Yup, plus Warrior is the king of AOEs on Tank roles. With Nascent Flash and Aoes, you out heal the mass pull for a short time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Are tanks currently too OP?
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05-04-2021, 07:40 AMUndeadfire
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05-04-2021, 07:13 PMBhearilActually DRK is but lacks WAR self heals and has to rely on TBN and healer to survive outside of their shared mitigation skills. Not saying that WAR is bad aoe wise but DRK has tons of aoe skills which most of them can be used frequently, meanwhile WAR is kinda forced to use normal combos mostly outside of his burst windowsQuote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
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05-05-2021, 02:45 AMUndeadfireWar has a locked Direct/Crit during Inner Release it's insane, including Chaos versions. Mobs will be gone long before the Drk even gets the job close to finish, plus the Healer can go to town having a Warrior. Any Fell Cleave/Decimate/Chaos cuts down 5 seconds each to Infuriates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhearil
Edit: Living Shadow only does a combination of AOE/single attacks plus it's an extra 30 seconds cooldown vs Inner Release/Delirium. Direct/Crit guarantee on numerous targets will blow any tank out of the water. In a single target battle, yeah Drk wins the game by a small edge. -
05-05-2021, 03:04 AMKalaamYou might say, by the shadow of an edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
I'll see myself out -
05-05-2021, 07:15 AMBhearilOn single target they are around the same level (perhaps WAR now a bit better due to the small buffs giving him the dfinitive advantage albeit a small one), but dont forget that as i said WAR only outdps DRK aoes during his burst window (which is also when he get most of his self heals), so unless the mobs literally explode really fast, DRK will quickly catch up due to having more sustained damage with Flood,and other skills like Salted and Abyssal drain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
Maybe the healer might squeeze a very few extra cds with a WAR, but I was comparing Tank aoe strenght overall -
05-05-2021, 12:43 PMUndeadfire
I'll just agree to disagree on a long term aoe battle.
Aoe battles is only going to be in dungeons, and in that comparison there will always be downtime for the Warrior to get it's cooldowns back (Wall to wall, etc), Warrior will have an extensive advantage to end the battle quicker with the same Comps vs Drk. If Warrior goes to town on trash pulls, they die ultra fast using 3x Infuriates and Inner Release including the party comp. Remember this isn't about who does a larger number fighting the same thing for a couple mins. -
05-07-2021, 12:47 AMAC9Breaker
Im sure the stat squish in 6.0 will fix your perception of tanks being OP.
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05-07-2021, 01:11 AMLeonKeyh?? There's no evidence that would suggest that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AC9Breaker
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05-07-2021, 02:46 AMFallenWingsWAR loses to DRK in AoE and ST burst. DRK is the current king of bursts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
Auto Direct Hit/Critical is a con and plays against WAR when comparing against other tanks. Other tank potencies are balanced with WARs automatic DCrits.
For the sake of argument, we will have 8 GCDs for a trash pack(typical with a very good party of DPS and healer damage). I'll even throw in Storm's Eye for free.
WAR
IR = 5x (250*2)
3x Infuriate = (400*2)
Total AoE potency = 4900. (5,390 with storm's eye)
DRK
Delirium = (210*5)
2x Unleash = 300
Stalwart Soul = 160
Flood of Darkness = (300*5)
Abyssal Drain = 200
Living Shadow = (380*3)
Salted Earth = (60*5)
Total AoE potency = 4,650 (5,115 with Darkside).
Oh no! DRK is lower?
That is before DRK even Crits
Crit rate of 28% with crit damage of 60% at current BiS gives DRK 859 more potency putting their total at 5,974.
Oh but wait theres more!
Direct Hit rate of 18% with Direct Hit damage of 25% at current bis gives DRK 269 more potency putting their total at 6,243.
and that is just average crit/direct hit rates. DRK could get 70% crit in that instance or 10% crit and still win.
You can however take pride and solace in the fact that WAR still ultimately is the god of dungeon tanking due to being able to remove a healer completely and turning that 4th party member into another full fledged BLM that does more than double WHM DPS in dungeons. Who would've thought that Nascent scaling with damage would make it obscene in AoE? /s -
05-07-2021, 04:14 AMUltimatecaliburThat will happen as they are not just knocking zeros off hp, damage and healing. They are adjusting the scaling factor of the primary and secondary stats as well which will shrink the output gaps between ilevels. Going from a 10% increase in power every 10 ilevels to a 5% increase over the same period means that Going from say i430 to i530 would be a ~62.9% increases in character power rather than the ~159.3% it is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
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05-07-2021, 04:16 AMUndeadfire
Fine you got me by the damage scaling. Still rather call it to War based to the Nascent Flash only.
