is an extended battle then DRG more than holds it's own as it is the TOP DD to take to those situations.

Caling it useless, is just announcing to these entire forums just how uninformed you are.

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Originally Posted by Dawiichan

When it comes to ifrit extreme, I'm going to have to stop you and say MNK can definitely reach higher damage to ifrit himself than a DRG. However it is true that DRG is far more superior against nails compared to MNK. Which is why if you pair a good MNK and a good DRG together, the parse usually tends to be around the same since the gain on one side and the loss of the other equals it out.

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I used to do mnk on our first runs and was always high on the dps parse but never above the drg. With all things being equal I think the drg still wins (not counting nails). PS3 does more then FoW in the long haul. There are better mnk players out there then myself and I would love to compare some parse numbers if anyone has ifrit ex winning parses.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

@Meatdawg have you guys managed to do 17 minute speed runs with melee DDs? I'm just curious since you guys are some of the better players on the server. My LS doesn't get to play too often and we are still on the Hamlet Defense phase, after deciding that running without anyone in 1st or 2nd is a waste of time. Very few of our members actually have BLM leveled up and it would be great to not need it since we're all pretty good players. I figure it would mostly revolve around using Invigorate early so when you get to "stopping points" where you gotta AOE your TP is ready. Bosses should be no issue with a group that knows what they are doing.



It's more a matter of "there's really not much to be done with the waist slot" for mages. Militia belt never comes off my WHM, though.

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We don't use drg's on either simply because so many of us job swap to speed up the runs. Ideally you want the drg to be able to maintain PS3. Miser dies in less then 2 min so it's much easier to throw mnks at it. BLM's are used to speed up the runs by aoe everything.

I have seen other LS use drg in their speed runs so I know it can be done but for use we just had something that was already working so no real need to change it up.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

I used to do mnk on our first runs and was always high on the dps parse but never above the drg. With all things being equal I think the drg still wins (not counting nails). PS3 does more then FoW in the long haul. There are better mnk players out there then myself and I would love to compare some parse numbers if anyone has ifrit ex winning parses.

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FoW isn't grasped by most people on how well it can be used though. PS3 increases atk power which makes DRGs do more dmg, yet atk power shows a bigger difference on AA than on WS. So while my AA go to around 70 on mnk, a DRG can do around 90 with PS3. However when you get a CDR of 30% and mov speed bonus, a monk can push damage so much more on ifrit that a DRG can if they don't do anything too reckless. That and the fact that FoW would be more effective on skills than PS3 is on skills. Sadly I don't have any winning parses saved onto my computer and we probably wont have anyone that far in the quest again for a few days since we just finished getting all 11 people their first relic yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

We don't use drg's on either simply because so many of us job swap to speed up the runs. Ideally you want the drg to be able to maintain PS3. Miser dies in less then 2 min so it's much easier to throw mnks at it. BLM's are used to speed up the runs by aoe everything.

I have seen other LS use drg in their speed runs so I know it can be done but for use we just had something that was already working so no real need to change it up.

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Yea we figured Miser would be about killing her before she moves since without her adds she's fairly harmless.

My LS is excited to go try AV again now that we all have much better gear than before. Thanks for the info =)

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

I don't know how you've been getting by. Whenever I'm going DRG I go right into my first combo (Vorpal-Impulse-Keen Flurry/Hawkeye+Chaos Thrust) and I'm already yellow/borderline red. If yellow I go and do the front combo then pop Chameleon and go back to first combo.

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I don't Keen Fury Chaos Thrust, for one.

In fights where you can maintain a consistant DPS cycle, Keen Fury on Doom Spike results in more Combo 3 WSes per rotation.

Chaos Thrust Combo + HE
Doom Spike Combo + KF, BS
Ring of Talons Combo + BfB
Doom Spike Combo

Using Quelling strike whenever available.

Depending on the fight I may have a Warrior available to Collusion me, preferably on Doom Spike.

I've no fear of using Elusive jump to pull down my hate as often as I can as well, and the open skill slot is occupied by Featherfoot, which is pretty nice to lower the damage on enemies with physical AoEs such as Darnus.

I will not lie and say I don't bite the dust more often than I would like to, especially in Pugs. I have to hold back in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Yea we figured Miser would be about killing her before she moves since without her adds she's fairly harmless.

My LS is excited to go try AV again now that we all have much better gear than before. Thanks for the info =)

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Too bad she likes to spawn the adds right on top of the party for the last 30%. Your whm better be ready to kite some hardys.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't Keen Fury Chaos Thrust, for one.

In fights where you can maintain a consistant DPS cycle, Keen Fury on Doom Spike results in more Combo 3 WSes per rotation.

Chaos Thrust Combo + HE
Doom Spike Combo + KF, BS
Ring of Talons Combo + BfB
Doom Spike Combo

Using Quelling strike whenever available.

Depending on the fight I may have a Warrior available to Collusion me, preferably on Doom Spike.

I've no fear of using Elusive jump to pull down my hate as often as I can as well, and the open skill slot is occupied by Featherfoot, which is pretty nice to lower the damage on enemies with physical AoEs such as Darnus.

I will not lie and say I don't bite the dust more often than I would like to, especially in Pugs. I have to hold back in some cases.

