More people are playing Summoner now than they were when it was a job without an identity and didn't function like the Summoner fantasy. Which is summoning. Which is does currently, way better than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconBits
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06-12-2023, 04:50 PMTanis_Ebonhart
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06-12-2023, 04:53 PMfulminating
If this is the summoner fantasy then you can buy a gallon of paint and get the same experience wherever there is a wall
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06-12-2023, 05:04 PMTanis_EbonhartYou love aggressive and uncalled throwing insults, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Kinda hard to be taken seriously when you attack everyone you disagree with. -
06-12-2023, 05:16 PMSebazy
Honestly, job balance is actually pretty good relative to how bad it's been in the past. I remember BCOB prog wanting us to stack up on Bards and Casters, or having to babysit the DRG through prog because they had such comparatively low magic def that raidwides would kill them. Or previously successful world ranked prog teams failing spectacularly in Gordias for the sole reason that their leader wanted to stick with AST and A3S wasn't having any of that. There's the misery of how squishy Drks were back in the day, and not long after, the comical death of SCH with the launch of SB. I could go on...
The point is that as things stand, every job in the game is entirely viable. You don't join a group, see a class and worry that content is going to be unclearable anymore. A good performing player in an underperforming job is going to be far better than an underperforming player on a good job.
The game's heavy emphasis on DPS above all else kind of shines a harsh light on just about any damage discrepancy now though. Even in the case of healers, their healing potencial is irrelevant because you never need it, it's their damage output that counts, same with tanks. I'm not a huge fan of that but what are you going to do at this stage.
As for job identity, that's a difficult one. In one regard, visually yes the jobs are fine. Even with the weapon hidden, you can look at a job and tell what they are from the animations almost instantly. Gameplay is where the problems start and things get a bit too sameysamey. -
06-12-2023, 05:45 PMDeo14https://i.imgur.com/r555k1H.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
https://i.imgur.com/AL1uopf.png
If you're behaving this dumb, don't be surprised when people call you out for it.
Kinda hard to be taken seriously when you double down on saying that GW2 is f2p (which is clearly not), try to claim that PLD has more bloated rotation than DRK (what are you smoking), or now these summoner claims (it's pretty good job if you need one free hand, ngl).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
https://i.imgur.com/Kff6cKV.png
Free to play btw, guy who never played it said so, so it must be true.
Once again, stop speaking out of your ass and people won't feel the need to insult you. What a pathetic attempt at gotcha argument when all you needed to do is 10 seconds of googling. -
06-12-2023, 06:41 PMDzianHonestly that's basically the entire game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconBits
All flash no substance.
Job design encounter design, boss design story design no substance just lots of oooh sparkly shiny effects.
That's why so many skills lack weight or impact. They don't do anything except pop some sparkly sparkly. -
06-12-2023, 06:56 PMMoshaStormblood SMN had the SMN identity more than EWs SMN, the biggest issue was pet ai being a pain and that the current job direction was at breaking point by SHB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
People also take issue that's gone from one of the hardest jobs to play to a braindead job with very little optimization. -
06-12-2023, 07:24 PMTintWell I have no idea about GW2 but there in the picture it says: "Guild Wars 2 - Base Game - Free". "Play for free and begin your journey in Tyria!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
But how free is it? Actually the whole base game? Or limited like here in FF14 where you can't use many base functions of the game like trading, /tell and so on? -
06-12-2023, 07:38 PMDeo14It's not really free, it's trial very similar to FFXIV. Haven't played on f2p account, so take it with grain of salt. I think you're locked out of anything from expansions, so you have base class without specializations and no masteries, which should mean you're locked out of mounts too. You're free to level up to max level though, but there are other limitations, like less bag space, less character slots, and I think you can't use marketplace and whispers for non-friends are limited in some way. In general, I would say it's roughly similar to FFXIV, but with different upsides and downsides. But just like in FFXIV, there is no time limit for this trial, and in both games there are some f2p players who maximize the content they can do for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
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06-12-2023, 08:00 PMIvtrixThey are playing it because the job is so simple that you can macro the entire rotation into 1 button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
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06-12-2023, 08:21 PMGoatOfWarWarrior's powercreep set that standard. The only tank that was different was Drk, And I fully expect them to give them the same powercreep now that Warrior's damage is also the highest for absolutely no justifiable reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiaDeem
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06-12-2023, 08:59 PMfulminating
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darthk knight The Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story the devs would tell you. It’s a stormblood legend. Dark knight was a Dark tank of stormblood, so powerful and so healy he could use the quietus-abyssal drain loop to influence the damage to create life points… He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
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06-12-2023, 10:37 PMShurrikhanSo you're again going to leave out Bane, the low duration requirements for instant-cast DoTs to overtake Broil, that its AoE spell was a (6s, in Stormblood) DoT, giving SCH higher simultaneous healing and damage in AoE situations... all to mention Quickened Aetherflow... which had nothing to do with DoTs outside of spending AF stacks on Bane?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The majority of actions MMO with both melee and ranged classes, for starters. Sword and magic right alongside TPS/FPS elements.Quote:
"Moreover," - No, we haven't. Which MMO is that?
