Death unto Dawn page up

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Originally Posted by Ceridwenae

For the longest time I thought Haurchefant was a serial killer. He creeped me out no end, reminded me of real life guys who have had me deeply unsettled in the past and I really wanted to keep far, far away from him. He became less creepy over time to the point I was not happy when he died, but I have no doubt in another life his tale was quite a nefarious one.

Conversely, I've never thought G'raha was a serial killer and my daughter adores him so he has a pass for now. If he ever upsets her, however, I'm coming for him.

;)

As for Death unto Dawn, part of my brain wants us, the WoL/D, to die. Sort of. But I suspect it's likely more lateral than literal and I'm not currently invested one way or another.

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If they were going to do that the most optimal moment probably would’ve been either with Emet or Elidibus, it’s something i had actually been hoping for but guess they’re not interested in that :/(your last point i mean)

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I mean, the result of him still doing his job is that he spends long sections of Stormblood's story offscreen because he can't teleport like everyone else does. That's a pretty big consequence when compared to Y'shtola's blindness. All that has meant is that she has to burn aether to see, which is absolutely not going to cost her anything during the scope of FFXIV's story.

There's also Minfilia, who gave up her body and soul to Hydaelyn. And while the writers took great pains to distance everything Minfilia-related from the revelation that Hydaelyn is a primal, it's not hard to believe that she was tempered all the way up to her "suicide via passing the torch" moment. And the result of that whole mess is that the writers barely used her at all, and even took steps to write their way out of using her (100 years have passed since the Flood of Light, reincarnations in name only, the aforementioned passing of the torch story focusing entirely on the character receiving the torch, etc...).

I don't think I'll ever not be bitter about that, lol. I suppose it's a bit hypocritical of me to want them to hit the undo button on that one—I'm over here advocating that they hit the redo button on the Exarch's death, after all.

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If it makes you feel better i know how that feels. I’ll never not be bitter about the ending of ShB lol.

I don't mind G'raha in principle, I think he has been a more interesting expansion companion than Lyse for instance. The whole "thirst" was more of an external / community meme, although he tends to lean a bit too much into fan service as of 5.3.
But I do think he has outlived his scenaristic purpose, to the point where even if we know the writers are far ahead in the story planning, it feels like they pre-retconned him to survive 5.3 and get shoehorned in the story from there on, because of his succes within the playerbase. Yet I'm curious about how the character can develop in 5.5, now that he's going to be around for a while. Most of the scions had mildly-good to great character development with the expansions (the best ones in my opinion being Alphinaud in 3.0 and Alisaie throughout Stormblood). So we could have new characters brought in, but we can still expand on existing companions, like Estinien as it looks like his Trust system addition could indicate he'll be part of our adventure in 6.0. I think Y'shtola is getting a bit stale, so expanding on her (her past if we visit Sharlayan for instance) would be great.

Back to 5.5, I'm not sure it has to be impactful. 4.5 was quite boring, I remember 3.5 being a bit lenghty, and same for 2.5 apart from the very end of it. If anything in the current situation, it might just get increasingly frustrating regarding Zenos and Fandaniel, who are not that exciting to say the least.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But then where’s the threat? Where’s the suspense of what’s happening to them if we know they’re going to be okay. A story shouldn’t be one-sided, especially because in the case of ShB, in order to keep a certain character alive, they had to rely on half-assed plot armor which completely contradicted the story elements. If it’s something that makes them contradict their own points they wrote in the story, then that should be dealt with. Look at HW. The deaths were impactful to many but it wasn’t forced or anything like that. There were actually consequences for the protags that shaped them. ShB has none of that and it’s no wonder ShB also has less overall character development barring a couple of the scions (Thancred and Alphinaud most notably).

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Let's be clear on one thing: the main characters' plot armor is not invincible. We've already seen lasting, meaningful changes in the cast - and death is only one kind of thing that is a lasting, meaningful change. Papalymo is one example that actually is a death, and he was one of the few main characters we have that actually dates back to the original 1.0 version of the game. Some non-death significant changes include Raubahn's departure as Flame General of the Immortal Flames; the guy was basically the face of the Grand Company. Another example, Yda has left the Scions, and is now a side character.

