Hissatsu: Kaiten

Nice to see FF14 continued trend of downsizing jobs for literally no reason. SAM didn’t gain any skills in 6.1 this is just a loss pure and simple.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

its pretty funny Kaiten is getting removed before Undraw

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Undraw and Summon Eos/Selene will never be modified or removed. Mwahahahaha.

To me the issue isn't complexity, it's fun.
Kaiten is fun...
It feels great to weave and adds speed and variety, the rotations in FFXIV are very static so when you remove skills it inherently makes the rotations more monotonous and less engaging.

I'd rather take a potency nerf that is made up for with Kaiten + the auto-crits ( and lower the level you get Kaiten at ).

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Kaiten is not complex. It is exactly the right button to cull from the job because all it does for gameplay is it makes you sit on kenki until you hit 35 so you can always kaiten a iaijutsu. This is not complex, or exciting and it's loss doesn't even really change anything, since you will still want to sit on 10 kenki for movement skills so you're still building to 35. It is the most no-thoughts button in the job.

I don't even really think it looks all that cool since it's an ogcd so it gets clipped constantly. It certainly isn't as cool as the big damage numbers you see from auto-crit midare+analogs. It also makes the hw content not feel like trash since you don't generate enough kenki to kaiten every iaijutsu you use, which is a nice side benefit.

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"I'm apathetic to the situation so im gonna interpret what people say whatever way I want just for the sake of having something positive to say and making them look stupid"

I will be really disappointed if they remove that skill. The flair and feel of that wind-up before a big hit was a big part of why I enjoy SAM. Others have pointed out there are much better options like Shoha II to consolidate into other skills.

If they're going through with the auto-crits, why not make kaiten guarantee a crit on the next hit?

I've always liked modifier abilities like that. To the people saying it isn't fun, speak for yourself. Removing it does make it that much less fun to me. If button bloat is such an issue (and we could've predicted easily it would be, didn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out), enable something like the PVP combos but on an optional basis for players who have the issue. That would involve more work, but it's work that ought to have been done during EW design. With my keyboard and 15 button mouse, it's not even near becoming an issue...

Good, get rid of it! A skill like that loses its touch as a modifier when its not optional to use, aint that big of a deal folks...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I've always liked modifier abilities like that. To the people saying it isn't fun, speak for yourself. Removing it does make it that much less fun to me. If button bloat is such an issue (and we could've predicted easily it would be, didn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out), enable something like the PVP combos but on an optional basis for players who have the issue. That would involve more work, but it's work that ought to have been done during EW design. With my keyboard and 15 button mouse, it's not even near becoming an issue...

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I am getting so tired of the '' button bloat '' issue too.
I don't even have to turn to shift + or anything like that for my single target SAM rotation and if it's really such an issue with AoE too then people can just use the arrows to swap to a different hotbar and use the same keybinds but for AoE.
A lot of the skills too are used infrequently so having some stuff bound to shift + isn't even a big deal...

I really wish people could stop trying to turn FFXIV into WoW or ESO...
The most frustrating part about it too is that most people complaining about this I doubt do any of the content where DPS even matters.
I really wonder how many of the people who complain about button bloat even do the endgame content.

Imo the game is already too easy overall, even if removing Kaiten doesn't make it A LOT easier it still makes it easier and less engaging which only makes the problem with content being easy mode even worse.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Good, get rid of it! A skill like that loses its touch as a modifier when its not optional to use, aint that big of a deal folks...

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Why would a modifier be optional <_<?
If it supposedly wasn't such a big deal then why remove it?...

Obviously it is a big deal to a lot of people since it's such a controversial change.
Not a big deal to you ≠ not a big deal to others.

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Originally Posted by Xenovel

I will be really disappointed if they remove that skill. The flair and feel of that wind-up before a big hit was a big part of why I enjoy SAM. Others have pointed out there are much better options like Shoha II to consolidate into other skills.

If they're going through with the auto-crits, why not make kaiten guarantee a crit on the next hit?

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Hey your suggestion is actually really good I didn't think of that.
I hope they listen to the negative feedback and does something like that, it'd actually be a great solution.

