Revert Shatter back to the Original Map

kind like new map, don't have to deal with monk train of people doing nothing about knock back to get high battle buff, and have a feeling borderland will be smaller too for more engagement. Just have to pay more attention to the map or have more map awareness.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Honestly do any of you enjoy the new shatter more than the old one? WTF is with this map now? Theres literally no incentive to PvP with how fast nodes spawn, and it takes just as long as borderland ruins. Who thought taking the PvP out of shatter, and turning it into a point pinata rush was fun?

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……………this is why ppl can’t have nice things.

I hate the old shatter, please change it.

I hate the new shatter, please change it.

I hate this game, please listen to me.

Why did you listen to me, please change it back.

If I was a dev and see these responses. I would just program a filter….

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Originally Posted by Osmond

……………this is why ppl can’t have nice things.

I hate the old shatter, please change it.

I hate the new shatter, please change it.

I hate this game, please listen to me.

Why did you listen to me, please change it back.

If I was a dev and see these responses. I would just program a filter….

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Wow, you have the reading comprehension of Ransu. Go troll on some other thread.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Wow, you have the reading comprehension of Ransu. Go troll on some other thread.

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Everything is a troll nowadays.

New shatter map is terrible, not even because of the layout (however, I am not a fan of the big ice being cenlosed either) BUT because people seem to forget that killing enemy reduces their points. They avoid fights as much as possible and don't even try to keep enemy from the big ice. Just kill ice and run away and half of the alliance is busy killing the smal nodes even when 500 points behind winning team.

The ice spawns are a trap and don't encourage pvp, I hope something will be done about this because communicating in chat isn't helping much. :( I really enjoyed old shatter map (never complained about it, I find the old map fun) and on that one you could come back from an lose but here it just snowballs, especially with teams who refuse to pvp.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Secure did not have PvP, because teams would rotate between bases, and avoid each other. If two teams were tied up fighting over one base, the odd team out would capture 3/4 bases and eclipse them in points, and they'd have an easier shot at going up to middle and claiming points - Far more points then you'd accquire from killing the enemy teams. It didn't benefit your team to get into fights, except in the middle - and then you'd retreat after drones died to go capture bases again. The only real PvP going on in Borderland ruins were small scale skirmishes between 1-2 people on base nodes until the reinforcments rolled in and plowed their enemies out of the way. It's a heavily outdated map which has been limping along for far too long.

Personally I would have demolished the central tower where drones spawned, and put a king of the hill zone in the centre of the map - Forcing teams to choose between fighting for the centre of the map, and gigantic amount of points it would reward to the occupying team, or capturing, and holding 4+ bases which would yield an equal, or superior amount of points. That would make Borderland ruins a more exciting map to play on, and encourage offensive, and defensive plays.

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i think you may be misleading into saying this happens all the time or perhaps its a DC thing but to say this is a common occurrence is something im open minded about but highly skeptical as for your suggestion i like it hopefully they implement it, as the mid part is the most controversial thing when it comes to secure

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Wow, you have the reading comprehension of Ransu. Go troll on some other thread.

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Ya know an old static leader of mine gave me a saying when someone constantly pushed blame or trolling on others...

"Everyone's an idiot and I am an elephant" or something.

If everyone you disagree with is an idiot or looks like a troll to you, it says more about you and less about us. Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Ya know an old static leader of mine gave me a saying when someone constantly pushed blame or trolling on others...

"Everyone's an idiot and I am an elephant" or something.

If everyone you disagree with is an idiot or looks like a troll to you, it says more about you and less about us. Think about it.

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I would think about it, but unfortunately my brain is occupied with more important things than pondering the opinions of someone who clearly lacks the intelligence to form a coherent argument.

Incase you and your other PvP andy friends don't understand, I don't care about what you think/say. I do not require the validation of other people to stick to my arguements. You disrespect me and you can expect a disrespectful response. Don't cry to me when I don't kiss ass and brown nose for people I disagree with, especially when its suggested that I should be "filtered" out.

If you read my post history, you'd see there are plenty of people I agree with, but you're more interested in pushing a disinegenous narrative. If you can't handle dissenting views, might I suggest posting on reddit instead?

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

New shatter map is terrible, not even because of the layout (however, I am not a fan of the big ice being cenlosed either) BUT because people seem to forget that killing enemy reduces their points. They avoid fights as much as possible and don't even try to keep enemy from the big ice. Just kill ice and run away and half of the alliance is busy killing the smal nodes even when 500 points behind winning team.

