7.0 Tank Wishlist

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

We already have War for slow gameplay.

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Nobody is talking about slow gameplay, it's about impact and feedback on your attacks. Best example would be Bloodspiller, it's a 500 potency hit but feels incredibly floaty and gives little visual or sound feedback on how much damage it's actually doing.
Granted DrK doesn't actually have a lot of big hitters, just a lot of smaller ones but the same applies to a lot of it's abilities which are just a bunch of quick particle slices that do not make the job feel like you're swinging around a giant sword.

The opposite is true for Fellcleave which has great visual and sound feedback despite being pretty mediocre nowadays.
Or basically anything in Gunbreaker's kit.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I guess I'm a bit at odds with how much Warrior heals In AOE, I think personally that should be changed to only 400 healing regardless of enemy count, Just to make it so you actually have to heal a warrior, The other thing I dislike is how Warrior is the Party healer tank...? That's something that just doesn't really fit the design I much rather Warrior be the Big Hp (passive above average tank hp would be cool), self sustaining tank that intimidates the enemy and mitigates their damage sort of support deal.

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If they ever actually wanted to add interesting and varied ways in how tanks mitigate damage I would want warrior to have a damage stagger mechanic instead of selfheal (since not noticing the damage you're taking fits a berserker quite well imo). Give it above average HP (like it did before ShB) and then allow it to convert damage taken into damage over time instead, with other cooldowns reducing said DoT.

Could it cause balance issues? Hard to say, eating a buster that does 400+% of your max HP is still going to kill you, it will just take a second or two.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Nobody is talking about slow gameplay, it's about impact and feedback on your attacks. Best example would be Bloodspiller, it's a 500 potency hit but feels incredibly floaty and gives little visual or sound feedback on how much damage it's actually doing.
Granted DrK doesn't actually have a lot of big hitters, just a lot of smaller ones but the same applies to a lot of it's abilities which are just a bunch of quick particle slices that do not make the job feel like you're swinging around a giant sword.

The opposite is true for Fellcleave which has great visual and sound feedback despite being pretty mediocre nowadays.
Or basically anything in Gunbreaker's kit.

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I think DRK's visuals just feel outdated and weird to me, it feels slow and clunky but you also don't really feel the weight of the sword, as much as I don't like warrior I feel like the fellcleave animation generally feels awesome.

GNB, Feels like the better fast paced tank to me, I can't really describe it that well it just feels way more fluid and less spammy, DRK also is the "dark magic" tank but barely feels like it has anything to do with magic outside having a Pet and its AOE, I wouldn't even call DRK's gameplay fast, it's fast in bursts then it follows a boring 1, 2, 3 sometimes blood spiller for the majority of the gameplay while GNB Keeps consistent fast paced throughout the fight

Personally I'd want a rework fitting of "Dark Knight" I'd want animations that fit, the use of dark magic, a wild idea but maybe a fast swinging sword segment with a haste buff (giving the feeling that you're using magic to enhance yourself able to use your sword more quickly), Slower normal animations that reflect on holding a heavy sword.

Honestly all tanks feel slow to me, GNB just feels fast in comparison which is fine, The issue is more that tanks don't really have anything complicated like lacking different combo paths, unqiue different reasons to spend gauge, ect.

I'd rather not see DRK reworked for the sake of making its animations feel weightier, the only reason it works for WAR is because its a GCD centric job with much fewer and slower inputs, so you're going to frequently be seeing that fell cleave animation play out for 2 seconds. Dark Knights animations aren't bad honestly, but you're never going to see much of them due to how busy the job is with double weaving, whether that be its busy mitigation or boatloads of ogcds.

But this has always been the case with DRK. Its always been busy like this with lots to weave, I'd rather not see a rework to push it even further into WAR clone for the sake of animation clarity, especially because that could only be achieved by removing what little of the jobs identity is left.

I think they'd be better served giving DRK GCD animations that look more natural being interrupted. Bloodspiller is particularly bad because all you see of its animation is your character holding the sword above their head with both hands, and nothing else. You don't even see the swing. Its standard 123 isn't that much better. Souleater will cut off as soon as your characters starts jumping, so if you use edge after that you snap right back to the ground, its pretty jarring. On the oGCD side things are a little better, Edge/flood and Shadowbringer feel like they were made with the idea in mind that they had to be fast for weavings, but Carve and spit is a weird one where you can very easily not see the full animation.

