Tales from the Dawn #4: "A Question of Death" (Jullus)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I had asked the person I was originally talking to to read the section on the Empire, since there have been quite a few leaps about how other people view the Garleans in the setting and what we went up there to do.

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That is rather condescending telling people they have to read what you want before they can comment especially as you won't say what part they need to read.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Neat, neither of you did what I asked. Do what I asked you please.

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What if I don't want to? Just post the relevant parts of your source here as text instead of asking me to go read this post and do your research for you. Like Lauront said here:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

What specifically are you asking us to look at, and why? Copy and paste it here.

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Give us the relevant part of the source and the link so we can check it, don't dump a 30m read on people and expect them to read it. Also, not everyone in life is gonna do as you ask buddy, I'd get used to that.

Regardless, I am going to continue finding the fact that your apparent choice pick for a source is from Tumblr to be hilarious.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Tumblr is still Tumblr, but Mirke's Menagerie is the greatest single source of properly compiled and sorted FFXIV lore I've seen on the internet and Sounsyy has done a really good job of putting it together.

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Cool. I'm not reading a massive Tumblr post because Oatboy here can't specify what he wants us to read. What I've seen so far from it (I skimmed it for like a min just to see what he linked) this Sounsyy also seems biased as heck so not looking too good as an unbiased source of information.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Perhaps, but the author possesses a known bias. The Encylopaedia Eorzea lacks such things. Almanacs are expected to remain impartial, when they do not they lose the respect and trust they require to survive. It's indicative of the perils of the modern internet, that such repositories tend to be less reliable than that which is hand-written due to the considerable vetting and fact-checking processes that such knowledge gets put through before publishing. Tumblr lacks these rigorous safeguards, hence my comparison to Reddit and Wikipedia. Any such information found firmly on the internet and the internet alone is subject to butchering based upon bias rather than the factual and the court of public opinion can influence what is thus written.

In shorthand, I suppose then: Despite it's disjointed nature, I personally would yet sooner pick up a copy of one of the Encylopaedia Eorzeas' Volumes than trust what is written on an unverified, unvetted public domain blog. I cannot trust such a compromised source.

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I will assume you know more about this source than Mikko as what I've seen lines up with what you've said. It doesn't seem like a good balanced source of information.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

How would you know it has a bias, you refused to click on it.

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Have you considered that maybe they've encountered their work before and thus doesn't bother with clicking on their work? I've skimmed it and it doesn't seem like a good source.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

That is rather condescending telling people they have to read what you want before they can comment especially as you won't say what part they need to read.

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If you read the original comment you'd know what section I asked that person to read. I believe it's on page seven of this post. Sentai, didn't read that comment fully and just focused on the fact that its a tumblr link. The original person I gave the link to has not replied back, probably because they are reading it as I asked, maybe who knows.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I will assume you know more about this source than Mikko as what I've seen lines up with what you've said. It doesn't seem like a good balanced source of information.

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le sigh As galling as it is to admit to such, I actually have perused said repository in the past. Hence:

https://i.imgur.com/jL1FJcF.png

I refuse to sully myself with it again. I'll stick to my Encylopaedia Eorzeas, despite my misgivings with them.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

If you read the original comment you'd know what section I asked that person to read. I believe it's on page seven of this post. Sentai, didn't read that comment fully and just focused on the fact that its a tumblr link. The original person I gave the link to has not replied back, probably because they are reading it as I asked, maybe who knows.

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Inaccurate. I honestly didn't deem giving you the time of day a worthwhile endeavour, but my consciousness refused to relinquish its grasp upon my doubt. So... no. I know of the aforementioned bias out of personal experience, and I'd sooner trust the veracity of the direct words of some of the resident "lore experts" here on this side of the forum over another stint amongst the Menagerie. At least it's title is faithful.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I will assume you know more about this source than Mikko as what I've seen lines up with what you've said. It doesn't seem like a good balanced source of information.

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I know that this is getting off-topic but this is kind of funny. How is it biased? What part of a lore compilation blog makes you think that there's some sort of angle? Where do you get your own information from? How do you spread your bias by posting video game dialogue and lore entries from common topics together?

I don't think they're trying to brainwash people into anything.

This is the link we were given:
https://mirkemenagerie.tumblr.com/po...nagerie-update

It leads to a home page where I had to navigate through numerous other sections to get to anything having to do with garlemald. But when I got there, theree were actually two entire separate sections on it. After clicking on the first of the two sections, I was greeted by what can only be described as a text wall longer than the distance from Etheirys to Ultima Thule. What part of this text wall do you want me to read? Which of the two sections is it even in? I'm not reading this entire text wall because Oatmeal of all people demands it. Paste what you want us to read, HERE.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I know that this is getting off-topic but this is kind of funny. How is it biased? What part of a lore compilation blog makes you think that there's some sort of angle? Where do you get your own information from? How do you spread your bias by posting video game dialogue and lore entries from common topics together?

I don't think they're trying to brainwash people into anything.

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When the title for the Garlemald section is "The Sins of Garlemald" (keeping in mind that this is their ENTIRE section on Garlemald, not just what they did as an Empire), the bias there is obvious. Thus I'm not going to bother reading the source as the title has given a bad impression. I am not obligated to read a source if it gives a bad first impression. Oatmeal can show me the exact stuff he's referring to, but I'm not digging through it. If the creator is in fact not biased against certain in-game groups and just has bad titles, they need to work on said titles. However, from what I've heard from Senti so far, it seems like that's not the case.

