Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

But what if I want a dishonest conversation about the Scions

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Ryne literally rode a Scion's legacy into the main party. I said it would have to be very familiar/safe. Ryne is depending heavily on the context of Minfilia and Thancred to even begin to work as a character.

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Yes, that's my point, she does fulfill that spot, and then she LEAVES. She builds on what came before in order to maintain plotline consistency and bolster Thancred's character, but branches out in Eden and the void quests, she's not a default member of the cast, and the greater narrative isn't monopolized by her after her relevance. That's the issue I have, the only default character should be mine. Having the scions hang around me all the time is making a large world feel small by limiting my interactions with newer characters.

I'm not even saying they are bad, I just don't want to feel constrained narratively by them, when the storylines I enjoyed most are the ones where there are less Scions present at all.

EDIT: Zero is also building on the void plot from Unukalhai and Cylva! Legacy of a character? How about literally working towards and accomplishing the goals of an entire different cast of characters you haven't met yet, despite having the same over arching mission statement and world origin? That is incredibly contrived. At least Minfilia gets a send off for her death! The other void residents don't even get non-optional voiced dialogue because of how hopelessly entangled the entire mess is.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

She's memorable because she died and she was a love interest of a Scion. Now, if a new character is introduced and is *familiar* (which breaks the rules I stated earlier) because they have some historical context with a Scion, that's different.

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That still doesn't change how shes literally just a plot device where Moonbryda was her own person who existed outside Urianger. Zero also Side Lined Unukalhai and Cylva In her plot Deviceness for the Void as filler content. Zero is literally Filler, shes a Calorie to give us a story inbetween 6.0 and 7.0 where we had 2 people with better writing and more personality, like Moonbryda, and would have served as better people to tell this filler plot.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

That still doesn't change how shes literally just a plot device where Moonbryda was her own person who existed outside Urianger. Zero also Side Lined Unukalhai and Cylva In her plot Deviceness for the Void as filler content. Zero is literally Filler, shes a Calorie to give us a story inbetween 6.0 and 7.0 where we had 2 people with better writing and more personality, like Moonbryda, and would have served as better people to tell this filler plot.

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You can say any Scion is a plot device in ARR outside maybe Thancred (attractive male sassy bonus) when they are first being introduced. Saying something is filler or bad writing just brings us nowhere because you can't prove Zero is filler. What we do know is she is thematically tied to Cecil, which is someone unfamiliar to XIV and has to work 10x as hard to have the same resonance as someone who is thematically operating with the Scions and the MSQ. Besides if we want to be really real, the Warrior Light is filler in the patch content, not everyone else.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Yes, that's my point, she does fulfill that spot, and then she LEAVES. She builds on what came before in order to maintain plotline consistency and bolster Thancred's character, but branches out in Eden and the void quests, she's not a default member of the cast, and the greater narrative isn't monopolized by her after her relevance. That's the issue I have, the only default character should be mine. Having the scions hang around me all the time is making a large world feel small by limiting my interactions with newer characters.

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So what you're saying is, given the perfect launching pad plus some time in the game she was able to become popular. That follows exactly what I am saying.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

EDIT: Zero is also building on the void plot from Unukalhai and Cylva! Legacy of a character

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This is a reach. No one pays attention to side characters or side quests as much as Scions/MSQ. The writers glossing over them is pretty much evidence of that. The main focus was that Ascians ruined the world, which I already said played a small role in Zero's origin story. As far as joining the Scions, yes she did, and you're actively proving my point by hating it. "I hate it, so contrived, get out of my Scions :(".

And I can't emphasize enough, if anyone is (objectively) filler in the patch content, it's WoL, because they totally are outside of probably 0.2% of the plot where they have some mechanical function in the plot I'm not thinking of (but even with going to the First, Zero could've done that so I am unsure).

You'd really have to scrap the Scion's altogther imo to make any improvement in this area (aside from giving it time) because I'm just not sure they can appease everyone by bringing someone new into this group that all came together and persisted under this same decade long struggle. It's like...who is going to live up to that really? Hence why I said it would be very difficult.

