Just saying...the most popular MMO back in the day. World of Warcraft didnt design their raids to be run by a niche group of guilds. Any guild could do the raid without screwing up the instance for other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44
Please dont bring back Relic Quest Zones
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08-10-2023, 08:40 AMAtelier-Bagur
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08-10-2023, 08:41 AMSupersnow845You know you can force open more eureka instances without much effortQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-10-2023, 08:42 AMAtelier-BagurHahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by TheNight
Oh boy, you know I actually was hoping you'd be a good little forum user and discuss the game but I guess since you didnt argue any of my points. Im just gonna assume you agree with what I said then. -
08-10-2023, 08:44 AMTheNightYou aren't even here during Stormblood so why would you care? You're taking one single systems oversight to condemn the entire concept of relic quest zones? Pray, focus on doing the MSQ and let other players enjoy their optional content in peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
Then again, I doubt you would since you very much enjoy insulting and harassing players who enjoy content that you don't. -
08-10-2023, 08:45 AMStormpeaksExcept they do make a point though, I'll take grinding bozja or eureka over doing the MSQ multiple times any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-10-2023, 08:45 AMAwesomeJr44You points were bad, so why do you feel entitled to a proper response?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
I wish I could like this multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormpeaks
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08-10-2023, 08:46 AMWinterfangAnd they did do that with their next iteration of delubrum reginae along with it's savage version for Bozja.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-10-2023, 08:50 AMAtelier-BagurThats such a terrible backwards ass solution to the problem and also something that nobody would ever do because the BA discord group already exists. The problem is that its so gated like that and we're praising it as if its such a good design for an MMO content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Again the fact that the devs learned their lesson in Bozja raids to not do that proves my point. Why are there no BA groups in the PF? (thats are not privated) Oh thats right because of shit like that.
GOOD GAME DESIGN <claps> -
08-10-2023, 08:52 AMZephyrMenodora
Someone managed to do the MSQ 5 times? Once in a while I want an alt to do it a 2nd time, but then I remember how much filler there is and I can't even do it a second time lol.
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08-10-2023, 08:53 AMStormpeaksoh no having to join a discord to get easy access to content ? in my mmorpg ? being social ? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...vqVO/giphy.gif -
08-10-2023, 08:53 AMSupersnow845Your argument is you need to work with the discord to do content even if you don’t want to join the discord, well if you adamantly refuse to talk you actually don’t, it’s just another solution, again I’m never going to view talking to a discord as a bad thing in an MMO;Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-10-2023, 09:06 AMStormpeaksThe poster above you did, and the funniest thing is that he's saying that bozja/eureka are too grindy and have no "purpose", but yet doing the MSQ multiple times somehow has a purpose to himQuote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora
bit weird if you ask me -
08-10-2023, 12:03 PMTeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeej
Counterpoint, I have the most fun in this game doing Save the Queen stuff, and also think it's probably the content truest to the MMO goal of having people play together.
I lead a discord community that runs anyprog pug raids into Delubrum Reginae (Savage), and even though it's old content people are coming in all the time and we run DRS once a week. It's a lot of fun in my opinion, and the tension that comes from having to prepare lost actions, reraiser and pure essence and go in and get as far as one can makes it feel like every foray into the dungeon is meaningful and challenging.
I'm hoping they make more content like this. I happen to think they hit a decent balance for farming required stuff in Save the Queen... maybe a few more places to get fragments of resolve and fragments of sagacity but otherwise fun.
Not everyone's gonna like all pieces of content, but Save the Queen will hold a special place in my heart just by being challenging and requiring a lot of people--the communities that form to challenge and set up prog pipelines for this content are magical to me.
-Nacl -
08-10-2023, 12:40 PMEastwall
I think bozja was okay except the timeworn artifact. The drop rate in potd was terrible on floor 51-60. I had to dc travel to finally find delubrum on pf. I wish that thing was soloable like variant dungeon. I don't care if se makes another special zone, just don't repeat the cancer called timeworn artifact.
