The new MCH is still a total joke

Yeah, its a total joke that the selfish phys range dps is still below many other jobs. It provides not a single buff and still deals low dps compared to others. It's really hard to justify picking MCH rather than BRD or DNC. Don't remember the situation in ShB right now, but Endwalker sure was like this and I do not like to see the next 2 years either. They seem so adamant on their decisions and only up some potencies depending when a new savage tier releases. It's a shame that job adjustments take so long or even to get considered by a dev.

BRD and DNC aren't fairing much better than MCH (and neither is SMN, but I'd argue SMN brings more actual utility than us with raise). RDM seems a bit above so far, in between the cool guys's club and rphys. 10% discrepancy of damage output isn't something unheard of unfortunately, it has been the case in early ShB and EW as well. I don't understand why it keeps happening and why they do not learn.

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On another note I want to apologize for giving out slightly misinformed statements on Flamethrower, and while I do think the skill is still extremely underwhelming and you can just ignore it without feeling any difference, it appears that it managed somehow to stay competitive with the rest of the kit it conflicts with, as it's still an extremely slight gain at 4 targets and above (when it was 3 targets in EW), like ACB right now (equal to heat blast at 4 targets). Our AoE mostly got less effective at lower amounts of targets.

Still crossing my fingers for something to be done about it, and perhaps some AoE on battery as well who knows...

Took a look and yep, damage wise MCH isn't fairing too good, remember seeing it was pretty bad in EW too and it hasn't improved.

Why though? Do they punish it with how relatively easy it is to play compared to other selfish jobs like SAM and BLM? That'd be petty so I doubt it, I think it's just ignorance and neglect.

Disappointing for me as, while I know some miss how it was in HW, personally I really enjoy the high APM of MCH, the rotation is simple yet satisfying to execute. It's not like healers where they're simple yet boring as sin thanks to spamming one button.

It is indeed very disappointing that MCH (BRD and DNC as well) are again at the bottom of the dps charts. The "ranged tax" is outdated with wall bosses with hitboxes that cover 90% of the arena and no positionals.
Now the only reason to have a rphys is the % party bonus buff is our only value over other jobs. Maybe it should be integrated in our dps?

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Originally Posted by seolhyun

i know theyve been going this route for awhile but seeing gauss and ricochet turn into tossing random laser beams kinda sad. feel like mch loses more and more of the gunner aspect every xpac. i really wish the next physical ranged is a dual pistol gunner that only focuses on guns and not throwing random robots and tools.

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To be fair, They took a lot of inspiration from FF6 Machinist, wich is mostly running around with funny tools. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of tools used in animation are copy pasted from that game. So it kinda play into the job Fantasy already established in the serie.

Gameplay wise, MCH is much better to play, Excavator and Full Metal Field are great to use, the Hypercharge phase animation change make it much more satisfying to use, Barrel Stabilizer change & Drill charge are a godsend that allows much more flexibility and allow more skill expression.

But...

• Wildfire remains unchanged, it's animation lacks punch and its explosion doesn't deal aoe damage.
• Automaton Queen is unchanged, I wish it would change into a stack charge and attacking the target we attack so we can have some sort of control over it. Also AQ is still annoying in dungeon where it sometimes leaves too early because its timer is as 0 but its current target is dead, it won't bother seeking a new target.
• Flamethrower... Flamethrower is there and unchanged... With how the heat management evolved, I wish it would become a GCD that generate heat. It could also be a Drill/Bio Blaster follow-up, similar to Chainsaw and Excavator!
• MCH also still suffers from a big issue, its "selfish DPS" state doesn't fit in the ranged role. Please either buff the ranged role or adjust the job to bring buffs to the party.

Again, the changes are fantastic, but the problem remains in what did not changed.
Still, I believe this is the best MCH iteration since its introduction, but at least remove the range tax that makes no sense, especially when compared to Viper that can strike at range without losing damage.

I can't help but feel like the MCH single target and the MCH AOE rotations were made by two different people, I LOVE the single target.
While it could do with some potency buffs a selfish DPS should not be below support DPS, the gameplay aspect of it feels fantastic.

However, our AOE gameplay is absolute dogwater.