In the end we all know how the broad stokes of this expansion will turn out since the Scions will be present. There will be some ultimately superficial disagreement of this succession that everyone will get over the moment it is revealed that some kind of big bad is in the background that we must defeat with the power of friendship again. It would be more surprising if they arrived in the new world and had the self awareness to realize that as people with no knowledge of the region or it's history involving the two heirs that they have no business getting involved in the political machinations of this nation.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You can say any Scion is a plot device in ARR outside maybe Thancred (attractive male sassy bonus) when they are first being introduced. Saying something is filler or bad writing just brings us nowhere because you can't prove Zero is filler. What we do know is she is thematically tied to Cecil, which is someone unfamiliar to XIV and has to work 10x as hard to have the same resonance as someone who is thematically operating with the Scions and the MSQ.



So what you're saying is, given the perfect launcing pad plus some time in the game she was able to become popular. That follows exactly what I am saying. Besides if we want to be really real, the Warrior Light is filler in the patch content, not everyone else.



This is a reach. No one pays attention to side characters or side quests as much as Scions/MSQ. The writer's glossing over them is pretty much evidence of that. The main focus was that Ascians ruined the world, which I already said played a small role in Zero's origin story. As far as joining the Scion's, yes she did, and you're actively proving my point by hating it. "I hate it, so contrived, get out of my Scions :(".

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That doesn't make any sense. You said, "People will hate new characters by default because they are NOT the Scions we've grown to love for 10 years." I am saying I do not feel that is true for me, because there are several new characters both major and minor who we actively fight serious, but maybe not world ending, threats with that have resonated deeper without really needing to rely on previous plot details. Beastmaster lore builds on Garlemald, but is distinctly separated with one of their faction joining you in Zadnor. The cardinals build off of the Warriors of Darkness, but are woven into the more personal narrative of those specific lore quests, usually by a parallel or an irony of sorts, that section does double work, because it needs to elaborate on the original WoD team, and the new burgeoning team on the 1st. Notice how I did not say popular for anyone, I said that I liked them, I'm not speaking for anyone else.

What I am actually saying is that, in line with what the rest of these paragraphs say, is that there are several NEWLY introduced characters who I feel have been beneficial to the narrative, and I do not throw a fit when they leave. When Y'shtola got merked in SB and was out for the ENTIRE expansion, that was fine, I didn't lose my mind. When Tataru stopped being involved in ShB, because rationally she couldn't be, I didn't complain about it, because it made sense. Lyse being a big part of post-HW, only to not really be involved in things past Ghimlyt Dark next expansion, totally ok for me. Paplymo dies via self-sacrifice, and doesn't get brought back! That's something that probably won't happen again.

That's my primary stance against your statements. Scions can and have taken backseats. And nothing awful happened, there were no riots. I don't even hate Zero as a character, there's simply not enough even there for me to have super strong feelings about, and while I'm not a fan how other characters storylines were jerryrigged to hers, it feels unnatural, but like most things nowadays, I feel mostly nothing. Why waste my time hating fictional characters when I can hate "real" people on the official forums? (This is a joke)

And to be honest, G'raha was a side content character who became a main character. Estinien, also a side character in a job quest, becomes a main character. Cid was a main character who is now a side character. It's honestly pretty fluid over the entire roster, anyone has potential to become a main character for a storyline they want to tell or the content they come from, assuming it doesn't have a litany of prerequisites, it doesn't keep most from being off the roster in a practical fashion. And just because their sidequests doesn't make them any less canon or debatably relevant. Bahamut is side-content technically, and they bring him up like every other patch. CT, Alexander and Omega are all side-content, but are canonized in that things like Shadowbringers itlself, or the Omicrons don't exist without your aforementioned buildup happening in non-required content. This is part of keeping cohesive world building, which is why when Zero comes along and multiple plotlines that were adjacent to the MSQ were ignored (note: not retconned), when that was not what had happened with other side content-turned-MSQ relevant, it felt so awkward to me.

If I'm filler character in patch content, maybe someone else should've killed Nidhogg, Tsukuyomi, Themis (twice) then, lmao. Scions certainly weren't there to help me kill any of those.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

I can't help but think of Marvel, and how grand it's been going for them after retiring the popular original team they built their universe around while hoping their fans would be interested in an all new cast. Or when Paramount retired the Star Trek: The Next Generation crew and provided us with the cast of Voyager to compensate.

Where's my sarcasm emoji..

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Wouldn't the argument here be more along the lines of them keeping the original crew and not having the next generation at all?

Honestly it should just be Krile, Graha and Estinien. Everyone else should have stayed in Eorzea. A brief introduction to those 3 characters in the beginning of Dawntrail and go into the expansion. That way it sets up a true new player experience from this expansion forward.