GNB had the benefit of them knowing what they wanted the job to do when the animated it so things flow better. It be nice if they could do the same for Dark Knight
Not that I think they'd ever go back and reanimated old jobs, its basically unprecendented and this game LOVES its formula.

I also forgot.
I'd like Shirk and Taunt to be slightly buffed.

Taunt should passively generate enmity towards you for a few seconds.
Shirk should redirect generated enmity towards your target for a few seconds.

I just want to be able to put on my tank stance and shirking pre-pull without having to think about putting tank stance on, taunting and putting mitigation on while doing a gunbreaker opener.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Paladin:

• My main desired improvement for Paladin is that it simply has too much button bloat, so consolidating some buttons would really help me fit everything comfortably within my crosshotbars. I'm already using a ton of macros and it's still bursting at the seams. Consolidating the 1-2-3 and 1-2 combo into a single button each would be enough to grant some much-needed space, provided that new moves don't eat that space up. So in that vein, please also get rid of a move for every new move that gets added!
• In a similar vein, Requiescat and Fight or Flight should be fused into a single move, since you're always going to want to cast them at the same time. This would open up some button space and reduce some needlessly clunky weaving.
• Also, yeah, y'all gotta nerf our healing.

Dark Knight:

• I feel like Dark Knight has been left behind mechanically. Paladin has this combo that builds into magical attacks and then periodically a bunch of magic swords, while also having a few abilities focused on defending party members. DRK kind of feels like Paladin if they took that stuff away and then replaced it with nothing. The Blackest Night is certainly some of the funnest mitigation in the game, but it's late to the party at level 70, and nothing else DRK gets feels like it has the impact or oomph of Paladin's spells or Warrior's Fell Cleaves. I don't mind that Dark Knight is mechanically simple, as I think it's good that some classes are simpler/easier than others, but I do wish that it felt like its kit brought more to the table, either by feeling cool to use or by providing utility that gave the class a bit more identity compared to the other tanks.

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Drk is not allowed to have an identity because any time it does, war mains want to get our tools too and everyone else gets them by proxy.
Once upon a time, Drk used to be the debuffer tank but then every tank apparently needed reprisal and it's identity got stripped.
Then, they made Drk the leech tank, but Warrior apparently needed to steal that identity.
Then, they made Drk the best at soaking tank busters with TBN and a magic mit, but then they powercreeped it by buffing every other short tank cd because streamers got mad.
Then, they made Drk the dps tank, but once again, the streamers got mad once again.

This is becoming a pattern. ''Hoh no we need to rework Drk to give it an identity'' And when it does, it needs to be streamlined into irrelevancy.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Drk is not allowed to have an identity because any time it does, war mains want to get our tools too and everyone else gets them by proxy.
Once upon a time, Drk used to be the debuffer tank but then every tank apparently needed reprisal and it's identity got stripped.
Then, they made Drk the leech tank, but Warrior apparently needed to steal that identity.
Then, they made Drk the best at soaking tank busters with TBN and a magic mit, but then they powercreeped it by buffing every other short tank cd because streamers got mad.
Then, they made Drk the dps tank, but once again, the streamers got mad once again.

This is becoming a pattern. ''Hoh no we need to rework Drk to give it an identity'' And when it does, it needs to be streamlined into irrelevancy.

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The Idea should be to also rework other tanks a bit no?

Dark Knights Issues also aren't just lack of identity it's current rotation is "faster warrior without a combo path", PLD identity is spam atonement and magic, Warrior is the slow tank, Even GNB lacks any complexity outside weaving.

I don't think it's just dark Knight which is inherently flawed, it's actually tanks as a whole the current design has failed, somehow they remove tank stances but make the dps rotations Still boring and more easier, when removing such things should leave room to at least make their DPS rotations more fun and intresting from one another, The defensive abilities offer nothing Unique or interesting, the Idea is we should get away from that design as a whole, I think Dark Knight is just the most prime example of peoples frustrations with tanking because It's such a cool concept that's had pretty much everything took away from it.

I'm Not happy with PLD in it's current form, Not with DRK, GNB is "acceptable" but even then I'd like it to feel different from other tanks, Warrior obviously is broken in a lot of content (even if that's "casual content") it's also somehow one of the best defensively, with the shortest invul & the best GROUP and self healing.

