Counterpoint to all the Debbie Downers lately...

Are there any complaints about the game in the Japanese forums. If there are something is wrong with the game, because they hardly ever complain. If it is just NA complaining, it's just normal.

Did you know that I blocked them all? I can't see what they say unless someone quotes them. I totally don't think about them anymore because I blocked them all! By the way, this page is FULL of blocked users. I just want you to know that I can't see them!

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Trust your gut on this one. The more you read both sides, you'll start to see there is no civil discussion to be had in terms of criticism vs good things (there ARE exceptions obviously). Negative threads will see people defending the game, and positive threads will see people attacking the game. The only way to win is to not play, hence a number of us simply blocking the 'other side' if you will.

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I get what you're saying, I do but... I don't know, that feels like giving up. I hate throwing up the white flag. Yeah, yeah I'm stubborn you can laugh now. ( ⚆ _ ⚆ )

Don't mistake me, though if someone gets particularly nasty and it feels as though I cannot tolerate them anymore I'll do what I have to.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

This doesn't exactly help your case. Frankly there are better ways to phrase a similar critique without coming off as inflammatory.

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Critique? What is the point of critiques? Do you critique mosquitoes and worms? Squash them.

Blocking is for cowards.

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Originally Posted by Kickwars

Critique? What is the point of critiques? Do you critique mosquitoes and worms? Squash them.

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Well, I personally don't exactly make it a habit to call my fellow human being insects.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Blocking is for cowards.

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Renalt the Coward does have a certain ring to it. I'll wear that title.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Renalt the Coward does have a certain ring to it. I'll wear that title.

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Renalt the Craven sounds better in my opinion. That floral, archaic Elizabethan does wonders for one's coolness factor, does it not? It's like you're a FromSoft boss.

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RENALT
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THE CRAVEN

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(Aaaah this is so awkward, I'm not even trying to insult you. You wear it so well, I'm playing along but I feel so guilty!!!!)

https://i.imgur.com/mNiPiQE.gif

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Renalt the Craven sounds better in my opinion. That floral, archaic Elizabethan does wonders for one's coolness factor, does it not? It's like you're a FromSoft boss.



(Aaaah this is so awkward, I'm not even trying to insult you. You wear it so well, I'm playing along but I feel so guilty!!!!)

https://i.imgur.com/mNiPiQE.gif

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I like it. I feel like an Uruk Captain in Shadow of War.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I don't really get this behavior either. If you're blocking them, they won't be able to respond or see your posts so why mention it? It seems more braggadocios than anything else. Besides that, you are being as antagonistic as they are with the "Well, you cared enough to respond" post.

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The point of blocking them is so I don't have to read their responses. They also can still see my posts, so they will know I blocked them. I know this because I see people I blocked try to respond to what I say multiple times a day. I mention it to be polite and so they know I won't be reading their responses and can save any effort trying to communicate with me. I also let them know why.

And yes, I'm just a bit tired of some posters going out of their way to try to shut down others by claiming no one cares what they think and essentially to just not participate in the forums. This happened to me a few days ago here, and saw it again this morning towards OP. If calling out this behavior is antagonistic, they can block me. I really don't care as it's likely I don't want to interact with that type of person anyway.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Absimiliard is right in this case, OP. This thread could have been an extolment of how much you enjoy Final Fantasy XIV and leave it at that, and nearly no negative engagement would have been had. But instead you chose to undermine your own credibility and argument and have the second half make denigrative insinuations about large swathes of posters. True or not, is it truly so surprising to see them defend themselves? This is standardized human behavior, it's correct and normal. You invited your own enemies, OP. You are the one who flung wide the gates here, not them I regret to inform you.

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If you really think a positive thread would not be descended upon by the people unhappy with the state of the game to let everyone know they actually aren't happy with the game, you haven't been paying attention. Another poster posted only her positive thoughts a couple days ago and was immediately criticized for posting by several people - some of the attacks even on her character and motives for posting.