The fact that new characters have JOINED the Scions (and not died immediately, as Moenbreyda did) is significant, as well. The group is fluid and changing.

The plot armor around the Scions is not as thick as you seem to think it is, and I never go into an expansion without some concern that some of them might not make it out unscathed. At the same time, to suggest that some percentage of them need to die periodically for things to be realistic is silly. These folks are the best of the best, and it's hardly surprising that they are difficult to take down. That said, Y'shtola's chronic brushes with death are more than a little eye-rolling, I'll grant.

The only character I know will never die is the WoL, for obvious reasons. Anyone else? Even Y'shtola? Fair game. Do I think it's LIKELY they'll die? Not really. Do I think it would be absurd if none of them die? No, I don't think that either - they're tenacious bastards, and for them to pull through even against overwhelming odds is what heroic fantasy is all about.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Let's be clear on one thing: the main characters' plot armor is not invincible. We've already seen lasting, meaningful changes in the cast - and death is only one kind of thing that is a lasting, meaningful change. Papalymo is one example that actually is a death, and he was one of the few main characters we have that actually dates back to the original 1.0 version of the game. Some non-death significant changes include Raubahn's departure as Flame General of the Immortal Flames; the guy was basically the face of the Grand Company. Another example, Yda has left the Scions, and is now a side character.

The fact that new characters have JOINED the Scions (and not died immediately, as Moenbreyda did) is significant, as well. The group is fluid and changing.

The plot armor around the Scions is not as thick as you seem to think it is, and I never go into an expansion without some concern that some of them might not make it out unscathed. At the same time, to suggest that some percentage of them need to die periodically for things to be realistic is silly. These folks are the best of the best, and it's hardly surprising that they are difficult to take down. That said, Y'shtola's chronic brushes with death are more than a little eye-rolling, I'll grant.

The only character I know will never die is the WoL, for obvious reasons. Anyone else? Even Y'shtola? Fair game. Do I think it's LIKELY they'll die? Not really. Do I think it would be absurd if none of them die? No, I don't think that either - they're tenacious bastards, and for them to pull through even against overwhelming odds is what heroic fantasy is all about.

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Okay,this is where i’ll heavily disagree. Yes they’re strong, but the fact of the matter is in ShB we face foes on a completely different scale than ever before, yet they’re all fine even when they’re literally ticking time bombs. They’re plot armor is pretty huge. They literally have the time to go around Norvrandt again despite their whole, on a time limit problem. Graha probably has more plot armor than Yshtola now seeing what happened in both 5.0 and 5.3. It’s not about heroic fantasy it’s about keeping the plot consistent and coherent.What’s silly is them being able to easily solve every single problem that’s come their way this expansion without any sort of consequence.What was one impactful consequence for the protags this expansion?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What was one impactful consequence for the protags this expansion?

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Why do we need "impactful consequences" at every turn? They can just be there as characters. I enjoyed seeing them interact and have some fun moments in the story, and there was serious emotional development as well. Thancred and Ryne went through a lot, and Tesleen's death had a big impact on Alisaie. G'raha waited a hundred years to save us, and nearly lost his chance - and sure it turned out okay in the end, but you can still appreciate just how much he went through along the way.

The story isn't somehow a waste of time just because nobody got killed or physically injured along the way.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Why do we need "impactful consequences" at every turn? They can just be there as characters. I enjoyed seeing them interact and have some fun moments in the story, and there was serious emotional development as well. Thancred and Ryne went through a lot, and Tesleen's death had a big impact on Alisaie. G'raha waited a hundred years to save us, and nearly lost his chance - and sure it turned out okay in the end, but you can still appreciate just how much he went through along the way.

The story isn't somehow a waste of time just because nobody got killed or physically injured along the way.

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Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.I'm not asking for impactful consequences at "every turn". But if an expansion is advertised the way it was, again that being dark and gritty, it really should have consequences and not just be wholesome moments simulator."

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas.

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Not talking about her constantly is not the same thing as forgetting her.