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08-10-2023, 06:03 PMTaleraRistainAtelier has a good point about Bozja raids versus Eureka. They don't seem to have repeated this exact design. Yes, they have DRS but that's something where you gather people and queue up for it not the succession of events needed to unlock BA. I very much doubt it was SE's intention that a group of players in Discords have this much power and authority over content that SE developed. They want players to try their content and have been doing more things to encourage the ability to PUG. Look at the raid planner they're going to add for 7.0. That will be a huge assistance to PUG raiding since organized groups were already using tools like that. I find it unlikely even if they did bring back field content that we'd see something with the complexity in level of access that BA has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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08-11-2023, 01:24 PMRitsukoSonodaTBH the only issues with the Bozja relics IMO were how wonky the item quantity requirements were, especially when paired with some of the drop rates. They were nice enough to let you flag a weapon at each step to sort of make an assembly line but certain steps ended up bottlenecking the whole thing slowing the overall process down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
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08-11-2023, 06:24 PMForsakenRoe
The ideal solution is to just have two options for the exploratory-zone based relics. This is all one big example, from here on, please consider that when I say a zone like 'Pagos' or 'Bozja', you could also substitute 'Dawntrail Exploratory Zone' and the same logic applies. So, consider how much people hated Pagos on release. Now consider, what if you could get the mats to make the relic via an alternative route, by spending tomes? We now have a trade where you can spend Pagos Crystals to get Louhi Ice. So if that was in from the start, Pagos Crystals cost 5 tomes each, and Frosted Protean Crystals cost, say, 50 each, you need 500 Pagos (2500 tomes), 31 Frosted (1550 tomes), and 5 Louhi Ice bought with 250 Pagos (1250 tomes). A total of 5300 tomes for one relic, for that step. Sounds like a lot, but if it were Poetics to spend, not 'current uncapped tomes' (or better yet, a mix of the two), then it's a lot easier because there is so many more sources of Poetics. You'd be incentivized to do older content in roulettes IE MSQ or Alliance, and you could level any 50+ class and still 'earn' towards the relic on your main. Even if it were 'current uncapped tome', 5300 is a lot, but it's 'an option' that currently does not exist for those who would want to 'avoid doing the exploratory zone content'. Also, now that Eureka gives Poetics (since it's old content), such a system would allow (later once it's not relevant anymore) for a player to earn progression by doing Eureka, and also at the same time, earn progression by doing Eureka and earning tomes from it, which can then be spent on the same mats they're already getting, double-dipping progression to speed up the grind (and this is fine because it's no longer relevant). In effect, the content wouldn't even need to have patches like 'the amount of gooberdoo's dropped by X content has been increased from 1 to 3'. The changeover of 'tome that is not used' to 'Poetics, which are used to buy mats' would function AS that 'make it easier patch'.
Unbind the relic from the level progression in the zones, and allow people to fully complete a relic without setting foot in the zone if they so choose. Bozja was so close to having this right, but it forced people to go into the content, and level up, to unlock access to the quest that would allow the next upgrade step. -
08-11-2023, 06:26 PMMinifie
I mean I get you don't like these zones, but people do. If the relic is tied to it, I won't need to rush, but I also won't mind. I don't HAVE to do it to complete savage or ultimate, nor to do fishing or PvP, or just chill in limsa.
Having some incentive for those of us not super keen is a good thing to help fill the content out even more, and if you really don't like it you don't have to have the items.
In saying that, please no wal-mart last step items for relics please. I can't get over some of the 535 resistance items. . . -
08-12-2023, 12:42 AMMinarisweetThis makes me convinced xiv players don't like mmos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-12-2023, 12:55 AMcaffe_macchiatoThis is also why Yoshi-P wanted to kill off forays. The entire trajectory of the game is going towards being single-player. Per the latest live letter, the entire free trial up to level 70 is fully single-player and is advertised as being playable "alone or with groups". Just like Variant dungeons, just like Island Sanctuary. He doesn't want cooperative play in his game anymore, except for that weird little raiding tidbit that he keeps stuffed in the corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeej
And part of me thinks he doesn't care about the "magic" either. It's all style and no substance because FFXIV is on the tail end of its lifespan and he has other things to do. No time to think about "core gameplay structures" and "gameplay philosophy".
