"gogogo" might make me quit this game.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

and maybe some of you are fine with that. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but it is my opinion and my feedback even though there is an infinitesimally small chance it will affect anything or anyone, besides getting my flamed.

"Gogogo" really sucks, especially for new players. Im to the point now of getting dungeons that I don't recognize or remember, that I have evidently already done. I struggle to keep up, I use sprint on cooldown just to keep up, healers pulling, DPS pulling, never time to watch cut scenes or even look at loot. I hate it. I hate the go go go mentality of this and other MMO's. It is destroying my love for a beautiful game that I have otherwise fallen in love with.

Im sorry some of you have been doing these dungeons for years and could do them with your eyes closed and get physically ill at the sight of them. But there is an unprecedented number of new players to the game right now and you should be a little more patient. It is not fun, very frustrating and again, I know I may be in the minority, but I can't be the only one.

Im not sure what the solution is or who to blame but I wanted to give my feedback.

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Just quit or stop making your party members miserable, Tia fanboy.

I started rushing other people in the first month of me playing this game.

Op you could try and communicate that you'd like to go slow. Or check your party's gear. If everyone is wearing a Blade's ____ or any lv 80 piece of gear or gear that's clearly way above the level or ilv of that your group should be able to handle more than just one group of mobs. Also yes, having to do single target in trash packs is boring. Heck everyone is getting more AoE in 6.0 so there'll be even more reason to pull more.

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

I really struggle with this, the whole AoE mobs thing. I keep thinking I get all of them, but one always gets past and stays past until I realize it. At that point, do you have to run and get them, or do you just use your ranged/provoke? What if more than one gets past? That's happened to me a lot, too.

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Your ranged attack should be adequate for getting hate back from a regen tick. Provoke will need to be followed up with another attack. So say it's a pack of 3, you ranged attack 1, regen ticks, 2 and 3 beeline for healer. So Ranged attack 2, then Provoke 3, then AoE with 3 targeted (and ideally positioned to hit 1 and 2 as well).

Easier fix... make a User Macro:
/statusoff "Regen"
/statusoff "Medica II"
/statusoff "Whispering Dawn"
/statusoff "Angel's Whisper"
/statusoff "Aspected Benefic"
/statusoff "Aspected Helios"
/statusoff "Diurnal Opposition"
/statusoff "Diurnal Intersection"
/statusoff "Diurnal Balance"

Put on your hotbar near your ranged attack and tap it before engaging the first target in a pack. The others should reliably link to you first then, and beeline at you in range of your AoE hit. If you are pulling more and the healer tosses something on you between packs, go ahead and tap the button again to ensure they didn't put a HoT on you that will interfere with the gathering of the next pack.

I don't even use sprint a lot of the time, though I do pull as large as possible in the majority of dungeons. I don't really ever have anybody running in front of me or pulling for me. I mean sometimes I do sprint, but usually if I do I leave my party behind, a lot of healers I get are way behind me even without sprint.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Honestly, the rushing gets annoying for me as well. If I get a drop I'll look at it for a second. If I happen to be the healer and the tank doesn't think it a good idea to wait 5 seconds that's on them.

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I just look at a drop while playing or moving at the same time. Maybe it's harder to do on console?

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. As a tanker with anxiety, it gives me panic attacks when people run ahead of me. I will never be thankful that someone decided to run ahead of me, because if I screw up and they die, they're going to blame me, when it was not my fault. This is the kind of thing that makes me afraid to tank, even if I do want to.

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If you get a legit panic attack you might want to look for professional help about that, that's a completely irrational panic. If someone pulls for you and drags the mobs into you, you just need to continue doing what you were doing already: AoE attacks and mitigation. If they dont do that you get to tell them to pull stuff into your AoEs. Tanks are completely useless if they single pull, you just dont need a tank there at all. Tanking is so hilariously easy.

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

I really struggle with this, the whole AoE mobs thing. I keep thinking I get all of them, but one always gets past and stays past until I realize it. At that point, do you have to run and get them, or do you just use your ranged/provoke? What if more than one gets past? That's happened to me a lot, too.