I wouldnt have a problem with the scions if the devs didnt go through all that work and story building to disband them.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Wouldn't the argument here be more along the lines of them keeping the original crew and not having the next generation at all?

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That's exactly what the argument he is making is. Hence he even mentioned he was being sarcastic.

Here is the thing though, the incoming cast has to be more mature and relatable than the current scions. People generally don't like a bunch of new kids taking over with a bunch of naive and idealistic tendencies. There's good and noble plotlines that are more realistic, and then there's happily ever after nothing bad ever happens to the main cast cringe. I would venture to say we are more in the latter camp as of now.

I would take any plotline at this point over being the bodyguard of two teens teaching nations to be good again and getting involved in politics. What's worse, is said political leaders taking them seriously. I mean, the game had Alphinaud running around with a private army early in this game, and fortunately it turned out bad, because if the crystal braves had been successful, I do think I would've lost all interest in the plot going forward. But that aside, we have liberated Ishgard, Ala Mhigo, restored Doma, united all the city states with the beast tribes, dethroned everyone we didn't like, opened up Sharlayan, saved the universe, taught the garleans to be nice and now we're going to another continent with the same people to presumably go tell them how to live their lives.

Part of me would prefer a plot where we go to a place and not stage a coup d'etat to install a new regime or change the style of leadership. I would love to just visit a foreign place where we don't get deeply involved in the political structure and our adventure happens without us interrupting the form of governance in the location.

Come to think of it. How many leaders of a city/nation have we murdered?

There's the pope for HW, the garlean govt in doma for SB, Vauthry in the first for SHB, Garlemald's leadership for EW

Like, everywhere we go a governments head will roll at this point.

Actually, in the trailer for Dawntrail it sure looks like we're in the process of beheading another. But I will reserve my judgment until we know for sure. We are literally installing a new world order.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

That's exactly what the argument he is making is. Hence he even mentioned he was being sarcastic.

Here is the thing though, the incoming cast has to be more mature and relatable than the current scions. People generally don't like a bunch of new kids taking over with a bunch of naive and idealistic tendencies. There's good and noble plotlines that are more realistic, and then there's happily ever after nothing bad ever happens to the main cast cringe. I would venture to say we are more in the latter camp as of now.

I would take any plotline at this point over being the bodyguard of two teens teaching nations to be good again and getting involved in politics. What's worse, is said political leaders taking them seriously. I mean, the game had Alphinaud running around with a private army early in this game, and fortunately it turned out bad, because if the crystal braves had been successful, I do think I would've lost all interest in the plot going forward. But that aside, we have liberated Ishgard, Ala Mhigo, restored Doma, united all the city states with the beast tribes, dethroned everyone we didn't like, opened up Sharlayan, saved the universe, taught the garleans to be nice and now we're going to another continent with the same people to presumably go tell them how to live their lives.

Part of me would prefer a plot where we go to a place and not stage a coup d'etat to install a new regime or change the style of leadership. I would love to just visit a foreign place where we don't get deeply involved in the political structure and our adventure happens without us interrupting the form of governance in the location.

Come to think of it. How many leaders of a city/nation have we murdered?

There's the pope for HW, the garlean govt in doma for SB, Vauthry in the first for SHB, Garlemald's leadership for EW

Like, everywhere we go a governments head will roll at this point.

Actually, in the trailer for Dawntrail it sure looks like we're in the process of beheading another. But I will reserve my judgment until we know for sure. We are literally installing a new world order.

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I do wonder how they will try to sell this as something other than Scions visiting a foreign land they know nothing of and imposing their own ideals on them while installing leadership they want.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

That doesn't make any sense. You said, "People will hate new characters by default because they are NOT the Scions we've grown to love for 10 years"

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small edit: Actually I said this:

"This is another one of those things where players say they want something but they don't imo. Zero is the perfect evidence. "Zero is just an x,y, z archetype blah blah blah". Given the time span of any Scion (this means IF WE KNEW THEM FOR A FEW HOURS) you could say the same thing about them. XIV's vocal fans tend to have knee jerk reactions to everything (liike YOU do with Zero) which makes new things and/or creative things really hard to implement unless they are otherwise familiar/extremely safe (like a Fall Guys collab). Eureka and Bozja became trendy later in their life cycles because as Yoshi P himself noticed, the initial reactions were "ugh". XIV's vocal fans are like cranky old cats that need extremely delicate consideration when introducing new things."