Edit: If Warrior didn't have Nascent Flash I would've easily submitted to Drk, but having immortality for 5 seconds every 30 seconds (Plus no death every 4 mins under 8 seconds) man how can it not be the king of aoes. -
05-07-2021, 06:16 AMLeonKeyhUnless they're going back on what they said, they stated that 80-90 would be the same growth rate as 70-80 was. Also, the enemy scaling would be changing as well to match the updated player scaling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
The stat squish should only affect unsynced content. -
05-07-2021, 09:22 AMUltimatecaliburYou are misunderstanding what was being explained. The growth rate from 70 to 80 in ShB was very shallow as compared to 50 to 60 in HW and 60 to 70 in StB (the steep scaling is incredibly noticeable in StB as Def/M.Def increases by nearly 50% between level 60 i270 and level 65 i276 which is why Bardam hits so hard). They are going to maintain ShB's shallow growth rate in Endwalker while also decreasing the output rates of PCs and Enemies. They are doing in such a way that when doing on ilevel content characters will not feel nerfed even if the numbers appearing are lower. The "unsynced" content explanation was actually referring to any time you overgeared a piece of content (such as LotA): players will maintain the same relative output when doing content at the intended ilevel (doing LotA in i70 to i90 gear) while being weaker while doing content overgeared (doing LotA in i130).Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
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05-07-2021, 04:26 PMVyrerusThis is a bit skewed for a few reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
It doesn't take into account that WAR and DRK gear differently. WAR's crits will be stronger for DRK wanting Direct over DET. WAR also has Vengeance, which is 55 potency attacks, available every 2 minutes, and you can sync it to Inner Release to have the 55 potency counters auto direct crit. If we're assuming that the pulls last for all 8 globals, then that means that every enemy in the pull will have struck the Warrior the full five times with Vengeance up. That's an extra 275 potency per mob, assuming they are all physical( and something like 550x4 275x1 if you've lined it up with IR, so +2475 for the WAR before Eye).
Personally I like tanking dungeons more on DRK, because Flood allows for easier control of pulls, especially with trigger happy DPS we have these days, no need to stop and get off a second GCD to solidify things, and also no need to prebuff/maintain Eye the whole run. But like, comparing a DRK's full damage pull versus a WAR's full damage pull, and they're both beastly up there. WAR has the edge though, unless magic pull, unless the WHM goofs'em, but pretty much all tanks have to gauge whether or not they can get their big stuff in on a pull or whether or not it'll better serve the next. -
05-07-2021, 07:49 PMAC9BreakerWhere da evidence only gonna effect unsynched content tho???Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
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05-08-2021, 01:52 PMFallenWingsI always do end up forgetting about Vengeance. A relic of WAR having extra imbalance for no reason. But yes DET difference and Vengeance is a large oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
WAR
4900 + 550(Vengenace assuming all 5 ticks auto crit for the sake of giving WAR extra = 5*(55*2))
5450*Det (1.122 modifier at 3113 Det)
6,114.9*1.1 (Storm's Eye)
6,726.39
DRK
4710 (60 added due to Salted Earth being 6 ticks and not 5 thanks to instant tick on cast)
4710*Det (1.095 modifier at 2454 Det)
5,157.45*1.1 (Darkside)
5673.195*1.168 (Crit average)
6,626.29176*1.045 (Dhit average)
6,924.47
Again, it still further illustrates that Automatic Critical and Direct Hit is a con for WAR, and that is with giving WAR free Storm's Eye(3 Single Target GCDs), a quicker than usual third infuriate and auto crit on all vengeance ticks. The gap widens should DRK just crit/dhit more or if there is a WHM present or Arm's Length is used. DRK also has 2 plunges, CnS and 4 Living Shadows ST attacks over WARs 1 Upheaval and 1 Onslaught.
But again as stated in the previous post, Nascent Flash nulls it all anyways thanks to it being busted in AoE.