Of course it's going to have a lasting impact even if she's not dwelling on it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.

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The fact that we have a semi-functional cure for Tempering can be directly traced back to Alisae's connection to Tesleen and the others stationed at The Inn at Journey's Head and her wanting to heal them from their corruption by the Sin Eaters in 5.X, what are you even talking about?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.

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She talks about Tesleen as a Trust in Malika's Well, too. She has a dialogue about doing it for Tesleen, so she's not forgotten at all. It's sort of like the Ga Bu thing, just because he's not constantly mentioned doesn't mean the narrative has forgotten about him. Heck, her stubborn (and succesful) attempts to cure Halric are implied to be because of her, too, since Tesleen gave her life to give him more time to live.

These moments ARE impactful for the characters, even if they're not mentioned constantly, like how Alphinaud's failure with the Crystal Braves is still influencing his actions even if they haven't been mentioned since HW.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

I'd like to see the Scions survive 6.0, but then go their separate ways. They can be brought back into the story if needed at times (sort of like Cid and Nero) but they wouldn't be our adventuring party anymore.

And I say this as someone whose favourite character is a Scion. I also agree that there's probably not much they can do with them post-EW, but I'd like to see them get nice retirements and be happy.

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I agree with this so much, especially to make room for the "B-team" Scions: Coultenet and Hoary Boulder had their own off-screen adventures in Thavnair and even completed the Trials of the Brave (!) while escorting F'Lahminn. They're our perfect guides to Thavnair. Poor Arenvald has been side-lined to the SMN lvl 80 quest...

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Originally Posted by GoldStarz

The fact that we have a semi-functional cure for Tempering can be directly traced back to Alisae's connection to Tesleen and the others stationed at The Inn at Journey's Head and her wanting to heal them from their corruption by the Sin Eaters in 5.X, what are you even talking about?

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Yes but Alisaie herself got shoved to the side after that. She semi absent in il mheg,absent in raktika, and absent for a majority of the return to amh araeng. We don’t get to see any of the actual impact until the patches where she returns to halric and even then it’s meh.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On a completely different perspective, I don't see any need to remove the current cast or "make way for new characters" at all.

If it actively suits the narrative for someone to leave or die, that's fine. But they don't need to move on just because they are long-term cast members - quite the opposite. They keep a consistent picture of "our character and their group of friends" who have been there since the beginning of our journey.

We might strike out on our own in 6.1, but I don't want it to be because everyone else was incapacitated in our final battle. That's unnecessary and cruel after they've come so far with us.

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And if it actively suits the narrative to have them incapacitated in the final battle? Why is that off bounds? I don't see it as unnecessary or cruel.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I mean, the result of him still doing his job is that he spends long sections of Stormblood's story offscreen because he can't teleport like everyone else does. That's a pretty big consequence when compared to Y'shtola's blindness. All that has meant is that she has to burn aether to see, which is absolutely not going to cost her anything during the scope of FFXIV's story.

There's also Minfilia, who gave up her body and soul to Hydaelyn. And while the writers took great pains to distance everything Minfilia-related from the revelation that Hydaelyn is a primal, it's not hard to believe that she was tempered all the way up to her "suicide via passing the torch" moment. And the result of that whole mess is that the writers barely used her at all, and even took steps to write their way out of using her (100 years have passed since the Flood of Light, reincarnations in name only, the aforementioned passing of the torch story focusing entirely on the character receiving the torch, etc...).

I don't think I'll ever not be bitter about that, lol. I suppose it's a bit hypocritical of me to want them to hit the undo button on that one—I'm over here advocating that they hit the redo button on the Exarch's death, after all.