And you haven't disproven this. All you are proving is that when characters take breaks, it's ok. That isn't relevant at all. You've argued that people could easily become Scions based on a Minfilia ghost and a side quest character. Who you should be mentioning are people who were pretty much new and joined-- the closest qualifiers being Estinien and Graha. Male, attractive, sassy, part of MSQ for a whole expansion and a half before joining. What a coincidence. And I'm being extremely generous with the timing because with Estinien it's much longer technically.

Maybe if Zero actually had the time and space, she'd hit the same status as them, instead of having an MSQ tier story stuffed into 3 hours of storytelling. We just don't know. Also Zero has taken a "BREAK" so shouldn't we be waiting to see more of her before really assessing since that what we did with Ryne according to you? Or does that not work bc you don't like Zero lmao.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Given reaction to Zero its good this is not the direction they are going

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Zero was simply a bad character. A a stick in the mud, with a plot ability.

SE can do better than that.

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Originally Posted by Troxbark

Zero was simply a bad character. A a stick in the mud, with a plot ability.

SE can do better than that.

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She was not noteworthy because of so, she was made to move the basis of a story that they left on hiatus that apparently has no relation with the main plot (the thirteenth) [at least not at the time I am writing this]. Rather than being, they made a reason for the thirteenth to be redeemed in her. Not that that's a bad thing (that can be a good thing), but they made her in the image of the Scions, a device to stir the plot, a problem child if you will (you get what you expect). No plot twist...lots of rising action with no exceptional climax. In that briefness that was her story, they could have fleshed her out making her act independently from us, especially given the story to begin with (trying to write as spoiler-free as possibly), then having us see her thoughts behind the scenes, again no, she tags along contributing to "How much can we fit this character in the story". I mean, I understand people like that storytelling, but it's reused too much at this point (Even the original FF4 has more of a wow factor, even though it does come out of nowhere).

Note: She's not bad but she's not great, she falls under the same level of how I feel about the Scions because I can see the same light they use for them being used for her as well, a shame really. The story imo needs a spicy villain character, one that you don't expect to be a villain because they've been with us for so long but have been doing their own thing based on how they feel personally. I think that would make for a great story and a great character because that character would no longer be flat and would no longer be acting as a problem child solely because they are the problem.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

And you haven't disproven this. All you are proving is that when characters take breaks, it's ok. That isn't relevant at all. You've argued that people could easily become Scions based on a Minfilia ghost and a side quest character. Who you should be mentioning are people who were pretty much new and joined-- the closest qualifiers being Estinien and Graha. Male, attractive, sassy, part of MSQ for a whole expansion and a half before joining. What a coincidence. And I'm being extremely generous with the timing because with Estinien it's much longer technically.

Maybe if Zero actually had the time and space, she'd hit the same status as them, instead of having an MSQ tier story stuffed into 3 hours of storytelling. We just don't know.

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I don't know why you are saying that I want them to be Scions in particular. I'm not specifically harping on that point of uplifting the organization itself, I don't care about the organization itself, I care about new characters who are interesting. If I had a desire for "only scions can be allowed to hang out with me" why would I want characters who are decidedly not that, and why would I complement characters who could fill similar roles without necessarily being or even aware of Scions? Main Character does not equal a Scion, and a Scion can be a Minor character. Krile has as one of the latter, becoming a main, and Lyse as one of the former becoming a minor. That is fine. If anything, I dislike G'raha way more now that he is one, and to contrast, I grew on Vrtra, a non-scion, the more time I spent with him post-expansion, even if I found him pretty one-note in the patch quests. Maybe it's different because he's First Brood? I am generally ambivalent to the Scions, because I see them as one part of a larger cast, and I feel I have seen enough of them. I never even said it was easy to make compelling characters, I said continuing to use the SAME characters can be a bit limiting if they're being pigeon-holed, and I don't see what their physical characteristics have to do with that opinion. If you're even looking for a organization bias for my perspective, it'd probably be what's left of the original Students of Baldesion minus G'raha, the Ironworks, or the Crystalline Mean characters who I hold a fondness for.

