"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I\\'ll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren\\'t fixated on numbers

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I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

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Originally Posted by Gararr

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

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I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I am sure they do extensive testing and don't have any issues clearing the fights
however it really rubs me the wrong way that they pretend as if the dev/tester prog experience is the same as the player prog experience
you cannot and will never convince me that dsr was cleared during testing without the use of dev tools to checkpoint each phase and prog each independently

meanwhile actual players must always go back to phase 2 each wipe.
yes, you didn't need 3rd party tools to clear dsr, you had 1st party tools that are a million times more cheaty and powerful than any 3rd party tool

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They also play on 0-1 ping on a localized server where clipping GCD's does not exist, therefore having slightly higher damage output than the regular player.

It's the same issue that arised in FFXI when Absolute Virtue was unkillable unless you used an illegitimate method that the dev team would abuse you for doing (And then patch it out of the game).
They tried to prove the playerbase wrong by showing the correct way of dealing with mechanics, while on 0-1 ping. THis caused an outrage and people clearly pointed out that in an ideal 1 ping setting, it was viable.

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Originally Posted by Gararr

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

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I used to feel FFLogs was beneficial, but have become more and more jaded recently by my interactions with certain aspects of the high-end community. Ideas of player skill and worth have become too heavily associated with parse percentiles. Players are pressured into this misguided value system, and some of the side effects have been.. really unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I used to feel FFLogs was beneficial, but have become more and more jaded recently by my interactions with certain aspects of the high-end community. Ideas of player skill and worth have become too heavily associated with parse percentiles. Players are pressured into this misguided value system, and some of the side effects have been.. really unpleasant.

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The only good way to use fflogs is for comparisons against yourself.

There will always bee a bottom 1%. You could have the difference bettwen the top 1% and bottom 1% be 100 dps, and there would still be gray parses.

Sometimes the difference between getting blue and getting orange is only a few hundred dps.

People only focus on the % and color and don't understand meanings. It's why I hate the score graphs and such people always post.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

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Logs are only used for Savage level content because, as this most recent tier has shown, you kind of need to know how your party is overall matching up to the content for early clears. Sure I guess Extremes too to an extent, but the DPS checks in Extreme are very lax. It's not like people are tracking logs on your 12th run of the fell court of Troia.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Logs are only used for Savage level content because, as this most recent tier has shown, you kind of need to know how your party is overall matching up to the content for early clears. Sure I guess Extremes too to an extent, but the DPS checks in Extreme are very lax. It's not like people are tracking logs on your 12th run of the fell court of Troia.

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I'm not exactly sure what your point is. That doesn't really change what I'm saying tbf

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

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Originally Posted by Gararr

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

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https://c.tenor.com/odyVsZbC-OYAAAAC...th-why-not.gif

I stand by my notion that fflogs, just like anything else, has harmless properties when applied right, but disastrous properties when applied poorly. XIV is a blast when you get to have fun, and for a lot of people, being able to improve, minmax, optimize and formulate strategies to clear content faster and in effective ways to minimize issues is fun. XIV is an uncomfortable mess if people harass others over damage and actively seek to ruin peoples' experiences based on them alone.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

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And this is where you lost me. I think you conflate "clearing" with "optimizing", which isn't the same. You can clear content but have had a horrid experience because no one around you knew what they were doing and had awful reactions and made poor decisions. I too run casual content for the hell of it. I was one of the weirdoes who spammed Return to Ivalice and enjoyed it. I still do it! I love getting Orbonne and I find it funny when people sigh that it's hard. I went on PF for Extremes before because they were fun and I just wanted a clear. But throughout it all, I kept in mind that there was a minimum amount of effort required from me on a group, and a little bit of optimization didn't hurt anyone. Having people keeping logs around and telling me if what I did succeeded or not really helped.

Logs aren't invalidated because you think you're doing fine and can clear stuff. Not everyone has that outlook. You shouldn't get in their way as much as you have the right of not being bothered by them. Logs are validated when they can help people understand how their job works, if there's anything they need to tweak, and where it's best to optimize vs where it's not. Balance is never done "on a gut feeling". No matter how much logs "don't matter".

Savage tiers would die so much faster and subs dropped so much quicker without fflogs there to provide metacontent after the fact. If we, of course, assume that in lieu of FFLogs there'd be nothing, speedkilling and parse running communities wouldn't exist; people would have little reason to pug with strangers outside of their inner circle to improve their personal performance in their off time.