Making Kaiten guarantee a crit on the next hit is a really good idea if they do so wish to go down the crit route.
However I'd hate to see Kaiten go.
- the animation
- the fact that you have to think ( when you want to use Shinten / Kyuten so that you still have enough for a Kaiten to boost a Iaijutsu, instead of spamming it or saving the resource till raid buffs )
- the fact that it gives some sort of speed to the job

If the problem is button bloat, why not:
- turn Ikishoten when used into Ogi Namikiri and then Kaeshi: Namikiri
- merge Shoha 1 and 2 into just Shoha but AoE with some fall off
- merge Guren and Senei into one, probably Senei but AoE with fall off

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Originally Posted by Duskane

its pretty funny Kaiten is getting removed before Undraw

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don't forget draw and play being seperate buttons

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

Making Kaiten guarantee a crit on the next hit is a really good idea if they do so wish to go down the crit route.
However I'd hate to see Kaiten go.
- the animation
- the fact that you have to think ( when you want to use Shinten / Kyuten so that you still have enough for a Kaiten to boost a Iaijutsu, instead of spamming it or saving the resource till raid buffs )
- the fact that it gives some sort of speed to the job

If the problem is button bloat, why not:
- turn Ikishoten when used into Ogi Namikiri and then Kaeshi: Namikiri
- merge Shoha 1 and 2 into just Shoha but AoE with some fall off
- merge Guren and Senei into one, probably Senei but AoE with fall off

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Shoha is the button I feel is the only one I'd consider bloat really.
At least imo the AoE animation is better too but that's just personal preference.

Especially since it's just Shoha 2, it's not a new skill altogether it's an upgrade of another skill.
It's a bit strange thematically that we'd use a '' lower rank '' skill and have it deal more primary target damage.

It's nothing to do with complexity, I just don't get the SAM changes in general. Why go after Kaiten and not Shoha/Shoha II or merging Senai/Guren for a start. Next, guaranteed crits are problematic because Endwalker has focused very heavily on buff synergy and alignment and some classes have buffs that affect crit rate.

This just feels like untested changes by someone who doesn't really play SAM at a high level or know how other classes work. Ever since they revealed their dungeons are QA tested by casual players, a lot of things have made sense and I get a strong impression this applies to most of the game.

Bad samurai developer bad change! Nerfing and gutting the class even more sigh... I really hope this doesn't make sam complete shit I really want to talk to the developer and ask why he thinks this is remotely a good idea.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

...And not Senei? Or Shoha 2? They're arguably more thoughtless than Kaiten, why not delete them first?

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Oh I've been mad at those buttons since they were shown off and I think they should get culled too tbh. Samura is the most bloated job for sure and while I generally like that, they'd still be at like 32 binds if you cut shoha 2, senei, and kaiten.

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Originally Posted by HayaW

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but complexity can make something feel rewarding; like solving a puzzle.

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There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

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This is basically my feeling kn it as well. I switched to DRG for the tier, after maiming SAM since it released.

Reposting this in several places in attempt to get traction, maybe

Kaiten is not a button bloat issue in the keybinding sense

In the slides, the JP text uses the word "操作量”, which is more equivalent to action bloat, in the sense that it is an extra action to press before iaijutsus.

However, in this vein, Kaiten isn't an action bloat issue either, and removing kaiten does NOT alleviate this issue (which doesn't really exists in the first place imo)

In removing Kaiten, the kenki will just be spent on Shinten instead, which still takes up an oGCD slot, and is objectively less interesting.
Granted, I'm not saying pressing Kaiten is some 200 IQ move, but it is still an active decision to be made, whether to spam Shinten or conserve Kenki for Kaiten.
Which is funny because, going from 4.0 to 5.0, they added Tsubame Gaeshi and the gutted Hagakure to discourage Shinten spam, and now we are going back to it.

The only time Kaiten action bloat is a minor issue is when, during a 2min burst window, you are setting up Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi Setsugekka -> Sen GCD -> Higanbana -> Ogi Namikiri with 1 stack of meditation. In which after Higanbana you will reach 3 stack meditation, forcing a Shoha cast, and also having to Kaiten the Ogi Namikiri. Higanbana being a cast means you cannot double weave (without clipping) during that slot thus you have to introduce another GCD to weave the Kaiten, or modify the sequence of the skills.

This can be alleviated in so many ways that does not require the removal of Kaiten.
For example, letting mediation go up to 5 stacks (with Shoha being usable at 3) as to have some buffer zone. This even adds some more optimization depth as you can choose where to place your Shoha.
Or simply make it so that Ogi Namikiri does not require Kaiten, as we got the "sword twirling powerup" with Ikishoten already.