EDIT: So out of curiosity, I scrolled down to the very bottom of "The Sins of Garlemald: Fall of an Empire" and it's not even current for 6.0!!! IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ENDWALKER STUFF!!! How am I supposed to take this seriously when it's outdated information?! Oatmeal, try and find a CURRENT source next time.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

This is the link we were given:
https://mirkemenagerie.tumblr.com/po...nagerie-update

It leads to a home page where I had to navigate through numerous other sections to get to anything having to do with garlemald. But when I got there, theree were actually two entire separate sections on it. After clicking on the first of the two sections, I was greeted by what can only be described as a text wall longer than the distance from Etheirys to Ultima Thule. What part of this text wall do you want me to read? Which of the two sections is it even in? I'm not reading this entire text wall because Oatmeal of all people demands it. Paste what you want us to read, HERE.



When the title for the Garlemald section is "The Sins of Garlemald" (keeping in mind that this is their ENTIRE section on Garlemald, not just what they did as an Empire), the bias there is obvious. Thus I'm not going to bother reading the source as the title has given a bad impression. I am not obligated to read a source if it gives a bad first impression. Oatmeal can show me the exact stuff he's referring to, but I'm not digging through it. If the creator is in fact not biased against certain in-game groups and just has bad titles, they need to work on said titles. However, from what I've heard from Senti so far, it seems like that's not the case.

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You need to read the whole thing as you know darn near nothing about the topic at hand. I would have specified if I wanted you to read a particular paragraph. Then again when I posted the link you jumped in and wanted nothing to do with it. Now all of a sudden you do? Read the section. then we can talk.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You need to read the whole thing as you know darn near nothing about the topic at hand. I would have specified if I wanted you to read a particular paragraph. Then again when I posted the link you jumped in and wanted nothing to do with it. Now all of a sudden you do? Read the section. then we can talk.

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Oatmeal, I read the story (Garlemald was in fact the section I payed the MOST attention to as it wasn't boring or offensively terrible like the rest of the expac outside of the pre-Zodiark moon and Elpis until they ruined it at the end), I don't need to read a text wall to understand that the nonsense you were spouting was obvious lunacy. I'm not wasting my time reading a text wall on tumblr because you're not capable of reading text boxes in-game. Besides, it's not even current information. IT DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ENDWALKER! LOL! You can't seriously think that this tumblr post is worth anything right? Right? Oh for the love of Zodiar- You seriously, really, actually think that this is a good source? Either post a relevant section of the text or stop wasting my time here. But I don't think you will. You were wrong, you knew you were wrong, and you're posting this nonsense, hoping I wouldn't bother reading the text wall so that you could demand I stop responding until I do. Absolutely hilarious. You've got a serious potential career in comedy my friend, you've got some great material!

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Oatmeal, I read the story (Garlemald was in fact the section I payed the MOST attention to as it wasn't boring or offensively terrible like the rest of the expac outside of the pre-Zodiark moon), I don't need to read a text wall to understand that the nonsense you were spouting was obvious lunacy. I'm not wasting my time reading a text wall on tumblr because you're not capable of reading text boxes in-game. Besides, it's not even current information. IT DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ENDWALKER! LOL! You can't seriously think that this tumblr post is worth anything right? Right? Oh for the love of Zodiar- You seriously, really, actually think that this is a good source? Either post a relevant section of the text or stop wasting my time here. But I don't think you will. You were wrong, you knew you were wrong, and you're posting this nonsense, hoping I wouldn't bother reading the text wall so that you could demand I stop responding until I do. Absolutely hilarious. You've got a serious potential career in comedy my friend, you've got some great material!

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But you didn't read the story. You get so much of it wrong and considering the topic I was talking about with your friend before you jumped in had to do with him believing people would invade the Garleans for their fuel. They won't and the reason why is within that post. But hey you do you. You can barely read my name on your screen. It was foolish of me to ask you to read anything.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

If the creator is in fact not biased against certain in-game groups and just has bad titles, they need to work on said titles. However, from what I've heard from Senti so far, it seems like that's not the case.

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What has Senti actually said about them other than "it is known"? Or does having an edgy signature and posting anime girl reaction images strengthen your credibility on the internet?

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys. Does that mean they're biased against their own creation?

You play as the "Warrior of Light" and fight against masked soldiers with strong fascist aesthetic, led by those who personally kill their own officers and order their army to shoot giant fantasy cannons at their own troops/bases, and who were set up by a literal shadowy figure with the specific goal to end the world. Are we supposed to tiptoe around words like "antagonist" or "villain" or "sins" because it might upset people from a fictional empire in a video game?

Yes, tell us more about this villain faction the "hero" faction is currently actively engaged in assisting, whose empire has fallen apart and whose worst leaders have already been ousted. This group we have now been shown conclusively to be made up of ordinary people that just want the right to live out their lives, same as anyone else. Of course, we were told as early as ARR that most imperial citizens and soldiers weren't terrible. SB and Shadowbringers further back this up.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

What has Senti actually said about them other than "it is known"? Or does having an edgy signature and posting anime girl reaction images strengthen your credibility on the internet?

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys. Does that mean they're biased against their own creation?

