Patch 5.4 Trailer, Predictions, and Hints

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I expect this not to happen. As Hydaelyn would want to have all the shards resplit to prevent reviving Zodiark (after his 2nd defeat). This theory only works if Zodiark can never be summoned again, but we all know primals can always be resummoned...

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It's very likely Zodiark will be gone for good because all who will know of its existence will be gone or will refuse to ever speak of it to anybody else (us and the Scions). Plus at the end of 5.3, it's mentioned that "the final battle for the fate of this star" is approaching. Meaning that's it, we're not getting any more "fate of the world" scenarios after this, so Zodiark is permanently going to be dealt with, it's not going to come back after this.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's very likely Zodiark will be gone for good because all who will know of its existence will be gone or will refuse to ever speak of it to anybody else (us and the Scions). Plus at the end of 5.3, it's mentioned that "the final battle for the fate of this star" is approaching. Meaning that's it, we're not getting any more "fate of the world" scenarios after this, so Zodiark is permanently going to be dealt with, it's not going to come back after this.

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We can hope, but there is no evidence that all who know of his existence will be gone after the final battle of 6.0. All the narrative has promised is the final battle for the fate of the star, not who continues on afterward.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I expect this not to happen. As Hydaelyn would want to have all the shards resplit to prevent reviving Zodiark (after his 2nd defeat). This theory only works if Zodiark can never be summoned again, but we all know primals can always be resummoned...

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Normal primals can always be re-summoned.

Zodiark was made by ancient masters of creation magic sacrificing half their population though, I doubt sundered mortals are capable of recreating him in his all-powerful 'rewrite the laws of reality' form if he's destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Normal primals can always be re-summoned.

Zodiark was made by ancient masters of creation magic sacrificing half their population though, I doubt sundered mortals are capable of recreating him in his all-powerful 'rewrite the laws of reality' form if he's destroyed.

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Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

The only "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is all Ascians are destroyed, their history lost, and the rejoined worlds are sundered again. Isn't this kind of a tall order?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

The only "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is all Ascians are destroyed, their history lost, and the rejoined worlds are sundered again. Isn't this kind of a tall order?

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Not only is it a tall order, it's one the protagonists (WoL+Scions) seem to be against. Promising to remember Amaurot won't amount to anything if they take the knowledge of its history to their graves.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

The only "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is all Ascians are destroyed, their history lost, and the rejoined worlds are sundered again. Isn't this kind of a tall order?

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I think you mean, unsundered. Cause uhh, to sunder something is to split it. I don't think mortals as they are now could recreate Zodiark. They could summon powerful, lesser versions of him, certainly, but the elder days Zodiark? Nah.

So apparently Void quests in Japanese

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...70/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Erendis

So apparently Void quests in Japanese

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...70/unknown.png

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"Void Revival Plan"

is one of the most aggressively Japanese phrases I've heard in some time.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

So apparently Void quests in Japanese

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...70/unknown.png

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So the speculation is true then?

We're going to bring back the 13th using Eden?

I doubt it's eden related, you don't have to even touch E1 to unlock them

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

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I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

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Thats exactly how I meant it. Since most people are 7/14 rejoined they are growing in their power to resummon Zodiark. If we defeat Zodiark and Hydaelyn doesn't resunder the star, the people will remain 7/14 (or even 8/14 if Fandaniel gets another rejoining) which we know is the needed power levels to resummon Zodiark. And since primals can be resummoned even after they are defeated, and since its a ridiculously tall order to destroy all the Ascians, earse their culture (which we promised to remember), and finally resunder 7 or 8/14 rejoinings so the power level needed isn't there, he has the potential to come back. Also I clarified my statement after you quoted me but was the part of my quote you cut off.

Honestly, this seems like a lot of explaining because I pointed out that there isn't enough evidence that Zodiark can be eradicated from existence.

Lastly, summoning primals is creation magic (the elders and normies). If you still believe that these are two different things you were not paying attention when you went to Amarout.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

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8/14ths. 7 Shards destroyed, our main self on the Source. That's 8/14. With Ardbert, we're now 9/14, with only 5 shards left.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Thats exactly how I meant it. Since most people are 7/14 rejoined they are growing in their power to resummon Zodiark. If we defeat Zodiark and Hydaelyn doesn't resunder the star, the people will remain 7/14 (or even 8/14 if Fandaniel gets another rejoining) which we know is the needed power levels to resummon Zodiark.