IMO, the decision to remove Kaiten is a bad solution to an irrelevant problem, and this isn't even an agrument regarding the aesthetics and class fantasy of the skill.
For all the transparency and communication the devs do, job balancing isn't part of them.

Since ShB launched the game has undergone streamlining on the hopes that it would expand the audience. I actually think they accomplished some of this fairly well, at least on non-healers, like Reaper is brilliant and Nu Summoner is a great baseline provided they don't back down on it in the future (give me more summons with more movement contrivances, this design is good for a puzzle-based combat game.)

I know this is charitable, but I'm going to be charitable to a game I like even as a long term genre vet who knows better.

I feel like they probably doubled down on things after the WoW-implosion, thinking their game design had something to do with it and went off the deep end in a few spots. Pruning like this feels misguided, especially when it goes right down to the bone - class identity.

This is why people want MMOs to have class devs/reps, which they sadly never do so there's no one to go to bat for you on the minutiae of the job. This stuff really matters when you play it for this long.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Since ShB launched the game has undergone hefty streamlining on the hopes that it would expand the audience.

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And I am totally on board with this so long as the decisions made with design are sensible and lead to a benefit or QoL change. For example, changing the range on gap closers so that they all are 20y is a sensible change. Adding both benefits to skills like Addle and Feint is a sensible change. Adding audio notification to gauges capping is a major QoL change.

These are the kind of things you want to see happen. You don't want to see decisions that make zero sense, while simultaneously taking away QoL aspects to the job. And the majority of SAM's changes and additions are exactly that. A myriad of questionable decisions that make you think, "WTF?" "Are they using backwards logic over there, or what?"

Again, it doesn't make any sense, to me at least. I don't do Ultimate or Savage so maybe the players involved in that content can make some sense of it.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Nu Summoner is a great baseline provided they don't back down on it in the future

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Machinist and Dark Knight say hello and have come to tell you that you're not getting this.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

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Here's the thing with Kaiten. It can be something else if developers want to use it for something else. It's little more than a damage buff for the next ogcd, however it's a player decision that is more than just 'dump meter into ogcd action that does damage', which all dps jobs unfortunately have and that is what they do. Kaiten is different in the regard of at least giving a different flavor of meter dump into damage. I guess Machinist has Reassemble as something similar in that regard. Maybe they could make it more interesting by buffing end of combo damage more than Iaijitsu so that there is some more decision making with meter use.

There's a reason JP is livid and letting the 'Ooo, let everything convert to Summoner crowd' be trampled into the dirt this time. It's not even button bloat that's the problem. It's idiotic decisions that are made THIS EXPANSION where they consolidate skills but magically decide Ikishoten shouldn't convert into Ogi Namikiri for..some reason? The 'bloat' is literally SE's fault, and why they choose to remove Kaiten when they can remove nothing is why people are mad.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

the irony of someone not knowing SAM's kit trying to "git gud" over the removal of the most boring part of the kit is hilarious. in ST you use your Kenki on Shinten and Senei, in AoE on Kyuten and Guren

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Aye I am speaking from lower levels. I only am at level 60, if you take that away, I will have nothing to do at that level. I know they are balancing around end game but can my leveling experience not be the same thing until I reach end game? I said git gud because they keep saying dumb things at square like people can't play the game so we are removing X. literally every time, and than they go back and say naw brah its cause button bloat.

I think at this point they should just go the whole way and make you push 1 button until your 90, done. No button bloat until 90 everyone because thats how it starts to feel on most classes. Skills keep getting taken or moved to the end so when you are leveling it is painful sometimes. I just want to learn the fundamentals of a class as I go rather than bam here you go here is all of the stuff we took from earlier levels now leveling to 50 is just wow I get to be forced to do a class quest for nothing now and hey look a new skill was added that was similar to the skills I use to have like whm's suspiciously similar water spell. I am just sick of having to wait forever for my skills and constantly being synced down when I finally get them if I didn't actively queue for the later raids or dungeons I would never know how to play any of the classes at anything other than level 50.

There are many buttons that can be combo buttons and many that can turn into other things, why they do not just do that? They have done it with many things already. Why remove it, because at end game it is a boring part of the rotation. Give me some other things early than at 60 right now the only thing I can spend it on are Hissatsu: Gyoten and Hissatsu: Yaten
Hissatsu: Kaiten is literally the only other thing I can spend it on unless for damage at level 60 what I am now going to do is Meditate and literally go in and out of combat like a bafoon I guess? Save it for a rainy day and movement intensive fights? You just over cap your gauge now and learn nothing of later levels. WONDERFUL! At least monk got some love early levels.