The ice spawns are a trap and don't encourage pvp, I hope something will be done about this because communicating in chat isn't helping much. :( I really enjoyed old shatter map (never complained about it, I find the old map fun) and on that one you could come back from an lose but here it just snowballs, especially with teams who refuse to pvp.

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This is exactly why I hate the new shatter. The old Shatter was one of my favorite maps, and I had little problems with it. Instead of monks distracting 5 people on your team, now its 8 people being distracted by various random small ices.

I'm really warming up to the new shatter map tbh. It seems far less affected by lucky spawns than the other two frontline maps. Just straight up the better team wins. Teams that consist mainly of crystal bashing fools should lose.

I say the biggest difference between the two maps is how much time can be spent in actively PvPing against other players. The previous PvP shatter map allows a lot more flexibility and a lot less rigidity because nodes take time to spawn and are randomized/cannot be camped, thereby also opening skirmishes to best position yourself before the spawn. Old shatter map nodes certainly wasn't as abundant as it was currently, where engaging again results in losing more nodes in various locations -- and therefore a net loss to stay fighting.

It feels less than a PvP match, and more like "who can break the most ice wins". There's not much strategy to be had because there's a bunch of enclosures that keep you trapped from certain nodes and because there's always ice spawning in very short intervals that people generally don't stay fighting or they lose out on some incredibly large amount of points, making the optimal strategy to simply chase the nodes rather than create opportunities. I was hoping to see if I can find more nuances to counter this, but the map layout & frequency of node spawns prevents much of that in its design. There isn't much room TO maneuver around when you're losing when taking account of how the ice spawns and the map's layout design. Likewise, if you're winning, you stay in the lead, and there's not much anyone can do about it.

From my experience, the teams that PvP and win in the small times where nodes aren't spawning will pull ahead since they can get both the node and the players. However, because these periods are so infrequent and discouraged in the current shatter map, once you pull ahead, it's hard for either GC to come back and pull you down since they can easily get sandwiched in an unfavorable spot due to the map layout preventing a third team from easily leaving. I might not be the biggest fan of the old shatter map, but the old shatter map does miles better at giving players an advantage to turn the tides because it enables easier access & duration for either GC to retaliate against the winning GC.

All in all, if I wanted a PvE-style fight in a PvP mode, the new map is not it. It's certainly much more restrictive than any of the other maps so far. Maybe the new map will grow on me after I play it a couple more times, but so far the new map really doesn't feel enjoyable at all and gives an entirely bad sense of feeling in contrast to the other maps that are much more traversable. The amount of variations and actions that a GC can do are far too limited to make the new shatter map feel very dynamic due to the travel time to reach other nodes relative to their spawn rate. I'll have to play the map a couple more times to see if I can find any new strategies with the map layout, but so far it doesn't seem very likely.

Tried the new map. Seems okay.

Mostly my verdict, too
Only minor complains are a bit to rapid ice spawn
and the dropdowns are.... a gamble, lets call it like that, although i appreciate that its a bit easier to drop down without taking damage now

anything else seems more like a player issue than a map issue

The map could have been nice, but it's not adapted to the player base, at least on my datacenter. That's now the favourite place for griefers against PvP players, who can camp nodes for 30s and pretend they participate. And then they move to the next one, the furthest away from any kind of engagement with other players. With a team like this, you spend the whole game outnumbered. I wonder how it goes on other datacenters.

It's definitely a player issue, the level of comprehension and skill is abysmal for 80%, even when advice is given, but the players where there before the new map. SE knew it, SE brought it, with all that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by Stoi

The map could have been nice, but it's not adapted to the player base, at least on my datacenter. That's now the favourite place for griefers against PvP players, who can camp nodes for 30s and pretend they participate. And then they move to the next one, the furthest away from any kind of engagement with other players. With a team like this, you spend the whole game outnumbered. I wonder how it goes on other datacenters.

It's definitely a player issue, the level of comprehension and skill is abysmal for 80%, even when advice is given, but the players where there before the new map. SE knew it, SE brought it, with all that comes with it.

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Absolutely. Square loves the new shatter because it works on paper. In practice, with roulette players who do not care about PvP at all? Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Role utility was a lot more cancerous with healers. Everybody seems to have forgotten how having a pocket healer that had the ability to spamm heals AND rescue you when shit hits the fan literally made you almost invincible. Those kinds of BH5 players were literally playing on god mode.