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How do we know any of that?

I've seen it said that if Zodiark got over half the shards restored he'd be powerful enough to break free, but that was an assumption based on an in-game source re: the amount of calamities that turned out to be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

And since primals can be resummoned even after they are defeated, and since its a ridiculously tall order to destroy all the Ascians, earse their culture (which we promised to remember), and finally resunder 7 or 8/14 rejoinings so the power level needed isn't there, he has the potential to come back. Also I clarified my statement after you quoted me but was the part of my quote you cut off.

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I mean, the 2nd part of your statement really only works if someone agrees with the 1st part. I don't, hence why I didn't quote it.

A fine "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is that he is killed, that's it. There is no one around who has the time, power, resources or inclination to resummon him in his full glory. There aren't exactly a great deal of 14/14 ancient sorcerers running around with access to councils full of similarly powerful ancient experts, libraries full of ancient knowledge, and cities full of 14/14 ancients to sacrifice as fuel.

Someone might hear about Zodiark and try to summon him for whatever reason, which to be fair could indeed end up being a big problem, but not really any more so than any other primal might end up being depending on how much aether is poured into them.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Lastly, summoning primals is creation magic (the elders and normies). If you still believe that these are two different things you were not paying attention when you went to Amarout.

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You are explicitly told in Amaurot that you have zero capacity to do creation magic. It's also established that anyone, even the WoL, could perform a summoning if they really wanted to.

It follows therefore, that summoning is not the same as creation magic. Might be very loosely related, but it doesn't have the same requirements and it doesn't get the same results.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

8/14ths. 7 Shards destroyed, our main self on the Source. That's 8/14. With Ardbert, we're now 9/14, with only 5 shards left.

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lol, I knew I should have double-checked :)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

You are explicitly told in Amaurot that you have zero capacity to do creation magic. It's also established that anyone, even the WoL, could perform a summoning if they really wanted to.

It follows therefore, that summoning is not the same as creation magic. Might be very loosely related, but it doesn't have the same requirements and it doesn't get the same results.

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I'm pretty sure summoning magic IS meant to be related to Creation magic. While we're told in Amaraut that we don't have the capacity for Creation magic, the one telling us that bases the judgment on the fact that our internal aether reserves are alarmingly weak. But the thing about Summoning, is that the summoners use an EXTERNAL reserve of Aether - crystals, and lots of them. It likely wouldn't even occur to an Ancient to Create in this way. I mean, why bother, when you have internal Aether to spare?

Examples like the final dungeon boss of Akadaemia Anyder and the mention of Ifrita from the side stories seem deliberately placed to indicate "this is how Summoning got started". Not to mention, the whole deal with Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Emet-Selch flat-out states that they are Primals. There's some indication that those, along with Quetzalcoatl were EXPERIMENTAL Creation magic, since their summoning involved complete depletion of an entity's Aether (one person's Aether for Quetz, millions or billions for Zodiark, and an unknown number for Hydaelyn), something which was likely unheard of before times became as desperate as they were.

Unless told otherwise, though, I think it's safe to assume that Summoning is basically Creation magic with an external Aether source, since the summoners lack the internal reserves to do true Creation magic.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Unless told otherwise, though, I think it's safe to assume that Summoning is basically Creation magic with an external Aether source, since the summoners lack the internal reserves to do true Creation magic.

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I'm fine with summoning being a relation, a different route to a similar end-goal makes sense. My main point was that being more restored doesn't really seem to actually amount to much though, even 8/14 of the way there you still register a zero on the ancient magic scale.

The people of the source don't live 8x longer than their shard counterparts, their spells don't do 8x as much damage, they don't have 8x the reserves of internal aether to call upon, it basically just doesn't seem to make any practical difference. You get a denser soul, and a dense soul can be handy for some niche things like absorbing a whole bunch of light aether (although even then that wouldn't have really panned out if we didn't have the whole blessing of light thing going on) but that seems to be, so far at least, pretty much the extent of it.

Really feels like being restored is an all or nothing sort of deal, so the idea that because we're partially restored we're more capable of resummoning Zodiark just doesn't track for me. Being 8/14th restored doesn't make the people of the source 8/14th millennia old ancient sorcerer, they're still regular old mortals with regular old mortal limits.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I'm fine with summoning being a relation, a different route to a similar end-goal makes sense. My main point was that being more restored doesn't really seem to actually amount to much though, even 8/14 of the way there you still register a zero on the ancient magic scale.

