Even our content creators cannot pretend to like the trashy writings of Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Gortys

If you want to assume that "harsh phrasing" means being critical, then that is on you. In fact, you make a LOT of assumptions here. We are discussing content creators and not reviewing the game, but you are mixing the 2. It is easy to do when one gets their feelings involved obviously.

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I make assumptions when things are unclear, such as the term "harsh phrasing". Unless you provide me examples of what this is, I am likely going to make an assumption as to what you are talking about. I do not watch Zepla much if at all, and this is true for all FFXIV content creators because I would much rather play the game than watch someone play the game. If you took any personal offense to how I read what you said, consider adding examples so I don't have to use extra brain power to try and guess what you are talking about. As for the thread itself, both streamers and personal opinion are involved due to the title of the thread containing what likely is OPs opinion.

In terms of any emotional investment, I have none regarding this thread. Are you sure you are not projecting your emotions onto me? Or are you upset with the terms I use to describe the game?

If it is the latter of the two, this isn't the thread for me to go on a full diatribe about what I dislike with DT.

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Originally Posted by Gortys

Essentially all critiques are not equal.

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Indeed, which is why Zepla was noticed by Yoshi-P and he stated he watched her video. She has more clout with SE than any one of us do and because of this, Yoshi-P does consider her input to be more important since she can potentially bring in a lot of players, which you noted you would be one of the one's Zelpla convinced to play FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Gortys

Brutal honesty at the moment is noticed more easily for sure, but often it is just as easily discarded by others whether positive or negative. And calling something "garbage" as Asmon and others may do isn't as helpful as some of the more lengthy and thoughtful posts on this forum - such as HighlanderClone's.

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Once again, not the time and place/thread for me to lay into DT fully. If I do elect to do this it would more likely be in a different thread. As for Zepla or any live commentator, it isn't easy to come up with corporate-safe language on the fly so I expect her to be a bit more casual about it than anything else when streaming. As for videos, it has been a bit since that video came out so I don't know if her tone has changed since then.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

There's also the fact that content creators tend to have a vested interest in keeping a positive opinion of their main source of content. There are very few streamers these days who thrive on negativity - Practical none that basically only play a single game for views. It just doesn't last.

The idea that a streamer whose career is built on FF14 is "grifting" by faking negativity for clicks is frankly ludicrous. They have so much more reason to want the game to stay good and popular than you or me.

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Specially considering how the FFXIV community is, and how it actually makes most of the content creators scared to say they didn't like something. It actually took her quite some time to finally decide to be honest and open up about her opinions on the EW patches. And even after that, as I can see in the VOD that was linked from before the timestamp, she tried to hold back a lot until that point.

Also, I didn't know that, but apparently she has a degree in creative writing. Which probably means not only it's something she must be very interested it, but it must make the story issues even more apparent to her.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

Specially considering how the FFXIV community is, and how it actually makes most of the content creators scared to say they didn't like something. It actually took her quite some time to finally decide to be honest and open up about her opinions on the EW patches. And even after that, as I can see in the VOD that was linked from before the timestamp, she tried to hold back a lot until that point.

Also, I didn't know that, but apparently she has a degree in creative writing. Which probably means not only it's something she must be very interested it, but it must make the story issues even more apparent to her.

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Even a casual writer could see that they immediately committed one of the cardinal sins of bad writing. You NEVER replace or sideline the Main Character with a brand new character until that character is established. You do not establish a new character at the expense of the character or characters your readers have gotten comfortable with. That is bad writing 101.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Even a casual writer could see that they immediately committed one of the cardinal sins of bad writing. You NEVER replace or sideline the Main Character with a brand new character until that character is established. You do not establish a new character at the expense of the character or characters your readers have gotten comfortable with. That is bad writing 101.

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Oh, I completely agree, 100%. And it's not only the main character issue, there's a LOT of bad writing going on, all over the place. That's why it's so worrying that the game was released like that. Not only the main writers, but no one inside Square Enix could see it?! Something really bad must have happened during production.
+ why it's so disappointing that a lot of players can't seem to notice it or expect more, after playing through many expansions with far better writing than this.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

Oh, I completely agree, 100%. And it's not only the main character issue, there's a LOT of bad writing going on, all over the place. That's why it's so worrying that the game was released like that. Not only the main writers, but no one inside Square Enix could see it?! Something really bad must have happened during production.
+ why it's so disappointing that a lot of players can't seem to notice it or expect more, after playing through many expansions with far better writing than this.