Zero wasn't given the time and the space she needed, this I can agree with. There are a lot of things that could have been done, weren't and now we're talking about the reality of the aftermath of her inclusion in the scope, of which, I don't think she was given nearly enough material or substance, hence the filler comment, I imagine. Ironically, despite being MSQ, there just wasn't a lot of substance to her quest for me, and the changes it made to current storylines might be clouding my judgement for any alternatives, because all I think is "Why did you do it like this?" The "void" expansion I feel would've been a way better idea. It's not Zero who I dislike, it's how she was used. If MSQ is so important to people, over the side-content the plotline this arc originated from, there should have been more time dedicated to making a more seamless transition over having a lot of FFIV referential content.

Is what you're talking about
Situation A: If you are in the Warrior of Light's party, you are a scion, whether official or honorary.
or
Situation B: The Scions themselves are an organization that operates separately from the WoL that share considerable, but not complete overlap.

I don't think main characters need to ascribe themselves as a Scion or be on the path to become one. I'd be fine it's just a ship passing in the night situation, we team up for this plotline, and go our separate ways afterwards like it is for a lot of other characters, maybe with a cameo here or there.

Like, I'm trying really hard here to explain my perspective in good faith. I'm not saying throw Y'shtola away, Zero is awful, this entire post MSQ is a complete failure, make all my favorite characters Scions and have a rotating roster for the rest of the game's life, I just want the New World expansion to have primarily New World characters with New World problems.

EDIT: No, there's a distinct difference between Ryne/Zero inclusions and that's screentime and I suppose, intent. Ryne has the backing of previous plot threads, and expands on them within the expansion she is introduced. She pretty much pays off at the Ahm Araeng revisit, and again in dedicated Eden raid series (which I also think maybe should have been referenced in this plotline due to E2, but that's a different conversation.) Zero is not introduced until post MSQ, in an enviroment we are already pretty familiar with due to World Of Darkness and testimonies from the other void characters, that the only thing Zero really brings to the table is history of the 13th, which is something that could have come from the two of our already established characters for that setting, and the current status of the 13th, of which I thought was the most interesting thing she brought to the table. You could say "You're being too hard on a unfinished character" and to that I'll respond "Why was her arc not given a satisfying conclusion then?" Saying "Yeah, we can bring back the world we lost" with Golbez is fine, but it doesn't mesh with the already established void storyline, because those characters simply don't interact, a missed opportunity. Bringing it back to Ryne, when you finish Eden, Shadowkeeper, the MSQ, and Warring Triad, all of those associated characters are now woven together. Zero is NOTICEABLY absent. And that brings in what I feel is a narrative dissonance, because I believe her character would be greatly strengthened by interactions and conversations with that segment of the cast. Ryne stuff took old parts, made something new out of it in a new setting. Zero's plotline is almost usurping a developing plotline in an old setting, and coopting it, not her fault, but that's what happened. That's a distinct difference. No one gets side-lined in Ryne's personal story in the over-arching world cohesion of FFXIV, Zero's actively does so old ground can be retread.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

At one point earlier I remember Yoshida saying the adventure after EW was gonna be only Thancred and Krile(this could have been a translation error as they're sadly very common). Them adding the rest on later just feels like a slap to the face.

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They said that Thancred and Krile would be more prominent, but nothing about them being the only ones around.

Zero is just a poor man's Vampire Hunter D.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I definitely disagree and it's hard for me to understand people who want the Scions, who are basically the main characters of the story and the game at this point, to go away. Especially people who want ALL of them to go away.

In the places I hang out the scions are immensely popular. They are introducing new characters in Dawntrail though, and it sounds like they are trying to let us see the scions from different angles with the whole "rivalry" plot.

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I agree with this. I want new characters in the expansions that are relevant to the setting and story, but I don't want the established cast to vanish into the ether. In each new expansion, we've had at least some of the Scions with us playing a vital role. I'm in favor of that continuing. I want to see the characters I've grown to love continue to interact with my character in the new stories to come.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what SE has been providing in at least the last two expansions: new characters relevant to the setting and story, some more memorable than others. All without abandoning everyone we've known in the past ten years. I personally enjoyed Erenville's walk on, as well as Varshahn. I've seen at least one new character in the announcements of Dawntrail that looks to be interesting, as well as a number of newer and older in-story friends.

I like the Scions, and I'd rather stick with characters I like than new ones it will take years to warm up to. Ryne? Fordola? Zero? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I like the Scions, and I'd rather stick with characters I like than new ones it will take years to warm up to. Ryne? Fordola? Zero? No thanks.