You play as the "Warrior of Light" and fight against masked soldiers with strong fascist aesthetic, led by those who personally kill their own officers and order their army to shoot giant fantasy cannons at their own troops/bases, and who were set up by a literal shadowy figure with the specific goal to end the world. Are we supposed to tiptoe around words like "antagonist" or "villain" or "sins" because it might upset people from a fictional empire in a video game?

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Considering how this whole argument started out of a concern of retaliation against civilians who'd committed no "fascist actions" and soldiers press-ganged into service against their will and indoctrinated from birth after their nations having been conquered, I fail to see how this angle of attack is warranted. Obi-Wan called, Mikko. He wants the moral high ground back. Also, we know it threw you off the last time you tried to stand on it.

Additionally, the Fora Knights take up the Telophoroi's mantle and cause the very moment Venat gets called a "villain" or "antagonist" so I honestly struggle to see where this sudden chastisement is coming from. Or it's worth.

As for me, I will NEVER take accusations of fascism, antagonism, and villainization of my favoured factions seriously so long as the Fora Knights fail to uphold their knightly obligations and slander their favoured factions by considering them above reproach. To use another Star Wars quote:

"From my point of view, the Scions and the Warrior of Light/the Eorzean Alliance/Hydaelyn and her sycophantic mongrel hounds are evil!"

Edit: It occurs to me I've failed to articulate this. The "bias" the source has is the same as this forum's worst offenders. The usual anti-Ascian, anti-Garlean, and anti-Ancient derangement so many are afflicted by, and the accompanying incapability to hold the "good guys" to the same ethical standards. This frankly goes double for the Menagerie, since they have yet to update for the revelations capstoned in 6.0. It is highly suspect that if and when it DOES, that the omniprescient bias will only warp to become ever stronger and more deluded. A betrayal of ideals, just like so many on here who were once so fervent in their beliefs that villainy could NEVER be justified through mass slaughter.

If such delusions were present in the Menagerie now, I truly don't expect the pre-established tangent to suddenly veto and change post-Endwalker. That's not the way this fandom's rigid, conservational pattern of rational thought WORKS.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

No, Senti's credibility comes from 1) previous discussions I've been in with Senti where they were very knowledgeable, and 2) their statements match up with what I'm seeing on that site. As for you, I don't know you that well and I haven't really seen many knowledgeable things come from you, not to mention what you've been saying is not only not supported but countered from what I'm seeing on that site, so I don't trust you over Senti. I'm not reading that text wall so I'm just going to have to trust one of you on the matter.. Senti might be wrong but I'll take a chance on them over you /shrug.

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To be fair to all involved in this rapidly rising onerous debate, I have been wrong in the past. Many times, in fact. The generally accepted behaviour on these forums is to double down and be stubbornly assured of one's own righteousness. This is something I cannot countenance, and an action I refuse to partake of. Far more wise, to admit one's own wrongdoing and MOVE ON. Or..... agree to disagree.

https://i.imgur.com/D8YOciB.jpg

~I know how much it pains you to do so~

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

But you didn't read the story.

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You were wrong and are now trying to use the "You just didn't read the story" excuse that's been done to death.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You get so much of it wrong and considering the topic I was talking about with your friend before you jumped in had to do with him believing people would invade the Garleans for their fuel.

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Me? Friends with Theodric? Have I finally gotten into the cool kids club? I did it ma and pa! I did it! I'm an official Zodiark Trancer now! :D

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

They won't and the reason why is within that post.

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Cool. Still not reading the text wall.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You can barely read my name on your screen. It was foolish of me to ask you to read anything.

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You take your name way too seriously Oatmeal. Besides, how are you going to tell me that I can't read your name when you spelled Gridania wrong in your profile's 'location'? (and still haven't fixed it lol) I suppose it was foolish of me to ask you to spell anything.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

What has Senti actually said about them other than "it is known"? Or does having an edgy signature and posting anime girl reaction images strengthen your credibility on the internet?

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No, Senti's credibility comes from 1) previous discussions I've been in with Senti where they were very knowledgeable, and 2) their statements match up with what I'm seeing on that site. As for you, I don't know you that well and I haven't really seen many knowledgeable things come from you, not to mention what you've been saying is not only not supported but countered from what I'm seeing on that site, so I don't trust you over Senti. I'm not reading that text wall so I'm just going to have to trust one of you on the matter.. Senti might be wrong but I'll take a chance on them over you /shrug.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys. Does that mean they're biased against their own creation?

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Except they're not just faceless people, they're people with history that goes further back than their imperial era. Now to be fair, that site isn't updated for Endwalker (which is a detriment to it's credibility), but labeling their entire history (even excluding anything from Endwalker) as "The Sins of Garlemald" sounds disingenuous and I'm not going to bother reading a text wall when that's the title. They can change the title to something more neutral if they want me to treat it as a good source of information.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Yes, tell us more about this villain faction the "hero" faction is currently actively engaged in assisting, whose empire has fallen apart and whose worst leaders have already been ousted. This group we have now been shown conclusively to be made up of ordinary people that just want the right to live out their lives, same as anyone else. Of course, we were told as early as ARR that most imperial citizens and soldiers weren't terrible. SB and Shadowbringers further back this up.

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That's my problem with the section's title. It assumes there is nothing more to Garlemald or Garleans than faceless shadow people who are evil cause why not.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys.

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Insofar as their stance regarding the game's antagonists is concerned, they've had the likes of this to say on the subject:

"The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain."