The only good part of FFXIV in the drought is when people come together to play old content again, but even that will get boring after a while. -
08-12-2023, 01:34 AMangienessyoYeah, I read a signature on the forums a bit ago that said something along the lines of "Eureka/Bozja are liked by people that love MMOs. They're hated by people that don't like MMOs." And it's pretty accurate. I'm one of the people that loved Eureka/Bozja and it's hardly the longest grind I've ever done in an MMO. Not counting the mentor mount I got as that wasn't something I actively grinded, my longest I think was getting exalted with Darnassus back when WoW was about a year old? I had to turn in 14,000 or so runecloth so I could get a cat mount. I also participated in my server's opening of AQ back in the olden days. (my guild wasn't getting a scepter, but we still helped with opening the gates)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minarisweet
I miss the community aspect that stuff like Eureka/Bozja bring to the game. Right now the game is quietly stand in Limsa for an hour before raid, maybe do a roulette, do raid, log out and play WoW or Baldur's Gate 3. -
08-12-2023, 02:53 AMAtelier-BagurWhy can't the content be both socially invested and not be a long grind with minimal activities for it? If there were more options for progression in Eureka and Bozja then that would be fine by me. But there's no quests or dungeons or item crafting/turns or something else besides just being a group barely communicating anything substantial besides NM call outs. Again, I've ran this content from start to finish 4 times and everytime the social experience is generally the same. All I ask is for exploratory zones to have more things to do besides Fate farms. That's literally it.Quote:
Originally Posted by angienessyo
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08-12-2023, 04:20 AMNebelheimI feel ff14 has been focusing more into solo play and losing more of its mmo aspects since shadowbringers to bring in people who prefer singleplayer solo games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minarisweet
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08-12-2023, 04:37 AMTaleraRistainIt's not completely accurate. I love MMOs. I dislike Eureka and Bozja for the experience I'm looking for in this game. I played EverQuest. I had my epic on at least 2 characters that I can remember but I think it was closer to 3 or 4. That was months of dedicated work and required high level raiding in that game. Eureka and Bozja hearken back to the old school experience of MMOs of that era where there were specific areas in a zone where players parked in groups and camped and grinded. They really tried that with Anemos where grouping was what everyone did until they discovered the FATE train. Then SE tried to kill the FATE train in Pagos.Quote:
Originally Posted by angienessyo
But I dislike these zones because that's not the experience I'm looking for in XIV. I want something that is more accessible to interact with at my own pace and per my own preferences. There's a reason I say that I played EverQuest and it's not still play. I love tackling different content. I just want the freedom to tackle it when I want to, to the level that I want to, and with decent rewards for my time expended. My epics in EverQuest were great and useful but looking back now I really don't know that they were worth spending that much of my free time on. I just didn't know there were other options until MMOs started coming out that broke away from the idea of games of that generation. MMOs nowadays are a much different genre and throwbacks are fine, but they need to keep in mind the changing face of MMOs and how to appeal to more than just a niche group of players. -
08-12-2023, 05:55 AMZairavaRemove the part where you work and group together in content for such rewards and progression like Eureka and Bozja, or hell even including the option to not do so, would near kill the actual socialization aspect, which is part of the appeal to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
If the content isn't for me, and I don't like it, I don't do it. That's why I haven't done Island Sanctuary. Not every single thing in this game has to be centered with single player in mind. I'm playing an MMO, I want at least some content where I need to group up and work with others in an open zone that actually feels like a threat. The relics, the armor or glam that comes with these just happens to be perfect motivaters alongside the progression and just giving me that classic MMO feel. It is literally one piece of content compared to the rest of the game which is by far some of the most accessible content I've ever seen, let us that enjoy this have it.