So the basis for your deduction that GW2 had no role specialization or 'Trinity' elements, however fluid... was that you rarely if ever party up, and didn't even make it to level 30, in a game that went to level 80 before its first expansion (though using alternate means of progression, a la Merit systems, thereafter)?Quote:
I played up to the mid-20s
Because we do oh so much grouping up in XIV... and have such elaborate role interactions... pre-30? The... occasional Cure or... turning on tank stance and then using our 1-2-3 combo like a simplified dps?Quote:
People largely just...didn't group at all, or only did so for the big FATE Boss things.
Even at that level, though, if you actually went and grouped up with people in GW2 and started learning about their kits and yours, you'd find that skills have synergies that make for a far more than linear increase in efficiency when playing together well. A larger difference, even, than in XIV, short of being able to sustain truly massive pulls for your AoE spam (before tanks become self-sustaining anyways). -
06-13-2023, 01:35 AMRolder50For anyone who needs the reference, this has actually been done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BId-R_GKsNcQuote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
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06-13-2023, 01:52 AMPayotzCan't really talk about the balance accurately in this tier cause I quit raiding after P8S/DSR so I'll just talk about identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulpixi
Physical Ranged does not have a reason to exist. Period. It's a role that was meant to be a support DPS but have their support parts taken away and their tools completely non-functional in PvE.They used to be able to refill resources with Refresh and Tactician, they used to be able to give extra mitigation (on TOP of their own toolkit), their CC tools and the fact that they have free movement used to be the reason why they were brought into raids, as they used to be the ones who would kite AoEs out of the party(Superjump, Panto O11S), or kite adds to specific spots (T7 Medusa), and because it didn't need to be close, standing still to cast or to even move for positionals, it used to have one of the harder rotations to learn on top of having added responsibilities in raid with adds, AoE kiting and their own tools.
Now the role is just a shadow of its former self. It's now treated as baby's first DPS. Want to be carried through Savage? Oh aight, just go MCH. What's the role that has the least work to do? Oh Physical Ranged. What's the most boring role in the game? Yep, it's Physical Ranged (equal to Healer tbh). Its very reason to exist right now is the fact that you have to have them in the party because of a 1% Party Bonus, and even then, if you're good enough, you can just forgo that entirely. Let that sink in, the main reason why Physical Ranged is brought into the party is because it needs to exist in a party , not because of its tools, not because of its ability to kite. No. It's because of the 1% Party Bonus that they have no control over.
--
As for job design and identity as a whole. It genuinely feels like the game used to have all these different shaped holes on the box, and all the jobs are the different shapes that you push through the holes.You like the star shape? Aight, push it to the star shaped hole. That's fun! There genuinely was gameplay variety just because every shape didn't just fit in one hole. Different jobs did different things, not just different roles, different jobs.
Come Shadowbringers, Square decided that maintaining all those different holes in the box was too hard for them, and too hard for new players because for some reason, they thought that gameplay variety was a barrier to entry . So they decided to block up all the other holes and then just leave the Circle hole open. So the devs tried to push the different shapes to this circle and they found out that they don't fit. So devs, under the guise of "listening to players", started to cut and trim the different shapes to be circles.
The star got their angles (Tank Stance/ DPS Stance toolkits, Agro management, Enmity combos) cut out and the star turned into a circle. They still call that a star, even though functionally it's a circle. Square did the same to the Triangle, they cut out all the angles (Selene, Fairy having a separate GCD queue as Scholar, Bane, DoTs, Shadow Flare the back and forth between ED and no ED) and turned it into a circle. Same thing with the square (Foe's Requiem, Hypercharge, Palisade, Refresh, Old Wanderer's Minuet, Gauss Barrel, old Heat Gauge and Reload/Quick Reload), same thing with the rectangle (Old Astro cards, Royal Road) same thing with the Octagon (Dark Arts, Darkside MP management, Old Delirium), you get the idea.
So now what we have is a game that has one Circle hole, a Circle, and all the other shapes that were trimmed into being a circle. But oh don't worry! The trimmed circles weren't trimmed all that perfectly, so technically the shapes are different from each other, but only pretty minute differences, and this iteration of the game was the one that blew up, so now a lot of new players that didn't experience the game when it had a lot of different shaped holes and shapes have their experiences anchored in this One hole, One Shape game, and they think it's the best game evar!