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People dont just die to single mob auto attacks. Use provoke if you have it, ranged attack also works or just tell them to drag the mobs into your aoes. It's really not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

That is the reason why it is a bad idea when tanks can create AoE threat so easily, IMHO. That thing is really good in WoW classic that you have to fight to get threat from every single mob. It prevents the "gogogo"-mentality very effectively because "gogogo" is not possible without dead DPS players.

Cheers

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Except Classic WoW was infested with AoE mages and warrior tanks with the gogogo mentality. Dungeons in this game are a joke and are boring as hell, it's no wonder that people get in and want to get out asap. And it's not like SE is helping that cause with the relic grinds requiring dungeons. How many times have people ran ARF over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? How many times would you like to run that dungeon and have it take 45+ minutes?

If you're gonna play BLM, you really should learn to love big booms and fast dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Except Classic WoW was infested with AoE mages and warrior tanks with the gogogo mentality. Dungeons in this game are a joke and are boring as hell, it's no wonder that people get in and want to get out asap. And it's not like SE is helping that cause with the relic grinds requiring dungeons. How many times have people ran ARF over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? How many times would you like to run that dungeon and have it take 45+ minutes?

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ARF til you barf.

Yeah, the go go go thing is terrible. As a healer main, I refuse to run dungeons unless I know the tank personally. It really sucks on days when I cannot get a friend to tank, because I miss out on roulettes, but I am forced to make that choice because of tanks that think they can tank entire maps and DPS that think they are tanks, then they turn around and blame me for their deaths...

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Yeah, the go go go thing is terrible. As a healer main, I refuse to run dungeons unless I know the tank personally. It really sucks on days when I cannot get a friend to tank, because I miss out on roulettes, but I am forced to make that choice because of tanks that think they can tank entire maps and DPS that think they are tanks, then they turn around and blame me for their deaths...

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Learn to stand up for yourself already. You've been playing this game for 5 years. Uh no, poor me, being attacked, need duo to vote kick unpleasantness.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Yeah, the go go go thing is terrible. As a healer main, I refuse to run dungeons unless I know the tank personally. It really sucks on days when I cannot get a friend to tank, because I miss out on roulettes, but I am forced to make that choice because of tanks that think they can tank entire maps and DPS that think they are tanks, then they turn around and blame me for their deaths...

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Thing is, a competent tank probably can tank an entire map in post-50 content and a dps pulling ahead will not kill them as long as the tank takes aggro. If as a healer main you don't know how to keep a tank doing w2w alive, I have to question your understanding of your abilities.

Ima point out that besides the initial run, you never have to do the dungeon again. Want tomes theirs like 7 other roulettes you can do. 3 of which are trial alternatives and 1 being a glorified solo instance.

The 4 of them, trials, raid trials and 24 man, and MSQ is more than enough for caps for the week. Also get a gripe, dungeons in 80s hardly requires any real critical thought and your just slowing down the group if you decide that more than 3 mobs is too much, which unless your doing leveling dungeons 71-79 or the ARR minilvl, Your hindering the parties progress by slowing them down. Either change to a job that has no responsibilities like a DPS, or don’t do dungeons.

A argument can be made that the mobs need to be more of a threat but this would just piss off the people that want a on-rails and non threatening experience in high 90s content. To that I say “just do trusts, don’t water out the content for everyone”

You're right. Gogo is a terrible character. So much potential with being able to customize his abilities, knowing all the magic the party knows, and 'Mimic'.
But his abyssmal stats - and complete inability to raise them with Espers! - means that while he can do anything, he'll do it pretty terribly.

... wait, is that not what we were complaining about?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

We should be encouraging people to improve rather than holding others back to accommodate fears.
And fears of what even? Wipes don't exactly set you back much like they do in other games. The entire game is based on "learn though failure" when it comes to raids anyway.