You haven't been here long, but you seem to focus mostly on the positive crowd in your attacks and skim by far worse offenses. It's a trend I already noticed with your posts.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

You mind pointing out which thread in particular you're speaking of? Because I can think of two off the top of my head, and one was reactionary in nature designed for the explicit purpose of being contrary and the other's second half made sweeping generalizations about large swathes of posters. So I'm not particularly inclined to show clemency towards those not acting in good faith. As for my "attacks" if pointing out people being overly hostile and advising more courteous conduct is attacking someone then I can't really come to an agreement with you. Additionally, I can only call out what I personally see when I'm actually present on the forums and I'm certainly not going to go trawling through past threads. If this amounts to taking sides to you, then we may as well end our relations here since we probably will not get along very well you and I.

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You really have some nerve calling someone who wants to post their enjoyment having some contrarian purpose. You don’t know that person and have been here a month. You in fact were in that thread saying she was wrong about her own opinions. I mean we can get into your own behavior more if you really want, since a good portion of your limited history is calling out others. Given I am out of posts, good evening.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

The point of blocking them is so I don't have to read their responses. I mention it to be polite

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https://media.tenor.com/KioUvfuCMXMAAAAM/kmt-yeah.gif

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

If you really think a positive thread would not be descended upon by the people unhappy with the state of the game to let everyone know they actually aren't happy with the game, you haven't been paying attention. Another poster posted only her positive thoughts a couple days ago and was immediately criticized for posting by several people - some of the attacks even on her character and motives for posting.

You haven't been here long, but you seem to focus mostly on the positive crowd in your attacks and skim by far worse offenses. It's a trend I already noticed with your posts.

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You mind pointing out which thread in particular you're speaking of? Because I can think of two off the top of my head, and one was reactionary in nature designed for the explicit purpose of being contrary and the other's second half made denigrative sweeping generalizations about large swathes of posters. So I'm not particularly inclined to show clemency towards those not acting in good faith. I know for a fact that I've addressed the more obvious trolls directly, when they're being unnecessarily antagonistic.

As for my "attacks" (for the record, calling them such already harms your credibility from the onset) if pointing out people being overly hostile and advising more courteous conduct is attacking someone then I can't really come to an agreement with you. Additionally, I can only call out what I personally see when I'm actually present on the forums and I'm certainly not going to go trawling through past threads. If this amounts to taking sides to you, then we may as well end our relations here since we probably will not get along very well you and I.

Quite frankly, I'm sorry but nowhere is it a viable policy that positivity ought to be an unassailable bastion that none may dare tarnish. At the end, the purpose or motive of any given thread is less relevant than most would think. So long as it isn't outright discourteous, it should be deemed acceptable and so too are any posts that follow it so long as they follow a baseline of conduct. There simply is no moral position that is superior enough to shield one from the proffering of opposing viewpoints. If you really think I've not been paying my dues equally than I can only vow to be better, though from the way you conduct yourself I have a sneaking suspicion little I could do would you find satisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Kickwars

Did you know that I blocked them all? I can't see what they say unless someone quotes them. I totally don't think about them anymore because I blocked them all! By the way, this page is FULL of blocked users. I just want you to know that I can't see them!

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It does seem like certain people are mentioning it a few more times than you'd think someone naturally would.

Not to get too conspiratorial but I almost wonder if it's supposed to be some kind of coordinated tactic to get everyone else to block the 'undesirables'. I'd like to imagine that it isn't, but it came out of nowhere all at once, and considering Renalt is one of the people doing it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was. It all started right after Renalt got exposed for doing this kind of stuff, which makes it even more suspicious...

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I get what you're saying, I do but... I don't know, that feels like giving up. I hate throwing up the white flag. Yeah, yeah I'm stubborn you can laugh now. ( ⚆ _ ⚆ )

Don't mistake me, though if someone gets particularly nasty and it feels as though I cannot tolerate them anymore I'll do what I have to.

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I'm almost in the same boat here, although my reasoning is less about being stubborn and more about finding humor in the wild flailing of madmen. You need to be a particularly... unique... specimen to earn a spot on my block list.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Blocking is for cowards.

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In most cases yes.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

The point of blocking them is so I don't have to read their responses.

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If it's just about not reading other peoples' responses, why do we have to hear about how certain people got blocked by other certain people in every single thread? If it's just that simple, why are people bringing it up so much?

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

You haven't been here long, but you seem to focus mostly on the positive crowd in your attacks and skim by far worse offenses. It's a trend I already noticed with your posts.