Flamethrower is a borderline useless ability, it has its uses, but its impact is minimal, and you almost always cancel it after a few ticks.
Something simple like making it a combo style skill with bio blaster could be an option where it ignites the bio blaster dot, causing it to do more damage over time or consume the dot instantly doing all its damage up front.

Wildfire bomb for some reason does not deal any AOE damage even tho it's a literal pack of dynamite we attach to a target
It should simply do splash damage to surrounding targets, it could do with being a bit more satisfying to use too as it feels weak.

Our queen is useless in AOE too, just give it a spin attack or something like that.

Auto Crossbow does not lower the CD of Double Check and Checkmate, meaning it's not worth using our AOE skill on anything at 4 targets or below, which makes no sense.

Come on square, you can do better than this.

What I personally want more for MCH is ability interplay. For flamethrower for example, you could make it deal crit ticks as long as the target suffers from bioblaster. Or perhaps using it consumes battery and generates heat + big damage. I don't know what, but something. A lot of other skills could also benefit from actually talking to each other...

It's the cleanest MCH iteration, but in terms of gameplay intricacies, it truly pales in comparison to pre ShB MCH versions.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

[*]MCH also still suffers from a big issue, its "selfish DPS" state doesn't fit in the ranged role. Please either buff the ranged role or adjust the job to bring buffs to the party.
(...)
Still, I believe this is the best MCH iteration since its introduction, but at least remove the range tax that makes no sense, especially when compared to Viper that can strike at range without losing damage.

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The only selfish DPS bottom of it's category! If you're here to DPS and are the worst at it, doesn't feel good.
SE admitted huge bosses hitboxes are a problem. Yet the 2 first extremes.... huge hitboxes again!!!
Melee downtime is an urban legend.

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Originally Posted by RaZz0r

I can't help but feel like the MCH single target and the MCH AOE rotations were made by two different people, I LOVE the single target.
While it could do with some potency buffs a selfish DPS should not be below support DPS, the gameplay aspect of it feels fantastic.

However, our AOE gameplay is absolute dogwater.

Flamethrower is a borderline useless ability, it has its uses, but its impact is minimal, and you almost always cancel it after a few ticks.
Something simple like making it a combo style skill with bio blaster could be an option where it ignites the bio blaster dot, causing it to do more damage over time or consume the dot instantly doing all its damage up front.

Wildfire bomb for some reason does not deal any AOE damage even tho it's a literal pack of dynamite we attach to a target
It should simply do splash damage to surrounding targets, it could do with being a bit more satisfying to use too as it feels weak.

Our queen is useless in AOE too, just give it a spin attack or something like that.

Auto Crossbow does not lower the CD of Double Check and Checkmate, meaning it's not worth using our AOE skill on anything at 4 targets or below, which makes no sense.

Come on square, you can do better than this.

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yeah i have no input on the damage whatsoever but it probably has simultaneously one of my favorite single target gameplay and by far my least favorite AOE gameplay in the entire game so far. very strange job

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Originally Posted by RaZz0r

I can't help but feel like the MCH single target and the MCH AOE rotations were made by two different people, I LOVE the single target.
While it could do with some potency buffs a selfish DPS should not be below support DPS, the gameplay aspect of it feels fantastic.

However, our AOE gameplay is absolute dogwater.

Flamethrower is a borderline useless ability, it has its uses, but its impact is minimal, and you almost always cancel it after a few ticks.
Something simple like making it a combo style skill with bio blaster could be an option where it ignites the bio blaster dot, causing it to do more damage over time or consume the dot instantly doing all its damage up front.

Wildfire bomb for some reason does not deal any AOE damage even tho it's a literal pack of dynamite we attach to a target
It should simply do splash damage to surrounding targets, it could do with being a bit more satisfying to use too as it feels weak.

Our queen is useless in AOE too, just give it a spin attack or something like that.

Auto Crossbow does not lower the CD of Double Check and Checkmate, meaning it's not worth using our AOE skill on anything at 4 targets or below, which makes no sense.

Come on square, you can do better than this.