(Side note: Big pulls after the first one; WAR can have Storm's Eye running to negate the initial 3 GCD loss of putting it up but DRK can also bank a Dark Arts giving them 441.05 more AoE potency) -
05-08-2021, 03:55 PMVyrerusYou're really just going to ignore that critical hit puts an extra critical hit damage modifier on critical hits? Has a calculation for that not been mapped? As for those single target things, we can't assume that DRK's skills will crit or direct, whereas WAR's will automatically Direct Crit too. You can't really say, "If the DRK just crits more." Cause it's just as/more likely that it will crit less(won't crit). WAR's auto attacks also automatically direct crit under IR. I don't really see the big gain of DRK's extra singles over that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Also, let's talk about the elephant in the room. If the DRK is synced for any reason, they have no direct hit rate at all, unless food/synced gearset is equipped. It can only edge over WAR on AOE damage then, in the most current setting. Unless the player is dedicated to having old sets lying around.
Like sure, DRK has a slight edge at the top, but the idea of WAR's direct crits isn't really a con. It just has less skills that deal damage (at least in this comparison).
In the in-between pulls when the cooldowns are down, WAR's general AOE skills that we haven't compared here are Overpower and Mythril Tempest. A 130 cleave into a 200 circle. Compared to DRK's 150 Unleash into the 160 Stalwart Soul. 330 vs. 310. Spenders being a 250 reg or 400 auto Dcrit to a 210. How does it all map after that first pull? Who gets to do their big potency rotation more throughout the dungeon? Obviously, it's all situational and depends, but this ain't no Grand Canyon of a gap. The gap that you say widens when the DRK crits more narrows when the DRK doesn't crit/direct. Which is actually more likely to happen.
Also, as far as banking that extra flood goes, while it is possible it's just as easily goofed as Vengeance ticks. It implies that the DRK puts up TBN towards the end of a pull, and that the monsters still break it, as if pulls die uniformly (they don't due to decaying AOEs and auto attacks). -
05-08-2021, 06:01 PMFallenWingsThe potency for WAR is all automatic critical direct hit damage. Hence the 250*2 for Decimate and 400*2 for Chaotic Cyclone. (Critical direct hit is x*1.6*1.25 or simply *2)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
Vengenace is 55 by itself. So under IR which automatically critical direct hits, it becomes 55*2. Since it can only have 5 hits it is 5*(55*2). (Mind you only 3 or 4 of those ticks should be automatic direct critical hit under IR but for the sake of ease of calc, I've given them automatic dcrits anyways).
The total potency for WAR is all that WAR can possibly do due to *automatic* critical direct hits.
DRK doesn't have 0% crit/dhit and you don't factor it like that, hence the average modifer applied (1.168 for crit and 1.045 for dhit).
DRK has a lower GCD average because Flood of Shadow exists. It is how DRK does more/equalize with other tanks better GCDs.
Automatic Direct Critical Hit is still a con because WARs damage is capped alongside the shared gearing issue they uniquely have. DRK can achieve much more damage through RNG or it can do the average amount as expected of it's gear which still outdoes WARs cap. (This comment is more directed at WAR fundamentally rather than specifically in AoE burst, in which it is also a con imo).
Synced content is an interesting consideration, but bare in mind that WAR also loses all it's Dets melds. So in this scenario the 3% det discrepancy and the 4.5% dhit discrepancy makes them both a wash.
(WARs total drops to 6,564.5 when removing their det melds, and DRK total drops to 6,626.29 when removing their direct hit melds.) -
05-08-2021, 09:37 PMVyrerusI'm talking about the effect of Critical Hit as a stat. Critical hits at base work as you describe, but the more of the stat you stack, the higher the crit damage modifier becomes. At values of 4000 crit or above at level 80, for instance, critical hit damage gets a x1.62 modifier to its base value. Not 1.6.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Also, you can't just plug the crit average into DRK's total potency. That's not an accurate representation of the increase critical hit has on DRK's total damage, because the critical hits aren't guaranteed to happen on anything, let alone their highest potency attacks. For example, Unleash may crit, direct, or not, but then Stalwart Soul doesn't. Whereas we get a fairly clean picture of WAR's potential DPS, DRK's is murky, because you've got a mathematical assumption on something that's fluid. You have to apply the average crit and direct rate to DRK's individual potencies, and then add the products together. But even that just shows you a theoretical high, because actual crits and direct hits when they cannot be forced are so mercurial that the stat weight for them is always actually lower as a damage modifier than what we show on paper. Especially in AOE.
We've also left off the Tenacity mods, though the sets you're using have them equalized, whereas a better WAR set has something like 100 more DET and 300 more TEN than the DRK set, boosting WAR's numbers a little higher than we see here.