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Honestly, the pacing and locales are all over the place too... Here's 5 levels of something similar to Aztec/Incan style... SUDDENLY COWBOYS! Um... Okay. Sure. Why not. Seems a little odd to have those very different cultures next to each other in "Not America", especially considering the IRL history of those cultures, but Wild West it is. I can dig it. And it's a nice break from the house cat. And then. "Oh, you thought it was cowboys, but it was ME! ROBOTS!" WHAT?! "AND THE CAT IS BACK!" F--k....

I mean, we live among a generation that was obsessed with Marvel movies. Good writing is a boomer trope. It's all just good vibes and references now.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

People criticizing zepla for her takes on the msq are the exact same people who agreed with her when she praised the game
ya'll only like them when they have the "good think"

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Oh this is rich. You all group around content creators who have takes you personally agree with as well. It's not only the '' toxic positive XIV cultists '' that do this, so this accusations rings hollow.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

If you took any personal offense to how I read what you said, consider adding examples so I don't have to use extra brain power to try and guess what you are talking about.

In terms of any emotional investment, I have none regarding this thread. Are you sure you are not projecting your emotions onto me? Or are you upset with the terms I use to describe the game?

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

I admittedly feel for her a bit, ...... It is rather sad to see her have to come to terms with that...

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I wasn't talking about emotional investment of a thread. There is an emotional investment in the game.

I can only attribute the writing failure to one thing : absence of Ishikawa

it was already dipping 6.1 - 6.5, but 7.0 is plain bad

It almost feels like Endwalker's patch content was a taste of things to come. With that in mind, having done the first two zones of DT, maybe the EW patch content wasn't that bad after all.

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Originally Posted by BakoolJaJa

Doesn't matter if you understand it or not. The only thing that matters is that the devs and Yoshi P DO care. You don't have to like it. Other people don't have to like it. We could all collectively sit here scratching our heads in confusion and absolutely hating it... Doesn't change the truth of the matter.

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The question is whether the developers care about the specific opinions of the content creators, or if they care about how content creators represent the game to their viewers. The difference is subtle but important.

Based on the all the comments YoshiP made to Zepla during the media tour general Q&A per the way she recounted it, he seems to be more interested in the latter. The "thank you for the video" was just a lead in to "don't do it that way in the future".

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Originally Posted by Isala

The answer to that is literally in this very thread, with people talking about how Content Creators have sway over their audience. When the biggest XIV creator starts saying negative things about your game, despite the amount of people going "I'm a free thinker, and won't let their opinion affect me!", there's a major chunk of people who either share that opinion already, are on the fence, able to be swayed, or will just agree with everything their "queen" says about the game. So when content creators start slamming your game in public, you NEED to listen. Because now it's someone with an impressionable audience spreading opinions about your game.

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The door swings both ways. Content creators can have sway over the sheep in their audience that look to content creators to form their opinions for them but content creators many times adjust what they present to please their viewers (or to please those who have influence over whether they get to attend high publicity events).

I don't think any of the FFXIV content creators has such a large audience that any spread of opinions is going to reach very far let alone influence a significant number of players and/or potential new players. But I understand that someone who relies on content creator opinions to validate their own would believe otherwise.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

I can only attribute the writing failure to one thing : absence of Ishikawa

it was already dipping 6.1 - 6.5, but 7.0 is plain bad

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6.0 was plenty bad on its own and so was most of 5.1-5.5. I don't think Ishikawa is some god writer that people think she is. Doesn't mean the current writing is any better though, just means the current writers are below par across the board.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

6.0 was plenty bad on its own and so was most of 5.1-5.5. I don't think Ishikawa is some god writer that people think she is. Doesn't mean the current writing is any better though, just means the current writers are below par across the board.

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Basically, we're not asking for The Lord of the Rings, or A Tale of Two Cities levels of complex writing. We're just asking for more like Alice in Wonderland, or Stuart Little, over Goodnight Moon, or When You Give a Mouse a Cookie. Because, man. DT's writing felt like reading a picture book at times.