Source: https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

Furthermore, this is a game that serves a global audience. Many players are from many different cultures, backgrounds, belief systems and have varied life experiences. With that in mind, different elements of the setting are going to resonate more with some players over others. The development team are well aware of that and I don't doubt that if push came to shove, they'd encourage players to come to their own conclusions on issues as complex as some of the events that take place in this game's story.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Now to be fair, that site isn't updated for Endwalker (which is a detriment to it's credibility)

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It was updated today because there's updates from the new Tales from the Dawn in there.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore, this is a game that serves a global audience. Many players are from many different cultures, backgrounds, belief systems and have varied life experiences. With that in mind, different elements of the setting are going to resonate more with some players over others. The development team are well aware of that and I don't doubt that if push came to shove, they'd encourage players to come to their own conclusions on issues as complex as some of the events that take place in this game's story.

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If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

It was updated today because there's updates from the new Tales from the Dawn in there.

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I checked and it wasn't. And if it's in a different section, that would be necessary information rather than just linking the entire site including non-Garlean sections. But regardless, I'm not checking again as there seems to be nothing of worth to be found there anyways.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Obi-Wan called, Mikko. He wants the moral high ground back. Also, we know it threw you off the last time you tried to stand on it.

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Ok, as someone who is not familiar with Mikko, I am interested in seeing this lol

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Additionally, the Fora Knights take up the Telophoroi's mantle and cause the very moment Venat gets called a "villain" or "antagonist" so I honestly struggle to see where this sudden chastisement is coming from. Or it's worth.

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These people can only see the story in terms of black and white. The Garleans as a race are purely evil while Venat/Genocydaelyn are purely good according to them. Thus when the topic of the abuse the Garleans received pre-empire is brought up, many choose to respond with "Good, they deserved it.", even when the empire they loathe so much hadn't been a thing yet.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

It occurs to me I've failed to articulate this. The "bias" the source has is the same as this forum's worst offenders. The usual anti-Ascian, anti-Garlean, and anti-Ancient derangement so many are afflicted by, and the accompanying incapability to hold the "good guys" to the same ethical standards.

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I figured that from the title "The Sins of Garlemald", and the lack of similar titles for sections on other nations.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

To be fair to all involved in this rapidly rising onerous debate, I have been wrong in the past. Many times, in fact.

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Even so, I'd rather trust the one who I know to be wrong sometimes and willing to admit it when they are, than the one I know nothing about. (Mikko)

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

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I think that quote is specifically about Zenos, though the wording is confusing. Anyway, it is true that the Garlean Empire and Military as a organizing political force is fairly unambigously treated as a villianous force by the narrative.

Yoshi-P's quote about both sides of a given conflict having value is not a license for us to turn around and go, "yeah, I guess the genocidal, fascist empire trying to take over has a good point about might making right."

I feel like people are not distinguishing between the Garlean Empire, a fairly unambious evil, which was literally built by an ancient wizard to cause as much destruction and chaos in the world as possible - and the Garlean people, some of the first victims of that Empire.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I checked and it wasn't. And if it's in a different section, that would be necessary information rather than just linking the entire site including non-Garlean sections. But regardless, I'm not checking again as there seems to be nothing of worth to be found there anyways.

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ctrl+F Tales from the Dawn

If you won't click link:

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Tales from the Dawn - A Question of Death: “Jullus would offer no gods-bound prayers as an Eorzean might[...]”

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I think that quote is specifically about Zenos, though the wording is confusing.

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The last one was about Zenos, The first was the general story blurb for Stormblood and the second was about Garlemald as a whole*.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

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That's just typical marketing talk at work and it's speaking from the perspective of the player characters who do not necessarily have the full picture for any given situation and have been specifically gifted with various perks to conveniently deny them the necessity to go down a similar path themselves when it comes to protecting their loved ones.

Yoshi-P has also specifically commented on how Garlemald is viewed by some players and the protagonists alike:

“They may be commanders or generals or they might be fighting against soldiers from the Empire, in those cases, the player would be facing those people as the enemy and those people would have masks on, so we wouldn’t really see them as a person but we just perceive them as the enemy.

“So that is one thing in the background that we’ve had in the background up until now and that is just a given of how their position was in the story. These people are from a completely different country, as a player and them, we have no relationship between us, no linking with blood or anything like that. So we might have seen them in the same way as we see a monster, so they were just an enemy.”

“As you’re walking through Garlemald, you might see there is a highway that’s been destroyed or there might be a park and the ground which is starting to collapse, so there are these signs of huge destruction there, but we wanted to show those people who live there had a very similar life to how we grew up,” Yoshida continued.

“So maybe the kids in Garlemald, they went to the park and they had a slide and they used to play with the slide just as we did when we were growing up as kids. It was very important for us to show, to express, how those people had their daily lives and we placed a lot of importance on actually thinking about how we would express that when the player finds themselves visiting this city and going there to see what happens there.”

Source: https://www.nme.com/features/gaming-...oshida-3068707

It's pretty common for many stories to introduce antagonists who the protagonists oppose only to reveal that in many ways, they're not too different and they have their own ideals/dreams/complexities at play.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

ctrl+F Tales from the Dawn

If you won't click link:

The last one was about Zenos, The first was the general story blurb for Stormblood and the second was about Gaius I think.

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Finally someone stops expecting others to read the entire text wall just for a paragraph of text. Congratulations, you've achieved what was impossible for Oatmeal's several posts, all in one simple post. Thank you.