So for DRK we have
(210*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 1543.67 for Delirium + Quietus (1264.725)
(150*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*2 = 441.05 for Unleashes (180.675)
(160*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 235.23 for Stalwart Soul (192.75)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 2205.25 for the Floods (1806.75)
(200*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 294.03 for Abyssal Drain (240.9)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)
(60*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*6 = 529.26 for Salted Earth (433.62)
Yielding a total of 6571.64 potency for DRK (little bit higher if we accounted for TEN). Which is higher than it will be in reality, because of the aforementioned nature of RNG based damage. While it could spike higher sometimes, it is unlikely to do that. Every mob hit by the AOEs get separate rolls for whether they will be crit or direct hit, or not. For DRK there is a theoretical minimum that you will often times see. Those numbers after in parenthesis are that, and they yield 5384.145.
For WAR we have
(400*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*3 = 2999.106 for Chaotic Cyclones from Infuriate
(250*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*5 = 3124.06875 for Decimates from Inner Release
(55*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*4 = 549.8361 for the 4 guaranteed counters from Vengeance
(55*1.1*1.168*1.122) = 79.285 for the 1 counter from Vengeance that cannot possibly be in the IR window.
Yielding 6752.29585 for WAR. Higher than DRK on paper, and far more consistent. Not sure what it would be with 2.43 GCD BIS.
Every time one of DRK's attacks fails to direct or crit something, it doesn't get the weight of crit or direct on the actual damage happening. WAR is keeping up/surpassing DRK in reality, at least in this everything and the kitchen sink comparison across 8 GCDs while DRK has full MP. Of course, if we want to say some of DRK's hits will reach their theoretical maximum, it happens, just not often. -
05-08-2021, 10:24 PMMykll
I love how it started out as "are tanks too op?", and has devolved into "which tank is more op?".
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05-09-2021, 12:57 AMAwha
I am a simple lala Nascent Flash is what makes warriors busted in dungeons in my eyes.
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05-09-2021, 01:36 AMFallenWingsIf you want to use all the stats then sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
We'll use the 2.38 sets for both of them listed in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=849857335
Stat weights listed here: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-studies/stats/
DRK
Crit 4175 (28% rate, 63% damage) average modifier is 1.1764
DH 1460 (18% rate) average modifier 1.045
Det 1965 modifer is 1.064
Ten 809 tiier modifier is 1.013
Sks 1523 tier. Modifier is 1.045
WAR
Crit 4077 modifier is 1.624
DH 1.25
Det 3107 tier modifer is 1.109
Ten 875 tier modifier is 1.015
"(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)"
This is incorrect. 300 potency is what is listed on the tooltip but because of pet formula, it's true potency is closer to 360(thanks to not having to suffer the tank trait mastery). You can test this ingame by eyeballing Esteem's hit and compare it to Soul Eater.
(210*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 1,530.4 (Quietus)
(150*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*2 = 437.26 (Unleash)
(160*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 233.20 (Stalwart Soul)
(300*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 2,186.28 (Flood)
(200*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 291.50 (Abyssal Drain)
(360*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*3 = 1,574.12 (Living Shadow)
(60*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013*1.045)*6 = 548.31 (Salted Earth)
Total 6,801.07
(Btw doing the same formula to the total gets the same exact result so..)
WAR
1200 (Chaotic Cyclone)
1250 (IRDecimate)
220 (IRVengeance)
2,670*1.1*1.624*1.25*1.109*1.015 = 6,711.16
55*1.1*1.17*1.109*1.015 = 79.69 (Vengeance)
Total 6,790.85
Yes RNG is fluid and DRK may not crit roll sometimes but that is the point of applying the average modifier. DRK is not getting their benefits of the stats when they don't crit/dhit, and they are getting the benefit of it when they do. What happens when DRK gets godroll 70% rate? It blows WAR off the source. That's also why Auto crit/dhit sucks fundamentally *imo*.
It is not *safe* to assume 0% crit/dhit amounts in a realistic situation when there are very many rolls for it with each instance of attack.
And again, the calculations above are being generous with WAR. For the first pull I'll strip away Storm's Eye because of the potency loss of putting it up, suddenly WARs total drops dramatically down to 6,173.48.
The whole hypothesis in the end is flawed because there's a 6th usage of Quietus missing for DRK isntead of a 2nd unleash, third Chaotic Cyclone cannot fit in 8 GCDs, and Unleashx2+Stalwart Soul > Storm's Eye combo by a magnitude of the 3+++ targets in the pull sequence. Not to mention giving WAR all those breaks yet not giving DRK their Dark Arts stock. WHM will also shit on WARs vengeance in a regular standard composition as well.