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This is also my issue. The general aoe rotation feels so extremely clunky. Meanwhile, BRD got AOE on everything.
- You use auto crossbow, but cannot refresh your new abilities Double Check and Checkmate, which are sooo satisfying to use.
- You use Flamethrower let it tick and wait. I dont really find it exciting to stand still for 10s and do nothing. That's not really gameplay, even if you could sip a tea meanwhile. Make it a DoT maybe?
- Im not a big fan of Full Metal Field honestly, it does block line of sight. Even if its for a very short time. Also, wish it was an oGCD.

my take on flamethrower is to upgrade it to some kind of fireball projectile, so instead of spray and wait, we just spew ball of fire, explode on contact and deal AOE damage and dot for... i dont know 20 seconds? basically change it to fire and forget ability

In my opinion AOE is a minor issue since most people don't care about how a mch performs in a dungeon, that being said we are talking about a selfish class that should be at the top of the ladder with SAM VPR and BLM. Now looking at the statistics of the CURRENT content (the two ext) it is last behind even the DNC, and I am referring to the 99+ parses given that the mediocre scores are irrelevant when looking at class balance. I don't know if they don't care at all (which is likely given that this class has sucked for years now) or they can't handle the situation anymore with all these raid buffs, but if it gets to the point that I have to change class because I get kicked from a PF to do ultimate or savage given the uselessness of MCH I would rather leave ff.

Replace Flamethrower with Grenado Shot but make it a Molotov Cocktail.

The fact that freaking Auto Crossbow still doesn't refresh Double Check at the very least burns my ass.

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Originally Posted by MaD-SkG

In my opinion AOE is a minor issue since most people don't care about how a mch performs in a dungeon, that being said we are talking about a selfish class that should be at the top of the ladder with SAM VPR and BLM. Now looking at the statistics of the CURRENT content (the two ext) it is last behind even the DNC, and I am referring to the 99+ parses given that the mediocre scores are irrelevant when looking at class balance. I don't know if they don't care at all (which is likely given that this class has sucked for years now) or they can't handle the situation anymore with all these raid buffs, but if it gets to the point that I have to change class because I get kicked from a PF to do ultimate or savage given the uselessness of MCH I would rather leave ff.

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I dont follow parses much, but it certainly sounds disheartening. I only remember how they nerfed down the potencies of the big nukes over time. Now the job even lost his position between the other phys. ranges, huh?
That's why I hope this thread will raise awareness?
It feels like they're ignoring this job on purpose...
And I definetly do not want to wait til 3. savage tier for some minor potency buffs.

There is also a new little thing on Drill that has appeared at the level you get 2 charges of it: the skill suddenly stops being affected by sks, which on its own, isn't a big issue since one can work around by not trying to use it immediately off cd, and it mostly barely impacts the opener at speeds faster than 2.5s.

But I do wonder if it's tied to a system limitation in the code, just an oversight, or actually part of a conscious design choice.

Of all, leave check mate and double check as is, the animation is too good to separate them (and I prefer checkmate even on ST)

the rest yeah, we need more AoE with our stuff

One small gripe I don't think I've seen mentioned, maybe it's just me, but the sound effect for Checkmate is... clunky? The moment you cast it, it immediately makes the Ricochet sound effect, but nothing has even happened yet in terms of the animation. Your character hasn't even tossed out the little lazer dudes, but you're already getting the Ricochet sound cue that you've been used to hearing for the last 42 levels. For me, that initially threw off my Hypercharge rhythm, cause the moment I hear that Ricochet sound, I go to press Blazing Shot again, but nothing happens because I've pressed it too early because my brain was responding to a sound cue I was used to--
tl;dr - Remove the Ricochet sound effect from the start of Checkmate, please. It's confusing, and it almost feels like they just forgot to come up with something different.

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Originally Posted by Valence

There is also a new little thing on Drill that has appeared at the level you get 2 charges of it: the skill suddenly stops being affected by sks, which on its own, isn't a big issue since one can work around by not trying to use it immediately off cd, and it mostly barely impacts the opener at speeds faster than 2.5s.

But I do wonder if it's tied to a system limitation in the code, just an oversight, or actually part of a conscious design choice.