Well EW to DT is the first time in this game's history where they cant pad out tank content by stripping something from DRK and putting it on all the tanks. So they're probably going to have to pick WAR or PLD for that this time, unless they really want to hand out Oblation or Enhanced Unmend.

Imagine if Equilibrium gets removed from WAR and gets turned into a Role Action as a Tank version of Second Wind. That would cause some seething.

But in all honesty I think every tank is in a bad spot identity wise.
Despite WAR's tendancy to cannibalize other tank's traits and abilities it really hasn't mechanically changed at all since Stormblood, and arguably only gets easier every patch. Making odd design decisions like "every tank HAS to have their own version of another tank's skill" isn't really helping things. I don't think the lv 82 short tank mits were a healthy idea, and I think its further homogenized tank mitigation except Dark Knight's, who has the niche benefits of shorter CDs on TBN, Oblation and Dark Mind. So I'm guessing thats changing in DT.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Well EW to DT is the first time in this game's history where they cant pad out tank content by stripping something from DRK and putting it on all the tanks. So they're probably going to have to pick WAR or PLD for that this time, unless they really want to hand out Oblation or Enhanced Unmend.

Imagine if Equilibrium gets removed from WAR and gets turned into a Role Action as a Tank version of Second Wind. That would cause some seething.

But in all honesty I think every tank is in a bad spot identity wise.
Despite WAR's tendancy to cannibalize other tank's traits and abilities it really hasn't mechanically changed at all since Stormblood, and arguably only gets easier every patch. Making odd design decisions like "every tank HAS to have their own version of another tank's skill" isn't really helping things. I don't think the lv 82 short tank mits were a healthy idea, and I think its further homogenized tank mitigation except Dark Knight's, who has the niche benefits of shorter CDs on TBN, Oblation and Dark Mind. So I'm guessing thats changing in DT.

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PLD lost Rampart and it became a Role action.. Plus Convalescence and baked it into WAR. So I dunno.

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Originally Posted by rawker

PLD lost Rampart and it became a Role action.. Plus Convalescence and baked it into WAR. So I dunno.

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Good point really, considering PLD was the "og" mitigation tank, Obviously other tanks should had mitigation, but PLD was originally designed as the strongest mitigation tank for a while... at least non magic which granted isn't a good identity.

I feel like the core of the issue isn't just "warrior" but it's the fact every tank has been made similar, even if that's a fault of warrior or not, it needs changing for the better, or at least give tanks unique rotations that aren't all very simple 1, 2, 3 "spam X button"

I don't really want to blame any tank here, I certainly have issues with Warriors design, but I think all tanks could benefit from playing different and mitigating in different ways.

Since all of the classes are so homogenized at this point I wouldn't mind seeing something like the old multi-classing system specifically for tank mitigation options. If you have both Warrior and Dark Knight leveled for example, then you could choose to use either Bloodwhetting or The Blackest Knight, with a linked cooldown so you have to choose one or the other. Bloodwhetting being much better suited for wall to wall pulling, while TBN is much better suited for tank busters. The main jobs would keep the extra utility like WAR being able to choose between Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash, DRK getting the free ability out of a broken shield, etc... so there is a very slight reward for matching the job that mitigation comes from.

This will never happen, but it would fix some issues like DRK feeling pretty bad in dungeons compared to WAR lol. It would also reward those leveling multiple jobs in the form of comfort tools instead of a direct advantage.

I'd like if each tank (aside from GNB, can't comment as I don't touch it) had more interesting gimmicks and mechanics attached to their core job mechanic, which in this case I suppose would be the gauges and spenders. Not random one-off, uninteresting gimmicks or mechanics either, but things woven into their overall kit. At this point, across all jobs, I'm pretty sick of the abundance of "press for effect" abilities; cooldowns you press that do one single uninteresting thing that has zero interaction with anything else at your disposal outside of it's initial effect. Press this, get 10% damage reduction. Press this, get gauge equaling one spender. Press this, 60s cd, flat potency attack. Etc.. Kind of sick of that. I just think it's so boring.

I get that power creep is a very real issue when it comes to just stacking effects, but I'm not asking for more effects on more abilities. I want fun job mechanics again, things that thematically fit each tanks identity and set them apart from one another mechanically. Obviously there's going to be some differing views on what constitutes job identity at this point, but I just wish the team would get creative with it. I guess this might have been the case in the past, I'm not sure. I didn't really swap around much in HW, and only started to branch out near the end of SB.