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That's because the worst people on the positive side of the argument are people like VelKallor who gives everyone angry rants, and Striker44 who goes on and on about some invisible majority. Then on the other side, the worst of the negative people is supposedly Aveyond who is just a little forceful with his opinions. To a normal person coming into the forums, the positive side of the argument looks insane and overbearing while the negative side at worst looks jaded and cynical. Towa is literally in the position I was in just a little under a year ago when I started posting more often than the occasional question. I came to the same conclusions after seeing how rabid certain people can be. Are you surprised that someone new would come to these conclusions?

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

You really have some nerve calling someone who wants to post their enjoyment having some contrarian purpose.

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Counterpoint to all the Debbie Downers lately... doesn't read like a thread meant to show someone's enjoyment about the game. If it was, why does the very title mention "Debbie Downers"? I think we all know exactly why it was made, so stop pretending.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

In the spirit of fairness, I feel inclined to state that while I concur with you on the perceptions of those first two I don't know for an absolute certainty if I'd have liked to been around for past posts made by the third poster in question. I imply nothing untowards, of course but assuming there is any accuracy in certain tales I've heard I think maybe I can deem myself fortunate to be a late arrival here.

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Fair enough.

Obviously this is just another person telling you about events you haven't witnessed, but from my memory, the worst things I've personally ever seen Aveyond do are these:
1) He had opinions about what kind of female characters he wanted to see which were debatably (<- and this is a key word as I would argue they weren't) slightly misogynistic. This wasn't anything NSFW either.
2) He was being emotionally manipulated and he called the people doing it out in a very... forceful manner. Could he have been nicer? Sure, but I'm not going to say they didn't deserve it.

I'm not going to claim that he's perfect or that he's the nicest person here, but at least since I started posting more often here last summer (I can't speak for anything that happened before then), he's always had a worse reputation than he deserves. If acknowledging that fact makes me a simp like his haters have suggested, then I guess I'll just have to wear that title.

I feel like some forget that the nature of a forum implies the inevitability of dissent, and posters who will have a guaranteed opposing viewpoint to yours. There is no true, surefire way to avoid this and we shouldn't want such anyway. What we ought to aspire towards is courteous conduct, rather than pure assent. It sometimes feels as though some would rather dissent not exist at all, rather than taking offense with precisely what people say and how they say it.

I mean this very thread is titled speaking of all critiques as "Debby Downers". That isn't the way to do it, and it certainly isn't going to make people actually desire to treat you better. You must proffer something of your own, if you wish to receive of the bounty.

Wow is this guy still going on about how I shut down OP's opinions?

Please. Like this thread was made in good faith. It's not really hidden either, so any attempt at painting OP as a poor soul who only wished for a drama-free forum experience falls flat.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I'm almost in the same boat here, although my reasoning is less about being stubborn and more about finding humor in the wild flailing of madmen. You need to be a particularly... unique... specimen to earn a spot on my block list.

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While I'd hardly say I have a saint's patience, I prefer to continue dealing with less cooperative posters until I absolutely cannot do so any longer or until such a time as they say something that offends my moral values. So far, no one has managed to accomplish this just yet.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

That's because the worst people on the positive side of the argument are people like VelKallor who gives everyone angry rants, and Striker44 who goes on and on about some invisible majority. Then on the other side, the worst of the negative people is supposedly Aveyond who is just a little forceful with his opinions. To a normal person coming into the forums, the positive side of the argument looks insane and overbearing while the negative side at worst looks jaded and cynical. Towa is literally in the position I was in just a little under a year ago when I started posting more often than the occasional question. I came to the same conclusions after seeing how rabid certain people can be. Are you surprised that someone new would come to these conclusions?

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In the spirit of fairness, I feel inclined to state that while I concur with you on the perceptions of those first two I don't know for an absolute certainty if I'd have liked to been around for past posts made by the third poster in question. I imply nothing untowards, of course but assuming there is any accuracy in certain tales I've heard I think maybe I can deem myself fortunate to be a late arrival here.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

You really have some nerve calling someone who wants to post their enjoyment having some contrarian purpose. You don’t know that person and have been here a month. You in fact were in that thread saying she was wrong about her own opinions. I mean we can get into your own behavior more if you really want, since a good portion of your limited history is calling out others. Given I am out of posts, good evening.

