Players have ruined deep dungeon for people who want chests

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DamianFatale

There should be a minimum time requirement spent in each deep dungeon for it to count toward experience (without reason). As well as a boost per stat for each clear of every ten floors. +1 on the floors we have isn't enough if people just demand that you skip all the chests. I think it should be somewhere around +3 and +5. It has taken the fun out of it for anyone who likes the deep dungeon, and wants to earn extra rewards. I.e. weapon glamour.

Usually if you don't like it, they threaten to kick you, and tell you to just solo it, or find a party of people who want to get chests. That's hard to do, or find. :/ You also can't solo that well without finding chests first.

In the same vein that people ruined MSQ, players have ruined deep dungeons for others, and I think it's time the devs do something about it.

---

This has been an issue for a long time. But I think the solution is to make it so chests apply a buff that increases exp gained.

When you have two distinct groups who have different goals out of one form of content, it's not really faesible to legitimize one group's style of play by simply... removing the other. As much as I generally prefer going for chests, I understand that some people just care about exp.... so reward them for helping people get chests. Close the gap between the goals. Make it so that going for chests creates the ideal end result for both groups.

Sounds like it's just an argument over speedrunning for chests or for duty completion.

You'll earn chests/stat bonuses just as fast if not faster if you speedrun it vs opening every chest so that's not really the problem you make it out to be. Run 6 slow runs vs 9 speedruns and see for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

You'll earn chests/stat bonuses just as fast if not faster if you speedrun it vs opening every chest so that's not really the problem you make it out to be. Run 6 slow runs vs 9 speedruns and see for yourself.

---

Not if your teammates run over silver chests without opening them, so you have to run back to where they came from and open it yourself while people wait at the exit. Some players will happily not pick up any chests, in which case speedruns give you zero chests (unless you slow it down by getting the chests alone).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

Not if your teammates run over silver chests without opening them, so you have to run back to where they came from and open it yourself while people wait at the exit. Some players will happily not pick up any chests, in which case speedruns give you zero chests (unless you slow it down by getting the chests alone).

---

"Hey guys; I'm trying to upgrade my weapons/armor. Can you please open any silver chests that you walk by?"

Fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

"Hey guys; I'm trying to upgrade my weapons/armor. Can you please open any silver chests that you walk by?"

Fixed.

---

Their response: crickets

Not fixed.

So I just get the chests myself and they can wait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

"Hey guys; I'm trying to upgrade my weapons/armor. Can you please open any silver chests that you walk by?"

Fixed.

---

Depending on my job I'm not risking a mimic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sesera

Depending on my job I'm not risking a mimic.

---

Silver chests only spawn mimics between floors 31-40 in PotD which is not a level range that gets run over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elesh

This has been an issue for a long time. But I think the solution is to make it so chests apply a buff that increases exp gained.

When you have two distinct groups who have different goals out of one form of content, it's not really faesible to legitimize one group's style of play by simply... removing the other. As much as I generally prefer going for chests, I understand that some people just care about exp.... so reward them for helping people get chests. Close the gap between the goals. Make it so that going for chests creates the ideal end result for both groups.

---

Oooo. This is a really good idea.

Maybe combine this with a guaranteed skill up for each chest for those cases where people still don't want to open chests even when they run right over them. So if some members of the group decide to forgo the extra experience, the person needing stat upgrades isn't left out in the cold since they could get some benefit from those they're able to get to.

Ultimately, I think SE just needs to start designing content so the ability of someone to get the rewards from it isn't based on the whims of others, but their own work. So start doing things like giving tokens on completion of the floor set in Deep Dungeons, for instance, instead of something like this system that relies on others helping find and clear to them during the instance. Then someone using it for leveling and someone using it for rewards would both be rewarded after a run. I know they want people to work together, but human nature just doesn't work like that. They should have enough examples over the years of this game that many players just don't want to help others, especially if it holds them back from what they want.

Instead of trying to police random people, you could just...not play with random people?

Make friends and play with them or do solo runs instead of being disrespectful to other people's time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Instead of trying to police random people, you could just...not play with random people?

Make friends and play with them or do solo runs instead of being disrespectful to other people's time.

---

It's interesting that it's okay in your eyes for people who want to skip everything to force people who don't want to do so to skip, but it is 'disrespectful of peoples' time' for people who DON'T want to skip to loot some chests?

Seems like a strange double standard to me. Especially since the original design likely intended for people to get all the chests...




In the end, this all comes down to, as I said earlier, the fact that there are two groups of people with drastically different - but both equally justifiable - goals when entering PotD. The solution is not to tell one of those groups 'just do the content alone because you're not good enough for the rest of us', the solution is for the dev team to step in and bridge the gap between the two groups. There are a number of ways they could do that, but that should be the goal - making it so that the 'ideal way to play the content' creates a mutually beneficial situation for both groups. It's not impossible. And it would go a long way to getting rid of this 'my way is the right way to do deep dungeon' elitism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elesh

Seems like a strange double standard to me. Especially since the original design likely intended for people to get all the chests...