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She gives indications of being tempered, that are clearer in e.g. the French version. I suspect a point of differentiation in how Hydaelyn/Zodiark temper, compared to other primals, may lie in that point regarding the rendering of the soul in an umbral state. I believe it's possible they simply don't do that, and just proceed with the elemental/energy binding to establish an affinity to them. I know a lot of people attach a connotation of enslavement to the concept, but honestly we don't have the full picture yet, so I think it's best not to hold to the assumption that it always involves that. The civilisation that birthed primals may have had more sophisticated designs for how to summon them that affect such aspects.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

If they were going to do that the most optimal moment probably would’ve been either with Emet or Elidibus, it’s something i had actually been hoping for but guess they’re not interested in that :/(your last point i mean)

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I'm woolly on this, really. I don't mean a literal death. No one else pays my sub! But a lateral one is up for grabs, for sure. Perhaps a mostly dead. But yes, probably not what they're aiming for (bleh). I'm really just being cheeky with the Dawn (Father-but-I'm-a-mother)/Azim/Azem thing, just stretching for angles is all.

Spoiler for Guild Wars 2, of all things:

Happened in Guild Wars 2, mind. Your main char died a death because stupid happened, and had to get out of a bad place and back to life. Strings were pulled, cards were played. I was a necromancer anyway, it was all in good fun. Frankly, my only quibble was not being able to Raise Self. I'm not opposed to it happening anywhere else.

Eh, not really fussed, no ponies in the race. What will be will be and I'll probably end up buying something from the Mog Station.

Or they're telling me in a roundabout way Emet's back for my WoL. I'm good with that. It's probably not that. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Ceridwenae

I'm woolly on this, really. I don't mean a literal death. No one else pays my sub! But a lateral one is up for grabs, for sure. Perhaps a mostly dead. But yes, probably not what they're aiming for (bleh). I'm really just being cheeky with the Dawn (Father-but-I'm-a-mother)/Azim/Azem thing, just stretching for angles is all.

Spoiler for Guild Wars 2, of all things:

Happened in Guild Wars 2, mind. Your main char died a death because stupid happened, and had to get out of a bad place and back to life. Strings were pulled, cards were played. I was a necromancer anyway, it was all in good fun. Frankly, my only quibble was not being able to Raise Self. I'm not opposed to it happening anywhere else.

Eh, not really fussed, no ponies in the race. What will be will be and I'll probably end up buying something from the Mog Station.

Or they're telling me in a roundabout way Emet's back for my WoL. I'm good with that. It's probably not that. :cool:

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Yeah my whole idea was maybe either emet or elidibus would yank our soul out and we’d get a 1 on 1 finally with Zodiark but alas it didn’t happen :c

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yeah my whole idea was maybe either emet or elidibus would yank our soul out and we’d get a 1 on 1 finally with Zodiark but alas it didn’t happen :c

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I won't deny that Emet or Elidibus had plans for the WOL, but it was pretty clear that weren't looking for you have your soul yanked out. They also would have scoffed at the idea that the WOL would fight Zodiark, as they see Zodiark as a literal god above men.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I won't deny that Emet or Elidibus had plans for the WOL, but it was pretty clear that weren't looking for you have your soul yanked out. They also would have scoffed at the idea that the WOL would fight Zodiark, as they see Zodiark as a literal god above men.

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I didn’t mean 1 on 1 as in...we fight him. I meant 1 on 1 as in finally have a conversation with him lol. I think it could’ve been a potential plot point, especially given the whole Azem thing. 5.3 was just rushed and changed so who knows what could’ve happened :/

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes but Alisaie herself got shoved to the side after that. She semi absent in il mheg,absent in raktika, and absent for a majority of the return to amh araeng. We don’t get to see any of the actual impact until the patches where she returns to halric and even then it’s meh.

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The scions are an ensemble cast. You can't have every character in the forefront of the story (other than the player character/WOL) all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

The scions are an ensemble cast. You can't have every character in the forefront of the story (other than the player character/WOL) all the time.

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Right, but at that point it was really only development for thancred and ryne. Urianger had none, Yshtola’s was solely raktika, alphy’s solely kholusia. It just felt really dry.

NGL, reading this thread talk about lack of Major Character Death's in SHB while re watching the scene where Minfilia finally passed on for good gave me whiplash.

The Scions original leader actually did die for real and pass on in Shadowbringers, feels weird that people seem to forget that sometimes.