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(◔_◔) I really despise petty tribalism. Is me addressing only one "side" the sole umbrage you raise against me? Again, as I was saying earlier I have not found any of the recent threads about positivity and what they enjoy to not have had a hidden angle or second half made for the explicit purpose of putting down those who did not enjoy it as much. Frankly, they did not exactly attempt to conceal what jabs they made neither. Once more, there is no such policy stating that positive posts cannot permit less positive posts. Additionally, I'd very much prefer it if you actually linked to the specific thread in question and since you mentioned it in specificity the post of mine you found disfavourable as well.

I'm perfectly willing to recant and correct myself, but I cannot facilitate that if you keep remaining vague about it. But from what I've observed, too much of what is not actually "calling people out" is such to you so I suspect we shall not arrive at an amenable conclusion together.

Edit: Wait just a moment, were you speaking of this thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...s-pretty-great

And, more importantly, this post of mine:

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I'd imagine that one of the most glaring flaws in this approach is that half of OP's post is highly inaccurate and ill-researched. If the points being made cannot stay true to the information at hand to players then a suspicion of laziness, reactionism and contrivance is inevitable. The timing could be better too, but that's too possibly coincidental for me to legitimately criticize I feel.

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I contest the insinuation that statement I made there was in any way discourteous, I was referring to how the OP did not properly research a few of the points she made in her post not saying she wasn't allowed to be positive. A few points, like the longevity of certain content and the non-stable implementation of the portrait system did not match what a good number of players were professing to experience. If I need to cut back on some of the more scathing remarks I will, but so far I've not observed myself to be nearly as worthy of condemnation as you aspire to throw me to.

Not to mention, a good chunk of your posts in that thread were needlessly antagonistic as well.

Like take these for example:

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Completely agree, and love to see a positive thread in the sea of negativity!

I was very much invested in Endwalker's story, and I was captivated until the end. I'm still enjoying the updates now but enjoying the feeling of relative "downtime" for my WOL, which is coinciding with him enjoying other interests (taking up a craft, other classes, housing, Island) that all fits me well now that the world is saved. Excited to see where this goes next.

I'm personally playing more FFXIV than I ever have before, as someone who started in ARR.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Why aren't people allowed to discuss enjoying the game? Contrary to popular beleif (here at least), forums aren't only for endless complaining and bait threads. There is one of these for every 40 complaint threads, but all I see are people looking to turn this thread into something negative too when you literally have nearly every other topic for this.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Oh, they don't want happy players here at all.

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This is not the conduct you claim to desire here on this forum, and some of it is predicated upon false pretenses and rather glaring misunderstandings of people's actual positions. In the future, please cut down on the outrage if you do not intend to remain true to your own professed principles.

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Originally Posted by texas_boy

For those that lurk on the forums and are seeing all the repeated negative downer posts keep in mind it seems that this has turned into an echo chamber for a few of the bad actors who seem to thrive on stirring up drama and seeing what kind of reaction they can get.

The game in reality vs. the game presented here in the forums are not the same game.

I log in 7 days a week, play with my many friends I've made in the FC and have an absolute blast doing so. In my roughly two years here I've never heard ONE person moaning about what you see here on the forums. We have a great time and will continue to do so.

See you in Eorzia!

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Hear hear.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

You complain about echo chambers but your post is literally about how everything is fine from your own bubble. Not exactly a convincing argument.

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Except reading the replies, OP is right.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Nobody asked, nobody cares.
I don't know what get into the mind of people when they feel threatened by other people's opinions. People disliking the game doesn't invalidate your experience. Some people can be fine with the game while others aren't and both can be correct in their opinion you know?

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Nobody asked, nobody cares about all the negative threads, either. That doesn't stop a half dozen from being started every single day here, though. Turnabout is fair play. The fact is, there are plenty of people enjoying the game right now.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

The real problem is that people that see the currents problems acts as if everything was shit in the game while those who haven't noticed them (it's hard to notice if you're not up to date with the content) act as if there was no problem. Yes, overall the state of the game pretty good, but still EW patch are pretty much disappointing, especially compared to those of ShB. MSQ feels more and more filler, several story line were cut off (even if the content is still technically there), and the lack of a proper long running content during the patch is strongly felt.

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This is, I think, closer to the truth.