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I would rather have them along with erenville and the new hrothgar female over uwu cat boy and the other scions. I feel the scions arcs have ended as far back as 5.3.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

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As just one example of how this could work, let's examine Y'shtola. The writers have already met us halfway by giving her a new goal to chase: she wants to return to The First. Now, to make this more interesting we could introduce some urgency to her search. We already know that time works differently between shards. Maybe remind the writers and have Y'shtola genuinely distressed at the prospect of Runar growing old without her or something. Urgency leads calm and sensible people to do desperate things in order to get what they want. So maybe now, at the height of desperation, Y'shtola discovers a method of returning to The First, but it involves doing something uncharacteristically self centered/malicious on her part. So now she has to struggle with, like, "do I stay true to myself and search for another way, or do I put my own desires first even if it harms others?" and to me that sort of dilemma is way more interesting than whatever the hell she does now.
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I love this. Can you propose this story to SE?

We can even have a story of fighting Y’shtola in a trial to try to stop her from going over the line.

The Scions are my family. 1 year, 10 years, 50 years....

Don't bleep with my family.

Annoying at times, sure, but they are still my damn family.

Complaining about story arcs is bull imo. There is always room for a new adventure. Anyone that can tell the story of their life in 10 years had a pretty damn boring life.

I dont mind bringing new people into my family, but dont force an entire new family on me. If you want to do that, just release FF17 with a brand new cast.

From the artwork, looks like they're phasing out Y'shtola and the twins and focusing on Thancred, Urianger and Krile while introducing new characters. G'raha and Estinien are recent scions so I don't mind having them for a while longer but looks like they're taking a backseat as well.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

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As far as I am aware, this thread is asking about the Scions. It mentions new characters but new characters would, I assume mean full time party members who are equivalent to Scions even if they are not called Scions. As such, characters like Ryne and even Jullus and anyone like them are not relevant. They're fantastic characters but they aren't held to the same screen time or scrutiny as a very very main character would. Ryne is like seeing a Scion at their best angle constantly rather than every angle, even meandering moments of lifestyle, as we get with a main character.

Main characters are also the face of the game. They're the ones who sell the main trailers. Ryne, Jullus and Co don't do that. Designing a character who will fit into that mould is challenging and risky not just for the narrative but also for literally selling the game. That's why they play it safe and give you the same shit over and over.

Also just a general thought regarding the OP but it isn't so much the Scions are boring as much as it is the team does not indulge them with any interesting arcs anymore. It's all just sass, sexual tension, twin politics, or graha telling you for the 57th time to take him on your next adventure. The one exception being the Garlemald segment of 6.0 which was quite satisfying for the Twins.

It's rather strange to me that people equate asking that the Scions take a backseat for a bit to attacking their close family and friends. From what we can see, only Krile and Thancred have any direct stake in Dawntrail, was it necessary to bring everyone else too? All the Scions being in Dawntrail is made even weirder by them stating after the "official disbanding" of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn that they should avoid all coming together for anything to keep up the pretense of the disbanding to the rest of the world, but suddenly it's fine for everyone to meet up and travel?

No one is asking for any of the Scions to die, just for some of them to take a backseat to make room for new characters, like how Y'shtola took a backseat for most of Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by AmorfaVex

The Scions are my family. 1 year, 10 years, 50 years....

Don't bleep with my family.

Annoying at times, sure, but they are still my damn family.

Complaining about story arcs is bull imo. There is always room for a new adventure. Anyone that can tell the story of their life in 10 years had a pretty damn boring life.

I dont mind bringing new people into my family, but dont force an entire new family on me. If you want to do that, just release FF17 with a brand new cast.

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Nothing can erase the history established between the WoL and the other Scions. This is a rather constricted view of the Scions and the WoL. It is also contradictory to Azem, and what their seat symbolizes among the grand scheme of the story. The Scions embarking on their own individual adventures away from the group doesn't sever the ties with each other, but it does limit the where, when, and why they go to any region around the world along with their growth. Y'shtola, Urianger, Thancred, and the Twins all had the most exponential amount of character growth when they were all separated on the first away from each other, and the WoL. This is irrefutable.