That's how I feel about the game from being a Stormblood Andy anyway. Some of the MSQ and Raid stories are fun and all but I really do miss my different shapes. I really do. -
06-13-2023, 03:01 AMKosachiIf I could like your post 1'000 more times, I would. Echoes my sentiments perfectlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
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06-13-2023, 04:26 AMgrinkdaboy
melee dps have it the best. 5 jobs and all of them feel very unique from eachother. the only thing they might have in common is ninja, monk, and samurai having a built-in haste buff or having odd minute and even minute burst.
tanks are whatever, lobotomized quasi melee dps with none of the rotational complexity
caster seems ok, but rdm has been given the shitstick with how they've been designing fights since abyssos (no longer can you save a run by mass rezzing people because now encounters are rife with body checks which lowers their value to a group considerably). black mage always has it good because it's yoship's main job and summoner was gutted (rightfully so i might add) into something more resembling a classic ff summoner instead of a bootleg affliction warlock.
i almost forgot about phys ranged! phys ranged has been okay. it brings helpful utility and is also the role to play if you want to dps but also faceroll. all phys ranged can attack while moving and while away from the boss so i feel like they get a pretty sweet deal with all things considered yet they still whine and cry.
healers i feel made their own bed by crying and whining about having to dps. most of their dps abilities were stripped away. they continued crying and whining about vuln stacks making it too hard to heal in savage prog/reclears. so they removed vuln stacks and now you just get damage downs from taking avoidable damage. it remains to be seen where healers crying and sobbing will take us next but i suspect it will be not a good place -
06-13-2023, 04:45 AMRenathrasCure 1 has a 1.5 sec cast time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Cure 2 has a 2 sec cast time.
Medica 1 has a 2 sec cast time. (An overlooked benefit that Medica 2 does not share)
Regen is instant cast.
Both Cures and Medica 1 allow slidecasting, Regen allows leisurely walking. Note that BLM spells take up (or exceed) the 2.5 sec standard GCD, so it CANNOT slidecast and MUST use other tools or instants to allow for movement. Fortunately, it does have a lot of these.
If your choices is cast literally nothing or Dia, Dia is a DPS gain. Lilies are preferred since they add up to a Misery, which is DPS neutral vs Glare or a DPS gain if used in buff windows. Regen CAN be a DPS gain instead if it saves you some resource so you can use it for future movement or healing to save you a GCD on that end, but that's a lot harder to math out/execute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Do agree with this, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
And as for the other Jobs, I was comparing WHM to BLM as they do have some similarities in how they do things (SOME, not a lot, but they are foils to each other in a number of respects) and since it can show how it can work in the modern system.
Personally, I'd prefer older style fights with less movement, but the point is that it's entirely possible to do it now. Make Lilies work like RDM's Acceleration where instead of having different abilities, they can be used to make the next hardcast heal instant cast. Some Sharpcast-like ability to make Regen deal all of its healing at once would make for an emergency bomb cure. Make the oGCDs into GCDs like Benison, Tetra, and Asylum (still instant cast - Regen is - but GCDs). It's not hard to make a GCD healer that works in the modern game. SE's Devs not doing so is more an indictment on them than on the concept.
They also existed when people didn't use a lot of those more DPS options on average, and where Healers were nearly completely at the mercy of hardcast heals if they weren't named SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Lol, fair enough, though I have noticed that's a theme between our twoo perspectives..Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
RDM is still the second most played Caster in general content. It's only "collapsed" in high end stuff because it does LESS (not the same) damage as SMN in both Savages and Ultimates. I do agree people will leave Jobs that do LESS damage than other Jobs. That's entirely my point in saying they need to be balanced for doing the same damage!
On SMN, we will just disagree:
1) SMN has never been "DoTs". DoTs have never been on the tin of "summons powerful entities to unleash attacks on enemies". Current SMN does this, old SMN never did outside of Bahamut and Phoneix.
2) No, there's optimization. "In other words" it's not convoluted and so arcane that it's impossible for an individual person using only in-game resources to discover how to play it optimally.
3) Yup. It doesn't matter how much the system is derided if it IS the system. Old SMN also fit the 2 min meta, btw, but was much more convoluted to play.
4) No, you can't. Most DPS Jobs require you to have to look at hotbars to know if things procced or what. Some have Job Gauges that present this well, many do not. DoTs have you needing to watch the boss' hotbar or use a timer macro or add-on. SMN requires none of that to play. You can never once look at your hotbar or the boss's debuffs or your own self-buffs and still play it optimally.
5) It's plenty of flexibility, it's just not flexibility you personally enjoy. Imagine if BLM could shift around its casts so it could choose when Fire IVs don't have cast times? Oh right, it CAN! And that's considered flexiblity!
Again, we're probably going to just disagree on these things, and that's fine.
The important thing is to understand neither of our positions are FACTS, they're opinion/subjective, and important for you to understand that your position isn't universal, just as I already understand this of mine. Indeed, it's WHY I think they should have added GRM at the same time, since I do know some people enjoyed that playstyle and I feel it should still be around so those people could be content with it.
As for the 24 mans - nah, the average player competence was higher in SB to begin with. It's because they hit really hard and not all the mechanics were apparent to players when hit by them. The mechanics were too unforgiving and closer to an Extreme level of difficulty, just if the Enrage were removed (or...extremely more lenient). I think Susano Ex was easier than TG Cid at launch was; and I say this as someone that farmed Susano (and Lackshmi, but she'd never drop her mount!) for their mounts at the time.