Not QUITE there, but close: I'm all caught up and still enjoying the game, I've just had to dig deeper than in the past to keep busy and taken a few weeks break since patches are longer now and I don't have a Bozja/Eureka to spend patch downtime/content droughts in. I have found other things to do when playing - my current quest is to complete every sidequest in the game. I have a couple dozen left in EW and I'll be all caught up - but there are other things to do if I really wanted to. Never done an Ultimate, do Savages sparingly, have just completed each Extreme this expansion but didn't farm for the mounts outside of the first two, etc.

Even people up to date with the content can disagree with all the negative posts. It's not I "haven't noticed" issues, it's that many of the "issues" are overblown, and some aren't even issues at all, just preferences of the people that consider them issues (e.g. things that some people dislike other people like; I don't like Island Sanctuary, but that doesn't mean it's an "issue" considering many people do like it and that's a matter of personal preference, not some objective issue with the game itself). The idea that only people who aren't "up to date" can not see the issues is kind of mildly insulting, honestly. Whether intentional on your behalf or not, it does come across like trying to say if people don't see the issues, their position is invalid since they aren't at the point of informed yet where they can understand or know about them. I doubt you intended it that way, though. But I have seen this in other things, like people saying unless you do Ultimates and Savages, you don't get to comment on the game's combat being good/bad, that sort of thing.

In any case, I think the biggest problems are that patches are longer but we don't have anything to really spend the downtime on making progress that's "drop in/drop out" friendly. Bozja/Eureka, love them or hate them, you could pop in solo or with friends, work on, drop out whenever you needed to go eat or go to work/school or whatever. ARR/HW Relic grinds were different, but also things you could work on in bites here and there. And these were all making progress for your character (unless you already had the Savage weapon; even then though, we all know glam is the true endgame). But right now, we don't have that. Tomes are laughably easy to get, especially if you're in a Hunt LS, and Criterion and Deep Dungeon (floors 31+) require premade groups (no DF) and at least a chunk of time commitment, so don't have that "drop in/drop out" that people love. The only thing right now that has that are the DoH/L tool grinds, which are...much more grindy and specifically a Crafter/Gatherer affair that don't appeal to those who aren't into those things - unlike combat weapons, which apply to everyone.

So we're in kind of a weird place of longer patches that also have less to do in general and less to do during the droughts when they're long in the tooth and that also get longer in the tooth now.

...but the idea that anyone who doesn't think the game is in big trouble over that or who doesn't think there are problems is just someone who doesn't know better? That I disagree with. Even given that issue, I'm still finding things to do and still enjoying the game. I do believe the negative naysayers are prone to a lot of hyperbole and misery loving company, even if they have to MAKE said company miserable.

Bruh...

What if we just acted like normal human beings, and praised things that deserved praised while criticizing things that earned criticism? We don't need to have some weird agenda going on, we don't need sides, we don't need to sit there accusing people of being bad actors or alts.

Is that too much to ask?

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Then on the other side, the worst of the negative people is supposedly Aveyond who is just a little forceful with his opinions.

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...

Your signature probably sums up my feelings towards this statement better than words could.

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To a normal person coming into the forums, the positive side of the argument looks insane and overbearing while the negative side at worst looks jaded and cynical. Towa is literally in the position I was in just a little under a year ago when I started posting more often than the occasional question. I came to the same conclusions after seeing how rabid certain people can be. Are you surprised that someone new would come to these conclusions?

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I've spoken at length on my problems with the double standards surrounding the attitude of EW's supporters, but you're being very, very, very gracious to the critical elements here, at best.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

In the spirit of fairness, I feel inclined to state that while I concur with you on the perceptions of those first two I don't know for an absolute certainty if I'd have liked to been around for past posts made by the third poster in question. I imply nothing untowards, of course but assuming there is any accuracy in certain tales I've heard I think maybe I can deem myself fortunate to be a late arrival here.

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I made a decision a long time ago to maintain distance between myself and certain aspects of this forum, but all I will say is your sense of caution is not unfounded.

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Originally Posted by texas_boy

For those that lurk on the forums and are seeing all the repeated negative downer posts keep in mind it seems that this has turned into an echo chamber for a few of the bad actors who seem to thrive on stirring up drama and seeing what kind of reaction they can get.

The game in reality vs. the game presented here in the forums are not the same game.