The people of the source don't live 8x longer than their shard counterparts, their spells don't do 8x as much damage, they don't have 8x the reserves of internal aether to call upon, it basically just doesn't seem to make any practical difference. You get a denser soul, and a dense soul can be handy for some niche things like absorbing a whole bunch of light aether (although even then that wouldn't have really panned out if we didn't have the whole blessing of light thing going on) but that seems to be, so far at least, pretty much the extent of it.

Really feels like being restored is an all or nothing sort of deal, so the idea that because we're partially restored we're more capable of resummoning Zodiark just doesn't track for me. Being 8/14th restored doesn't make the people of the source 8/14th millennia old ancient sorcerer, they're still regular old mortals with regular old mortal limits.

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But its not an all or nothing deal. It was explicitly stated that 1 more rejoining will put enough aether into the source to awaken Zodiark. Its not about people being more rejoined and what that means for them and/or their power/magic. What I believe has you confused is phraseology of "summoning Zodiark". He already has been summoned, Hydaelyn locked him in the moon, so really more like a charge the aether battery on the source to let Zodiark wake up, then a traditional summon.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But its not an all or nothing deal. It was explicitly stated that 1 more rejoining will put enough aether into the source to awaken Zodiark. Its not about people being more rejoined and what that means for them and/or their power/magic. What I believe has you confused is phraseology of "summoning Zodiark". He already has been summoned, Hydaelyn locked him in the moon, so really more like a charge the aether battery on the source to let Zodiark wake up, then a traditional summon.

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ngl I think if that's what you initially meant you phrased it pretty oddly IMHO. Never mind though.

I don't recall where it was explicitly stated one more rejoining would be enough, if you could point me towards that scene I'd appreciate it. After all, there was an alternate timeline where one more rejoining actually happened, it doesn't seem like it was enough there. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Jandor

snip.

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It's brought up a few times in ARR by the Ascians to show how close they are to realizing their goals, but to be clear an 8th rejoining just lets Zodiark out of the moon. And the alternate timeline clearly represents itself as being in the middle of an apocalypse even if Zodiark isn't seen. Also the passage of time seen in alternate future is explained too, because the summoning of Zodiark is just a delay to the end days and not an actual solution to the end days. The Ancients that follow Venat and summon Hydaelyn explain this.

So most likely the chain of events are as follows: 8th calamity/rejoining is achieved, Zodiark comes out of the moon, Zodiark causes a world of chaos because he can rewrite the rules of existence, because Zodiark is a primal and rewriting consumes aether he drains the star of aether (this is the apocalypse and takes place over a long period of time), the lack of aether leads to the final days (albeit not immediately).

This is why Hydaelyn was summoned in the past, most likely to solve the Zodiark aether follow problem, as apposed to actually confronting Zodiark. Now to further back up this, the WOL in 5.4 remembers the cave painting in Rak'tika where it shows Hydaelyn and Zodiark standing together. This implies that Hydaelyn and Zodiark co-existed and then something happened leading to their confrontation. Furthermore, since Azem didn't participate in summoning Hydaelyn or Zodiark, this is most likely the part of the story Azem did participate in. Hence why we have the Azem stone and think about it while Scions are having another conversation.

So in theory the final days of the past play out like this: Creation magic drains aether from the planet causing the final days, Ancients summon Zodiark to rewrite rules of existence to stop the final days, Zodiark is a primal and even though he saves the world is still draining aether causing the final days to just happen in the future, Ancients tempered to Zodiark refuse to listen to Ancients not tempered about the reality of Zodiark, those Ancients follow Venat because debate and discussion are the corner stone of their culture and now that doesn't happen because of tempering, they summon Hydaelyn specifically to deal with the aether flow problem, then the missing event transpires (here is where Azem is most likely involved with a potential 3rd solution), that event leads to Hydaelyn and Zodiark confrontation, Hydaelyn triumphs and creates the shards so Zodiark can't access his power.

I'm sorry this was a longer answer than you were anticipating, but in my mind all of these bits of lore are inter-related and are coming to fruition.

But why would creation magic drain aether from the planet when they use internal resources?

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Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would creation magic drain aether from the planet when they use internal resources?