Alright, this section does seem to be updated (the fall of the empire one doesn't seem to be, this is why linking the exact page is so important btw!) but I would still like Oatmeal to point out which exact portion of the text I'm supposed to be looking at. I'm not reading this entire text wall for the one sentence Oatmeal wants me to find.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's pretty common for many stories to introduce antagonists who the protagonists oppose only to reveal that in many ways, they're not too different and they have their own ideals/dreams/complexities at play.

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Indeed. For example, if you asked me what I thought about the Ascians pre-Shadowbringers, I'd tell you that they're just one dimensional baddies. If you ask me the same question now, well... my favorite character in all of fiction is among their number.

I really enjoyed that story. Did not expect Jullus to be the character we follow, but I think this may be my favourite of the current bunch. I especially loved the final few paragraphs, very beautiful. I think It helps to show we are not done with Garlemald yet. Perhaps not in the MSQ (Unless Corvos is where we are headed in 7.0) but in a larger side quest perhaps. I would love to see the nation rise again, just without the colonialism or the shadow of the Ascians pulling their strings. They could still be a proud nation of people who can bring their Magitek to the world not as conquers, but to help their fellow citizens of the Star. I do love a good redemption story, and it would be a shame if they are just largely ignored going foward.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I think that quote is specifically about Zenos, though the wording is confusing. Anyway, it is true that the Garlean Empire and Military as a organizing political force is fairly unambigously treated as a villianous force by the narrative.

Yoshi-P's quote about both sides of a given conflict having value is not a license for us to turn around and go, "yeah, I guess the genocidal, fascist empire trying to take over has a good point about might making right."

I feel like people are not distinguishing between the Garlean Empire, a fairly unambious evil, which was literally built by an ancient wizard to cause as much destruction and chaos in the world as possible - and the Garlean people, some of the first victims of that Empire.

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The inability or at least not wanting to distinguish criticisms of two things that are tied to each other is a common thing of this forum. I doubt any distinction will be made any time soon. Heck even when people try to have a discussion about it there are those who will reply and just lump them back together and cry about how mean the opposition is. While calling people names and whatnot.

I’m still mulling over the significance of Hypatia as one of the central Imperial women and that I’m probably reading way too much into it.

Sounsyy/mirkeManagerie is literally the biggest lore nerd I've ever met, seeing people reject a link to her stuff solely on 'oH bUt It'S TuMbLr' is sad. Yeah, you're allowed to have issues with the fact every single post of hers is a goddamn encyclopedia volume because she is ALWAYS posting receipts and tends to go for larger post topics instead of narrowing the focus, but if someone tells you to go for a specific section (as exactly happened when posting that link) then that issue is basically nothing, she's very easy to learn from if you're inclined to listen. Rejecting it because you don't like the blogging site they use is just childish.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I really enjoyed that story. Did not expect Jullus to be the character we follow, but I think this may be my favourite of the current bunch. I especially loved the final few paragraphs, very beautiful. I think It helps to show we are not done with Garlemald yet. Perhaps not in the MSQ (Unless Corvos is where we are headed in 7.0) but in a larger side quest perhaps. I would love to see the nation rise again, just without the colonialism or the shadow of the Ascians pulling their strings. They could still be a proud nation of people who can bring their Magitek to the world not as conquers, but to help their fellow citizens of the Star. I do love a good redemption story, and it would be a shame if they are just largely ignored going foward.

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Again, I bet the Garleans are coming up in various sidequests; not only have they already sown those seeds through the role quest capstone, it would also help in giving them a space to flesh out the Garleans' story while not letting it force its way center-stage. Certainly, Garlemald can make great use of such a stage, but if the angle for 6.0 is indeed something of a fresh start for the story, the writers might be inclined to focusing on a story without a lot of the baggage of the game before it. Same reason we're not gonna have 6.0's kickoff be a Rejoining or something tied to minutia of the whole cosmological side of things; if they want 6.0 onward to define itself and stand on its own, perhaps to the point of being a whole new jumping-on point, you don't want to make its entry point 'okay time to understand the entire history of Eorzea's relationship with Garlemald because it's all complicated and all important'.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I really enjoyed that story. Did not expect Jullus to be the character we follow, but I think this may be my favourite of the current bunch. I especially loved the final few paragraphs, very beautiful. I think It helps to show we are not done with Garlemald yet. Perhaps not in the MSQ (Unless Corvos is where we are headed in 7.0) but in a larger side quest perhaps. I would love to see the nation rise again, just without the colonialism or the shadow of the Ascians pulling their strings. They could still be a proud nation of people who can bring their Magitek to the world not as conquers, but to help their fellow citizens of the Star. I do love a good redemption story, and it would be a shame if they are just largely ignored going foward.

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I still think there is hope they make it back into the MSQ. Hopefully soon after we wrap up the Void business. I'm not sure where I'd want 7.0 to go as I feel as though Corvos sounds interesting they have been dangling a certain home of kangaroo, hippos, and what is left of Bahamut and Timat's brood for a few years. Hopefully this dip into Jullus's pov means we won't have to wait too long to get back there and see what has been going on since 6.0's end.

That was a really nice side story, i'm glad we're getting Garlemald content here, because the game is pretty lacking about it for the moment.
The story makes me hopeful that there is still story to tell about this nation, and i hope it won't be sidelined too quickly.