---

That's exactly what the original intention was. The content was designed to be doable with any group makeup, but it has exclusive rewards that can't be gotten anywhere else. Those weapons (and later on the items from the hoards because IIRC we didn't have hoards at launch) were highly sought after because they were good upgrades. You also used to have to sacrifice the entire amount of aetherpool when you wanted a weapon. There was no grip system. That was added later.

When this first came out, everyone cleared the entire floor for all chests because that aetherpool was incredibly important. Unless it was a gloom floor with slimes and the birds cause we were just trying to get the hell out of there. The leveling aspect didn't come into play for a long time. I want to say they may have boosted it at some point to make it more desirable.

And you're exactly right. The developers need to make sure that everyone can get rewards from doing the content, not just one side relegated to going solo or being left out because their success depends on the goodwill of others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Instead of trying to police random people, you could just...not play with random people?

Make friends and play with them or do solo runs instead of being disrespectful to other people's time.

---

Not policing anyone, just there to get loot from the only place it can be obtained from. If you run with random people you take the risk that some people aren't there to speed run in max gear and they need the loot. I'll run back to get a chest in PotD, HoH, dungeons and alliance raids if I need it. People can kick me for it and see what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

Not policing anyone, just there to get loot from the only place it can be obtained from. If you run with random people you take the risk that some people aren't there to speed run in max gear and they need the loot. I'll run back to get a chest in PotD, HoH, dungeons and alliance raids if I need it. People can kick me for it and see what happens.

---

That's still only one of multiple and conflicting potential uses for the content. Threatening to report them for your favoring your use of the content over the majority's --or pretending yours, alone, is common sense-- doesn't change that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's still only one of multiple and conflicting potential uses for the content. Threatening to report them for your favoring your use of the content over the majority's --or pretending yours, alone, is common sense-- doesn't change that.

---

I wouldn't dream of reporting someone for having a different preference or even voicing their preference. I wouldn't report or kick someone for ignoring my objective (when they run over silver chests) and I wouldn't try to get someone to change their play style after I make a simple polite request to pick up loot. If they want to stand at the exit because they don't want a mimic or a bomb from chests, they are free to do so. They are only making it slower for themselves.

But if I'm not offline, afk, cheating, harassing, rp-walking backwards, /sitting, taking screenshots or getting mobs to kill my character or other characters on purpose, and they kick me just for looting in a dungeon, that's when I let a GM decide the best outcome. It's never happened yet because most players have more common sense than to kick someone or defend kicking someone for that reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

I wouldn't dream of reporting someone for having a different preference or even voicing their preference. I wouldn't report or kick someone for ignoring my objective (when they run over silver chests) and I wouldn't try to get someone to change their play style after I make a simple polite request to pick up loot. If they want to stand at the exit because they don't want a mimic or a bomb from chests, they are free to do so. They are only making it slower for themselves.

But if I'm not offline, afk, cheating, harassing, rp-walking backwards, /sitting, taking screenshots or getting mobs to kill my character or other characters on purpose, and they kick me just for looting in a dungeon, that's when I let a GM decide the best outcome. It's never happened yet because most players have more common sense than to kick someone or defend kicking someone for that reason.

---

Keep in mind that game management has been adamant that a "difference in playstyle" (include, majority wants A and minority wants mutually-exclusive B) is a valid reason to kick.

While I can't see myself ever kicking someone for this reason unless they were being a complete *ss about it by refusing to move on until they've killed every possible mob (which would only slow their own rate of chest acquisition anyways), a kick in that circumstance would seems to clearly fall under that clause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's exactly what the original intention was. The content was designed to be doable with any group makeup, but it has exclusive rewards that can't be gotten anywhere else. Those weapons (and later on the items from the hoards because IIRC we didn't have hoards at launch) were highly sought after because they were good upgrades. You also used to have to sacrifice the entire amount of aetherpool when you wanted a weapon. There was no grip system. That was added later.

When this first came out, everyone cleared the entire floor for all chests because that aetherpool was incredibly important. Unless it was a gloom floor with slimes and the birds cause we were just trying to get the hell out of there. The leveling aspect didn't come into play for a long time. I want to say they may have boosted it at some point to make it more desirable.

And you're exactly right. The developers need to make sure that everyone can get rewards from doing the content, not just one side relegated to going solo or being left out because their success depends on the goodwill of others.

---

They have given players the tools needed to handle this.