Back to your old stupidity, I see? And here I thought you had turned over a new trollish leaf, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon
As we have discussed before, I've cleared more content than you have as a Healer, so you can hop over to your main or you can keep being regarded as a troll. Granted, you ARE a troll, so even on your main that might stick, but at least you'd be backing up your big talk.
Besides which, saying Orbonne at launch was beastly is hardly a hot take. It's something the entire community has held as a fact from that time to now. Contesting it just proves you literally don't know how to play the game, nor anything about it.
Pretty much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
Not only is it meeting the class fantasy more, it's more played and seems to be more praised/enjoyed.
There are people that really liked old SMN (and some who just want there to be no easy Jobs in the game so only they can have exclusive access to difficult content and the like; even Extremes and 24 mans, to hear some of them talk), but that doesn't make new SMN bad itself. New SMN is a fine or even good Job. It's just not old SMN. One can be upset old SMN is gone and not lie about new SMN. It's possible and allowed - encouraged, even - to be rational about it instead of hyperbolic and salty.
Agree with all of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Your last paragraph I have more debate with, and say it depends on (a) the Jobs in question and (b) what people individually want out of their class fantasy; but they all thematically match their class fantasy well, I think, and mechanically, most of them do at least a passable job of it.
Agree fully with the first three paragraphs, though.
GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, right? And the entire base game is free. Some might call that an "extended free trial", but before FFXIV did all the way through 3.5, "free trial" was usually "only for a few weeks" or, the more rare exceptions "only to a low-ish level and part of the base game".Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
GW2 mostly meets the definition of F2P in a general sense for the core game. The expansions are "buy to play", but don't require a sub fee once purchased, and aren't required for the base game.
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Btw, you shouldn't be insulting people, whether or not you think they are "speaking out of your ass". If you need to insult people, it's because you don't have the maturity to make your points without childish schadenfreude attempts.
Also, the person wasn't even talking to you with that statement.
I'm kind of curious: How so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosha
It had only one true Summon and only got access to it once every 2 minutes after an arcane ritual more akin to a Warlock than a Summoner, complete with "Dread" in the name. The base pets were more akin to familiars than to Summons, and the main thrust of the gameplay was around DoTs and debuff interactions.
SB Summoner was more of a Warlock than a Summoner.
EW Summoner is more of a Summoner than SB Summoner.
.
You can hate new SMN for being simple (it's not "braindead", but whatever), but not because the prior iterations were "more Summoner identity", as EW SMN is the most Summoner class fantasy of any iteration of the Job in FFXIV's history. The prior versions were much more Warlock class fantasy. Which is fine for that to exist - again, Green Mage \o/ I'm all for it being added to the game - but Warlocks aren't Summoners in the normal sense, and FF Summoners are generally not at all like Warlocks.
You do realize some people play things because they enjoy them, not because they're lazy or stupid, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I believe I've mentioned Bane - and Fester - multiple times. Like when talking about BRD DoTs and how the SCH ones were comparatively boring and uninteresting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
So which ones are those?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Which one has a class that is like playing Master Chief in Halo which exists along side one that is like playing Link from Smash Bros that is alongside one that is like playing BLM in ARR?
Oh, none of them?
Because if they are so prevalent, surely you could have mentioned one by name...
Well, to start with, it HAD no Trinity in the base game - we all know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Secondarily, in FFXIV, you gain role abilities by level 15 on most classes (not even Jobs, CLASSES), and usually start getting your distinct role abilities quite early. WHM has Cure 1 by level 2 and Raise at level 12. Tanks get Tank Mastery at level 1 and Tank Stance at level 10. Group content also starts at level 10 with guildheists or level 15 with dungeons. WoW is similar, with Spec choice now at level 10 (at least, when I last played in Legion) and even before then, hybrid classes have their first heal before then. The first dungeon is probably down in that range as well.
Trinity games you can tell by picking up the game and leveling for less than half an hour, and are often in a dungeon within 2 hours of picking up the game.
First dungeon, part of MSQ, is level 15. All dungeons are group content and involve players grouping up and filling roles. And new players, a party of fresh first time FFXIV playing sprouts, are not doing things like not casting GCD heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
And while I'm sure if I poked and prodded at GW2, it would have something enjoyable enough to play. The point is, it didn't for me from the jump. All games have to have a hook. You can't expect players to force themselves to like your game until they find something they like. If they don't like it, they move on.
Again, spicy/bland dishes or different types of music: You enjoy GW2, and that's great.
I did not enjoy GW2, largely because it was more an ARPG and didn't have a Trinity system in the base game (reflected in the first hours of gameplay on a new character) at all, and was, in fact, explicitly designed originally to PREVENT one.
It's great that you have that game to play that you like more than FFXIV.
And it's great that I have this game to play that I like more than GW2.