Content creators are a joke anyway or clowns with mics.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

6.0 was plenty bad on its own and so was most of 5.1-5.5. I don't think Ishikawa is some god writer that people think she is. Doesn't mean the current writing is any better though, just means the current writers are below par across the board.

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Why do you still play this game if you think it's been bad for half a decade?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Based on the all the comments YoshiP made to Zepla during the media tour general Q&A per the way she recounted it, he seems to be more interested in the latter. The "thank you for the video" was just a lead in to "don't do it that way in the future".

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Except it was far from being "just a lead in". Even if the delivery in her video was not stellar, her criticism was valid. Yoshi-P was thankful for it because it highlighted and helped bring the many deficiencies of the expansion to the developers' attention. And they listened. He knew that she was not alone in thinking this way and he quite literally told her that.

To add to this, having that video out helped the community at large not to be afraid to speak their mind about the state of the game if they felt critical of it. It's no secret that criticisms of the game were frowned upon, which prevented people from speaking up, fearing backlash.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Basically, we're not asking for The Lord of the Rings, or A Tale of Two Cities levels of complex writing. We're just asking for more like Alice in Wonderland, or Stuart Little, over Goodnight Moon, or When You Give a Mouse a Cookie. Because, man. DT's writing felt like reading a picture book at times.

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I understand, it would be at least a tiny bit better than what we got now, with a chance to be even excellent.

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Originally Posted by Priddy

Why do you still play this game if you think it's been bad for half a decade?

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You know there's other things to the game besides story? And can you people stop using this stupid argument already. You're not even addressing the criticism, just telling people to leave because you don't like they have negative opinions.

The story writers desperately need a heavy-handed editor to hem them in and keep them from spiraling down very weird repetitive dialogue and story beats. There is a general lack of focus that is very bad, especially if you don't feel engaged with the themes and characters.

I think it's not only the horrible way the story was presented I think even the music took a nosedive this expansion with the genre's of music going all over the place and mixing genre's that don't mix well together plus the song that sounds like something Disney would write about accepting one another and equality in one of there kid movies. The music didn't sound very final fantasy this expansion but Soken probably only had so much to work with and was told by the writers what they wanted with the music direction.

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Originally Posted by Dranni

To add to this, having that video out helped the community at large not to be afraid to speak their mind about the state of the game if they felt critical of it. It's no secret that criticisms of the game were frowned upon, which prevented people from speaking up, fearing backlash.

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If they fear speaking up, then they need to grow a backbone as an adult. While there are some very vocal people who frown on criticisms of the game, most are adults that don't have a problem with opposing opinions.

No one should let those who are intolerant live rent free in their head.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If they fear speaking up, then they need to grow a backbone as an adult. While there are some very vocal people who frown on criticisms of the game, most are adults that don't have a problem with opposing opinions.

No one should let those who are intolerant live rent free in their head.

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Your response displays a complete lack of empathy. Not everyone is an alpha type that can withstand an angry mob of players ready to crucify anyone daring to criticize the game.

Zepla's video gave these people a voice and showed them they were not alone in how they felt about the game.

I watched a bit of that VoD before the OPs clip. The context is valid, she wanted to like the MSQ, and was enjoying it. But forgetting a character you just met only for Wuk to "remind you" literally broke her. That wasn't "Asmon bating" you witnessed a full body eyeroll.

She's saying the exact same thing a lot of us have been saying, and the cult is mad because her audience also has a healthy normey audience.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If they fear speaking up, then they need to grow a backbone as an adult. While there are some very vocal people who frown on criticisms of the game, most are adults that don't have a problem with opposing opinions.

No one should let those who are intolerant live rent free in their head.

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Are you familiar with the great community by the way? I am sure you know what happens to those who speak out against the game our great community inhabits if they are all by themselves and are not emboldened by others.