And then the pvp reworks before mid ShB it was no medkits at all, so it was essentially the team fielding 2-3 healers vs the one fielding none that was guaranteed a win.

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Sorry but I was playing a Monk solo no pre-made and it was perfectly fine, matter of fact, every class was balanced and you could out do everyone with pretty much every class, maybe RDM was bad, that was about it.

I think you are wearing your pink glass if you cannot admit that this frontline pvp is completely busted/imbalanced/boring literally 3 button pressing no skills only premade sync. zzzz

Finally got the chance to try out Shatter and the new map has made the mode infinitely unfun. Map feels very sterile compared to how it was, and the match, while slightly quicker than how it was prior, was boring. You got your actual pvp at big ice nodes, occasionally at smaller ice if a large group of another team was roaming, but moving from node to node as they spawn, with a map that is visually less appealing and with less anything on it to either use for cover, higher ground, or to your advantage. I'm neutral on losing the base and the need to make sure other teams don't take it, as a shift happened at some point where it didn't happen as often as before, but the rest of the changes make the mode very unfun to play when this was my preferred map. :(

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Originally Posted by maximesan514

Sorry but I was playing a Monk solo no pre-made and it was perfectly fine, matter of fact, every class was balanced and you could out do everyone with pretty much every class, maybe RDM was bad, that was about it.

I think you are wearing your pink glass if you cannot admit that this frontline pvp is completely busted/imbalanced/boring literally 3 button pressing no skills only premade sync. zzzz

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I never ever asserted anywhere that this version of FLs is not busted/imbalanced. I always stated that it's been the same old crap since the beginning, every time for various different reasons. HW because pve kits were completely unsuited and imbalanced for pvp, SB because it was balanced for Feast, and healers had the same kind of weight they had in Feast with no control of who had the better ones or the most of them, ShB was a little less of a mess because of the introduction of medkits and the removal of the rampant crowd control that plagued SB FLs (+ the introduction of cc resistances) but on the other hand it was impossible to secure kills with the increase of innate damage resists, EW has less healing issues but crowd control and especially LBs are out of control.

I do think you do have very rose tinted glasses if you don't remember the meta of older expansions, notably how busted Nin was in SB FLs, or how busted DRG was in ShB FLs for instance, while MCH (and some others) was the laughing stock of both Feast and FLs.

It's never been balanced. It's always been a clownfiesta, especially the 24v24v24 mode, which we unfortunately inherited.

I do agree that FLs could do way better, but I still think they fill their quota of mindless fun for a lot of players in their dailies.

Edit: also had a good laugh at the amount of buttons, SB had the same amount if not less than the current EW pvp jobs, and whiel they added a bit more to ShB, it didn't make the kits more interesting on the other hand.

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Originally Posted by ed3891

This thread has more PvP in it than the new Shatter does lmao

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It do be turning into a blood bath in here sometimes.

Played new shatter map, its.... about as amazing as hotdog water.
You are more likely to have a 3v3 or a 1v1 on this map while the brainlets go and be like "OOOH ICE STAB IT TEHEE XDDD"
rather then taking ALL this time to turn the map into a massive crater, they could have just brought back fetterward. simple fix really.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Personally I would have demolished the central tower where drones spawned, and put a king of the hill zone in the centre of the map - Forcing teams to choose between fighting for the centre of the map, and gigantic amount of points it would reward to the occupying team, or capturing, and holding 4+ bases which would yield an equal, or superior amount of points. That would make Borderland ruins a more exciting map to play on, and encourage offensive, and defensive plays.

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The Borderlands map has something of a design blockage because the central tower has been used for several MSQ or job quest battle instances now – and then the entire map for the 5.55 finale – so they kind of need to leave it as it is.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The Borderlands map has something of a design blockage because the central tower has been used for several MSQ or job quest battle instances now – and then the entire map for the 5.55 finale – so they kind of need to leave it as it is.

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No. The MSQ and Lore are not a reason to "leave it as it is." If anything they should change it for the MSQ.

This is supposed to be Carteneau flats, a disputed territory which all three grand companies claim as their own. We're supposed to be bitterly fighting over this land, and how do we do that? By ignoring the other GC's and capturing vacant bases and killing PvE drones. That pisses all over what Carteneau could be. What it should be. It should be nothing less than a warzone, Borderland ruins has failed to capture that. It's not like they could have put their resources into fixing Borderland ruins instead of Shatter, which nobody wanted changed anyway.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

No. The MSQ and Lore are not a reason to "leave it as it is." If anything they should change it for the MSQ.