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It’s not necessarily fear tho. For me personally it’s partly an intense dislike of having to rush. I dislike timers for the same reason, it promotes a sort of frenzied gameplay that I find off-putting. That doesn’t automatically equate dawdling around (tho I have zero issues with that, I’m very patient lol), it just means I like a pace that feels efficient but calm.

I’m not saying btw everyone should feel like I do. Or that every run should go the way I prefer it to. I fully understand others have run content a million times and may prefer a quicker pace and I’ll of course adjust respectfully when necessary. But I find it quite telling this same respect is seemingly not returned in these kind of discussions. Rushing at max speed is, and should be, the norm and any deviating from that is BAD instead of taking away from discussions like these that some people really don’t enjoy it and therefore maybe the speed of a run should depend on more factors.

In game I find this much less the case btw, most people I’ve met in DF were chill and just went with the flow.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

It’s not necessarily fear tho. For me personally it’s partly an intense dislike of having to rush. I dislike timers for the same reason, it promotes a sort of frenzied gameplay that I find off-putting. That doesn’t automatically equate dawdling around (tho I have zero issues with that, I’m very patient lol), it just means I like a pace that feels efficient but calm.

I’m not saying btw everyone should feel like I do. Or that every run should go the way I prefer it to. I fully understand others have run content a million times and may prefer a quicker pace and I’ll of course adjust respectfully when necessary. But I find it quite telling this same respect is seemingly not returned in these kind of discussions. Rushing at max speed is, and should be, the norm and any deviating from that is BAD instead of taking away from discussions like these that some people really don’t enjoy it and therefore maybe the speed of a run should depend on more factors.

In game I find this much less the case btw, most people I’ve met in DF were chill and just went with the flow.

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Part of the cause of this rushing mentality is the lack of difficulty or danger in most 4 player duties that resulted from over simplification of general 4 player duties to be essentially a linear corridor, and the players being over geared due to rapid power creep via ilvl. The latter part of that may not be so much of an issue when Endwalker launches since they're removing belts as a gear slot and are supposedly cutting stat gains on lv 50+ ear to only have about 20% of what they currently have now. However that also depends on how they rebalance the duties from lv 50+. I would hope we'll finally start seeing some more interesting dungeon designs in Endwalker. However if that isn't the case then atleast throw in more of those enemy types that can cause problems. A couple examples being those frogs that cast the buff that makes an enemy grow and become more powerful. Bees/wasps because final sting sucks when you pull a bunch of enemies and your DPS doesn't prioritize getting rid of them before they suicide poke the tank. Maybe have more enemies that either explode painfully when they die or do some kind of death throes effect that buffs the remaining enemies around it when it dies? Oversized enemies that can fall on you when they die doing damage? I only mention that last one because I'm recalling a few times in other games I played where I found myself giggling because someone got killed by a large monster or boss falling on them when it died.

If we've got a newbie watching a cutscene, I stick with them outside the arena. If those who ran in can survive without heals until we get there, great. We'll join them when the cutscene is done or the game pulls us in. If not, then they can enjoy the walk of shame back and hopefully have learned something about manners.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

and maybe some of you are fine with that.

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Just say, "I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I'll go if that's what you want." Drop the group and eat the penalty. I've done this from time to time.


*Side note*
Wawa french fries are awesome.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Maybe it's harder to do on console?

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Not even close to hard.

Select, Select, X/A/whatever. Done, you're in the loot menu in < 1 second. I play on controller as tank, open up chests the nanosecond the boss dies and get my lots done on loot within the time it takes to reach the first pack after the boss. It's all about learning how to menu properly.

We have done the same dungeon 300 times, we don't want to go slow.

The game is built and designed for wall to wall pulls. You can not like it, but that's your problem with the game, not your problem with other players. The game is explicitly designed and balanced so that you're supposed to pull everything possible. You can't argue this when even -that- is completely lacking in challenge, and pulling single packs or even doubles is enough to put people to sleep.