I know there's this whole thing against raising the skill floor, but interesting mechanics can still be added to each job without doing that. I know I'm not being very specific with what I want here, and that's because I know what constitutes interesting job mechanics or depth tends to be subjective, but it's just frustrating to not see much of anything unique dividing jobs outside of APM differences.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Despite WAR's tendancy to cannibalize other tank's traits and abilities it really hasn't mechanically changed at all since Stormblood, and arguably only gets easier every patch.

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It doesn't just get easier every expansion it also gets blander.

Even after the big "dumbing down" that was the 4.2 rework WAR still had things to manage outside of just hitting the hurr durr Fell Cleave button. Carefully choosing when to spend gauge to maximize your crit bonus, manipulating your GCD with Onslaught (which was roughly the same potency per gauge as Fell Cleave), working around your 1 stack Infuriate and IR's cooldown reduction of it, keeping your 30 second Eye of the Storm buff up which you couldn't refresh during the 10 second IR window.
Technically all small annoyances that did however add some depth to the job nonetheless, all removed in the name of convenience.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Good point really, considering PLD was the "og" mitigation tank, Obviously other tanks should had mitigation, but PLD was originally designed as the strongest mitigation tank for a while... at least non magic which granted isn't a good identity.

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Even in Stormblood when it was able to block magic it was technically still the strongest mitigation tank. 40% DR on Sentinel, 20% DR on Cover, uncapped block strength and rate leading to potentially 30-something % DR on blocked attacks and of course Hallowed Ground. The downside was that they all came with long cooldowns but I remember that while I was sweating in O10S on Warrior it felt like Midgardsormr was basically tickling me on Paladin, just Cover and Shelltron made a joke out of his buster.

nothing too crazy but here would be what I want:

DRK:
- remove 1 Shadowbringer stack, make the Shadowbringer about 750-850 potency but only on a strict 60 sec cooldown
- make AoE combo and unmend into weaponskills rather than spells so they are not affected by spell speed or create a trait that makes spell speed scale from skill speed.

PLD:
- Upgrade Goring(Boring) blade into a cleave,
- Upgrade Circle of Scorn (nothing new, but its about time)
- rework Cover: bring back the innate 20% mitigation on it, make it a manual teather (akin to fairy teather),
- give a trait that makes PLD's magic GCD scale from skill Speed rather than Spell Speed, this allows PLD to run on a more flexable skill speed.

WAR:
- unmarry orogeny and upheaval, or replace both of them with an upheaval 2 which cleaves.
- new look combo enders
- (what we probs getting) a new inner chaos and chaotic cyclone and primal rend.

GNB:
- Unmarry the 2 cart cost for Double Down and make it either linked to No mercy usage or a flat GCD cooldown with 60 seconds as a base. (akin to Chain Saw and current Goring blade)
- return carts back to 2 cartages because of above change
- A continuation for Fated Circle and Double Down.
- increase the base damage mitigation on camouflage from 10% to 15% simply to increase the bottom end of possible mit from it due to how parries work in the game.

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

- give a trait that makes PLD's magic GCD scale from skill Speed rather than Spell Speed, this allows PLD to run on a more flexable skill speed.

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No , they need to merge skillspeed and spellspeed into one single stat, Haste. (Which already exists in the game)

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Originally Posted by Arohk

No , they need to merge skillspeed and spellspeed into one single stat, Haste. (Which already exists in the game)

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this would work too, given how few classes work with both

My first comment is that I really want oblation earlier than level 82. The second part I'd like done is just combining Oblation and Dark Mind so that we got 10% universal mit and 20% mit against magic that we can put on other targets. Also, can we just get a self heal on TBN so it is a combo shield and heal? It feels like every other tank has this in some form.