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But they don't use internal resources they draw on aether around them. Using internal aether to do creation magic would be killing yourself to make something new. They are clearly abusing creation magic and aether.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would creation magic drain aether from the planet when they use internal resources?

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Zodiark has been established to use the Aether of other beings to fuel his actions. The things he does are so powerful, and so wide in scope that no single individual could possibly have enough internal reserves to fuel them, even with self-sacrifice. The sacrifice of others - BILLIONS of others, or even more depending on what the population of the world was at the time the Ancients enacted plan Zodiark - is par the course for Zodiark. Emet made it plain, too, that while the Ancients cooperated and gave up their lives willingly in order to summon Zodiark and save the world, cooperation of the ones to be sacrificed isn't actually necessary, since they planned on using the new life of the planet to bring back the sacrificed Ancients.

Prior to Zodiark, all known uses of Creation magic did not use external resources, because they were small enough in scope that individuals could comfortably fuel them from their internal resources alone. The Zodiark plan was a desperate and experimental one, but it did work. It also laid the groundwork for modern-day Summoning, given that the Sundered races do not have enough internal Aether to summon without depending on external resources - usually crystals, but sometimes living sacrifices, as well.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would creation magic drain aether from the planet when they use internal resources?

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The Aumarotines use internal resouces, and that is becuae they have the capacity to do it. Everyone else that used creation magic, the beastmen, Ysayle, Yotsuyu, Louisoux had to use external aether for creation magics. that is why the crystals were used so ofthen for those.

You have to understand that the modern day summoning of deiforms is creation magic as priced by beings that don't have the capacity to preform it "safely" using their own Aether.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The Aumarotines use internal resouces, and that is becuae they have the capacity to do it. Everyone else that used creation magic, the beastmen, Ysayle, Yotsuyu, Louisoux had to use external aether for creation magics. that is why the crystals were used so ofthen for those.

You have to understand that the modern day summoning of deiforms is creation magic as priced by beings that don't have the capacity to preform it "safely" using their own Aether.

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My post has nothing to do with current primals summons. Kesey was saying that ancient calamity was caused by ancients using planet's aether. But if ancients used their own aether for creation magic it was not what caused the calamity.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

My post has nothing to do with current primals summons. Kesey was saying that ancient calamity was caused by ancients using planet's aether. But if ancients used their own aether for creation magic it was not what caused the calamity.

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Y'shotla says theorizes that the Ancients use their own aether for creation magic. Her and Alisaie claim the matter needs further study and is then never answered.

But what we can confirm in Amaurot is that the sounds happen and any Ancients near it are they are stripped of their ability to use creation magic.

I know my theory isn't air-tight, but I'm trying to piece together a time line. Even if they are using their personal stores of aether to do creation magic, they are still abusing it to a point that the planet or some other unknown force is trying to take away the creation magic.

We should be more focused on what line did they cross instead of the source of the creation magic.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

We should be more focused on what line did they cross instead of the source of the creation magic.

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I still of the opinion that the creation magic was the line that was crossed here. That somehow the planet was enraged by the existence of godlike entities (or more accurately the hubris that caused) and decided to hijack, regardless of the source of the aether used for it.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I still of the opinion that the creation magic was the line that was crossed here. That somehow the planet was enraged by the existence of godlike entities (or more accurately the hubris that caused) and decided to hijack, regardless of the source of the aether used for it.

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That makes absolutely no sense though.

For one thing, creation magic was natural to the Ancients. We're told even newvorn babes could do it and it came as naturally to them as breathing. Some people had greater or lesser capacity, but every single one of them was born to it. Why would the planet destroy them for something they were naturally gifted with?

Secondly, the statement that the Final Days stripped them of their creation magic is wrong. In fact it made their magic run wild to the point they were creating things uncontrollably. However this was also only a symptom of the Final Days, because what was truly killing the planet is something that's described like life becoming anathema to itself. Every living thing started twisting and dying, and the Lifestream effectively started strangling itself and was on the edge of dying altogether. So why would the planet's solution to supposedly being overtaxed be to completely kill itself and turn the whole world into a barren rock? Even when a similar scenario happened in FFVII the planet's response was to try and destroy humanity, not itself.