I would rather things not be like that. I would prefer each pack to be intimidating and dangerous. I would rather the game put CC abilities back into the game and add more. I would rather take non-boss enemies seriously. But the reality is, they're nothing more than HP-based progress bars to delete so I can move on with my daily routine. They will never be a challenge until SE decides they should be. Dungeons are and (seemingly) will always be brainless "mash muh AOE combos" fiesta, with some interesting bosses, beautiful scenery, and great music to make it worthwhile.

As for people being "selfish", I see people using that word incorrectly. If an entire group wants to rush through a dungeon, but one person does not, THAT person is being selfish.

If someone says "hey I'm not comfortable tanking big packs yet", it depends. If we're in the 30s or so, then sure, I totally get it. But if you're level 70+ and you say you're feeling nervous, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You either level boosted (at which point it's on you to catch up skill wise Right Now, which is easy), or maybe tanking just isn't for you.

As for cutscenes, eh. I just do whatever the group does. If someone just goes ahead and pulls the boss, I'm going in and I'll keep everyone alive if the healer decides to stay out. I don't care if someone watches the cutscene, but neither am I going to really care if they miss the first 15-20 seconds of the boss fight that they'll see another 500 times.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

That is the reason why it is a bad idea when tanks can create AoE threat so easily, IMHO. That thing is really good in WoW classic that you have to fight to get threat from every single mob. It prevents the "gogogo"-mentality very effectively because "gogogo" is not possible without dead DPS players.

Cheers

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Not only do you have snap aggro on everything in a huge circle around you (cone if you're a warrior... lol), you can also then go afk, because no further action is needed.
Basically sprint through the dungeon while hitting the aoe combo, stop running, press a mitigation button (whichever is available), go get a drink or something.
A tank in dungeons can even ignore mechanics.

How that's fun, I don't know. I find tanking dungeons exceedingly boring.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

make the damange receive more intense

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Also, remove skills like Lucid Dreaming. The group is only as fast as the healer supports, and without MP, things slow down automatically.
Some MP draining mechanics would also be nice.

They made a mistake, removing TP.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Tia fanboy.

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/facepalm

Go sit in a corner.

Not gonna pitch in any thoughts here, but I’ll give some advice:

Look at loot while you’re dealing with mobs. It’s tricky at first but it comes easily. Just click (or select if youre in console) the loot popup in the bottom right corner of your screen (or wherever you’ve tucked your notifications popup). Leave that open while running to the next mob. Right click (or whatever it is to try on gear on console). Give it a quick pass with your eyes. If the iLVL is greater than yours, roll on it.

Alternatively: roll need/green on EVERYTHING. When you’re out of the dungeon you can look at your loot and give what you don’t need or want to the grand company for GC seals. I’ve made about 2mil gil off of this because I’ll exchange seals for glamour prisms/glamour dispellers.

Also - there’s only a tiny amount of dungeons which have cutscenes longer than a few seconds. No matter what I will not join in a fight until everyone’s finished a cutscene, so if the cutscene is on the longer end I’ll sit next to the person and type in party chat “Watch your cutscene.” if they’re new. If we get locked out, so be it. I hope the tank, healer or DPS can survive until whoever’s watching the cutscene is done.

(I also W2W pull, the two don’t need to exist separate from each other)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

One of the problems with going slow is that fighting 3 enemies is boring for everyone

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Boring or not, if there are new players mainly tanks or heales then maybe they aren't comfortable with going fast in a new dungeon. No one should feel pressured to pull wall to wall. At least FF14 limits pulls unlike in WoW where you can pull from boss to boss and it's horrible.

It's a tragedy that people have to learn how to press buttons to do solo duties too. Maybe that means it's time to learn how to play.

Nobody is going to do/say anything if you look at loot or watch a cutscene, and you're not missing anything except getting hit by mechanics.

They should make all dungeons like BA.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Not only do you have snap aggro on everything in a huge circle around you (cone if you're a warrior... lol), you can also then go afk, because no further action is needed.
Basically sprint through the dungeon while hitting the aoe combo, stop running, press a mitigation button (whichever is available), go get a drink or something.
A tank in dungeons can even ignore mechanics.