Maybe that just shows how much more invested people ended up in Ryne compared to the original.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

NGL, reading this thread talk about lack of Major Character Death's in SHB while re watching the scene where Minfilia finally passed on for good gave me whiplash.

The Scions original leader actually did die for real and pass on in Shadowbringers, feels weird that people seem to forget that sometimes.

Maybe that just shows how much more invested people ended up in Ryne compared to the original.

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I think it’s moreso the fact she hasn’t really been around since HW. You could argue she was dead the moment she became “word of the mother”. The ShB scene was just the final nail in the coffin. Idk if the talk is moreso about character deaths than it is people just asking for consequences for the main cast.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

NGL, reading this thread talk about lack of Major Character Death's in SHB while re watching the scene where Minfilia finally passed on for good gave me whiplash.

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I honestly forgot that was kind of a major moment because I've been thinking of her as dead since HW, but you're right, it was pretty pivotal!

It feels like much of Shadowbringers also had the Scions, to varying degrees, coming to terms with the things happening around them and making peace with some things that have happened to them, or to people close to them. In that regard, I feel like we've been witness to those characters experiencing some of the consequences of their actions in the past throughout the 5.x series.

I also just don't think dying neeeeeds to be one of the consequences lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Right, but at that point it was really only development for thancred and ryne. Urianger had none, Yshtola’s was solely raktika, alphy’s solely kholusia. It just felt really dry.

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Urianger had loads of screen time and the most personality he's shown in ages. I particularly liked the way he and Thancred interact and bounce off each other.

People don't need to be suffering to build character.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Urianger had loads of screen time and the most personality he's shown in ages. I particularly liked the way he and Thancred interact and bounce off each other.

People don't need to be suffering to build character.

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I want to echo this comment, because Thancred and Urianger are at the point of cop buddy comedy. This wouldn't have been possible without Urianger's Shadowbringer's development.

In fact their relationship works so well, I'm hoping if we have to do another solo duty in 5.5 or 5.55 as another character, that it's as one of them doing banter while fighting their way out of trouble.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The characters don't have to die.

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Yes, they do. I actually love your post. I'd love if the screenwriters could come up with some sort of long term handicap that keeps our heroes out of the storyline. Yet, since it's a magical world, and since we already have an amputee fighting at comparable battle strength to the rest of the cast, the requests for magitek prosthetics and the like would just be incessant. The playerbase wouldn't buy it. "Oh, Thancred lost a leg? Why don't the Sharlayans give him a prosthetic. I mean, we have psychic funnels that shoot lasers, why not a robotic leg?"

As for sending a Scion back to the First, well, I'm sure that's what Y'shtola's hoping to achieve, since she wants to get with her Manther Daddy, but they have to make the mode of travel believable, after the entire hassle they just spent eons driving into us. I could only like that if it was done well, and I'm of the mind that if they take that approach, they'll just take the road of, "Don't think too hard, it's a fantasy." Like, bish, you just spent an entire expansion showing me how painstaking it is to cross the rift both body and soul. Even had an original soul comment that it was something beyond them. You really just gonna let this blind chick cross, who is dead three times over? UGH!

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks. Perhaps that's the only way they can perceive it, but the need for character death isn't something we're asking for lightly. I know it seems that way, but the fact of the matter is, is that they have never had the guts to truly kill off any of the main cast. Yes, I know Papalymo is a 1.0 character, but until I see some fact about him having more screen time than any of the other scions, then he might as well have been second string(Obviously more screen time from 1.0 up until his death).

Haurchefant's truth is that he was the one hospitable Ishgardian, pretty much until Heavensward. I knew he had scriptwriter's doom from the time I completed the quests involving him the first time around in Coerthas. He wasn't a main character though, just an easy to like one.

In my opinion, none of the cast have strong tells for scriptwriter's doom currently, but that's because we've gone for so long without being shown any real danger. When I say real danger, I mean danger for the main cast. We've seen them knocked off their feet a few times. We've seen them argue against a man who created god. We've seen them on the lam from a poison arrow or what have you. They come about every time, bright eyed and bushy tailed. Ready to exposit information and tell the WoL to get some rest(take a break player, your NPC parasocial commands!).