I've said this in the past and I will here. You should be able to get the relic with another method outside of these zones, not just one or the other. There's plenty of other content with other rewards. -
08-12-2023, 06:02 AMAtelier-BagurFirst of all, I feel that this is a good counter argument against Eureka and Bozja because of the fact that people who enjoyed old school MMO experiences would most likely still find FFXIV's exploratory zones lackluster in general. I've mentioned my criticism before but again, the main issue behind Eureka and Bozja is that there's not much else going on with its design. Its so open-faced in its grind unlike say classic World of Warcraft or Everquest or OSRS where they dress up those grinds with various activities and options to approach its progression that it feels like a game. Eureka and Bozja DOES NOT feel like a game, its feels like a long chore and I understand that this is such a hard pill to swallow but monotonous grinds should not be the standard for MMO content.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
Look at it this way, Baldur's Gate 3 the newest most praised rpg on the market right now. Its hailed as a meaty, comprehensive return to form of what rpg enthusiasts desperately sought for. Guess what it lacks? long boring grinds or battle passes to pad out the content for the sake of player retention. Did you need to grind levels in BG3? No. Did you need to slowly churn the same boring activity to get to the good parts? No.
We can also look at another classic game; Chrono Trigger where the game lacked the need for grinds, it was short, it was paced incredibly well and you always moved forward rather than staying stuck in 1000. A.D for levels just to get to next area.
I know. These two games Ive listed arent MMOs but most of us are no longer little kids whom had all the time in the world with little responsibility, we're grown adults likely with families and jobs and very little time to game; and I think the future of MMOs is to move past obvious retention systems just to keep us subbed. Am I saying that current FFXIV is doing this part well? Ehhh...I mean, not really? There's some content that could've used more cooking in the oven or more meat in its bones but at the very least its taking that step in the right direction. -
08-12-2023, 06:09 AMZairavaThe last point is subjective, but I will agree on one thing. Being that they could evolve the content beyond what it was with Eureka and Bozja, which is why I'd say they could technically take this into the zones we already have (In Dawntrail's case, it would be Dawntrail zones) and use the assets used for the zones (like anemos, Zadnor, etc.) to expand upon those. They should definitely keep the CE system, while I prefer Eureka, that's one thing I can say Bozja did really well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
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08-12-2023, 10:06 AMTaleraRistainSo would you be okay with not having the relic questline associated with it? It can be an option to complete steps, but have the relic questline as its own thing, not tied to the zones? I've seen a lot of people who support Eureka and Bozja but also want to force others into this content because they think the relic should belong exclusively to it now, nevermind that it was only that way for 2 expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
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08-12-2023, 12:13 PMZairavaFor clarification, I want the relic to be tied to it but ALSO provide another means of getting outside of it for the people disinterested in that content.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
So let me bring Eureka for example. Eureka is by far my favorite relic acquisition and progression in the game. People who want to get them through the Eureka would be able to do so.
Now lets say that they ALSO have another method of obtaining them..lets say 2000 of the former tome currency NOT poetics, people who prefer that can do so. -
08-12-2023, 12:47 PMPip_Chick
I think the Eureka and Bozja style content is great! Though I have not had the chance to finish Eureka, I utterly loved Bozja. I was pretty casual in it too, but I enjoyed the community aspect as well as the nice difficulty it had. The dungeons were some of the best I went through, though I wished you could've cued for them like a normal dungeon instead of waiting for them to spawn and hoping that it filled up.
I do agree that they should probably add more variety to it as well. I would say that something that would combine Bozja's skirmishes with hunt trains instead of Fates could be interesting. Something like hunting for these monsters across the map that could be soloed at higher levels, but needing a group early on could be interesting. And if you defeat enough mobs you might get invited by something like a noble Monster who would challenge your might in a 1v1 like the duels in Bozja. Just an idea.