Lastly, the Sound that started the apocalypse first appeared in another society on another continent to Amaurot, and systematically continued appearing everywhere outward from that until almost nothing was left. It doesn't make sense for it to be Amaurot's fault when it originated with another civilization entirely.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have been caused by creation magic in SOME way, but this framework of "the Amaurotine abused their power and the world killed them for it" really does not stand up to scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That makes absolutely no sense though.

For one thing, creation magic was natural to the Ancients. We're told even newvorn babes could do it and it came as naturally to them as breathing. Some people had greater or lesser capacity, but every single one of them was born to it. Why would the planet destroy them for something they were naturally gifted with?

Secondly, the statement that the Final Days stripped them of their creation magic is wrong. In fact it made their magic run wild to the point they were creating things uncontrollably. However this was also only a symptom of the Final Days, because what was truly killing the planet is something that's described like life becoming anathema to itself. Every living thing started twisting and dying, and the Lifestream effectively started strangling itself and was on the edge of dying altogether. So why would the planet's solution to supposedly being overtaxed be to completely kill itself and turn the whole world into a barren rock? Even when a similar scenario happened in FFVII the planet's response was to try and destroy humanity, not itself.

Lastly, the Sound that started the apocalypse first appeared in another society on another continent to Amaurot, and systematically continued appearing everywhere outward from that until almost nothing was left. It doesn't make sense for it to be Amaurot's fault when it originated with another civilization entirely.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have been caused by creation magic in SOME way, but this framework of "the Amaurotine abused their power and the world killed them for it" really does not stand up to scrutiny.

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You have some facts here, most of this is just theory. Emet himself claims that the final days are the product of their hubris. Clearly the Ancients crossed a line even though what those details aren't manifest (hence the previous discussion points). The Amaurotan npcs for first main story quest tell how any Ancients exposed to the sound (which isn't one big event but seems to happen numerous times) does strip an Ancient of their ability to use creation magic. As we know little other than the planet caused the sound(s) then takes away creation magic kind of points the figure as the route of the problem.

Granted we could really use some clarification here, but I suspect that we won't be informed of the actual cause of the sound(s) till either we remember Azem's memories or Venat (who may still exist as primal as the Heart of Hydaelyn) informs us.

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Emet himself claims that the final days are the product of their hubris.

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That depends what he was referring to. First off, the inter-Amaurotine conflict that produced the sundering was obviously the Ancient's own fault, and could be classified as hubris in a number of different regards. For the calamity that brought about Zodiark's summoning to begin with, if you go through Amaurot, clearly people have some idea of what's going on, but the Amaurotines and the Convocation are failing to act. The question of whether they should intercede in the affairs of other nations is legitimate, but in this case they do nothing until the issue has literally arrived on their doorstep. That itself could be considered a failing of their hubris.

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The Amaurotan npcs for first main story quest tell how any Ancients exposed to the sound (which isn't one big event but seems to happen numerous times) does strip an Ancient of their ability to use creation magic. As we know little other than the planet caused the sound(s) then takes away creation magic kind of points the figure as the route of the problem.

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Except that's not what they say about it. Go back and read though the related dialog, one of the side effects of the Sound was making their creation magic become wild and uncontrollable, leading them to spontaneously create nightmares and monstrosities due to their fears. It didn't take away creation magic, it kicked it into overdrive. And again this was only a side effect of the Sound, the primary effect was causing life and the Lifestream to become self-destructive and suicidal, ultimately leading to the death of everything.

Moreover, we don't actually know that the planet itself caused the Sound, just that it came from within the planet. The fact that it led to the planet's death is suggestive that it doesn't originate from the aetherial sea itself, but something else.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

It's brought up a few times in ARR by the Ascians to show how close they are to realizing their goals, but to be clear an 8th rejoining just lets Zodiark out of the moon. And the alternate timeline clearly represents itself as being in the middle of an apocalypse even if Zodiark isn't seen. Also the passage of time seen in alternate future is explained too, because the summoning of Zodiark is just a delay to the end days and not an actual solution to the end days. The Ancients that follow Venat and summon Hydaelyn explain this.

So most likely the chain of events are as follows: 8th calamity/rejoining is achieved, Zodiark comes out of the moon, Zodiark causes a world of chaos because he can rewrite the rules of existence, because Zodiark is a primal and rewriting consumes aether he drains the star of aether (this is the apocalypse and takes place over a long period of time), the lack of aether leads to the final days (albeit not immediately).