We've even seen the villains bring them back from their doom. It might as well be a slice of life anime at this point. What is FFXIV? Love Hina with some swords? We need stakes! (Steak Liara, so much steak....)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks.

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That is, unfortunately, an issue that has been common around these parts for years. It's why I generally only post here before and after a new patch or expansion is due to go live.

I suspect there's a considerable amount of over investment in specific characters, too. I'm personally more interested in a compelling story in a similar vein to ARR and HW where the stakes felt high and consequences existed. If the finale marks the end of the main plot threads that began way back in ARR then it just makes sense to me to embrace that particular style of storytelling once more. Especially if we're supposedly dealing with a potential world wide apocalyptic threat far beyond any other that we've seen thus far.

I've yet to see anybody ask for death for the sake of death. Yet Final Fantasy games never really shy away from killing off major characters. With such a large cast and plenty of room for it to expand and refresh itself in the future...I really don't see it as the worst thing ever for one or two major deaths to occur amongst the main cast.

Traditionally, the single player Final Fantasy games worked with a much smaller number of characters after all. It happened there, so it stands to reason that it can happen here too.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks.

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Tis gotten quite off topic from what I tried to start, I do have to admit. Hopefully as long as I keep updating the front page as things are updated the topic will eventually come around. We'll actually have something to specialate from instead of just speculate on.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yes, they do.

. I could only like that if it was done well, and I\\\\'m of the mind that if they take that approach, they\\\\'ll just take the road of, "Don\\\\'t think too hard, it\\\\'s a fantasy." Like, bish, you just spent an entire expansion showing me how painstaking it is to cross the rift both body and soul. Even had an original soul comment that it was something beyond them. You really just gonna let this blind chick cross, who is dead three times over? UGH!

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks. Perhaps that\\\\'s the only way they can perceive it, but the need for character death isn\\\\'t something we\\\\'re asking for lightly. I know it seems that way, but the fact of the matter is, is that they have never had the guts to truly kill off any of the main cast. Yes, I know Papalymo is a 1.0 character, but until I see some fact about him having more screen time than any of the other scions, then he might as well have been second string(Obviously more screen time from 1.0 up until his death).

Haurchefant\\\\'s truth is that he was the one hospitable Ishgardian, pretty much until Heavensward. I knew he had scriptwriter\\\\'s doom from the time I completed the quests involving him the first time around in Coerthas. He wasn\\\\'t a main character though, just an easy to like one.

In my opinion, none of the cast have strong tells for scriptwriter\\\\'s doom currently, but that\\\\'s because we\\\\'ve gone for so long without being shown any real danger. When I say real danger, I mean danger for the main cast. We\\\\'ve seen them knocked off their feet a few times. We\\\\'ve seen them argue against a man who created god. We\\\\'ve seen them on the lam from a poison arrow or what have you. They come about every time, bright eyed and bushy tailed. Ready to exposit information and tell the WoL to get some rest(take a break player, your NPC parasocial commands!).

We\\\\'ve even seen the villains bring them back from their doom. It might as well be a slice of life anime at this point. What is FFXIV? Love Hina with some swords? We need stakes! (Steak Liara, so much steak....)

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I agree with your last part so much lol. People seem to want this to be some slice of life game where we have all these “wholesome cute-filled moments” all the time and the heroes always get their way. What happened to Arr,Hw,and Sb. Where there were actual stakes and characters didn’t get their way all the time. I think a lot of it has to do with SE pandering to the community, seeing how people even to this day still cry about haurchefant lol. Fact of the matter is people need to be okay with actual consequences. It’s not a cute wholesome game. It’s a mature game with sometimes lighthearted moments(what it’s supposed to be anyways). I really hope 5.5 and or 6.0 gives people the wake up call they need that not everything is going to go their way.

The multiple fake-out deaths are the part that really bug me. You can get away with one, but 2 or 3 get tiresome fast. Even the "omg, girl, you can't do that" warning from Matoya regarding her sight has kind of lost any concern that it will actually have any long-term consquences. She has sooo much plot armor that anything that happens to her will never be taken at face-value at this point.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Which cultures believe in 6 and 7? :o Never heard that before! Intrigue maximum!