This is supposed to be Carteneau flats, a disputed territory which all three grand companies claim as their own. We're supposed to be bitterly fighting over this land, and how do we do that? By ignoring the other GC's and capturing vacant bases and killing PvE drones. That pisses all over what Carteneau could be. What it should be. It should be nothing less than a warzone, Borderland ruins has failed to capture that. It's not like they could have put their resources into fixing Borderland ruins instead of Shatter, which nobody wanted changed anyway.

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tbf they removed Secure to fix it when 6.4 came out, which could mean map redesigns and how the mode plays completely (which I hope, I hate Secure with all of my being) but I can agree that they really should have fixed it first before they redesigned Shatter. Shatter didn't need it, Secure does. Most MSQ cutscenes that happen in Carteneau are not where we fight but elsewhere anyway, so even if they redesign the Secure map, it shouldn't matter much to any MSQ scenes; the Borderland Ruins are more than what is on the Secure map.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

tbf they removed Secure to fix it when 6.4 came out, which could mean map redesigns and how the mode plays completely (which I hope, I hate Secure with all of my being) but I can agree that they really should have fixed it first before they redesigned Shatter. Shatter didn't need it, Secure does. Most MSQ cutscenes that happen in Carteneau are not where we fight but elsewhere anyway, so even if they redesign the Secure map, it shouldn't matter much to any MSQ scenes; the Borderland Ruins are more than what is on the Secure map.

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I'm honestly not sure if they're going to redesign it, based on how long astragalos has been out of rotation in RW for similar reasons. I suspect it will either never come back, or be redone in 7.0. I'd like to say that I hope they don't butcher it worse than shatter but honestly any changes to Borderland ruins would be better than what we had.

Perhaps they can focus on Carteneau more now that the world ending crises are off the GC's minds, and they don't have as many problems with beast tribes, garleans, or primals anymore.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Most MSQ cutscenes that happen in Carteneau are not where we fight but elsewhere anyway

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Unless I am mistaken, we have multiple fights and cutscenes in the central pillar – scenes and a fight in pre-Stormblood when we were activating Omega, and then the 5.55 finale spread across the map and with the fight against Lunar Ifrit on the pillar again. Plus the level 58 SMN quest takes you there to learn Dreadwyrm Trance.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Unless I am mistaken, we have multiple fights and cutscenes in the central pillar – scenes and a fight in pre-Stormblood when we were activating Omega, and then the 5.55 finale spread across the map and with the fight against Lunar Ifrit on the pillar again. Plus the level 58 SMN quest takes you there to learn Dreadwyrm Trance.

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They can easily add the old Borderland ruins to the pile of throw away instanced zones that cannot be revisited in the MSQ, while redoing the map and making a new one.

I agree. It's just not fun for me to play anymore. The ice spawns too quickly and recently, there are large premade parties with DRK, DRG and WAR. All they do is go around, using the ice as bait, and killing everyone with DRK suck in, WAR stun and ka-boom with DRG and SMN. It's far too easy to do a wombo-combo. If you just IGNORE THE ICE, you can win with kills. What's the point? The ice takes so long to kill the ice.
It was fun the way it was before and I really enjoyed it much more. Please change it back.

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Originally Posted by aphroditex2014

I agree. It's just not fun for me to play anymore. The ice spawns too quickly and recently, there are large premade parties with DRK, DRG and WAR. All they do is go around, using the ice as bait, and killing everyone with DRK suck in, WAR stun and ka-boom with DRG and SMN. It's far too easy to do a wombo-combo. If you just IGNORE THE ICE, you can win with kills. What's the point? The ice takes so long to kill the ice.
It was fun the way it was before and I really enjoyed it much more. Please change it back.

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i got dog piled by the enemy team and somehow walked away keeping my max battlehigh lol

Having played a lot of the new shatter map, I'm starting to wish for an unskippable cutscene before the match starts that tells people that the big ice is worth a lot and you should probably focus on it rather than half the team going to hit a single small ice. That would be an improvement.

Jokes aside, this map feels a lot like a map built for PvP with all the chokepoints and ambush spots along with kills being worth more than just mining small ice. But they also make the small ice spawn so fast that they distract people and give an excuse for the roulette users to not engage in any actual PvP.

I tried it out! It wasn't fun. I miss having fun on the old Shatter!