Also, how the flying hells am I supposed to use defense cooldowns with salted earth and Shadowbringer taking up 4 OGCD charges, plus having carve and split? I feel like I hit a burst phase and now I'm stuck deciding "am I going to do the damage I'm expecting and make the healer cry, or am I going to use defense cooldowns?" :P

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Also, how the flying hells am I supposed to use defense cooldowns with salted earth and Shadowbringer taking up 4 OGCD charges, plus having carve and split? I feel like I hit a burst phase and now I'm stuck deciding "am I going to do the damage I'm expecting and make the healer cry, or am I going to use defense cooldowns?" :P

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rookie mistake to use mitigation only when the boss is already casting a tankbuster,

I wouldn't be against merging Dark Mind and Oblation, but just merging them would be a net nerf to DRK's mitigation unless other things are done.

I honestly think almost all of DRK's mit problems could be solved if TBN guaranteed the Dark Arts stack when it expired. Right now it feels as frail as it does because TBN isn't spammable like HoC/HS/BW, combined with the no sustain, combined with Dark Mind and Missionary only being magic. Not saying all of these need to be solved, but some of them definitely should be.

Here's my wish list dear developers and fellow forum readers:

DRK: Mostly a complete rework... :(

- Quietus removed
- A new combo path after Syphon Strike that adds a heal over time and upgrades Souleater into a new ability that does a lot of damage. You alternate between this new combo and upgraded Souleater when outside of burst windows.
- Delirium grants 2 stacks of Delirium, each stack allowing Bloodspiller to combo into 2 new actions. A new combo that can be used twice in quick succession, actions which are part of this combo grants 15% Skill / spell speed.
- Living Shadow grants a RPR Enshroud like effect, increasing Darkside's damage bonus from 10% to 20% ( this would make sense on your HUD as well as you have a RED icon next to your "armor" )

GNB:
- Continuation on Double Down and Fated Circle.
- Combo action after Double Down with another Continuation
- Another GCD in the Gnashing Fang combo
- A button that resets the cooldown of Gnashing Fang and Double Down so you can use them again ( every 2 minutes, when you'd just use 3 bullets on Burst Strike... ), could be added to existing Bloodfest.

WAR:
- A combo action after every Fell Cleave.
- A gcd action that opens a wound on target, which last for some seconds, dealing damage to target compiles damage up to a maximum, then the gcd turns into a super heavy axe attack that obliterates the target for 1000 potency or something.
- Infuriate also adds a small damage over time effect to your next attack ( works on Inner Chaos / Chaotic Cyclone ). Damage over time effects do refresh and stack for more damage.
- Upheaval's cooldown is reduced by 6 seconds whenever using any beast gauge action.

PLD:

- Atonement combos into 2 new actions.
- Holy Spirit places a mark on target, which is detonated by Goring Blade or Royal Authority, dealing damage proportional to the attack that triggered it.
- Holly Circle places the same mark, triggered by Confiteor.
- Cover no longer has a gauge cost.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

GNB:
- Continuation on Double Down and Fated Circle.
- Combo action after Double Down with another Continuation
- Another GCD in the Gnashing Fang combo
- A button that resets the cooldown of Gnashing Fang and Double Down so you can use them again ( every 2 minutes, when you'd just use 3 bullets on Burst Strike... ), could be added to existing Bloodfest.

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I see some issues with those additions, even if we assume that they'll extend the duration of No Mercy so you can fit all of those skills inside the buff window in the first place.

-Even less weave slots for defensives
-Resetting Gnashing and Double Down to use them a second time during No Mercy means that their cooldown has now reset as well, leading to massive drift on those skills.
-Since GnB always has some drift on it's 1-2-3 combo you can potentially run into the issue where you enter your next burst phase on a finished combo and only 2 cartridges, which is even more clunky than the current forced 2-cart burst we have.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

PLD:

- Atonement combos into 2 new actions.
- Holy Spirit places a mark on target, which is detonated by Goring Blade or Royal Authority, dealing damage proportional to the attack that triggered it.
- Holly Circle places the same mark, triggered by Confiteor.
- Cover no longer has a gauge cost.

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This will mostly happen. We might even get potency buffs to our basic 1-2-3 combos should our dps falls behind

As for my wish, let Requiscat and Divine Might reflect on our job gauge

I was talking with another player the other night and we both agreed that we'd like to see a merger of the Gunbreaker and Red Mage classes. Perhaps calling it something like Redstar Gunbreaker. Anyways, The Gunblade from back in Final Fantasy VIII never seemed to be a tank role. More like one that could jump back and forth to relieve a tank who needs to recover and hop back to doing mid range magic with for lack words having ultimate finishing moves. Like combos that utilize both melee and magic attacks.