<snip>

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The 8th rejoining world was apocalyptic because there had just been a rejoining. They do tend to be rather calamitous events. ;)

I don't think we can really be sure that Zodiark passively consumes aether like current primals do either. Hydaelyn was created using much the same method and has been knocking about for several thousand years seemingly without causing any aether related issues.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But its not an all or nothing deal. It was explicitly stated that 1 more rejoining will put enough aether into the source to awaken Zodiark.

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Explicitly stated where?

Also, early-game quotes about the Ascians' plans are shaky at best - for all the writers try to look like they planned things all along, I would say there has clearly been a shift in the Ascians' intended goals (if indeed the writers had a plan beyond "say ominous things about being close to it and we'll work out the details later") and they've done their best to smooth over the join, but the cracks still show.

Also, the fact that G'raha says nothing about Zodiark's reawakening having happened in the post-eighth-Calamity timeline makes it even less likely to be true. He's been working with a group that knows about Hydaelyn and Zodiark and has done research into the cause of the Calamity to the point of identifying the rejoined shard. I don't think Zodiark's awakening would escape their notice, and I don't think the writers would want to not mention it happening because it would be a great way to raise the stakes even higher. Even more so with the "hopeful epilogue" to the other timeline's story in Tales From the Shadows.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The 8th rejoining world was apocalyptic because there had just been a rejoining. They do tend to be rather calamitous events. ;)

I don't think we can really be sure that Zodiark passively consumes aether like current primals do either. Hydaelyn was created using much the same method and has been knocking about for several thousand years seemingly without causing any aether related issues.

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Although this is a conjecture, Venat specifically states that she must be the one to become The Heart of Hydaelyn, I assume, if my theory is correct, it is to make sure Hydaelyn doesn't have the desire to siphon aether like we see other primals. And possibly not temper people either.

Zodiark, on the other hand, could have had this aspect overlooked. I say this because what we know states that Convocation didn't see that summoning Zodiark would only delay the end days instead of adverting them. Meaning, so how any change that Zodiark makes to stop the end days, extends, but also sets up the problem leading to the end days anyway. So what makes Zodiark different from Hydaelyn that it brings the end of the world anyway?

So facts we know are: the sound(s) come from the planet, the planet is the source of aether, all primals (Hydaelyn as the only possible exception) consume the aether of their environment (among other sources), Zodiark is summoned to stop end days but is completely connected to the planet, but the process of changing the laws of reality to stop the final days sets off the process again to restart the final days. No evidence is given that Zodiark would function differently that any other normal primal, other than he is an elder primal so his scope of power is just well beyond normal primals.

This is how I came to believe that aether consumption is the key triggering the final days. And to continue the logic, it had to be creation magic and the abuse of aether caused by casting it that leads to the final days in the first place. And, until patch 5.5 gives us a better explanation, the towers Fandaniel placed are possibly siphoning planet aether to Zodiark on the moon.

So given what we do know, has informed my answers for what we don't know.

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Although this is a conjecture, Venat specifically states that she must be the one to become The Heart of Hydaelyn, I assume, if my theory is correct, it is to make sure Hydaelyn doesn't have the desire to siphon aether like we see other primals. And possibly not temper people either.

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Why exactly would Venat specifically mantling Hydaelyn prevent that?

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I say this because what we know states that Convocation didn't see that summoning Zodiark would only delay the end days instead of adverting them.

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We have no idea why the Anyder posit this.

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but the process of changing the laws of reality to stop the final days sets off the process again to restart the final days.

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We have nothing at all stating this, that what Zodiark did would somehow cause the Final Days again, based on his actions.

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No evidence is given that Zodiark would function differently that any other normal primal, other than he is an elder primal so his scope of power is just well beyond normal primals.

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No evidence is given that Hydaelyn functions any differently from Zodiark. The idea that she doesn't maintain herself through consuming aether comes about purely due to the fact that she's been getting weaker over time, which is only a contradiction on it's face and ignores that we have instances of her consuming aether to empower herself anyway.

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This is how I came to believe that aether consumption is the key triggering the final days. And to continue the logic, it had to be creation magic and the abuse of aether caused by casting it that leads to the final days in the first place. And, until patch 5.5 gives us a better explanation, the towers Fandaniel placed are possibly siphoning planet aether to Zodiark on the moon.