New members shouldn't be or feel forced. It should happen after a natural chemistry between characters takes place. This is why a character like Ryne and/or Jullus would be a welcome addition, while characters like Erenville feel totally forced. With the former we have bled together on the battlefield, and have had impactful emotional experiences with each other. Erenville? He showed to be intelligent enough to see through our frog glamour. Welcome aboard mate!

Several Scions have simply have had their character arcs concluded in regards to their conflicts. You could introduce a new conflict, but this takes away screen time from new characters. Hence why characters like Ryne and Jullus are punted out of the story entirely, or they make cameo appearances that leave us saddened when we have to part ways yet again.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

New members shouldn't be or feel forced. It should happen after a natural chemistry between characters takes place. This is why a character like Ryne and/or Jullus would be a welcome addition, while characters like Erenville feel totally forced. With the former we have bled together on the battlefield, and have had impactful emotional experiences with each other. Erenville? He showed to be intelligent enough to see through our frog glamour. Welcome aboard mate!

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Yeah and think about that Hrothgal, she didn't even do anything and yet she appears alongside the other characters in the Dawntrail trailer and even smiles (!) as if she was our best friend?!

Nothing so far suggests that Erenville and her are being treated as anything but acquaintances. They seem sympathetic enough, sure but just because they are there and friendly doesn't mean the game "forces" some sort of mutual friendship that hasn't even been established yet.

I like the scions personally, I hope to see them have many more character arcs while also introducing more characters slowly. I don't see any reason to phase them out completely, they're basically the main cast of XIV and I've enjoyed seeing how they have developed over the last 10+ years.

They always add new characters each expansion to varying degrees that we sometimes continue to interact with every now and then and it makes it a big deal when characters join the cast that we have with the scions. It wouldn't feel very organic if we just dropped the scions and then introduced some new group of characters that were just the Scions lite meant to take their place.

I support adding more characters to our ever growing group of friends and would've liked to see a character like Zenos somehow make it in there or Emmet Selch. However I don't support killing the scions just for the sake of replacing them with a lesser version just for the sake of being different.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

That doesn't change that Zero was poorly written? Moonbryda was around for like 1 patch and is more memorable then Zero?

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It's funny you say that. I've gone through her story on 7-8 characters and each time I wonder how she made an impact on some people to the way that she did. She was a nice character, but not all that memorable.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Wouldn't the argument here be more along the lines of them keeping the original crew and not having the next generation at all?

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I figured someone was going to ask that, but (in my mind) no.. I did not reference the original crew because the original series ended 18 years before The Next Generation.

Comparing Paramount's quick shift from TNG to DS9 and Voyager (and the cast changes happening at Marvel over the last few years) feel much more comparable to having the Scions around in one expansion and then suddenly replacing them all with a new cast for the next expansion. It's too jarring, and people who enjoy the Scions (or the cast of TNG, or the original Avengers cast) didn't get 18 years to get over the idea that they're favorite characters have been phased out.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Nothing so far suggests that Erenville and her are being treated as anything but acquaintances. They seem sympathetic enough, sure but just because they are there and friendly doesn't mean the game "forces" some sort of mutual friendship that hasn't even been established yet.

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Except the fact that this is what the writers have done with nearly every character who is not a Scion, correct? And the ironic thing about this is that whether the acquaintance is friendly or abrasive towards the WoL and their entourage, it's the Scions that force the friendship onto them. I rather enjoyed it when Gaia had a kind of "get bent" attitude. It was refreshing.

My main point however, is that there are actually fewer interactions that do not feel forced and give a sense that the friendship feels natural, and it's these characters that I wish the writers would flesh out a bit more. Ryne is a bit of an exception because she quite literally got an entire expansion, and lives on the First. But characters like Jullus, Unukalhai, and even Fran are bound to the Source and could easily have additional screen time in the MSQ, but they just kind of kick them to the curb and introduce more side characters who will inevitably also be kicked to the curb just when emotional attachments set in.

I would have liked to start fresh as well but I think that, because of the trust system, a whole new group would mean changing all the NPCs that can join you in a story dungeon...
Probably easier for them to keep the Scions at this point and just add a couple of extra characters.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

[...] From what we can see, only Krile and Thancred have any direct stake in Dawntrail, was it necessary to bring everyone else too? All the Scions being in Dawntrail is made even weirder by them stating after the "official disbanding" of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn that they should avoid all coming together for anything to keep up the pretense of the disbanding to the rest of the world, but suddenly it's fine for everyone to meet up and travel?