"Yeah!
1-2-3
Do you love me?
Watch me scream
Burning on the trees
In amazement
'Cause I'm on fire
You know?"

"4-5-6
Show ya all my tricks
Fee Fii Fo
A giant's at the door
In amazement
'Cause I'm on fire"

Song is Soul Wars by Awolnation and many thanks to best friend number one for slaying me by mentioning this.

Plenty of ways to consolidate the job skills without yeeting them. Playing Stepmania every two minutes was never complexity. More unique skill combos (not 1,2,3 obviously) and less oh here is another X00 potency skill with big flashy animation you fit under raid buffs.

Roulettes feel like absolute garbage because 90% of time you are syncing down to levels where your job is boring as heck. So at 60 the only spender you have now is to spam engage? Da heck? You have button bloat problem because you insist on adding duplicate X potency buttons instead of actually interacting with job gauge in unique way. Why not just remove job gauges?

Few things, particularly for when people say it adds complexity:

1. SAM has no gauge management if you do your rotation properly and use third eye. I don't know why people say that it does, I literally never even look at my Kenki bar.
2. You use Kaiten at the exact same time, always, for the same 3 skills. In Stormblood Kaiten + Midare wasn't used nearly as often as it is now; it's a spam button (which was Shinten's job). It's not that interesting and this change allows for more agency with Shinten usage.
3. Experienced SAM players will be more rewarded now if they don't mess up their gauge because of the additional damage with an extra Shinten.

That being said people are entitled to their opinions about how they personally feel about it. I'm indifferent but I understand some just like it for what it is. It doesn't add complexity or depth to the job though, ever since they made it so that you had to use it on 3 buttons on your opener. In Shadowbringers it was a bit more nuanced since positionals gave you Kenki and not raw damage and in Stormblood it was straight up use way less so it felt more satisfying when you did use it. For Endwalker however you just spam it and it doesn't feel that great or impactful (At least IMO).

I feel like people who make this an issue of job complexity and skill are missing the mark entirely. It doesn't change anything about the skill ceiling of the job, and is only a small change to the skill floor. Resource management hasn't been an important part of Samurai's gameplay since Stormblood, and anyone who thinks that it was meaningfully difficult or complex are just telling on themselves.

It just makes the job less fun. That's it.

@ Above poster; That's what I don't get. Why do people think the job has resource management? It straight up doesn't. It didn't even in Shadowbringers.

Notice how before the perplexing announcement to remove Kaiten, not a single person out there was saying things like “wow kaiten should be removed it’s a useless skill” or “I don’t like doing kaiten they should just bake the damage in”. It was just an accepted part of the job. But now that the devs announced their intention people have come out of the woodwork to defend the choice. I can’t help but question if these come from a place of truly wanting the skill removed or just a need to defend the FFXIV team’s decisions. There was a person in the other thread who was being contrarian and stubborn for literal hours on this issue despite valid points coming their way

Repose to @localareanetwork

It literally is resource management though, how is anything but? Samurai was the only job where movement, OGCD damage, and a buff were tied to the same meter. The default defense of this change seems to be “well it wasn’t that complex to begin with guise so let’s make the job require even less thought!” It’s not like any job mechanic in this game is rocket science to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

It literally is resource management though, how is anything but? Samurai was the only job where movement, OGCD damage, and a buff were tied to the same meter. The default defense of this change seems to be “well it wasn’t that complex to begin with guise so let’s make the job require even less thought!” It’s not like any job mechanic in this game is rocket science to begin with.

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You don't manage it because doing your rotation normally always no matter what just gets you the needed kenki for everything you use it on

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Few things, particularly for when people say it adds complexity:

1. SAM has no gauge management if you do your rotation properly and use third eye. I don't know why people say that it does, I literally never even look at my Kenki bar.
2. You use Kaiten at the exact same time, always, for the same 3 skills. In Stormblood Kaiten + Midare wasn't used nearly as often as it is now; it's a spam button (which was Shinten's job). It's not that interesting and this change allows for more agency with Shinten usage.
3. Experienced SAM players will be more rewarded now if they don't mess up their gauge because of the additional damage with an extra Shinten.