PLD:
PLD can no longer block if not in range of target.
Royal Authority: Grants Devine might still but no longer grants Atonement.
Goring Blade: Make it oGCD, and reduce Cooldown to 30 sec. Now grants 3 stacks of atonement.
Atonement: Using atonement increases the damage of the next atonement by 10% if used within 3 seconds of each other, (10%,20%,30%)
Shield Bash: oGCD, now Costs 25 oath. 1 min cooldown. Grants sword and board buff. Grants 1 Atonement. (atonement can now stack to 4 with sword and board buff) If attonement stacks are present, then the number of attonements will be 4, and attonement 10/20/30 damage also applies and the 4 attonement is 40% damage up. No longer interupts
Fight or Flight: Removed
Requiescat: Potency increased by 20%, grants 25% damage up buff, now calls down a holy bolt on target increased range to 10yalms. Duration increased to 23 seconds. Grants Confiteor ready.
Circle of Scorn traited up to Holy Bastion: Potency is greatly increased, and grants a 10% damage mitigation for the PLD
Espacion: Now also Grants 10 Oath
Bulwark: Duration reduced to 6 seconds. 100% block rate, but each block grants 5 oath.
Intervene: Potency removed. Now able to use on other party members, but grants a damage mitigation of 10% for 5s.
Cover: Removed
Shield Brother: Grants a party/raid member a buff (dance partner). Gives party member 5% of the healing generate by Confiteor/Blade Combo.
Clemency: now oGCD, costs 3000 MP, grants a 500 potency heal to Shield Brother target, and party members within 5 yalms. This potency is increased to 750 if intervention is present on shield brother target.
Passage of Arms: Now costs 3000 Mana. No longer a cone, but a raid wide 30 yalm buff, that gives a 100% of blocking the next attack for 20% damage reduction. Each block absorbed within the party grants the paladin 5 oath each.
Divine Veil: No longer grants shields but increases healing from incoming sources for entire party by 10%. Gives a 1000 potency heal over 10 seconds. *The Divine Veil heal does not benefit from the healing from incoming sources*

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Passage of Arms: Now costs 3000 Mana. No longer a cone, but a raid wide 30 yalm buff, that gives a 100% of blocking the next attack for 20% damage reduction. Each block absorbed within the party grants the paladin 5 oath each.

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Passage of Arms only work against one attack and you get 5 oath for each member hit ?

Why not something like this : still 18sec duration but you get 5 oath for each member hit ?
That way, it continues to protect against multiple strike (like the final boss of The Fell Court of Troia).

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Originally Posted by Jidka

Passage of Arms only work against one attack and you get 5 oath for each member hit ?

Why not something like this : still 18sec duration but you get 5 oath for each member hit ?
That way, it continues to protect against multiple strike (like the final boss of The Fell Court of Troia).

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The idea is to get away from the cast time of passage of arms...which is dumb since most of the time in a raid setting as a MT...I have to move to the party...position myself looking in correct direction....hit the button...sit there doing 0 damage, while also having the boss looking at the party...so there goes positional for some melee. Very poor design.
This way you can use it and forget it and get the oath eventually...Passage of arms has always been garbage and VERY niche. 18 second duration cast time is an ETERNITY of doing nothing so what do most PLD's do...they just flash the skill without sitting there. Does it look cool when you use it? Yes. Does it matter when you simply flash it and the party gets the buff? No.

So just rip off the band aid and just make it instant with no cast then I can move, attack, use other skills, etc;

Using Passage of arms correctly will net you 20 oath or 40 oath if you use it when it matters, and you help out the heals a bit, and there is such a thing as balance in mitigation. I'm reducing the amount of mitigation of Passage of Arms to a one hit 20% mitigation in exchange for 3000 MP. The reward is 40 oath in an 8 man pt. This would make it MUCH more viable in a raid setting to soak up raid wides that are pretty common. P12s has raid wides nearly every min.

I'm also trying to lean into the whole mage/tank that is PLD. PLD lore has always had it as a protector and knight/healer. Which is BARELY present currently as Clemency is relegated to a DPS loss, and healers HATE, HATE, HATE when you use it. So our passive healing is all we get along with Divine Veil.

Plus with the way I would like PLD is very oath spender heavy, and putting those choices back into the game is something SE has removed with "homogenization" everyone is so afraid of.