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"Some Spanish-speaking areas believe cats have seven lives, while Arabic and Turkish mythology give cats six lives." Source

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I agree with your last part so much lol. People seem to want this to be some slice of life game where we have all these “wholesome cute-filled moments” all the time and the heroes always get their way. What happened to Arr,Hw,and Sb. Where there were actual stakes and characters didn’t get their way all the time. I think a lot of it has to do with SE pandering to the community, seeing how people even to this day still cry about haurchefant lol. Fact of the matter is people need to be okay with actual consequences. It’s not a cute wholesome game. It’s a mature game with sometimes lighthearted moments(what it’s supposed to be anyways). I really hope 5.5 and or 6.0 gives people the wake up call they need that not everything is going to go their way.

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SB has the most egregious survival of a character that should have died in the games history, lol.

Gosetsu and Yotsuyu surviving Doman Castle is the hardest the game ever backed out of a consequnce.

Though that really describes base Stormblood in its entirety, only two minor friendly NPC's died and I would bet most players wouldn't even remember there names.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

SB has the most egregious survival of a character that should have died in the games history, lol.

Gosetsu and Yotsuyu surviving Doman Castle is the hardest the game ever backed out of a consequnce.

Though that really describes base Stormblood in its entirety, only two minor friendly NPC's died and I would bet most players wouldn't even remember there names.

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Yeah.

And the whole Nanamo/Uldah situation was cleanly backpedaled to the status quo minus one Raubahn arm. So I wouldn't even really say ARR had consequences.

I mean I guess some random npcs died in the attack on the waking sands but nobody I remember. None of the main scions.

HW did have some. Horsefont died, Ysale died, Moenbryda died late ARR, and Popalymo didn't come back.

But the game has never been super heavy on consequence.

The attack on rhalgr's reach made us go to Doma I guess but the resistance didn't have to abandon their base.

Attacking Zenos in Doma had no negative consequences AT ALL and actually helped us in the long run.

Thancred and Yshtola have ostensibly had consequences of their lifestream dips but it never seems to actually pose a hinderance to them. Thancred can't use aether? he can still punch out a giant during the grand tourney or be super spy or badass gunbreaker tank etc.

Actual consequences are the exception in this story not the rule, and it's not just SHB that's written this way.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It might as well be a slice of life anime at this point.

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You'd certainly be forgiven for that given some of what was in the final parts of Eden...

This one made me chuckle:

https://i.imgur.com/BHBamTP.png

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah.

And the whole Nanamo/Uldah situation was cleanly backpedaled to the status quo minus one Raubahn arm. So I wouldn't even really say ARR had consequences.

I mean I guess some random npcs died in the attack on the waking sands but nobody I remember. None of the main scions.

HW did have some. Horsefont died, Ysale died, Moenbryda died late ARR, and Popalymo didn't come back.

But the game has never been super heavy on consequence.

The attack on rhalgr's reach made us go to Doma I guess but the resistance didn't have to abandon their base.

Attacking Zenos in Doma had no negative consequences AT ALL and actually helped us in the long run.

Thancred and Yshtola have ostensibly had consequences of their lifestream dips but it never seems to actually pose a hinderance to them. Thancred can't use aether? he can still punch out a giant during the grand tourney or be super spy or badass gunbreaker tank etc.

Actual consequences are the exception in this story not the rule, and it's not just SHB that's written this way.

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I’ve seen people make a big deal about the Sylph that died in waking sands attack(not that i personally care that much for it.Arr’s major consequence i’d say is the crystal braves situation, where the scions were supposed to die but the community complained so they brought them back :p barring that though the consequences from that are what ended in papalymo’s downfall, the summoning of shinryu etc etc. HW had the people you mentioned as well. SB had some such as Krile ending up having her echo taken advantage of and used for the resonance experimentation, yotsuyu’s storyline etc etc.ShB though in comparison to even stormblood doesn’t really have as much consequential events happen.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

SB has the most egregious survival of a character that should have died in the games history, lol.