We don't need to make FFXIV into a GW2 clone to satisfy GW2 preferring players, as those players already have GW2 for that need and the people that like FFXIV don't have something else to go to instead.
You can love GW2. There's nothing wrong with that. As I've said many times, different people have different tastes, and it's great there's a game that matches yours for you to play.
Not to make light of your post, because I agree with several parts of it, but this did make me think of that "That's right! It goes in the square hole!" video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7haqnQvrYfIQuote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
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06-13-2023, 04:50 AMtearagionyou're joking, right? do you know what slidecasting is or how it works?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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06-13-2023, 04:56 AMKosachiBecause nobody asked for this? Phys Ranged used to have free movement but at the same time the most complex rotations/priority systems in the game. If I wanted to faceroll everything playing something that doesn't require more than a room temp IQ, I would go play another game.Quote:
Originally Posted by grinkdaboy
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06-13-2023, 04:58 AMRenathrasYes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tearagion
I talked about it in that post. I even MENTIONED it in that post.
Slidecasting is when the cast time of an action is less than the GCD, allowing you free movement from (actually just before, but this is latency dependent) the cast ends until the GCD has completed and you can begin casting your following spell. All spells with cast times tend to have around a 0.5 sec window (again, depending on latency) to do this in. Spells with a cast time longer than the GCD don't typically allow much room for movement before the GCD can be activated for the next spell (High Fire/Blizzard have 3 sec cast times, for example, Fire 4 has a 2.8 sec cast time, and SMN's Slipstream has a 3.0; also RDM's Thunder/Aero if you're playing extremely poorly or your latency keeps failing to register your Dualcast buff), resulting in clipping. BLM main spells take up the entire GCD, leading to them having a very narrow slidecast window vs WHM's 1.5s casts, which allow for move movement. Even if we're talking Cure 2 and Medica, WHM still has a bigger slidecasting window than BLM's very much smaller one.
Both Jobs don't handle long movements with slidecasts, though, they handle them with instant casts or a lot of stutter-stepping prepositioning, and in BLM's case, its various instant cast tools and Aetherial Manipulation.
.
Maybe don't call people out on things they can school you on.
EDIT:
Bonus knowledge, since you are ill informed and probably could use a little education on the topic:
oGCDs have an approximately 0.7 sec animation lock (again, latency comes into play), as do normal abilities, meaning between the normal ability (0.7), first weave (1.4) and second weave (2.1), you can't weave a third oGCD without clipping into the next GCD. While there are occasions to do this, it's a DPS loss when avoidable. Spells with a 1.5 sec cast time can only have a single weave (2.2 sec total), and this is also true of RDM's 1-2 of their melee combo, which have a shortened 1.5 sec GCD allowing only single weave (0.7 for the melee animation, 1.4 by the end of the weave), which isn't true of the third strike (2.2 sec, which allows two weaves leading to 2.1 if you have low latency of less than 0.1 sec); SMN also has this during Garuda (Emerald Ruin/Rite/Catastrophe also only have 1.5 sec CDs, not that you have a lot you'd be weaving there anyway).
Also note that GAP CLOSERS have slightly longer animation lock as well, briefly preventing movement in addition to the effects.
Consider yourself informed, now.
(Seriously, people need to stop rushing for a "gotcha" so hard they step into being extremely easily schooled.)
.
EDIT2:
(Change: Slipstream's cast is 3.0, not 3.5)
Seriously, people need to stop rushing for a "gotcha" so hard IN GENERAL. -
06-13-2023, 05:21 AMtearagion
That's not what slidecasting is, slidecasting is just exploiting latency to move before the cast is finished without cancelling it. BLM can slidecast every spell just like every other caster. If you're not casting (i.e. the 1s before your GCD cools down on a healer post-glare), you're just moving not slidecasting lol. I don't need any of your information, man who said BLM can't slidecast.
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06-13-2023, 05:33 AMRein_eon_Osborne
How do people think a WHM in Shadowbringer can keep 95% or higher GCD uptime in raids when their Glare was still 2.50s and still do mechanics right when they’re not using lily spells/swiftglare/early Dia refresh?
Yep, slidecast. Lol. -
06-13-2023, 05:54 AMAbsurdityI would still call the f2p version of the game an extended trial because it comes with several restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
-You only have 2 character slots and only 3 bag slots
-You can't access the mastery system
-You can't use the marketboard (arguably one of the most important features of the game since it gives you access to exotic max level gear for cheap and allows you to jump right into pretty much all content). Or rather you can but you're only able to buy and sell a very limited selection of items.