How that's fun, I don't know. I find tanking dungeons exceedingly boring.

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I'm not going to lie it is almost to easy to tank in FF14 but part of me is happy it is because if it was not we wud most lightly have the same issue in FF14 as in WoW and that would be 90% of the player basis would choose to be DPS

I'd much rather the difficulty from dungeons stem from bosses as opposed to trash packs. I do not support giving them bizarre mechs, I like mass pulling and aoeing things down and then having bosses that do interesting things like Aenc Thon, the DR bosses, etc. If you want surprises in the middle of a trash pull, go play deep dungeon. It's more fun to spend 10-15 minutes in a dungeon run with interesting bosses as opposed to a 40 minute slog where each trash pack is a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

its hard to blame SE for something that the PLAYERS do.

let be realistic, a majority if not all of the people rushing through figure they have to do things as fast as possible. thats society and gamers. everyone is in a rush, everything is expected to be fast so they dont, heaven forbid, have to think.

dont blame the game, blame people.

the people that want to rush... will always rush, no matter what the developers do. its current human nature. because deep down, a majority are terrified of... "boredom"

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Players adapt to what systems allow them to. Once upon a time, healers actually didn't DPS but were far more conservative and mostly focused on healing. We have the infamous statements Yoshida has made about not wanting to make healers feel forced to DPS. What changed? The community realized outgoing damage is relatively low, thus they don't need to focus on healing. Nowadays, it's downright negligible. Which only further incentivizes the "gogogo" mentality.

The dev team is absolutely at fault. In their pursuit of accessibility, they went too far into the extreme territory: everything is laughably and hilariously easy so even the absolute worst players can still clear. Dungeons are essentially participation trophies. Therefore, better players brute force content the game allows them to. I'm not going to disengage for an AoE I know won't kill me. Nor do I care about collecting a vuln stack or two when the damage increase is trivial. And I'm not going to single pull mobs unless everyone else wants to go slow. In which case, I'll take my penalty and leave.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

That is the reason why it is a bad idea when tanks can create AoE threat so easily, IMHO. That thing is really good in WoW classic that you have to fight to get threat from every single mob. It prevents the "gogogo"-mentality very effectively because "gogogo" is not possible without dead DPS players.

Cheers

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I can keep dps up as a healer as much as I can keep a tank alive. Ive done Castrum the other day where the tanks were no where to be found so a Samurai was chain pulling and we still did fine. Sure Im glued to my heal buttons but thats fine.

Single pulls are one of the most boring things as a healer in this game. Same for dps who dont need to use AoE, and tanks who dont need to mitigate.

Granted, I'm not that high level with my tank yet, but I can speak for my Bard, who is top lvl now, and in my opinion, I think the learning curve when it comes to 4 men and eight-man dungeons is good. Now granted after doing anything several times will make it boring at some point. But it doesn't matter what game we are talking about. Still, in the end, I have to say I have never experienced such a patient community toward new people, and if you one day wish to just plow through your daily dungeons and raids with an experienced group that can pull wall to wall and run through 5 dungeons in five minutes then plz look me up and invite me when the day comes I done this for the 20th time and just want to get my next piece of gear and have seen everything I need/want to see in the dungeons.
But please don't force people that just arrived in this game and looks at the eatherite in their first town for the first time with eyes big as footballs and ask them to rush through the dungeon and skip all the cut scenes because it was only a month ago I was that guy that thought everything even the ground I was standing on looked amazing. I could not stop talking about that guy with the awesome-looking armor and lance that was an lvl80 dragoon or just watching this ninja practicing on a dummy with his awesome-looking moves that made me wanna try all the jobs that this game can offer just to experience the effects.
And above all, the best story I ever experienced in any MMO.
Some of you might have forgotten all of this, so here is my reminder to you all.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

I would say apart from WoW this is new to me. WoW is literally the only game I've seen this mentality in

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Ah, you haven't played ESO then I see.

In ESO the normal dungeons new players are likely to select are dungeons veteran players can solo ... and that's exactly what a lot of players do. They sprint ahead, solo or 2 man the dungeon, and leave while new players may be half a dungeon back lost and confused.