The fact of the matter is that Duty Finder is a "quick in-quick out" system. The community has determined that it's there for going into content synced to the highest possible power level and move through to completion.

If you have any sort of desire to run content in a way that isn't that (e.g. min ilvl, special party makeup, exploring, taking your time, looting everything in PotD, etc) that's what party finder, FCs, and sub-communities are for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Keep in mind that game management has been adamant that a "difference in playstyle" (include, majority wants A and minority wants mutually-exclusive B) is a valid reason to kick.

---

Posts in this thread suggest that your interpretation of the rules is not the only one so I don't think it's useful to keep that in mind. It costs me nothing to report someone if I feel that they are preventing me from playing, trying to enforce a play style or otherwise breaking the rules. The GMs decide the validity of a kick. If people are confident that their conduct is appropriate and their account is safe, then they have no reason to worry about being reported.

Deep dungeons can be solo'd and you can grab friends to run with. A friend of mine would alternate runs of HoH and Potd every saturday/sunday. I got every mount and furniture item this way, running with friends on the weekend. Full of banter even if we managed to wipe on later floors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

It costs me nothing to report someone if I feel that they are preventing me from playing, trying to enforce a play style or otherwise breaking the rules.

---

And, again, if you're demanding your group let their time be wasted to accommodate your unique preference at their expense, how are you not "trying to enforce a play style" upon them?

By all means, you may already have reserved macros just for filling out the report box for all anyone cares. I'm not faulting your efficiency here, only the hypocrisy.

Yours is, after all, at least as demanding an objective, seeing as your not joining your team on the teleporter will only ever be wasting their time or holding their run hostage (while you, by contrast, still gather chests at about the same rate regardless).

Yes, they're "free to" join you in killing further mobs than are necessary to reach the next floor or to wait at the tele while you turn a group activity into a solo one there is already a separate queuing option for, but in either case, that part of their time goes to waste.

If their asking you to do as is preferred can only elicit a "Nah, I do want I want," from you, how does your quickness to report a kick ultimately differ from reporting them, simply, for having a difference in playstyle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And, again, if you're demanding your group let their time be wasted to accommodate your unique preference at their expense, how are you not "trying to enforce a play style" upon them?

---

I'm not forcing them to kill anything, to loot anything, to use pomanders, to go a specific route or uncover the whole map. They are free to ignore my request and objective and I'll just have to do my best to get what I came for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

your not joining your team on the teleporter will only ever be wasting their time or holding their run hostage (while you, by contrast, still gather chests at about the same rate regardless).

---

It wastes my time too when I clear 3 rooms as a manticore and arrive at the exit room and find out my teammates did not pick up any chests despite running behind me and despite me asking them. Everyone loses, but hey, no big deal. I'll go back to get the chests that were the sole reason I even run the content and then we can move on to the next level, which will go much more smoothly because at that point I'm prepared to follow others and pick up loot after them.

And you're wrong about the rate. When uncooperative team members leave loot lying on the ground my loot acquisition rate is zero. The only thing I can do to alleviate that is picking it up myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, they're "free to" join you in killing further mobs than are necessary to reach the next floor or to wait at the tele while you turn a group activity into a solo one there is already a separate queuing option for, but in either case, that part of their time goes to waste.

---

Would you kindly quote where I describe killing more mobs than necessary? Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I only go back to get chests that my teammates could have gotten effortlessly from rooms they were already in. It's their choice to ignore the loot they run past. Can't be in too much of a hurry if they can afford to be so inefficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

So you are saying I don't need my tome gear for doing content? So if want to do endgame like extremes or savage, I'm not forced into the treadmill of tomes? Because we all are the type of hardcore raiders that clear the entire raid tier in crafted gear and even if, then your pushed into something to making the money for said gear.

If you want to participate in endgame you are indeed forced to take a path that has 2-3 possible routes or you wait half a year to do the 24 man raid to gear up ... that or you simply say "I don't mind being lower ilv then the rest, their gear will make up for mine" who are they to tell you.

---

No, once again you have the CHOICE to do these things just like you ha e the choice to play the game. Nothing in this game in this regards makes you do anything against your will. If you want to raid in savage that is your choice and certain avenues are there to aid you with that.

You're arguing something else, has nothing to do with being forced to lets can that word here as it doesn't apply

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I uh... wouldn't be so sure of that. They've been cracking down pretty hard on people for "abusing" the kick function as of late. Apparently kicking people for underperforming and/or not sticking with the group can now be considered abuse. Do it if you want, but don't be surprised if you end up gaoled after doing it one too many times.

---

It says ‘unjustified’ kicks. Refusing to cooperate with your team is not. But since you wanted to bring up the changes I’d say many of the mentioned ‘obstruction’ sections would be valid reasons to report the person refusing to play as a team.