[...]

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We already know there's going to be some (surface) tension in regards to the succession.
What if that division is just a front and the point is to show the world that the group formerly known as the Scions of the Seventh Dawn stopped getting along and are done?

I'm obviously reaching here but I'd prefer if they had some sort of plan other than "well we didn't do any official Scions business for a week, back to business as usual guys, they'll never figure us out now"

I thought they made it clear that they disband on paper?

Honestly,

I wouldn't be surprised if they meant done with them in the extent of done with them as a collective, and acting as such, e.g., not being referred to as Scions of the Seventh Dawn, rather than being done with the actual characters themselves.

Personally, I would like a new cast though I think.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

From the artwork, looks like they're phasing out Y'shtola and the twins and focusing on Thancred, Urianger and Krile while introducing new characters. G'raha and Estinien are recent scions so I don't mind having them for a while longer but looks like they're taking a backseat as well.

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To me that's the road FFXIV should take. Every new expansion, we get a few of the old character mixed with new ones, like HW and SB did. And we rotate between the old ones each expansion. Some hints seem to go that way for a DT (that's what they implied with their "can't go together on adventure" and with the artwork recently), but the trailer was basically "Look, they are ALL there".

If you look at the DT poster theres a severe lack of major Scions present and the fact that Yshtola and the twins and even Graha and Estenien are missing from it, may mean that theyll have a minor role. It seems only Krile, (whom weve yet to adventure with) Thancred and Urianger will be the only major relevant Scions in DT and Im all here for that.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I thought we were done with them. Here is the thing, one of the reasons I'm less excited about dawntrail is because I was seriously under the impression that they were going to phase out the scions and introduce a new cast. It was the perfect opportunity to do so. For example, the scions disband and go about their desires and they can even make the occasional cameo.

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I agree it seemed like they were going to do it and then they just didn't.

What is clear to me now, and everyone else, is they will never move away from them. The trailer shows very clearly that they view the scions the same way as The Simpsons or Scooby-Doo characters. They are gonna run with these characters for 20 years and beyond. So we're just gonna have to adjust our perspective of this tbh.

Although there is precedent for a company changing their mind about characters eventually. They did finally change the Pokemon characters after many, many years to freshen things up in the early 2000s and then again just recently.

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Like, is it just me or wouldn't the story be much more exciting if we took the trip to the new world with just Erenville and that hrothgal and the trailers showed mysterious new characters we will meet along the way? That would be so much better...

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I agree. The good news is that the poster does not include:
Alphinaud, Alisaie, G'raha, Y'shtola or Estinien.

It does include many new characters:
Female Hrothgar, Male Miqo'te, Erenville, a Female Hyur and two Mamool Ja.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

If you look at the DT poster theres a severe lack of major Scions present and the fact that Yshtola and the twins and even Graha and Estenien are missing from it, may mean that theyll have a minor role. It seems only Krile, (whom weve yet to adventure with) Thancred and Urianger will be the only major relevant Scions in DT and Im all here for that.

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Urianger is literally not doing anything in the trailer. Don't get your hopes up.

In fact, the second half of the trailer is extremely boring and basic when you don't let hype dictate what you're observing. Once Picto gets revealed especially it feels like they literally ran out of ideas. It scares me tbh

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I agree it seemed like they were going to do it and then they just didn't.

What is clear to me now, and everyone else, is they will never move away from them. The trailer shows very clearly that they view the scions the same way as The Simpsons or Scooby-Doo characters. They are gonna run with these characters for 20 years and beyond. So we're just gonna have to adjust our perspective of this tbh.

Although there is precedent for a company changing their mind about characters eventually. They did finally change the Pokemon characters after many, many years to freshen things up in the early 2000s and then again just recently.

I agree. The good news is that the poster does not include:
Alphinaud, Alisaie, G'raha, Y'shtola or Estinien.

It does include many new characters:
Female Hrothgar, Male Miqo'te, Erenville, a Female Hyur and two Mamool Ja.

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Yeah at least there's hope. Most of the annoying members aren't in the poster thank goodness. The game has a good story but I think it rides on its themes and villains, not its main cast. For example the main cast of FFXVI was much, much more likeable in every regard and I wouldn't mind having those for 20 years... But the scions are mostly just there and don't give any lasting impressions beyond their main gimmick or for some people their looks.