Gosetsu and Yotsuyu surviving Doman Castle is the hardest the game ever backed out of a consequnce.

Though that really describes base Stormblood in its entirety, only two minor friendly NPC's died and I would bet most players wouldn't even remember there names.

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I’d say ARR holds that title where they wanted to kill off all the scions but then backed out of it :p

Have they actually said anything about wanting to actually kill the scions off? Or is that just speculation?

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Have they actually said anything about wanting to actually kill the scions off? Or is that just speculation?

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The ARR thing i believe was from a direct interview a long time ago. They hadn’t planned for them to come back after the flow incident, but community uprising made them change their mind.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’d say ARR holds that title where they wanted to kill off all the scions but then backed out of it :p

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You know sort of grinds my gears about the Ul'dah scenario? Yda and Papalymo are the first to stay behind to hold off the Crystal Braves/Brass Blades.

How did they get away? Oh, they just slipped out amidst the chaos, despite being pinned down and hunted after like the rest of us, crushed their linkpearls, and trotted off to the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Ain't no big thang...

It really makes Y'shtola's idea to bring down the tunnel on top of herself and Thancred even more of an over reaction.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The ARR thing i believe was from a direct interview a long time ago. They hadn’t planned for them to come back after the flow incident, but community uprising made them change their mind.

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Right, because the 5 patches post HW where we are searching for the scions that is planned years in advance was due to community outcry then actual planning...

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks. Perhaps that's the only way they can perceive it, but the need for character death isn't something we're asking for lightly. I know it seems that way, but the fact of the matter is, is that they have never had the guts to truly kill off any of the main cast. Yes, I know Papalymo is a 1.0 character, but until I see some fact about him having more screen time than any of the other scions, then he might as well have been second string(Obviously more screen time from 1.0 up until his death).

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It's pretty easy to dismiss the other side of the argument when you've convinced yourself they're making it up...

Again, if you kill anyone you lose the potential to keep telling stories with them, so death has to be super impactful (Haurchefant), move the plot (Moenbrydia), cutoff future scenarios of their storytelling (Nidhoggs attack would play out differently if Lady Iceheart was around, plus create a more complicated relationship with all primals going forward). Papalymo's death accomplished all of these points by stalling Shinryu, loosing a Scion who had been there from the beginning with Gridania players, and gave Lyse the freedom to go to Doma. Papalymo most importantly would be in the way of Lyse expanding as a character and in Stormblood, so his potential story telling going forward with the plot was diminished, and though heartbreaking, was necessary.

Currently, beyond the argument that "Death is necessary" do I hear any kill the scion supporters saying more than death is a great motivator. How does Y'shotla biting the bullet before going to Thavnairia advance the plot? Or Thancred or Urianger dyeing before Endwalker takes us to the Empire? Or if the big city is Sharalayan killing one of the twins or G'hara before we go there? If you are going to support the death of beloved characters justify it in context of the story, stop espousing philosophy and anime tropes at us.

And if I'm still not clear and seem to be making this up to you, I'm specifically asking you for evidence on how killing anyone will advance the story (plot) significantly and you can't use the excuse that the death will affect the remaining characters emotionally and force them to act because that is a given any time a character dies.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, because the 5 patches post HW where we are searching for the scions that is planned years in advance was due to community outcry then actual planning...

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I'm not 100% on the details, but a lot about Heavensward was hastily put together, because they hadn't expected the major success that came with ARR. So I don't think it was as planned as Stormblood or Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

You know sort of grinds my gears about the Ul'dah scenario? Yda and Papalymo are the first to stay behind to hold off the Crystal Braves/Brass Blades.

How did they get away? Oh, they just slipped out amidst the chaos, despite being pinned down and hunted after like the rest of us, crushed their linkpearls, and trotted off to the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Ain't no big thang...

It really makes Y'shtola's idea to bring down the tunnel on top of herself and Thancred even more of an over reaction.

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I mean it's not like Ul'dah had a big Ala Mhigo refugee population that could easily get them out of the city to the Ala Mhigan Resistence, oh wait...