I log in 7 days a week, play with my many friends I've made in the FC and have an absolute blast doing so. In my roughly two years here I've never heard ONE person moaning about what you see here on the forums. We have a great time and will continue to do so.

See you in Eorzia!

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Your Forum Account looks fresh. I suppose you started playing with Shadowbringers? So you missed out a lot to understand the Veterans.
My friends and FC, who are all Veteran players since ARR, have stopped playing FFXIV. We got bored of the recycled content the nerfs and of course the lack of quality content.
It's not the the missing longevity alone, but also the poor effort from SE of creating content lately.
There is basically nothing to do for someone who want's to play this game on a daily basis, because you don't have to invest your time in this game anymore.

This play another game menality is not good for an MMORPG, which is supposed to be a bit grindy to keep the playerbase busy until the next patch arrives.
That's how MMORPG's work to stay alive.

But the design decision from SE are safe and boring. They are catering players who don't actually play this game much, instead of catering the core playerbase which supported them from the start and still want's to enjoy this game to the fullest.

In my case, i feel stabbed in the back.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Too bad for you, I have quite high reading comprehension. It's why I tested in the top 1% of the country for my law school exams.

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Dude, seriously. Stop. I didnt wanted to engage with this thread, but you make yourself look stupid more and more by every thread you hop in. If you were really that great person, who have better things to do... why are you on the forum arguing with "trolls"? It seems you are not and actually... You are perfect embodiment of navy seal copypasta right now.

So be it. I call things as I see them. Whether it's down to our cultural differences or not it was very clear it was an attempt to put down men at the expense of elevating one of the worst female characters in the entire franchise.

"Slay queen!" scenes do not work for me.

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Originally Posted by MagusMirel

Your Forum Account looks fresh. I suppose you started playing with Shadowbringers? So you missed out a lot to understand the Veterans.
My friends and FC, who are all Veteran players since ARR, have stopped playing FFXIV. They got bored of the recycled content. The nerfs and of course the lack of quality content.
It's not the the missing longevity alone, but also the poor effort of SE content lately.
There is basically nothing to do for someone who want's to play this game on a daily basis, because you don't have to invest your time in this game anymore.

This play another game menality is not good for an MMORPG, which is supposed to be a bit grindy to keep the playerbase busy until the next patch arrives.
That's how MMORPG's work to stay alive.

But the design decision from SE are safe and boring. They are catering players who don't actually play this game much, instead of catering the core playerbase who supported them from the start and still want's to enjoy this game to the fullest.

In my case, i feel stabbed in the back.

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This is an interesting thing to point out. They were so grateful to every 1.0 player who stayed with the game throughout 1.0 and on to ARR, and now it feels like they just don't care about the people who have stayed with the game for 10 years. Now they just want people to play for a day or two every 4 months and play other games in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

This is an interesting thing to point out. They were so grateful to every 1.0 player who stayed with the game throughout 1.0 and on to ARR, and now it feels like they just don't care about the people who have stayed with the game for 10 years. Now they just want people to play for a day or two every 4 months and play other games in the mean time.

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Well they'll get their wish, seemingly. All that's left for me this expansion is no more than a few hours of content in 6.4. Then after that unless things take a turn for the better in terms of the abysmal writing we've seen in Endwalker, 7.0 won't be a definite purchase and my FFXIV journey may as well be over.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So be it. I call things as I see them. Whether it's down to our cultural differences or not it was very clear it was an attempt to put down men at the expense of elevating one of the worst female characters in the entire franchise.

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The fact that you think Magnai is representative of normal men reveals more about you and your own attitude in general than it does anything else, as does your habit of equating (what you personally find to be) attractive with being a worthwhile/ interesting character.

That you consider him attractive is something else entirely, and maybe something to take up with a therapist.

Hence why I have no qualms about calling out the state of Y'shtola. But by all means go forth and enjoy 10 more years of her. Just don't expect me to keep quiet about stuff like this being injected into the game.

You can have her, Krile, the atrocious femroe from the Myths storyline, all while using the Estiniens and Magnais of the world as jokes.

I will be playing FFXVI where this doesn't happen and I can enjoy heroines that take after Ysayle with Jill.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So be it. I call things as I see them. Whether it's down to our cultural differences or not it was very clear it was an attempt to put down men at the expense of elevating one of the worst female characters in the entire franchise.