I'm especially interested in the situation in the provinces of Garlemald, some may rightfully take their independence, but i'm curious to see if some won't continue to side with the empire.
My hope would be to get a Garlemald representative, like Larsa from FFXII, who was the heir of the empire in that game. He would accompany the main characters, see the world, understand what is expected of him, what he should do for the people and end up leading the empire.
I know the role quest talk about Garlemald ending the royalty, but i would still like for the empire to continue existing but to redeem itself.

There's a lot of potential, especially considering the empire has done a lot of horrible things to the subjugated provinces, and they would feel righteous in not wanting to stay in the empire or even actively antagonize it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Again, I bet the Garleans are coming up in various sidequests; not only have they already sown those seeds through the role quest capstone, it would also help in giving them a space to flesh out the Garleans' story while not letting it force its way center-stage. Certainly, Garlemald can make great use of such a stage, but if the angle for 6.0 is indeed something of a fresh start for the story, the writers might be inclined to focusing on a story without a lot of the baggage of the game before it. Same reason we're not gonna have 6.0's kickoff be a Rejoining or something tied to minutia of the whole cosmological side of things; if they want 6.0 onward to define itself and stand on its own, perhaps to the point of being a whole new jumping-on point, you don't want to make its entry point 'okay time to understand the entire history of Eorzea's relationship with Garlemald because it's all complicated and all important'.

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Yeah I very much agree. It was the Job capstone that convinced me that the Garleand story was not over, and a shot story like this just convinces me more. A side quest-like story would actually be the better place to explore their rebuilding I think, as it would let them explore the topic at a slower pace, given how MSQ's are more bombastic in nature. Plus as you say the empathises on the next chapter being a new adventure makes me think Garlemald or any large story-beat from the last decade, is unlikely. I do wonder if they will actually make 7.0 a 'jump in point' for new players. I think that is possible.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I still think there is hope they make it back into the MSQ. Hopefully soon after we wrap up the Void business. I'm not sure where I'd want 7.0 to go as I feel as though Corvos sounds interesting they have been dangling a certain home of kangaroo, hippos, and what is left of Bahamut and Timat's brood for a few years. Hopefully this dip into Jullus's pov means we won't have to wait too long to get back there and see what has been going on since 6.0's end.

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Haha yeah, if I was a betting person then I would put my gil on Meracydia being the location of 7.0 (With the New World being second, Corvos being third and another Shard being an outliner) We may see them again in the MSQ, but as Cleretic said I think its gonna be more in side content.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, you're allowed to have issues with the fact every single post of hers is a goddamn encyclopedia volume because she is ALWAYS posting receipts and tends to go for larger post topics instead of narrowing the focus, but if someone tells you to go for a specific section (as exactly happened when posting that link) then that issue is basically nothing, she's very easy to learn from if you're inclined to listen.

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Telling people to read a text wall instead of specifying which part of said text wall is relevant isn't acceptable, even if which text wall out the list of text walls is specified. Not that Oatmeal specified which text wall out of the two Garlean ones to begin with. It's simply not fair to expect other people to devote a large portion of time to read a massive text wall when you could easily just point out what's important or give a synopsis, but Oatmeal refused to do so. But that's the problem, he didn't want to do the research himself, he just posted a link to the main page of the equivalent of FFXIV Wikipedia and said "figure it out". I'd assume that if I did that to you, you'd most likely dismiss that as that's a stupid thing to ask someone to do. We're not talking about a link to a one page essay. He linked us to the main page of the blog, gave us nearly no directions on which of the two pages was the correct one, (and I'd like to assume he wasn't stupid enough to assume anyone was willing to read not one but two text walls) and then demanded that we read the entirety of the massive text wall(s) with no indication on which sections were important.

And when asked if he could provide a specific portion of the text walls on Garlemald...

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I would have specified if I wanted you to read a particular paragraph.

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So no, we were not told to go to a specific section under the Garlemald pages. This was the equivalent of demanding that someone watch every cutscene in Shadowbringers when discussing lore about Il Mheg. Why not just specify which cutscene is relevant to your point? Oh wait, it wasn't about providing sources relevant to his points, he just wanted to waste our time.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Rejecting it because you don't like the blogging site they use is just childish.

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I rejected it due to 1) not being given a specific area to read, 2) the titles showing an underlying bias, and 3) statements from someone I trust far more than you or Mikko. (I'm not familiar with Mikko and I've found you to be a very unreliable source of information) The link leading to Tumblr of all sites was just a hilarious bit of icing on the cake. You can't deny that being on Tumblr is going to make it harder to be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Haha yeah, if I was a betting person then I would put my gil on Meracydia being the location of 7.0

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Unless the void storyline lasts a lot longer than we expect, (I doubt it will) Meracydia is the most likely option.

I'm really struggling see how that tumblr link is supposed to be biased. by all accounts, it appears to be an enormous compilation of direct quotes from the game, enclyopedia Eorzea and other sources.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I'm really struggling see how that tumblr link is supposed to be biased. by all accounts, it appears to be an enormous compilation of direct quotes from the game, enclyopedia Eorzea and other sources.

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I fail to see what is wrong too. I was thinking the author of the page would intermingle their opinions into the lore, but as far as i can tell everything posted there is sourced from the encyclopedia and official sources and use proper quotations.

That site did a nice job to put all these informations in a easy way to navigate, i think it is reliable enough.