-You can't access the guild bank
-You can't access guild buffs
-You can't send whispers to people if they're not on your map, unless you're both friends
-You can't exchange gold for gems (the store currency)
-You don't get the daily login bonus
There are probably some more restrictions that I just can't remember. -
06-13-2023, 06:08 AMIvtrixI was going to respond to his comment on my post but after seeing how clueless this guy is I think I will omitQuote:
Originally Posted by tearagion
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06-13-2023, 06:15 AMSieyaMDifferent builds usually leads to only one of them being optimal and then enforced by the players, which means there will be only one build you are allowed to actually use. Honestly I would rather they gave up on the idea of achieving perfect balance across jobs and just design them to be fun, it seems that the hyper focus on balanced play in the highest tier of content is what is keeping them from doing anything interesting with the jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulpixi
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06-13-2023, 06:22 AMIvtrixNot a terrible idea by any means but as long as SE continues to commit to making savage and ultimate content (which while they threatened that they could pull the plug let’s be real they arnt stopping anytime soon) then job balance will be of some importance as long as they push the facade of “any combo of 2 tanks 2 healers 1 melee 1 ranged 1 caster 1 flex should be able to clear the content”, as dangerously close we have been to “fuck the 5% we’re gonna drop caster/physr and bring another melee” we got to this expansionQuote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
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06-13-2023, 06:27 AMDeo14How much mental gymnastics do you need to justify your baseless argument? Why are you bringing FFXIV trial into this? In what world is 50$ "free"? I paid 60$ + 50$ + 30$ + 30$ throughout the years for base game and expansions if I remember correctly, so do you really want to claim that 170$ is "free"? Are you for real? How about we put FFXIV and GW2 on even ground? FFXIV with EW costs 40$ and includes 1 month sub. Let's buy 10 months of entry sub. Total price is 170$, so it's free, right? Of course it's fucking not, stop trying to be right for any cost and admit your ignorance for once. GW2 was never "free", when it released, you had to buy even base game to play at all, and even now, you can play base game but with significant limitations, even more strict than FFXIV's trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
How about you learn to make valid arguments instead of using random german words to make yourself seem smarter? If someone is acting dumb, I'll call them out, there's nothing "schadenfreude" about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And I wasn't talking to you with neither of my statements, yet here we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Some people straight up swapped to SMN because it's so brain-dead. Scripe from Echo started tier as SMN so he can focus on solving mechanics and so on. There's nothing wrong with few jobs being brain-dead, but SMN has crossed the line of how much simplistic it can get and should either have it's skill ceiling elevated OR deal less damage, because there's straight up no good reason why you should pick RDM over SMN. Jobs should definitely not have different DPS depending on their difficulty, that's terrible design, but when difference between RDM and SMN is so massive, then that is the last resort. Obviously best scenario is to just make SMN's skill ceiling higher to justify it's DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Regarding to your uneducated nonsense about GW2, even though you admitted that you quit at level 20ish and therefore experienced <5% of the game:
So?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Cool, but GW2 is not FFXIV. I don't know whether you expect every game to be carbon copy of each other or what. If you wanted holy trinity, then what did you expect from MMORPG most known for the anti-trinity design?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
GW2 nowadays has holy trinity, but you really only need to play with trinity in raids, strikes and T4 fractals with challenge mode active. All of that is high end combat content, if you want to play casually, you don't even need to know what holy trinity is. However, only elite specializations, which are locked behind level 80, are really focused on trinity, so if you play guardian, you will be just regular DPS, with slightly more focus on heals and protection, but at level 80 and after meeting all requirements, you can pick Firebrand specialization to become healer/support. Funnily enough, if you want to be condi DPS, you use the same Firebrand specialization, just with different trees, weapons and stats.
If you don't like the game and didn't even invest few hours, then stop acting like you're some veteran who knows everything about the game. Just be quiet instead of spewing uneducated nonsense, you're just making a fool of yourself. And if you want to claim that initial experience should hook players, then I need to remind you that we're on FFXIV forums, game popular for having first ~50 hours absolutely miserable. I gave this game first try in ~2014, I hated it, but I didn't spew nonsense on gaming forums, based on my very limited experience. You should try that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
So why do you have the need to discuss the game when you know nothing about it? Why did you even start playing the game known for being anti-trinity, when you want trinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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06-13-2023, 06:32 AMSebazyNono, slidecasting is the act of sliding in the final moments of a spell cast allowing you to get some movement in without dropping your GCD or needing to resort to an instant cast. You can slide cast Flare for all it's worth, it doesn't matter if the cast is longer or shorter than the GCD. What matters is you start moving before your current cast has finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
It used to be significantly more important before healers had their nuke cast times axed across the board and it was borderline vital to have a good feel for this when playing a turret caster like old BLM and WHM back in the day.