They really need to make dungeons Unsoloable in ESO it's horrible.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Ah, you haven't played ESO then I see.

In ESO the normal dungeons new players are likely to select are dungeons veteran players can solo ... and that's exactly what a lot of players do. They sprint ahead, solo or 2 man the dungeon, and leave while new players may be half a dungeon back lost and confused.

They really need to make dungeons Unsoloable in ESO it's horrible.

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No, I have not and that in my opinion sucks when people can do that

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Originally Posted by Juun

I can keep dps up as a healer as much as I can keep a tank alive. Ive done Castrum the other day where the tanks were no where to be found so a Samurai was chain pulling and we still did fine. Sure Im glued to my heal buttons but thats fine.

Single pulls are one of the most boring things as a healer in this game. Same for dps who dont need to use AoE, and tanks who dont need to mitigate.

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True. But this also shows that the game is completely dps centric. There is no real difference between a tank job and a dps job. Both have exactly the same play style: both have a static rotation. The only difference is: as a tank the mobs attack you. And tank dps matters. Many tank players avoid the dark knight because this job has the lowest dps output.

And as a healer you also have to do dps. And dps'ing as a healer is boring as hell. Because the dps spells trigger the GCD.

IMHO such a game design is not very healthy for the game at all. It causes a lack of tanks and healers. Because why should i play a crippled pseudo dps job when i can play a real one? I think, the jobs need much more diversity at all and not just only "this job is only a slightly different rotation". :)

Cheers

Flash heal GCD flash heal GCD
oh damn, the tank is dying
Heal GCD
rinse and repeat
That's the rotation of a priest in WoW, and why am I telling you this?
Well, there are only so many ways a healer can be designed.
The fact that you even have time to break of and do some DPS with your healer is amazing to me.
I have four max-level chars in WoW, and my priest is still stuck on the first dungeon. Can you guess why? Well, let me give you a hint.
Flash heal GCD flash heal GCD
oh damn, the tank is dying
Heal GCD
rinse and repeat

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Then play with trusts and stop subjecting younger players to 30 minute dungeon runs.

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Right back at you. If you want to play with speed runners, then do that instead of queueing for the duty roulette and subjecting a mix of novices and experts to your impatience. I know it's not reasonable to expect that of you, however, for the same reasons it's not reasonable for you to expect that of me. If I could get 50 tomestones at a pop by exclusively running trusts, I would happily do so.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Right back at you. If you want to play with speed runners, then do that instead of queueing for the duty roulette and subjecting a mix of novices and experts to your impatience. I know it's not reasonable to expect that of you, however, for the same reasons it's not reasonable for you to expect that of me. If I could get 50 tomestones at a pop by exclusively running trusts, I would happily do so.

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No offense, but this attitude is exactly why DR df runs are so terrible now. You guys pushed all of the decent players out with this attitude.

Now they get sub 20 minute runs and df gets... Hour minimum....

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Do you eat your Cheerios one at a time too? So you don't risk choking on them? Because that's what single pulling in dungeons is like.

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It's not even possible to pull a single mob at a time in dungeons. They always pull in packs. For that reason, your analogy is off. Single pulling in dungeons is more like taking a handful of Cheerios at a time. What you're advocating for amounts to cramming as many Cheerios as will fit into your wide open maw.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No offense, but this attitude is exactly why DR df runs are so terrible now. You guys pushed all of the decent players out with this attitude.

Now they get sub 20 minute runs and df gets... Hour minimum....

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I'm not sure how DR is even relevant to this conversation. DR has no trash and no possibility of wall to wall pulls. I was farming memories in DR a couple of weeks ago, and runs were taking about a half hour. I can't even remember a single wipe in my runs. The "decent" players who you're talking about prefer to run with each other because they've spent hours outside of DR faming essences. Their runs are taking just as long, but they've front loaded that time into essence farming and manual group finding. More power to them. I can't say I've ever been bored in DR.