Nothing inherently wrong with the Tumblr post, especially considering most Tumblrinas that are lolworthy moved over to Twitter anyway. Sounsyy's blog is grand.

It's the way in which was used, kind of like some bizarre appeal to authority cudgel. Backreading in context, it being linked almost seemed to be a non sequitur in general to the debate being had.

All in all though, I'm sad that we're arguing again. There really has been almost nothing productive in the last 8 or so pages, and the few folks who are just sharing their earnest opinions have been drowned out by the squabbling.

Also, something I take issue with is several people, notably Sentiofhoukai, Abismiliard, and a few others claiming that the Ilsabard contingent was full of Eorzeans on the quest for revenge. That's outlandishly false. The entire contingent was selected to be people who were willing to put aside or had no personal feelings. Hell, we even had the voiced cutscene where the former conscripted Ala Mhigan hands Jullus a hot drink.

If you're going to come in and fling mud, and settle all your scores, then at least be correct. I know we've basically become a Debate forum rather than a Lore forum, but you can at least get blatant things like that right. You're literally just giving the people you don't like ammunition.

But clearly these are wasted words. Y'all are in here to butt heads. Far be it from me to be able to stop you.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

the Ilsabard contingent was full of Eorzeans on the quest for revenge. That's outlandishly false. The entire contingent was selected to be people who were willing to put aside or had no personal feelings. Hell, we even had the voiced cutscene where the former conscripted Ala Mhigan hands Jullus a hot drink.

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if I remember correctly it was said even during the scene inside the royal Palace of Ala Mhigo (before going there) by Lyse that while there were people who were glad and thought they got what they deserved and that there were also just alot of people that didn't care about what happened. The ones they chose were the ones who were willing to help. So yea they weren't out for revenge and that hot soup/drink scene always makes me cry.

Tumblr's got a great strength in being a blogging site with actual discoverability, it should also be said, and I believe is why Sounsyy uses it. Write the best Wordpress blog any human being has ever laid their eyes on, and it's actually not gonna do anything by itself because the only way for people to find it is to put out word on other platforms, whereas a Tumblr post can get popular through Tumblr alone. Forms of interactions like asks are also something not many other competitors have. And all this gets even more useful if you're writing for a community or fanbase that's already on Tumblr to some degree, which has been true for FFXIV for quite a while; most of the FFXIV community's favorite characters happen to have a very close overlap with the sorts of characters the general Tumblr userbase loves, often for many of the same reasons.

All of that is largely unrelated to the topic of the actual thread, though, except for the part where Zenos is absolutely one of those shared favorite characters, as well as a few other Garlean and Garlean-adjacent characters. Weirdly not Jullus, although opinions are rarely strong enough about him for me to tell exactly why. Maybe because his story is genuinely dark and uncomfortable to a degree that very few characters have; when I saw he was the POV character for the final story I actually felt a pang of dread, because my assumption was that they were going to do a retelling of the night of the tempering. And even just the cutscene where he described that night was kind of upsetting to me, I would've really struggled to read a more direct story about it. Amazing writing, not exactly a space people tend to like playing in as writers or readers.

This story wasn't just good because it was entirely new information, it was good because it was a story I was able to read recreationally without taking a few breaks to breathe deeply and stare at a wall until I felt like my stomach was stationary again.

The amusing thing is that the person whom he linked it to runs their own Garlean-themed tumblr page. Perhaps he was just being diplomatic. Does it really matter, though? It just looks like a citation list of quotes and EE references on a subject-by-subject level.

Speaking of which, it's probably high time that we got another lore based text, even if it ends up being a new periodical.

Either way, this was a really nice little story. There's a good part of Ilsabard missing from the map, and I'm really hoping that we'll get to explore it in depth before moving southward towards Meracydia. I'm really interested in Corvos and Dalmasca, especially from some of the hints dropped through the Bozja storyline. And I do think that teaming up the twins with Jullus would be a great way of doing it.

I appreciate Jullus getting a story, but for some reason I found this one kind of awkward to read.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Speaking of which, it's probably high time that we got another lore based text, even if it ends up being a new periodical.

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Presuming you mean a physical book like the Encyclopedia Eorzea, I wouldn't be surprised if one is actually in the works, although it might possibly wait a couple patches. From what I've been told in conversation with people who actually know how S-E works, the Encyclopedias are basically composed during downtime; a bunch of it is actually about collating already existing writing they had to do for stuff like website blurbs, worldbuilding docs and the like, but putting it all together and editing it all to be a single cohesive text (including writing all the stuff that wasn't already written) is still a big job, and it's one that they have to do on top of writing... you know, the actual game at the pace we expect. So if the writing for the game itself is currently fairly heavy, you know they can't have much time to work on any extras.

However, it does seem like all the various weights from Shadowbringers and Endwalker have been lifted, and I'd consider the cookbook and Namazu picture book to be good signs; they're clearly free enough to do some non-essential writing, even if it's been small.

If I were them, though, I'd probably wait before announcing it, at least until Cagnazzo, Rubicante and Golbez show their deals. That'd allow the first three volumes to go all the way through the first 'arc' of the game, making for a nice complete package.