That being said people are entitled to their opinions about how they personally feel about it. I'm indifferent but I understand some just like it for what it is. It doesn't add complexity or depth to the job though, ever since they made it so that you had to use it on 3 buttons on your opener. In Shadowbringers it was a bit more nuanced since positionals gave you Kenki and not raw damage and in Stormblood it was straight up use way less so it felt more satisfying when you did use it. For Endwalker however you just spam it and it doesn't feel that great or impactful (At least IMO).

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"If you play perfectly it doesn't add complexity" Yeah ok, does anything at all? And im sure you yourself have felt good when learning how to use the skill while leveling, but decide to act like this is the best decision for no reason but to defend SE.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

"If you play perfectly it doesn't add complexity" Yeah ok, does anything at all? And im sure you yourself have felt good when learning how to use the skill while leveling, but decide to act like this is the best decision for no reason but to defend SE.

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hitting positional, using thirdeye on raidwides and not hitting ikishoten when you have 60+ kenki already isn't remotely playing perfectly, it's just the bare minimum

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Here's the thing with Kaiten. It can be something else if developers want to use it for something else. It's little more than a damage buff for the next ogcd, however it's a player decision that is more than just 'dump meter into ogcd action that does damage', which all dps jobs unfortunately have and that is what they do. Kaiten is different in the regard of at least giving a different flavor of meter dump into damage. I guess Machinist has Reassemble as something similar in that regard. Maybe they could make it more interesting by buffing end of combo damage more than Iaijitsu so that there is some more decision making with meter use.

There's a reason JP is livid and letting the 'Ooo, let everything convert to Summoner crowd' be trampled into the dirt this time. It's not even button bloat that's the problem. It's idiotic decisions that are made THIS EXPANSION where they consolidate skills but magically decide Ikishoten shouldn't convert into Ogi Namikiri for..some reason? The 'bloat' is literally SE's fault, and why they choose to remove Kaiten when they can remove nothing is why people are mad.

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I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

If the issue is that you'll always have Kenki to be able to use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu then I'd rather they just nerf Kenki generation. No reason to kill a class mechanic instead.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

If the issue is that you'll always have Kenki to be able to use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu then I'd rather they just nerf Kenki generation. No reason to kill a class mechanic instead.

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The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

You don't manage it because doing your rotation normally always no matter what just gets you the needed kenki for everything you use it on

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So we’re gonna pretend that this stuff doesn’t exist:

-downtime because of mechs where you can’t generate kenki
-party buffs
-AST cards
-needing kenki for movement

Even if you treat the sam rotation as if it’s being done on a target dummy, it obviously generates enough kenki for kaiten because otherwise there would be a resource generation problem with the job.

Also Im starting ot believe people are straight up jumping to defend no matter what this decision since a lot of people are just saying "it doesn't add complexity"... yet the post itself said its not about that. Just repeating the same thing over and over and pretending other people are idiots for not knowing this is insulting.

Misshapenchair hits the nail on the head with why the changes make Samurai and less interesting and well designed job:

https://youtu.be/XIHj-1_Yn1U

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

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I'm not understanding what that has to do with removing Kaiten but that sounds like a wider issue with how crit works in this game.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

So we’re gonna pretend that this stuff doesn’t exist:

-downtime because of mechs where you can’t generate kenki
-party buffs
-AST cards
-needing kenki for movement

Even if you treat the sam rotation as if it’s being done on a target dummy, it obviously generates enough kenki for kaiten because otherwise there would be a resource generation problem with the job.

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1. Use meditate during downtime.
2. Party buffs come up naturally when you reapply your dot and use ogi, so you'll have Ikishoten
3. Dunno how AST cards have anything to do with SAM Kenki Management. AST Cards are RNG so you can't possibly plan for when you get a melee card. Unrelated but I play AST too and I hate when it gives me too much of melee or ranged.
4. You're talking about the dash, I assume? You primarily use it to cancel knockback effects that you don't arms length. Which doesn't happen at all in this raid tier. The only time you use the dash at all even is when Hesperos uses Kothornos Kick after you soak your tower during Act 3. And even then, it's only 10 gauge, that's just one Sen combo

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Originally Posted by baklava151

I'm not understanding what that has to do with removing Kaiten but that sounds like a wider issue with how crit works in this game.

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Nerfing SAM's Kenki generation would just make it suck if you didn't buff it elsewhere, which I don't know how you'd buff it enough to make up for the massive damage nerf from having less gauge without making it overpowered.