"Slay queen!" scenes do not work for me.

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I don't know - the way I see it is that it was all about the approach. I mean, Magnai was pretty arrogant in his approach to her and had (at that point at least) done little to nothing to endear himself to either her or anyone else in the party.

Compare her response to Magnai's attempt to court her, which had all the subtlety and tact of train crash, to her response to Runar - whose approach was far more respectful and probably a by-product of the fact that he'd spent enough time around her to have at least some idea of how to act on his implied romantic feelings toward her.

I mean, I don't particularly like the way she humiliated Magnai, and have always felt that the 'Little sun' scene is highly overrated - but again, she barely knew him and his mouth was clearly in 2nd gear whilst his brain was still in neutral!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So be it. I call things as I see them. Whether it's down to our cultural differences or not it was very clear it was an attempt to put down men at the expense of elevating one of the worst female characters in the entire franchise.

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That's...not the point of that scene at all.

The point is that Y'shtola could clearly see Magnai's rather...childish outlook when it comes to love and shot it down. Which has been a thing in his backstory for a long while now. He has always been written in a way where he is a strong warrior and a good leader. But his whole "Destined soulmate" belief on love has been called out as childish in lore for a while now. All Y'shtola did was basically be INCREDIBLY blunt about it. Which has also been a well established and built thing, that Y'shtola has no tact. She's brutally honest with most people, to a fault. Just look at who her mother figure was and that becomes really obvious.

If anyone tried to """Girlboss""" Magnai, it was Sadu. Who was picking at this deep wound to his pride as a way to goad Magnai into feeding her battle junkie need for more combat. Buuuuut...you can also look at this moment of trying to goad Magnai into a fight as Sadu having a respect for the big guy's combat ability and knowing he'll give her a really good fight. I wish they'd do more with Magnai, such as give us a quest that involves his 5 older sisters in order to give more clear context for WHY he has this outlook on love (Because they are a big part of it.) and even give him a moment to stand up for himself against them. But instead they treat him like the game's Yamcha...which annoys me. For many, many, many reasons.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So be it. I call things as I see them. Whether it's down to our cultural differences or not it was very clear it was an attempt to put down men at the expense of elevating one of the worst female characters in the entire franchise.

"Slay queen!" scenes do not work for me.

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I don't have much love for the Scions but I'd say this is a huge reach. It's not about putting down men in general, just the classical "character with inflated ego gets humiliated" trope.

But in any case, is this really that important for you?
Your insistence on dying on every possible hill is your own downfall. Instead of choosing your fights, you try to argue all of your issues with the game, even those that are incredibly minor (and frankly impossible to defend like the Magnai thing.) The idea is noble but in reality with that attitude you lose permanently your chance of being heard when that truly matters.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

But in any case, is this really that important for you?

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Given how it's infected quite a lot of the franchises and media and I enjoy, yes. In any case if someone agrees or disagrees with my positions that is no one's business but theirs. People need to learn to write better stories and better characters.

I will continue advocating for stuff along the lines of Estinien/Ysayle or Jill/Clive dynamics while the little sun scene enjoyers are free to do the same. From my perspective its as if Lizzo was asked out by someone at Brad Pitt levels of conventional attractiveness and then she proceeded to pull a yas queen slay moment on him. Miss me with this.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I don't know - the way I see it is that it was all about the approach. I mean, Magnai was pretty arrogant in his approach to her and had (at that point at least) done little to nothing to endear himself to either her or anyone else in the party.

Compare her response to Magnai's attempt to court her, which had all the subtlety and tact of train crash, to her response to Runar - whose approach was far more respectful and probably a by-product of the fact that he'd spent enough time around her to have at least some idea of how to act on his implied romantic feelings toward her.

I mean, I don't particularly like the way she humiliated Magnai, and have always felt that the 'Little sun' scene is highly overrated - but again, she barely knew him and his mouth was clearly in 2nd gear whilst his brain was still in neutral!

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Aveyond wishes he could be magnai so of course he's gonna be extra upset. You think magnai being so arrogant would be deterrent to him? Guess again.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The fact that you think Magnai is representative of normal men reveals more about you and your own attitude in general than it does anything else, as does your habit of equating (what you personally find to be) attractive with being a worthwhile/ interesting character.