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This wasn't to question your rotation or mine. What I was trying to get across is how fast I get to being close to pulling hate. Which is how I'm not sure how you haven't gotten Chameleon yet. Elusive Jump cooldown is too long and the enmity reduction isn't worth (not to mention the DPS lost from moving away from the mob). I almost never use it (to shed hate) unless it's to avoid an AoE. lol

I find Elusive jump to be more effective the earlier you use it, so I'll hit it when I'm yellow to early red, and it'll typically drop me back down to Green. Easiest way to do this without harming DPS is position yourself so your jump slams you against the wall/arena border, forcing you to stay in melee range.

It'll take me the rest of the rotation to pull back into red afterwards, as the tank will have established their hate more firmly by that point.

Note, this is using AF feet for the added effect. (And the minor str boost as it puts me to cap.)

As far as how I've not gotten Chameleon yet. I'm working two jobs, playtime is heavily limited - so I swallow the difficulty managing hate in favor of pushing to get stuff done.

When I get Chamelion I'll likely be rotating the two skills to keep my hate low.

You mean MNK and DRG right? PLD is still a pretty decent tank and can be used anywhere. MNK and DRG in the other hand are pretty much gimp compared to Black Mage.

90% of the game events you will be asked to go as Black Mage for DD. That proves that something is wrong with this game.

As a Blm, I see a noticeable difference in threat generation of Pld over War, at least in fights where burning matters. I'm normally limited by threat with a warrior tank and instead limited by mana with a paladin tank.

DRG and MNK on Ifrit Ex are pretty much Equal. But It really depends on the player and the type of Ifrit. (Jump spam ifrit really kills DRG and makes it hard to get/keep PS3 up.)

I'd really like to see a parse though of 2 ppl with a more aggressive play style but still able to dodge cracks/plumes.

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Originally Posted by Deathmask

You mean MNK and DRG right? PLD is still a pretty decent tank and can be used anywhere. MNK and DRG in the other hand are pretty much gimp compared to Black Mage.

90% of the game events you will be asked to go as Black Mage for DD. That proves that something is wrong with this game.

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No that proves something is wrong with this community. Ever Job shines one way or another. Its not that MNK and DRG are gimp, Far from it actually. The problem is most of the community does not have the skill level to play mnk/drg effectively.

DRG and MNK are the two jobs with the highest POTENTIAL to surpass BLM.

It takes a very well geared, well skilled DRG/MNK to surpass a BLM. You can't expect any shmuck who picks up the job to instantly beat out the magic DD.

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Originally Posted by Deathmask

You mean MNK and DRG right? PLD is still a pretty decent tank and can be used anywhere. MNK and DRG in the other hand are pretty much gimp compared to Black Mage.

90% of the game events you will be asked to go as Black Mage for DD. That proves that something is wrong with this game.

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BLM isn't more powerful, it is only more convenient. DRG and MNK can easily out damage a BLM as a BLM can out damage them. It really depends on skill and gear who triumphs. So in actuality, all three DPS are pretty balanced. It is the fights themselves that cause the feeling of "not balanced", which isn't even 100% true itself.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

No that proves something is wrong with this community. Ever Job shines one way or another. Its not that MNK and DRG are gimp, Far from it actually. The problem is most of the community does not have the skill level to play mnk/drg effectively.

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i agree also with this evey class/job does have its purpose along with its use. some classes/jobs are used more then others one: the current player community really conforms to a set stragedy for content which causes the problem where blm or war are only allowed or preferred! (aoe fest)

two: most ppl dont know how to effectiviely play pld, mnk, drg, bard so they resort to jobs like war and blm that are generally easier to pick up since they are more dominant anyhow. also they choose blm and war since they are in most demand anyways so why would a unskilled person lvl, gear up and try to play a class/job that requires alot more knowledge then blm and war.

three: most of the content we have now really leans towards war and blm (aoe fest), hopefully in 2.0 we will have balanced content that each class/job shines and thrives.

i would say that the only class/job that is gimped is gla/pld all others are pretty much decent and balanced. even when a skilled/experienced well geared gla/pld the player is still at a disadvantage compared to war since gla/pld needs to be reworked and fixed. (not trying to start a argurment between war vs pld but is pretty clear which has the upper hand).
(also dont wanna discredit the war or blm saying they dont require any skill to be played,so no need to get mad and riot).

This is probably grounds for a witch trial, but I'm of the opinion that not every class has to be viable in every situation, particularly in a game designed around having multiple classes. Excluding classes from fights actually gives the developers more room to create interesting and varied encounters. For example, a boss who's physical immune or highly resistant, forcing a party composition of all mages, the fight revolving around intensive MP management. Not every fight obviously, but a few oddballs would give that game quite a bit of 'flavor' in my opinion

Respect for admitting you were wrong, now they need to make Monk a little stronger and every job is good to go

MNK a little stronger?? Does not compute.

See sig.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

MNK a little stronger?? Does not compute.

See sig.

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I don't get it what about the sig?

Damnit... This is what happens when I promise myself I'm only going to alt tab for no more than 2 min and I check in on some forums...

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg99/...ng&res=landing