PLD - Clemency is now an oGCD with a 5-sec CD costing 25 oath

I'd like to see the tank jobs actually play different enough to actually make the jobs feel differently. If you align your hotbars up properly, the jobs are nearly interchangeable. However, when we play a game with such rigid roles as tank, healer and DPS with no room for anything that can fit between those roles, the devs aren't left with another option due to the hyper focus on job balancing.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I'd like to see the tank jobs actually play different enough to actually make the jobs feel differently. If you align your hotbars up properly, the jobs are nearly interchangeable. However, when we play a game with such rigid roles as tank, healer and DPS with no room for anything that can fit between those roles, the devs aren't left with another option due to the hyper focus on job balancing.

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They could give each tank actual job mechanics deeper than 'get gauge, spend gauge, press cooldown for more gauge,' have new mechanics that take advantage of their gauges and resources in new interesting ways, actually have you WORK for those mechanics, and make that work FUN while maintaining a sense of identity and job fantasy for each job. All of that can be done without stepping on other roles' feet and while maintaining a sense of balance...

... but they seem to be allergic to creative job design in this role, though I'd love to be proven wrong come media tour.

A PLD change I would want would be that Divine Might turns Shield Bash into like Holy Shield Bash making it a cone aoe including the stun.

Agreed DRK's Shadowclone Jutsu belongs with ninjas. Give it a big whopping SORD.

Warrior - Moved to the melee dps category.
Now tank balance can be discussed in good faith.

Are you really still this upset over dark knight no longer having overwhelmingly high damage to the point that drk/drk was a more than viable composition?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Are you really still this upset over dark knight no longer having overwhelmingly high damage to the point that drk/drk was a more than viable composition?

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I want War players to stop cannibalising any sort of identity Drk develops until War is just a direct upgrade over it and to then put the blame on the job.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Are you really still this upset over dark knight no longer having overwhelmingly high damage to the point that drk/drk was a more than viable composition?

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My static off tank is a DRK...which let's face it is basically a 9k DPS. We used to be WAR and DRK...then I changed to PLD when the rework happened. I'll say this. My healers LOVE that i'm PLD now. They don't worry so much about my survivability as much and I still catch them DPSing while i'm at 50%...but this practice has forced me to use my full toolbox as a PLD. Bulwark exists, Passage of Arms exists, and when I can use Holy Sheltron.

PLD requires much more understanding of stretching out your mitigation imo compared to WAR. WAR I could just blast Bloodwhetting every 25 sec, and since Bloodwhetting/Nascent doesn't require Beast Gauge....MASH that BUTTON. Very rarely did I have to use Nascent on my off tank exception would be every tank buster in P10s. PLD...I spend my oath VERY carefully now as I use it to make my longer cooldowns stretch a bit further.

PLD has so much passive healing between Holy Sheltron and Blade Combo every min. It is kind of disgusting how much passive healing PLD has now.....and I love it.

In regards to your comment....Having a PLD that can spread out mitigations very well does increase DPS. Our DRK spends more MP on TBN's for me and less on himself, and I have to let him know if I over mitigated which would mean TBN won't break. Healers are SPAMMING that Broil/Fall Malefic buttons....literally letting me fall to sometimes 30% HP...but then I hit my blade combo and I pull myself out of it...So they know when my blade combo comes up. Veil and Passage are niche...but Veil is so good for a 1000 potency heal with a small layer of mitigation added....Veil is so good now.

So if you mitigate correctly you DO increase party damage.

Mitigation example:
P12s After lazy lasers wait for Hallowed Ground to fall off...use 1 Holy Sheltron until Para 2. 50 oath Pop Reprisal for raid wide.
P12s Shared Tank buster. Sentinel on cast bar + Holy Sheltron before cast bar ends. Intervention to off tank when I get hit. 100 Oath
P12s Prior to super chain 1. Use Bulwark...wait the 10s and use Holy Sheltron. 1st Superchain mech wait for hit...pop veil for second hit. 50 Oath
P12s Following Superchain 1. Pop Holy Sheltron....wait for wing cleaves...Para/Appa jump use Rampart + Holy Sheltron. No intervention needed as DRK has TBN and para/appa doesn't hit tanks that hard, but the bleed is why I use Rampart...need a longer CD mit. 50 Oath
P12s Into Para 3. Holy Sheltron during free time until I get my debuff. Solve Para 3...tank buster immediately after. Sentinel on cast bar + Holy Sheltron before cast bar ends. Intervention to off tank when I get hit. 100 Oath. Pop Reprisal for Raid wide.
P12s Nothing really after that....I can Holy Sheltron w/e I want. Rarely Holy Sheltron during Limit Cut as I don't take much damage....Usually Pop Viel and Clemency folks during Limit Cut. Pop Reprisal before limit cut raid wide.
p12s Passage of Arms after solving Limit Cut...Super Chain IIA and IIB are easy to avoid...no damage going out...Just use Holy Sheltron at will....
P12s Last Para/Appa I stack with the party and the DRK pops Living Dead.
Kill boss.