That you consider him attractive is something else entirely, and maybe something to take up with a therapist.

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Magnai is by no means perfect, but he’s not that bad of a representation. He might be arrogant in some places(although he can back his talk up) and too focused with finding his nhama, but other than that, he’s a strong masculine warlord warrior who commands respect from his people. When it comes to women he’s both very confident and able to take no for an answer. And idk what’s so wrong about finding him attractive disregarding the whole “he’s a half-scalie” thing which never stopped anyone anyway.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

Magnai is by no means perfect, but he’s not that bad of a representation. He might be arrogant in some places(although he can back his talk up) and too focused with finding his nhama, but other than that, he’s a strong masculine warlord warrior who commands respect from his people. When it comes to women he’s both very confident and able to take no for an answer. And idk what’s so wrong about finding him attractive disregarding the whole “he’s a half-scalie” thing which never stopped anyone anyway.

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Certainly never stopped the people who apparently find Y'shtola attractive. They also have a bad habit of headcanoning personality traits onto her she doesn't seem to have in order to flesh out her nonexistent character.

I'd much rather see heroines that actually undergo growth and do more than just provide lore expositions.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

Magnai is by no means perfect, but he’s not that bad of a representation. He might be arrogant in some places(although he can back his talk up) and too focused with finding his nhama, but other than that, he’s a strong masculine warlord warrior who commands respect from his people. When it comes to women he’s both very confident and able to take no for an answer. And idk what’s so wrong about finding him attractive disregarding the whole “he’s a half-scalie” thing which never stopped anyone anyway.

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Able to take no for an answer? That's not exactly the impression I got from that scene. He seemed more like a tantrumming manchild and Sadu had to come to our rescue to distract him.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I don't have much love for the Scions but I'd say this is a huge reach. It's not about putting down men in general, just the classical "character with inflated ego gets humiliated" trope.

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I think Aveyond has a point primarily for the reason of how the reverse situation would be treated. It’s very unlikely that in today’s climate they would allow for a scene where a woman asks a man out and then gets put down by him and this is seen as some cool moment and haha lol her ego got crushed. And even if they did that, which is already extremely unlikely, the community would sure as hell not treat those characters the same way. Just look at all the people who love Sadu and dislike Magnai even though all criticism of one can be applied to another.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I mean, I don't particularly like the way she humiliated Magnai, and have always felt that the 'Little sun' scene is highly overrated - but again, she barely knew him and his mouth was clearly in 2nd gear whilst his brain was still in neutral!

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Nah, it was pretty funny lol. Magnai was written to be arrogant and self-entitled, such that the average player would get a kick out of seeing him knocked down a peg. He's ultimately comic relief. That was true in SB and even truer in EW. And the nature of his (and Sadu's) character means that he's unlikely to evolve beyond that unless the writers contrive some reason to fold him into the main, or at least supporting, cast and bestow him with more than two dimensions.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

all while using the Estiniens and Magnais of the world as jokes.

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Estinien?? Most players love him, though... Even despite his unusually tiny mouth.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Able to take no for an answer? That's not exactly the impression I got from that scene. He seemed more like a tantrumming manchild and Sadu had to come to our rescue to distract him.

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But that’s exactly what he does. He feels awkward at the “little Sun” nickname, understandably so, but never once pushes this any further. In fact it’s almost immediately derailed by Sadu and they get into a fight. That’s hardly a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Nah, it was pretty funny lol. Magnai was written to be arrogant and self-entitled, such that the average player would get a kick out of seeing him knocked down a peg. He's ultimately comic relief. That was true in SB and even truer in EW. And the nature of his (and Sadu's) character means that he's unlikely to evolve beyond that unless the writers contrive some reason to fold him into the main, or at least supporting, cast and bestow him with more than two dimensions.

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I suspect some might argue that the same could be applied to Y'shtola

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

But that’s exactly what he does. He feels awkward at the “little Sun” nickname, understandably so, but never once pushes this any further. In fact it’s almost immediately derailed by Sadu and they get into a fight. That’s hardly a tantrum.

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You and I have vastly different interpretations on that scene and magnai's character in general.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You and I have vastly different interpretations on that scene and magnai's character in general.

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Well, mine comes from the game, yours is apparently from some other source, because in no world repeating the word “little…” with an awkward face is a tantrum.