Regardless, even if some don't enjoy this kind of more grindy content, it should still be made for people who do. -
08-12-2023, 06:01 PMTaleraRistainThis is the illusion of choice really because it's still tied to content they're not interested in. Exploratory zones can still have good rewards. They don't need the relics tied to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
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08-12-2023, 06:09 PMSupersnow845Okay let’s say we repeated the resistance relics, however you no longer needed to progress Bozja to advance them, the quest is immediately available in gangos, the step to progress all the way to DRN is removed and the timeworn artefact step is rebalanced so it has better options than DRN or bash your head against POTDQuote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
would you be fine with that, you can get your relic and never look at Bozja, but if I want to do Bozja I can also get my relic from doing Bozja -
08-12-2023, 06:19 PMTaleraRistainYes, since players would have options available to them and would be able to engage with the content they wanted to while also enjoying the story presented in the relic questline. I can recognize that the tome method is kind of giving people what they asked for, but I'd hope next expansion things are a little more structured. I think most players are okay with specific options but just want them to be balanced and not heavily limited. The timeworn step is a good example of how not to do it. The raw emotion step after it did a much better job of giving players more ways to gain the items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
When this topic comes up, there's often the statement like the one I was quoting where the idea is that relics absolutely have to be tied to the zone. I even see people who have gotten kind of snotty about it saying things like "If you want the relic you have to do the zone and work for it". So in many cases it feels rather punitive. "You don't like the content I like so I'm going to make you do it if you want this nice thing that lots of people like". Like they want to both gatekeep the relic reward and punish other players because they like something else. But there's zero reason to make people go there if they don't like it if the zone is designed well and has good rewards on its own. -
08-13-2023, 01:30 AMZairavaAlright so I'm going to have to restate what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
When I meant tying the relics to the zone, all it meant was that the people who wanted to do it through doing the zone could do it that way.
If you wanted to go get your relics through Eureka, do it. If you wanted to get your relics through tomes, do it.
You would be able to get your relic without being required to do Eureka at all. Pretty much what supersnow suggested after me but with different examples and worded better. -
08-13-2023, 09:24 AMTaleraRistainYep, a separate questline that stands on its own but offers a variety of options including steps where an option is exploratory zone content. Something like the crystal sand step in HW. You could adventure, you could craft, you could turn in materia, you could get items from levequests, etc. ARR and HW and ShB non-Bozja options also included daily roulettes at times. So you could grind X or Y to get it all at once or passively get completion on some steps just doing normal things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
One thing I think they did wrong with resistance weapons was that inside Bozja options were worse than out of Bozja options. Some out of Bozja options were guaranteed while Bozja options still had RNG involved. That made no sense to me. I don't think Bozja should have been better. They should have been equal in viability. I don't mind if they bring exploratory content back. I just don't want relic zones anymore. I want to choose to engage with that content if it appeals to me and find something else to engage with if it doesn't. -
08-13-2023, 10:08 AMAstreMcClain
I was agreeing with you until you started speaking about making it like WoW. I wouldn't mind the giant fates (As long as you Opt in like Level Syncing Down but "Join Fate" instead. My real main issue is Open Dungeons, as far as I'm aware that's how that High Level plague spread and I wouldn't want that to happen in XIV.
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08-13-2023, 10:18 AMAstreMcClainYES! Hard agree, I don't find the exploration zones too terribly entertaining- I like running dungeon/trial content, not fate farming (I haven't even finished Eureka at all because of it. That and despite me asking for rezzes roughly about every three and a half minutes, nobody came to help me when enemies K.O.d me while trying to get story parts done and I De-Leveled 3 times from it.) I like the Tombstone Idea as a break from Eureka/Bozja, but I also think should have added the "Collect Items" thing that people like to make sure it wasn't quiet as brain dead as some people say.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
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08-13-2023, 11:45 AMAmenara
I wouldn't mind exploratory zones coming back for the relic since it is optional content you can choose not to engage with if you don't like exploratory zones. I'd rather have a bunch of varying zones akin to how Eureka was setup and then add in a bunch of new "raids" like Bozja added. That being said, if they wanted to add in a way to get the relic outside of exploratory content too, that would be fine as well as it gives different options for the way people want to grind out the relic. I just want there to be something to do other than daily roulettes to get relics done.