Even now, it's still a great mobility habit to practice even on WHM as it allows you more options in conserving Lilies if needed or simply moving at a point where you don't want to refresh Dia. Watch pretty much any replay I've ever linked and you'll see me habitually shuffling around between casts if you're still not sure of the timing. -
06-13-2023, 06:41 AMRaikaiI feel that people sometimes confuses slidecasting with moving during the alloted time for your oGCDs. A BLM can move in both situations, second one is easier because you don't have that 'invisible gauge' to get a hang of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Which reminds me, Squeenix could really implement a QoL feature like the WoW addon that shows the slidecast window in your castbar, depending on your latency. -
06-13-2023, 06:54 AMAbsurdityThe big question is whether or not slidecasting is even intentional or simply a side effect of the jank netcoding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
For all we know they could overhaul the netcode to recognize movement instantly (or as instantly as possible when taking latency into account) and our ability to slidecast would suddenly be severely limited. -
06-13-2023, 06:59 AMIvtrixDef jank net codingQuote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
I view it the same as tick manipulation in OSRS. Not intended, but it’s been around so long it’s essentially a core feature -
06-13-2023, 07:05 AMTintI read somewhere that you can place an emote on the hotbar and when it is no longer greyed out it is safe to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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06-13-2023, 07:07 AMForteNightshadeSo I just did the BLM AoE rotation on a target dummy with only 495 Spell Speed, which is awful for BLM. I was able to slidecast through every single ability, yes even High Fire/Blizzard and Flare. I could also do so with Aero/Thunder on RDM. Now they were micro-steps, especially on the aforementioned Ver spells and Flare but it's doable for the exact reason Sebazy outlined. You can "cheat" movement this way with every cast in the game because the whole functionality behind slidecasting is your ping to the server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Perhaps you should actually practice the rotations before attempting to "school" others on it. -
06-13-2023, 09:36 AMDekent
Balance is pretty good, but that is because the job identity is practically non-existent among some roles. Tanks are my my favorite and having them all at 90, they are 93% the same with a few minor quirks. The particles they poop out is the biggest difference between them.
I feel like the problem is the game is designed around the 120 second burst rule, and every fight is just a DPS check with an enrage timer. Healing and tanking are braindead and everyone's main role is to meet the DPS check. It's to late for this to change now really, but hopefully when we get a 3rd final fantasy online it will be built from the ground up to be more engaging and varied. -
06-13-2023, 10:18 AMRaikaiIn fact, I'll add to this saying that dps checks are meaningless during prog, unless the boss has a mini enrage part midway (which honestly is never that hard to deal with). You can do mediocre dps with a messy rotation, as long as you're able to do the mechanics. You just need to do your best when your grup reached the last enrage point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekent
I'm not sure if I prefer this, or WoW's style of the boss phases moving forward with health %s, but the 120s burst really gets to be a huge weight when it comes to job design, across the board. A dps job's bread and butter ends up being composed of a gimmick to spice up the rotation, and everything else meant to be aligned to the 120s mark or you're heavily punished. It's funny to me that the design before was still bound to certain timeframe alignments, but the marks were scattered across different jobs rather than a global meta, and to me it was more interesting because it required you to think more and understand the timings of what you had at your disposal from your party's kits.
XIV is a dear game to me, but job design (and glamour restrictions) are probably the only weak points. -
06-13-2023, 10:25 AMRenathrasThis is why people on the internet suck:Quote:
Originally Posted by tearagion
You accuse someone of saying something they didn't say.
Prance around about being wrong.
Prance around about lying.
And idiots support you for being wrong and lying.
Thank god the game itself isn't as bad as the forum community is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
You have about 0.5 sec on a 2.5 sec cast. This is highly latency dependent and also results from the communication between sever and client. Try to slidecast with a Slipstream. You can, but you're very likely going to clip your GCD to do so. If you don't care, that's fine, you can do that. But that's what I'm referring to. You can get some motion, but you're cutting into your next CD with longer casts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
It is a pretty minimal DPS loss, so if you want to eat it, there's really nothing wrong with that.
I can get ~1 yalm on BLM after a Blizzard 3 cast from the time my emote lights up (allowing slidecast) until the GCD is finished and I can startcasting the next Blizzard 3. On the other hand, I can get around 7 on WHM after Glare (1.5 sec), or around 4 after Medica (2 sec).
Also, for the record: This was LITERALLY MY ARGUMENT:
ALL OF YOU attacking me over this are just PROVING THE INITIAL POINT I MADE CORRECT. You just are so adamant about counter-arguing me at every turn, you didn't bother to realize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You guys REALLY need to stop being dicks for dogpile points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Holy angry A-hole, Batman!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
Good god, who peed in your cornflakes? o.O
This is the problem with your entire post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
You didn't bother to even understand what was being said before responding in angrybird mode.
"So" is that I said why I don't like a thing, a person told me why that person liked the thing/tried to talk around/talk me into liking that thing, and I explained why I don't like the thing. That's the "So".
Going on an unhinged, insult laden tirade doesn't make someone agree with you. I still don't like GW2 and like FFXIV and do so because, in part, FFXIV has a Trinity system, from the ground up, was built around it, and still uses it. You calling me names and insulting me doesn't make me more likely to enjoy the thing you enjoy that I don't enjoy. And, frankly, it's kind of stupid that you even think it will OR are trying to change someone else's preferences in the first place.