Midare has the right of it imo. There's nuance. No tool brings strictly good things as tools are what the community does with them.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Savage tiers would die so much faster and subs dropped so much quicker without fflogs there to provide metacontent after the fact. If we, of course, assume that in lieu of FFLogs there'd be nothing, speedkilling and parse running communities wouldn't exist; people would have little reason to pug with strangers outside of their inner circle to improve their personal performance in their off time.

Midare has the right of it imo. There's nuance. No tool brings strictly good things as tools are what the community does with them.

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Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

I'm not even going to touch the hellish can of worms that comes from a voluntary sample method because that would take forever or more likely just kill everybody here

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

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The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.

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Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

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And you seem to think your anecdote can be extrapolated to "most."

Even in your example though, that's only 6 weeks more than my own example of "most" which I'll concede I can't claim either. Which still leaves a long period of nothing. Not to mention how the hours you put in, whether hardcore or softcore, are roughly the same just spread out over different periods of time.

Again, "for the sake of argument let's agree you're right," FFLogs is still a net benefit on the community.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The only good way to use fflogs is for comparisons against yourself.

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I actually disagree; I think it's also very useful to compare yourself to more skilled/optimal players. I have learned a lot about optimization in a given fight by finding people who perform better than I do, then examining the timelines of their fight logs.

I just look at what the optimal rotation is for my class and work around with learning that than worrying about actual numbers

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

I'm not even going to touch the hellish can of worms that comes from a voluntary sample method because that would take forever or more likely just kill everybody here

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Not true.
The profile still shows the original parse because the profile always shows the historical ranking, meaning the parse of the clear period during which you killed the boss. If you click on the parse then you will see it in the context of the current clear period which will downgrade it in most cases but not nearly to the extend you're suggesting.
My first week clear of p1s was a 76 at the time we cleared and is still shown as such on my profile. If you click on the parse, it's a 36. So it went from barely-purple to mid-green. The 95 from my co heal would have been a 53 in the context of the latest clear period which is aginst people in full BiS. That's a far cry from orange to grey.
And since someone looking up a person will always have to go through their profile unless given the link to a specific kill, the historical ranking is what they will see first.
So no, an orange-parsing first week raider will not be treated like an idiot because their parse got downgraded to blue at most.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I actually disagree; I think it's also very useful to compare yourself to more skilled/optimal players. I have learned a lot about optimization in a given fight by finding people who perform better than I do, then examining the timelines of their fight logs.

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Same here.
I learned a lot and got several good ideas just be peeking over the shoulders of better players. How do they solve certain mechanics in terms of cooldowns? How did they deal with stuns/ phase transitions that interrupt the flow of their rotation? How did that BLM managed to get 100% Ley Line uptime? One player can never have the same wealth of ideas on how to solve mechanics than a collective of good players.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

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Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

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You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here

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It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

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Well the thing with my situation at least is that I do savage raids with friends so we all know each other and own up to our mistakes during prog attempts. Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.

I think the same should be done with statics.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.
I think the same should be done with statics.

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Because you can not verify if someone is saying the truth or not without using 3rd party tools.
All you have is someone's word for it.

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

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Logs don't work that way. You get your orange, it gets locked on your profile as a historical percentile.

Besides, no static with a shred of common sense cares if you have greys on your profile. The obsession over percentile number and fear that you'll be seen as "bad" (or judging others over it) if it isn't orange is mostly a casual player thing. Good players just use it to set personal goals and keep raids interesting on reclears. Decent statics are looking for your potential, your uptime and if you're playing your job correctly.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I would argue that the content of fflogs skews heavily towards a particular subset of the playerbase. While sometimes you'll get casual content thrown on there for purposes of XIVAnalysis (or just because someone was lazy and uploaded an entire evening's worth of logs rather than specific encounters), the vast majority of those logs are going to represent Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate content.

Yes, we can certainly draw conclusions from FFLogs' data, but I'm not sure we can draw conclusions which are applicable to the entire playerbase as opposed to the small subset that run savage. I would assume that SQEX has far more complete data than we do in that respect.

This isn't to say that there is something in that data that explains why they're fixated on the current job balance, mind you. I'm just saying there very well could be, and we would not know. So the fact that they aren't changing job balance doesn't necessarily mean they're ignorant of its state.