Most people don't fear the actual adults. The people they fear are those who don't know how to behave like adults despite being old enough to be called one. These failed adults are vindictive enough as to harass those who speak out both in and out of game.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

I didn't say she wasn't a big FFXIV streamer, I was saying I would prefer to hear from someone who has generally always been positive towards the game up to now and hadn't gotten onto the profitable hatetrain for FFXIV at some point. With how she spoke about Endwalker, why would it be any kind of powerful new statement to hear her speak negatively on Dawntrail? Now if Jesse or Preach or someone similar have a long conversation of how Dawntrail has de-railed their interest, I will be incredibly interested to hear their thoughts.

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"I would rather hear from someone who has never said anything negative about the game! People that don't like it are only jumping on the hatetrain for attention! But people that suck the game off all the time, THOSE are the people I can trust!"

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The question is whether the developers care about the specific opinions of the content creators, or if they care about how content creators represent the game to their viewers. The difference is subtle but important.

Based on the all the comments YoshiP made to Zepla during the media tour general Q&A per the way she recounted it, he seems to be more interested in the latter. The "thank you for the video" was just a lead in to "don't do it that way in the future".

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I don't think Yoshida is this kind of person tbh. It seemed more to me like "thanks for the video even though those were some harsh words".
"Don't do that in the future" would be a thread. Let's not go on that ice.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

You know there's other things to the game besides story? And can you people stop using this stupid argument already. You're not even addressing the criticism, just telling people to leave because you don't like they have negative opinions.

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Don't pop a blood vessel. The way I read your comment, it seemed like you were talking about the game in general.

But yeah, you're right, after that response I would prefer if you stopped playing LMAO

Feel free to let me know what argument I'm supposedly making and what criticism there is to address in what amounts to "the last expansion was bad, all of the patches that came before it was bad, the writer that everyone thinks is good is bad actually, and the current writer is also bad"

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Oh this is rich. You all group around content creators who have takes you personally agree with as well. It's not only the '' toxic positive XIV cultists '' that do this, so this accusations rings hollow.

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idk, the main complain people have with content creator that review the game ''Positively'' is the way they ''Dodge'' saying that something is bad, like they are scared to offend their audience. Like it the reason I don't watch streamer for this MMO, you can have friendly debate on their take on anything cause they just wont do takes on the game. Again, there a reason people jokingly call this a cult

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

The story writers desperately need a heavy-handed editor to hem them in and keep them from spiraling down very weird repetitive dialogue and story beats. There is a general lack of focus that is very bad, especially if you don't feel engaged with the themes and characters.

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I agree on the editing. A major problem with the current content imo is that devs are trying too hard to keep cutscene skippers and people who do one quest per night up to date on story by absolutely drenching us in exposition, even just between quests. One entire quest will be long exposition with a talking cutscene at the end, then you pick up the next quest and it brings straight into more exposition. It's wall to wall of people restating what just happened in a cutscene, or restating what you just talked about or did, to the 100th degree as though you are logging out or tabbing out every other minute of gameplay. They need to stop worrying about this. There are other ways in the game to get up to speed on what is going on if that's even necessary. Many people chain quests together and it can be a total slog.

There needs to be less dialogue overall as well-- characters need to speak more concisely even considering the traditional way of speaking. There needs to be less npcs entering msq just ranting off exposition and remaining ones should say more meaningful things in less time. Stop wasting dev time on useless models and useless redundant dialogue.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

Are you familiar with the great community by the way? I am sure you know what happens to those who speak out against the game our great community inhabits if they are all by themselves and are not emboldened by others.

Most people don't fear the actual adults. The people they fear are those who don't know how to behave like adults despite being old enough to be called one. These failed adults are vindictive enough as to harass those who speak out both in and out of game.

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Sadly, this comment is perfectly relevant on these forums as well, except the ones being spoken of would be those of the negative echo chamber here. As another poster just said:

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Not everyone is an alpha type that can withstand an angry mob of players ready to crucify anyone daring to criticize the game.

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Trying be positive on these forums and talking about how you like the game and watch the bitter cabal descend on you.

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"I would rather hear from someone who has never said anything negative about the game! People that don't like it are only jumping on the hatetrain for attention! But people that suck the game off all the time, THOSE are the people I can trust!"

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Perfect case in point for the above ;) (And to the person I'm quoting, to spell it out for you, the person you're responding to was pointing out that hearing negative takes from people who have been negative for awhile just doesn't really mean anything. If people who have always been positive about the game started going negative, however, it would lend the criticism more validity.)