I never said I was "some veteran", nor did I claim to be an expert on the game. The topic - had you bothered to read and understand it before replying like an angry Twitterer discovering Reddit for the first time from his mother's basement - was about removing or dampening the Trinity from FFXIV, why that might be a good idea, comparing to a game that did that/launched without one, and people explaining why they didn't like that.
Next time, don't come out like an angry rooster who sat on a corncob and actually bother reading what people wrote and asking them questions if you're confused instead of launching into an unhinged tirade to prove you're better than someone on the internet.
When is the precise moment when you can cast another spell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
And yes, I (fondly?) remember slidecasting on Healers all the time, especially since only one of them had a common use button that didn't require casting (though AST always did have the shorter cast nuke, I suppose). When 6.0 hit, I was frankly shocked by the distance I could move on WHM and SCH between casts. I'm quite aware of the concept. Even if you guys want to dogpile on me for something, I WAS the one that mentioned the thing in the first place.
I also love how you guys are using any excuse to avoid the point made where that even came up (not you, Sebazy, but the others in the dogpile you joined):
That a hardcasting/GCD using Healer could very much work in the current design, even with all the movement.
Indeed, people INSISTING that BLM slidecasts supports, rather than harms, that argument.
GOD DAMNIT, I outright mentioned this!Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
You can do some teeny-tiny stutter-steps around the field, if your spell has a longer cast time, which means for any PROTRACTED MOVEMENT, you're going to need to use some other resource. You can handle almost all the movement you need on WHM by moving between casts (slidecast for 0.5 sec + 1.0 sec of free walking movement), and when you can't, Swiftcast or Lilies, Dia in a pinch, Regen in some optimization cases can get you the rest of the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If you have a BLM that has to move 15 yalms, for a mechanic going off in 3.0 sec, you aren't getting there with slidecasting!
Holy POOPIE you guys are desperate to attack me as a person and try to discredit any thing I say so you can wave it around in the future (never admitting when you're wrong yourselves and despite me never doing this to any of you) any chance you get and to avoid actual topics being discussed as much as possible. RNGeezeus!
Could be something similar to that being the source of the confusion here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
The topic was about whether a GCD based Healer Job that hardcasts heals could work in the current design. Silver-Strider was arguing it could not, I was using BLM as an example to show that hardcast GCD based Jobs can still work in the current, movement heavy design mechanics we have today. I noted that they needed tools for all the movement we have, but can do it, and that slidecasting allows for some movement, but that GCD heals with 1.5/2.0 sec CDs allow ample windows to move, and then we have Instants and Swiftcast type mechanics on top of that. BLM has some other stuff like Xenoglossy and Thundercloud as well.
The distance you can get for casting and moving on spells with cast times shorter than the GCD is pretty extensive, especially for 1.5 sec casts.
I'm not sure if people are having an issue understanding this or not, though. I do believe it's a strong desire by quite a few people to attack someone they have an irrational dislike of (as some of these people attack me in ALMOST every thread that we both post in, warranted or not), but it could be an overlap in definition.
The irony - as I said above a couple times - is that they're so zealous to attack me, they don't realize they're proving my point about GCD hardcast cure Healer Jobs being viable - the thing that was the actual topic of discussion before this tangent of "dogpile on Ren" started... <_<
There kinda is one, though it's more a work-around:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
Put an Emote on your bar.
Note that the Emote will light up the moment you can slidecast.
It's actually a neat training tool I didn't know about until I already had the timing on all my spells anyway, but I've seen it suggested before and it DOES make a really good way of seeing exactly when you can start moving. -
06-13-2023, 11:44 AMtearagion
lol, unreal reply, just admit you didn't know what slidecasting is, and that you have no idea about BLM
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06-13-2023, 11:54 AMRein_eon_Osborne
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...856&height=468
Ignoring the fact that Medica II as of Endwalker launch also shares 2s cast time with Medica I, your wording in this post particularly implies that 'any spells with [GCD =< Cast]-cast time cannot be slidecasted', when---as couple other have mentioned, you still can.
But then you doubled back later on:
So which is it now? I'm only pointing this out because you're giving off potential indication that you may have different--or worse, misconception of what a 'slidecasting' is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And no, Slipstream is not even close on being clip-risky when their cast time is a tad shorter than its GCD. If any, only BLMs that will actually clip simply for existing because at least half of their spells have longer cast time than its own GCD, slidecasted or not. -
06-13-2023, 12:01 PMRaikaiOn that topic, ironically... As meme as people make BLU to be, I genuinely have more fun healing with it because it comes in reverse of the mainstream healers: you'll spend a good portion of your gcds actually casting healing actions, but you'll get a bunch of strong damaging oGCDs to use between them - you still use damaging gcds, but is more or less "heal>heal>damage>heal>damage>damage>heal>etc".Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The point of discontent, to me, is the lack of healing action diversity, but hopefully the update we'll get in about a month and half will improve the kit. Oh, and of course, make tanks less paper wet squishy, because it directly impacts on the healer stress.