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Well yes, of course FFlogs represents mostly extreme, savage and ultimate content. That's where job balancing is relevant. SE has long abandoned all notions of keeping job balance in normal content. Otherwise Warrior's self healing would have been nerfed ages ago. Buffs like the recent ones to warrior and paladin can not have a negative impact on the casual playerbase. It was just potency increases, so the jobs play exactly the same. They just wont be locked out of savage PFs anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

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Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

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I would watch what others are doing and bring that up to em if excessive wipes are happening. It's not hard to tell who is and isn't doing what needed. But again I've never needed to do this tbf.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

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Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.

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The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

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Sounds like confirmation bias to me to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

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I view it more of this game wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Hardcore Raiding? Cool thats neat.
Not giving the players anyway to evaluate their OWN damage, let alone the performance of others? Not so great
Not even given the faintest hint of feedback on ANY KIND OF PERFORMANCE at all? Now its just getting mediocre.

The toxicity is already there, people will just scream and frustration when things dont work out and lash out at anything, rather than giving people a means of identifying issues with the party and adjust accordingly you'd rather have a system that keeps everyone in the dark for the sake of protecting some players feelings? This is somehow preferable to an entire party disbanding and they all get frustrated and upset over it rather than being able to identify the weak link,
who may very well be someone who doesnt even KNOW they're the weak link and has no means in the game for self improvement?

Then honestly maybe they shouldn't put such high gear/dps/heal checks in this game. Just let all the content be easy baby mode and put the PVP chat filters on all content.
Or are people really supposed to just run the same content 100 times and pray that one time the planets align and they get the clear?

Its honestly kinda pathetic that so many groups just rely on these plethora of 3rd party tools just to accomplish what other games have as basic features, all in the false pretense that it makes the game less toxic.

Thing is I get it, class balance needs to better, but people need to learn to properly chill and get some needed perspective sometimes rather than stewing in their own mindset about how the balance should be for them.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Its honestly kinda pathetic that so many groups just rely on these plethora of 3rd party tools just to accomplish what other games have as basic features, all in the false pretense that it makes the game less toxic.

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I want to add to that, the only thing that can make the game less toxic is active moderation. You can not eliminate toxicity through taking away tools. Crystal Conflict's chat system proves that. Sure you only have predetermined messages but when a teamfight goes south and one person is spamming good match 15 times in a row, we can all guess what they actually mean to say.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

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I mean you can surprisingly look over log data, identify a problem with regards to another players performance, bring up said thing you identified in a polite and supportive manner in order for said person to try adjust things to improve. You can even do all of this in private.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

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I think the sample data here is skewed; people are more likely to come post on the forums when annoyed or upset about a thing. Folks who have just used logs to improve their own performance or clean up a static's mitigation strategy for a fight are not likely to come post on the forums about it.

Therefore, you're more likely to see people who have just had a negative experience with parsing come and post here... and more likely to see people who engage in that conversation on the opposing side taking a defensive tone.

This isn't to say that parsing may not cause more negativity than positivity; I don't know. But I do think that forum posts are a terrible—and inherently inaccurate—way to judge that.

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

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Combination of factors.

Fight was overtuned and required higher degrees of perfection than any savage fight since HW. It doesn't really make sense for a Savage DPS check to be more difficult to meet than an on-content ultimate.

Job balance is extremely bad right now, which combined with the above lead playing certain jobs to be akin to actively sabotaging your group. These jobs were getting mass kicked or locked out of party finder.

P8S doorboss is fun, but badly designed. It has two timeline permutations, and one of the permutations is inherently worse for buff alignment / pot windows. Because the check was so tight, this lead to groups immediately walling if the pattern was unfavorable.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

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Being forced to switch jobs, pray for crit RNG or abort runs because of bad timeline RNG isn't 'challenging'. It's just unfun.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

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The key was job balance. Several groups that had a paladin or a warrior were hardstuck on the phase 1 enrage on p8s despite getting through the fight cleanly but managed to clear within a couple of pulls (or even the next pull) when they swapped to drk/gnb, despite those jobs not being the comfort job of these tanks. That's what made it so disheartening. The DPS check being this tight is a bit of an outlier but it didnt break the fight. As you say, world first was achieved in a reasonable amount of time, but the job composition played a role in it and that goes against the intended design of 'play whichever job you like'.