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Jokes aside, this map feels a lot like a map built for PvP with all the chokepoints and ambush spots along with kills being worth more than just mining small ice. But they also make the small ice spawn so fast that they distract people and give an excuse for the roulette users to not engage in any actual PvP.

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Getting rid of PVE in the pvp modes would be great imo

They built this map with pvp in mind (this can be seen in multiple of their design choices for the layout). Little did they know it'd turn out to be full-on pve all game long, the winning team being the one that got the rng of having players do pvp. At this point no FL regular plays this garbage anymore.

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Originally Posted by Teno

They built this map with pvp in mind (this can be seen in multiple of their design choices for the layout). Little did they know it'd turn out to be full-on pve all game long, the winning team being the one that got the rng of having players do pvp. At this point no FL regular plays this garbage anymore.

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Yeah I don't see how anyone could find the new shatter map enjoyable especially if you're farming it for the mount. They would have known this map was a failure if they did even a little open play-testing.

Maybe you just never played a jungler before in a moba like League of Legends. Because that is how it feels like breaking the small ice and invading other enemys territory to break their ice. Its honestly rather relaxing to say the least as you just break ice, help your team out with some skirmishes, break the big ice if its near your ramp or you don't have to jump down, pick off whatever team decided to jump down to get to big ice. And I say this while playing reaper.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Maybe you just never played a jungler before in a moba like League of Legends. Because that is how it feels like breaking the small ice and invading other enemys territory to break their ice. Its honestly rather relaxing to say the least as you just break ice, help your team out with some skirmishes, break the big ice if its near your ramp or you don't have to jump down, pick off whatever team decided to jump down to get to big ice. And I say this while playing reaper.

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Playing reaper has nothing to do with this map sucking, (Infact I'd argue that reaper is one of the better jobs for shatter.) and no, I don't play or care about League of Legends. FFXIV should not focus on trying to copy MOBA's and should focus on what it does well; Smaller scale PvP. We queue into PvP to fight other players, not smack point pinatas.

The overall layout of this map is trash, Especially for large scale combat.The team that priotizes killing enemy alliances wins a significant majority of Shatter matches. What does that mean? Small ice is practically irrelevant, and serves as nothing but a distraction, or as something for your teams deathball to smack along the way. The 2 minutes you spend smacking that ice node doesn't help your team overall. As for the big ice spawns, you may as well just give the points of the node for free to the team that has the ramp in, because most people by now are aware that jumping down that cliff, means they're probably going to die as half the team refuses to jump down and help. That is not good design, and it doesn't encourage competitive plays. The Old Shatter map had nothing wrong with it, the changes it recieved have done nothing but make Shatter from one of the most popular frontline maps, to being hated as much as Borderland ruins.

I never liked pvp modes focusing way too much on pve objectives, because a lot of the casual crowd will literally do just that because that's what they know to do the best and imagine is THE WAY to win the game, and it honestly feels super bad seal clubbing them while they're killing crystals and not even reacting back.

New shatter made me give up my desire to get that 300 victories title (I'm a little bit over half way :cry: ). I'll never understand why they think it's fine to make a PvP that encourage pacifist play. I'm not even doing them from daily frontline roulette. Maybe one day... :shrug:

The Fields of Glory (Shatter)? More like The Fields of Glory (Insecure).

Shatter wasn't very good before and after the map change. It was sad, then it got worse. The only two good maps are Onsal and Seal Rock. I wish Fields of Glory was removed like Borderland Ruins, then there wouldn't be any bad days in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Shatter wasn't very good before and after the map change. It was sad, then it got worse. The only two good maps are Onsal and Seal Rock. I wish Fields of Glory was removed like Borderland Ruins, then there wouldn't be any bad days in the rotation.

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I 100% would agree with knocking current Shatter out of rotation, map is absolutely horrible and I refuse to do it even for roulette.

I don't know if I would personally rate old shatter above Seal rock personally though. Old shatter had its problems, but it offered an alternative for players who didn't want to be a part of the deathball. Going out to attack a small ice node, or capturing an enemy base would contribute to your team, and sometimes prove as a vital distraction when a big ice node spawned. Whereas with seal rock I find the map layout fairly unbalanced especially when you compare cave to the other 2 spawn points.

Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with it before and now? Maybe I'm just indifferent as usual about things.
I only get annoyed about fighting against certain jobs and that's it.

I liked the old map when the nodes just spawned once and you didn't know beforehand which node will spawn.
Also the map design now looks a bit less "natural" I think.