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Sadly, this comment is perfectly relevant on these forums as well, except the ones being spoken of would be those of the negative echo chamber here. As another poster just said:



Trying be positive on these forums and talking about how you like the game and watch the bitter cabal descend on you.



Perfect case in point for the above ;) (And to the person I'm quoting, to spell it out for you, the person you're responding to was pointing out that hearing negative takes from people who have been negative for awhile just doesn't really mean anything. If people who have always been positive about the game started going negative, however, it would lend the criticism more validity.)

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https://i.ibb.co/vX1ddX1/Screenshot-...-09-223817.png

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

The writing in dawntrail was good. I get the feeling people who didn't like it can only appreciate the parts of literature when things are coming to a climax. world-building, character development over time, these things are still good parts of stories.

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You can do those things and not have them be massive infodumps like "click on pillar, learn about Turali history". You can also use themes like "friendship is important" or "understanding different people is the key to living in harmony" without constantly beating the reader/viewer/player over the head with them.

Speaking of literature, one of my biggest gripes with DT is that it keeps telling me things happened but never shows them. Things that should have been actual cutscenes instead of "random barely-important NPC does basic emote, pan to second random barely-important NPC who does basic emote".

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If they fear speaking up, then they need to grow a backbone as an adult. While there are some very vocal people who frown on criticisms of the game, most are adults that don't have a problem with opposing opinions.

No one should let those who are intolerant live rent free in their head.

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Can you tell silent majority in game to grow a backbone and speak up like you did in your reply?

We have self-appointed representatives of silent majority who keep using them as shield to deflect any criticisms.

meanwhile the streamer i watch is completely satisfied without any complains. and many of their watchers agree... i do not.

but there are people who fully enjoyed the dt story without any criticism

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Originally Posted by Dranni

Your response displays a complete lack of empathy. Not everyone is an alpha type that can withstand an angry mob of players ready to crucify anyone daring to criticize the game.

Zepla's video gave these people a voice and showed them they were not alone in how they felt about the game.

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It's not a lack of empathy. I was them in the past.

Fortunately, I had someone that showed me that there was nothing to fear if I stood up for myself and my opinions. That we do have ways to deal with those who get enraged by those that express a dissenting opinion. That they aren't worth the headspace that could be used for better purposes than worrying about what a waste of human being is going to say.

I appreciated the blunt honestly. It might have been a difficult road at first but it was far better for me than those who would pat me on the head and sugarcoat things while doing nothing to support me in improving my circumstances.

No one should fear expressing their opinion whether popular or unpopular.

Honest question becuase this is something I have never fully understood but why should the playerbase care that content creator likes/dislikes something about the game?

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Honest question becuase this is something I have never fully understood but why should the playerbase care that content creator likes/dislikes something about the game?

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You don't understand the role of public figures in society and why people care about them at least on a superficial level? Wow you must be sheltered. That's not unique to any game even, its a staple of humanity in general.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

The writing in dawntrail was good. I get the feeling people who didn't like it can only appreciate the parts of literature when things are coming to a climax. world-building, character development over time, these things are still good parts of stories.

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I thought so too at first before i actually finished the story.

BUT now i can say the world building is good, character development is BAD and the climax is THE WORST

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Originally Posted by Ath192

You don't understand the role of public figures in society and why people care about them at least on a superficial level? Wow you must be sheltered. That's not unique to any game even, its a staple of humanity in general.

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Bit presumptuous of you to assume I must be sheltered because I don't understand why a youtuber not liking the writing of a video game is important news.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not a lack of empathy.

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You may not feel this way or be aware of that, but that is the way your post came across.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No one should fear expressing their opinion whether popular or unpopular.

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In principle, I do agree with your statement, I think everyone should build the courage to stand up for themselves, voice their opinions, and have the resilience to do so in a potentially hostile environment that the mob mentality undoubtedly is. And in a perfect world, they would.

However, that is not the reality. It's against human nature to dive head-first into a conflict where you know upfront you will be outnumbered, outyelled, and likely personally attacked for having what you think is an unpopular opinion. So people don't. It's an unrealistic expectation for the general population to do so.