Yeah, I'm mainly talking about an EE Volume 3, although I wouldn't mind if they changed up the nomenclature going into the next story arc. I remember FFVIII having a questline where you have to collect periodicals (Weapons Monthly, Combat Kings, etc.) and I wouldn't mind if they changed the aesthetic away from an 'Encyclopedia' to a different design aesthetic going into the next story arc just to make things fun. I'll probably dip into their artbooks in the interim while I wait. Anything Voidsent or Lucavi related is going to grab my attention really quickly though.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Also, something I take issue with is several people, notably Sentiofhoukai, Abismiliard, and a few others claiming that the Ilsabard contingent was full of Eorzeans on the quest for revenge. That's outlandishly false. The entire contingent was selected to be people who were willing to put aside or had no personal feelings. Hell, we even had the voiced cutscene where the former conscripted Ala Mhigan hands Jullus a hot drink.

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To be fair, I don't think that's quite accurate in terms of what she was claiming. Senti's claim was:

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Absimiliard has the right of it, here. When you consider just how many Eorzeans wished to link up with the Ilsabard contingent for the sole purpose of revenge-driven murder, I cannot begin to worry for those non-soldiers in regions no longer protected by the nation of Garlemald and it's resources. Keep in mind, that places like Corvos, Dalmasca, and Bozja etc. are places where the Eorzean Alliance and the various city-states don't really have any form of direct control/influence over what happens there. That's not even mentioning places further out into Ilsabard we haven't even seen yet. Historically, those who were apart of now-broken Empires tend to be treated extremely poorly by those who saw themselves as oppressed. I just how dynamic of who is the oppressor does not change, as it has already once before in Eorzean history. We all know from Endwalker alone just how little the protagonists take the past into proper introspection when decided how to deal with the travails of today.

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Granted, it's a bit unclear, but she clarified it here (and also here):

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Nice work being a pretentious one, little Sylph. Your information is still yet inaccurate, however. I do believe it would be in your best interest to go back and watch those cutscenes, since you'd realize that Lyse mentions that the formation of the Ilsabard contingent was initially hamstrung by the necessity of the onerous process of weeding out those who merely wanted to go take bloody revenge on what they saw as their oppressors and those who genuinely wanted to help those who would be ultimately revealed as ailing, freezing, close-to-death victims of Zenos' and Fandaniel's monstrous villainy.

For as bad as Endwalker was with nuance, ironically the criminally short Garlemald segment was one of the few points in the storyline that lacked that absent nuance.

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Sadly, I lost a good bit of the text I had saved just before Elpis, so having to rely on saved screenshots, I'm not sure what she's specifically referring to, as all I can identify is this and this, which suggests at the least that many did turn down overtures to join with the Ilsabard Contingent (and yes, that is because they see Garlemald as the enemy), and that this opposition was strong enough in both Ishgard and Ala Mhigo to limit how much Aymeric and Raubahn could do. In any case, her claim relates to those it turned down, not the Ilsabard Contingent itself. Insofar as the claim can be taken as "Eorzea as a whole is far from unanimous on this goal" or "some may wish to take vengeance against Garlemald"? I think that's a fair reading of these sources. I'll leave it to her to comment on whether she has another source in mind.

As for Absimiliard, which Senti was basing her post on:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It will definitely be a long road for the Garleans, whatever the case. Their inability to use aether is liable to make them very appealing targets for their neighbors now that so much of their magitek is gone.

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He is simply stating that Garlemald being left in a vulnerable position leaves it exposed to potentially hostile neighbours, which led some to dispute that it had anything valuable to take, which is not the case. The rest of his posts seem to be in the same vein. Considering the frosty relations Garlemald has always had with its immediate neighbours, and the fact that there are also elements within Eorzea outwith the Ilsabard Contingent, and other provinces that see the Garleans (understandably) in none too favourable a light, this point is not unreasonable. Mal then saw it fit to chime in and claim that ceruleum is not valued outside of Garlemald, which as I stated, is patently false. He then directed us to a site that has a massive dump of lore resources (which, whatever its issues, is at least pointing to lore resources I recognise as canon), and when asked to clarify what specifically he is asking for other posters to consult, did not specify. I often find that this poster simply dismisses textual evidence out of hand, without specifying any valid reasons for doing so.

So yeah, unfortunate that the thread turned to a shouting match, but I think let's be fair here that that wasn't quite what Senti or Absimiliard were saying.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Also, something I take issue with is several people, notably Sentiofhoukai, Abismiliard, and a few others claiming that the Ilsabard contingent was full of Eorzeans on the quest for revenge. That's outlandishly false. The entire contingent was selected to be people who were willing to put aside or had no personal feelings. Hell, we even had the voiced cutscene where the former conscripted Ala Mhigan hands Jullus a hot drink.

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Care to quote anywhere I've said the Ilsabard Contingent was full of people out for revenge? :)

It's not about the Ilsabard Contingent. They're, as you said, the scant few willing to give the Garleans a chance, although not all of them are quite so happy to be there. Just about everyone outside of them ranges from completely indifferent to thirsty for revenge. The Garleans are de-fanged former conquerors sitting on top of a high concentration of one of the most valuable resources on Etheirys, and their neighbors already showed a high willingness to attack them long before the empire formed. With their diminished numbers and loss of weapons and tools, they're back to being prime targets.

There's plenty of in-game text and peripherals to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

So yeah, unfortunate that the thread turned to a shouting match, but I think let's be fair here that that wasn't quite what Senti or Absimiliard were saying.

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I would have preferred that it didn't turn into what it did, but that's what happens when one side of a debate links the home page of FFXIV Wikipedia and demands that nobody responds until they read the entire thing.