Maybe Crush Helm is the only tricky Tankbuster as you have to time the hits. I typically Pop Sentinel on the 1st, Holy Sheltron on the 2nd, and Intervention on the 4th to my OT, get Esunaed. We have roughly 75% HP left...before it was around 40% left until we got the timing down.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I want War players to stop cannibalising any sort of identity Drk develops until War is just a direct upgrade over it and to then put the blame on the job.

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Out of interest, what is it you consider dark knight's identity?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Out of interest, what is it you consider dark knight's identity?

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A knight with affinity for magicks, not too dissimilar from Pld but no healing. I think a cool identity for Drk would be to have the most and best shields of all tanks, but currently it doesn't. TBN is it's only shield and it got powercrept. Drk's defensive toolkit is just worse than what the others provide. It has all of it's healing tied to it's clunky invuln, PLD and War have strictly superior party mits, you are now expected to deal the least damage of all tanks, we are the only tank that risks a damage loss for using our mit (usually happens due to external mits). The list just goes on and on. Damage was all it had, but we weren't allowed that either and the War playerbase once again could not stand the idea of Drk doing anything better. So now Drk is just the worst at everything and nobody cares because we had 2 good tiers. I have no reason to doubt that we'll see this very same song and dance play out in DT; Drk does cool thing, streamer gets mad, now all tanks do cool thing, making it no longer interesting and Drk becomes worse warrior.

I have less issues with the hoops DRK has to jump through and more with the fact that it isn't rewarded for it.
There are legitimate strengths that Dark Knight has, even things that no other tank has, and I'll even say I find the job inherently more interesting than FellCleave & FellCleave Accessories. The problem I have is that every strength it has comes with a draw back.
Like this:

TBN has a shorter CD than the other Tank Short Mits
But its also Weaker
And its the only one that can be a Damage loss, and no the game isn't really curated to see if TBN is even applicable in all content.
The existance of oblation doesn't really even the playing field.
Oh and you also just have no sustain, so you can very easily find yourself in scenarios where Dark Knight basically has no unique tools for tanking in certain content, and cant even restore the damage you'll take.

Dark Mind has the strongest effect of 20% Mitigation, AND 60s CD
Only against magic so theres a good chunk of content its not even applicable on


Now the existance of all 3 of Dark Mind, Oblation and TBN make dark pretty tanky in magic only fights, and only there. But not so much so that I think its a notable upside. Dark Knight will be pressing 3-4 mits to get by things, to other tank's 2 mits.
This isn't a bad thing, but the upsides of this rarely actually come into play, and on a tank thats already pretty high APM it can be chaotic.
I also think since the over-buff to Shake it off, its really questionable why Heart of Light or Dark Missionary are ALSO magic locked, I don't think it would break the game if this skill was more applicable to all content and not just specific mechanics of specific fights.


Basically all of this comes together to make a tank that is really frail and awkward in content the developers deliberately ignore when balancing the game. And with the addition of Criterion we can't even shrug that off anymore.

DRK needs an edge (ba-dum tish) over the other tanks that they would not want.

Are we really going to sit here and legit argue that DRK is frail, has tank survivability drifted so far that DRK is legit considered frail

If anything DRK is at the top end of how survivable a tank should realistically be, GNB, WAR and PLD are comically overpowered

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Are we really going to sit here and legit argue that DRK is frail, has tank survivability drifted so far that DRK is legit considered frail

If anything DRK is at the top end of how survivable a tank should realistically be, GNB, WAR and PLD are comically overpowered

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Do you really think they're going to nerf 3 other tanks for this?