I will however stand corrected on the weight of gear difference with det and vengeance closing the gap between the two classes. -
05-09-2021, 03:19 PMVyrerusYes it is, but not because of a 6th Quietus, nor just because of the handicaps we're giving WAR. You also seemed to have assumed that the DRK just has the Blood on demand for Living Shadow right off the bat, but it won't even get to bring Living Shadow out until after the 3rd GCD starting with 0 Blood. That means that Esteem isn't even going to do all of its AOEs by the 8th GCD because of the delay inherit when you summon it(it may or may not get to Flood, if the monsters die by 8th GCD). Also, I had to look into it more, but it seems at least according to the Balance's DRK guide, that Esteem's damage is unaffected by Darkside, while the pet thing is true. That means the total there is 1431.02. Bringing your averaged total on DRK down to 6657.97 (without taking away Esteem's flood).Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
I understand how average weights work, but reason that they do work is because they are set against the backdrop of a much longer encounter. If encounters were all so short as the one we describe, I'm sure that the mathematicians would weight stats differently. You notice that our back and forth here is, "What if DRK's RNG is really bad?" vs. "What if DRK's RNG is really good?" It's more likely to be bad, sorry, that's just a fact. If it were more likely to be good, people wouldn't need to do parse runs ad nauseum in order to achieve godlike percentiles. And that's in fights that last an eternity compared to this.
And thank you. I'm not really trying to say that DRK is bad or worse than WAR. I was just trying to say that the gap really isn't so wide. You can think Automatic DCrits are bad conceptually, but I mean, if Delirium did the exact same thing as IR, and they didn't coif DRK's skillset to compensate for it, then we wouldn't even be having something to compare. It's very powerful, due to its consistency, but irksome compared to old WAR imo. I very much miss +50% Berserk and +20% Maim. -
05-09-2021, 03:25 PMAbsurdityI mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
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05-09-2021, 06:18 PMKalaamI must say that using essences and lost fonts etc in Bozja on my tanks feels pretty great. Using two abilities, taking a relatively high risk (constant life-drain for a few seconds) for a big burst of damage is fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
It's always fun when you have to set it up a bit, like a Ninja's burst window. -
05-09-2021, 10:16 PMReiMakotoIts exactly this. IIRC fell cleave was basically the highest potency attack in the game in HW (outside of wildfire on mch being a true snowball), so lining up 3 in buffs was super satisfying (if a bit weird cos you had to pop defensive cds to get them all in). In a similar vein its why I really liked 4.1 warrior. Sure you ended hitting a shit load of fell cleaves when IR and Bezerk liked up, but you had to set up your beast gauge and enter bezerk on the right step in your combo in order to get all of it, which was way more satisfying than unga bunga.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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05-11-2021, 04:10 AMLeonKeyhI understand the confusion, but I do understand completely what they had talked about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
The "unsynced" comment was not about what you're talking about, unless they made another announcement or explanation after the Live Letter. The reason why they brought up unsync content being "harder" was because the power gap between max level and lower levels will be made smaller.
To simplify it into "power level" (These numbers are just made up, I don't remember the actual stat growth rates that they mentioned); If the base level 50 NPCs have a "power level" of 100, base level 60 have a power level of 200, base level 70 have a power level of 300, and base level 80 have a power level of 350, then a level 80 (power level 350) doing level 60 content (power level of 200) would have +150 "power level" above that content.Quote:
Originally Posted by AC9Breaker
If we're doing a stat squish, then those "power levels" would change; base level 60 would have 150, base level 70 would have 200, base level 80 would have 225, and base level 90 would have 275 (keeping ShB's growth); This means that a level 80 (225) doing level 60 content (150) would only be +75 power level and a level 90 (275) doing level 60 content (150) would only be +125 power level. This means that a level 90 doing level 60 content _unsynced_ would have a more difficult time than a level 80 pre-squish. That's what they mean by unsynced content being more difficult.
It matters because +100 might be required to solo a dungeon/trial, and then it won't be possible (or easy) to do anymore.
Again, unless they have said something _outside of the explanation from the Live Letter_ (I welcome additional information about it), the stat squish will not have an impact on at-level content OR synced content, it will only have an impact on older, unsynced content. It will make soloing/duoing/undersizing content that is not synced. -
06-22-2021, 04:45 PMLogicMouse
Sounds like you should switch to Tank ;)
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07-27-2021, 12:09 PMkpxmanifesto
Holy crap this thread blew up. Must be some good discussion going on.