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Most likely an oversight...?
I'm not sure, VPR's Dreadwinder doesn't scale on SKS either and neither RPR's soul slice.
But I forgot if this was already the case for Soul Slice before 7.0.

Make Flamethrower the AoE version of Air Anchor (new multitool animation with no channeling; Flash, Noiseblaster, Debilitator), turn Automaton Queen autos/finishers into AoEs with falloff, make Wildfire detonation an AoE with falloff, and the rest of that stuff, thanks.

Also, I was leveling earlier and: the 2 charge bioblaster is amazing because you can keep the dot always, I don't think it needs a change tbh

Having played a bit with it i'll grant you it introduces a bit of dot upkeep during AoE (until you're out of charges and back to the 20s segments of pre lvl94). It's not bad per se, but it could be better. Right now it feels more like a gimmick to me.

Machinist has the lowest 3-step combo potency of all jobs, even before adjusting for personal buffs. at 960/3. Yes, it has less 3-step potency than tanks do. Samurai has the closest potency at 1000/3, but Fuga and Fugetsu mean that it has considerably more damage than said 1000 would immediately imply.
Automaton Queen's "12 second" duration is actually only 8 seconds because of how long it takes to spawn in. It loses out on 360-720 potency's worth of damage because of this.
At level 94, Auto Crossbow gets a potency increase, but Blazing Shot is still only 220 potency.

Bard and Dancer have had potency increases to their big burst skills, but Machinist hasn't. Instead, we get another charge on Drill, which only helps you if you're able to pool that for use in a buff window and in the opener, and doesn't otherwise.

Flamethrower doesn't give any Heat when in use, it used to in Stormblood and is barely worth using because it doesn't.
The Heated [x] Shot upgrade is confusing since other than Dragoon, it's the only job that has partially-boosted combos at any level. And all 3 "Heated" versions were added in Stormblood but at different levels, and Heated Clean Shot is accessed at level 64 instead of in HW content. Heated Slug Shot deals more damage than unheated Clean Shot does at level 60.
It's fine on Dragoon because its single-target combo is changed in every expansion's level range.

The Automaton Queen taking its afternoon when it loses its target is still a major issue...
It can result in a loss of 1500 potency.

Considering EX1 has extra target and we might see content with more than 1 target, the criticity of this issue gets higher to me.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Machinist has the lowest 3-step combo potency of all jobs, even before adjusting for personal buffs. at 960/3. Yes, it has less 3-step potency than tanks do. Samurai has the closest potency at 1000/3, but Fuga and Fugetsu mean that it has considerably more damage than said 1000 would immediately imply.
Automaton Queen's "12 second" duration is actually only 8 seconds because of how long it takes to spawn in. It loses out on 360-720 potency's worth of damage because of this.
At level 94, Auto Crossbow gets a potency increase, but Blazing Shot is still only 220 potency.

Bard and Dancer have had potency increases to their big burst skills, but Machinist hasn't. Instead, we get another charge on Drill, which only helps you if you're able to pool that for use in a buff window and in the opener, and doesn't otherwise.

Flamethrower doesn't give any Heat when in use, it used to in Stormblood and is barely worth using because it doesn't.
The Heated [x] Shot upgrade is confusing since other than Dragoon, it's the only job that has partially-boosted combos at any level. And all 3 "Heated" versions were added in Stormblood but at different levels, and Heated Clean Shot is accessed at level 64 instead of in HW content. Heated Slug Shot deals more damage than unheated Clean Shot does at level 60.
It's fine on Dragoon because its single-target combo is changed in every expansion's level range.

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- The main combo does 940 raw, but you're forgetting that it also generates heat and battery, which brings it up to +130ish from heat generation and +230ish from battery for about 1300 effective potency if I'm not mistaken. If the problem is that MCH doesn't deal enough damage though, then yes, everybody agrees on this and it's been a problem since its rework in ShB.
- That Queen takes 5s or 50s to wind up is irrelevant, its damage is balanced and baked to fit within the actual time she hits the target. You're not losing anything, if they gave you the full wind up time in damage, they'd probably adjust and nerf every queen move as a result to keep the same final damage.
- What's the problem with Blazing not being increased by that trait at 94? What would it achieve beyond making our AoE tools even less potent at lower amounts of targets (ACB and FT are already 4+)?

I do agree with the rest.

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Originally Posted by Valence

- The main combo does 940 raw, but you're forgetting that it also generates heat and battery, which brings it up to +130ish from heat generation and +230ish from battery for about 1300 effective potency if I'm not mistaken. If the problem is that MCH doesn't deal enough damage though, then yes, everybody agrees on this and it's been a problem since its rework in ShB.
- That Queen takes 5s or 50s to wind up is irrelevant, its damage is balanced and baked to fit within the actual time she hits the target. You're not losing anything, if they gave you the full wind up time in damage, they'd probably adjust and nerf every queen move as a result to keep the same final damage.
- What's the problem with Blazing not being increased by that trait at 94? What would it achieve beyond making our AoE tools even less potent at lower amounts of targets (ACB and FT are already 4+)?

I do agree with the rest.

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- Most jobs generate gauge from their 1/2/3 combo too, unless you're playing Monk, Paladin, or Bard.
- Fair point about the Queen, but considering our lower raw damage it'd be worth getting those extra punches in.
- Blazing Shot's potency is increased to 220 from 200 sometime after Heated Split Shot's potency is increased to 180 from 140.
Heated Split Shot now has 220 potency after increases at level 84 and 94, and Blazing Shot hasn't been increased to match.
The only reason why Auto Crossbow got buffed is because they realized that its potency was below Scattergun at level 90 so they made them match again.

In general the job just needs to do more damage. It shouldn't be competing for bottom of the barrel.

Changes want now; more damage, cd reduction on auto crossbow/scattergun for the ogcds during hypercharge.
Changes want future; better flamethrower, aoe battery.
Beyond that pretty happy with Mch.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

In general the job just needs to do more damage. It shouldn't be competing for bottom of the barrel.

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It’s a selfish DPS like BLM and SAM right?

I wouldn’t be surprise they add a raise to MCH and call it a day…

I love machinist now. Whenever I want to take a break and turn off my brain I just use the bing bing cowboy and look at all the cool animations.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

- Most jobs generate gauge from their 1/2/3 combo too, unless you're playing Monk, Paladin, or Bard.
- Fair point about the Queen, but considering our lower raw damage it'd be worth getting those extra punches in.
- Blazing Shot's potency is increased to 220 from 200 sometime after Heated Split Shot's potency is increased to 180 from 140.
Heated Split Shot now has 220 potency after increases at level 84 and 94, and Blazing Shot hasn't been increased to match.
The only reason why Auto Crossbow got buffed is because they realized that its potency was below Scattergun at level 90 so they made them match again.

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The point I was making is, you're comparing apples to oranges.

- You're still not explaining why Blazing would need to be increased in damage. Comparing it to the main combo filler or to ACB doesn't magically provide an actual reasoning for increasing its damage. A good reason to increase it could be to make hypercharge total damage more prevalent comparatively to the main filler, aka making hypercharge spike higher in comparison, which would add more value behind generating heat and using it properly. I am actually not opposed to it, as I do believe one of the core precepts of MCH used to be that it was the highest burst job in the game (we need old Overheat back..), but it would come with caveats like making our AoE rotation even less relevant at low amounts of targets.
- ACB's potency being below scattergun isn't a problem, since ACB's potency per second was still way above scattergun's. I do not mind the increase though, as again, it puts more weight behind heat and resource spending (even if at the cost of Flamethrower).

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Originally Posted by saiklo

I love machinist now. Whenever I want to take a break and turn off my brain I just use the bing bing cowboy and look at all the cool animations.

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Now imagine you could play this job and not make your group dps lower. And now, crazy idea, imagine all dps have the same DPS potential so you could choose your job based on fun and gameplay instead of meta!

I would like an increase in damage for the machinist. Since it has nearly no support abilitys (besides a short defensive cooldown for the party) it's only job is to deal damage. But also it has a pretty low skill cap and can move constantly wich is actually big on some bosses.
Either a buff to the overall damage or a proper form of support.

What annoys me the most is actually the AoE damage. That just feels sh*t and inconsistent.