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So aether consumption was the cause of the Final Days, which the planet sought to rectify by eliminating huge quantities of aether by leaving the world a barren wasteland, which the Convocation halted by sacrificing huge amounts of aether, which they also contributed to by sacrificing huge amounts of aether, which was solved by Hydaelyn consuming a huge amount of aether to be summoned, which has somehow never reappeared again despite entire Umbral Eras being caused by the mass siphoning of aether from the land?

And this is all ignoring that the Ancients used their own personal aether for creation magic to begin with, not the planet's aether. Also, a better explanation for the towers already exists, namely that instead of them beaming aether from the planet to Zodiark, they're beaming aether from Zodiark to the planet, hence the tempering (I don't think this is exactly correct, but it's more mechanically sound based on what we've seen them do than the opposite).

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Originally Posted by Veloran

No evidence is given that Hydaelyn functions any differently from Zodiark. The idea that she doesn't maintain herself through consuming aether comes about purely due to the fact that she's been getting weaker over time, which is only a contradiction on it's face and ignores that we have instances of her consuming aether to empower herself anyway.

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Hydaelyn only consumes the aether of those willing to give it up. She is weakening over time because she isn't absorbing the aether from the world around them like every other primal is. This clearly sets her apart. No such evidence exists for Zodiark, other than it is clear that his power is defined by how many worlds have been rejoined.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

So aether consumption was the cause of the Final Days, which the planet sought to rectify by eliminating huge quantities of aether by leaving the world a barren wasteland, which the Convocation halted by sacrificing huge amounts of aether, which they also contributed to by sacrificing huge amounts of aether, which was solved by Hydaelyn consuming a huge amount of aether to be summoned, which has somehow never reappeared again despite entire Umbral Eras being caused by the mass siphoning of aether from the land?

And this is all ignoring that the Ancients used their own personal aether for creation magic to begin with, not the planet's aether. Also, a better explanation for the towers already exists, namely that instead of them beaming aether from the planet to Zodiark, they're beaming aether from Zodiark to the planet, hence the tempering (I don't think this is exactly correct, but it's more mechanically sound based on what we've seen them do than the opposite).

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The aether consumed to summon Hydaelyn and Zodiark comes at the expense of the people--that uses their aether. This is the tragic sacrifice both were required to make to get their solutions to save world via elder primals. Also the planet could have just been cutting off access to aether, to idk, stop the abuse of it--instead of destroying it. And the Umbral eras although were massive aether drains, were in comparison to what would have happened in Ancient times, just 1/14 to scale.

And the towers are clearly pulsing to the sky. Zodiark isn't passing aether down, it is going up. Wouldn't you want the prayers and aether of the tempered to go to the primal not away from him?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Hydaelyn only consumes the aether of those willing to give it up. She is weakening over time because she isn't absorbing the aether from the world around them like every other primal is. This clearly sets her apart. No such evidence exists for Zodiark, other than it is clear that his power is defined by how many worlds have been rejoined.

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Off tangent completely, but this brought to mind something...perhaps Sharlayan is so similar to Amaurot because it was made by Venat, or by people given visions of Amaurot itself?

Repeating a question that you seem to have missed the first time because it went up while you were in the middle of writing a post.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But its not an all or nothing deal. It was explicitly stated that 1 more rejoining will put enough aether into the source to awaken Zodiark.

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Where was this explicitly stated?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Off tangent completely, but this brought to mind something...perhaps Sharlayan is so similar to Amaurot because it was made by Venat, or by people given visions of Amaurot itself?

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I'm willing to bet Sharlayan is either a legacy civilization of the Ancients, or they did the research and know what the Ancients know. This could have very well come to pass with help by Venat. I'm hoping we hit Sharlayan in the expansion, as this gives us the set up to get these answers.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Repeating a question that you seem to have missed the first time because it went up while you were in the middle of writing a post.



Where was this explicitly stated?

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This is implicitly stated by the Ascians in ARR. If they can accomplish 1 more rejoining with 1 more calamity, they will be able to free Zodiark. This why the plot constantly has us stopping their 8th calamity plans. First with the ultima weapon. Then with their meddling with the dragonsong war. Then giving Nidhog's eyes to summon Shinryu to complicate the liberation of Ala Mhigo. Then the black rose set up with the first's flood of light. Then Elidibus and his warriors of light. Now onto Fandaniel and his towers.

Well, the Bad Future apparently continued onward as per Tales from the Shadow's An Umpromised Tomorrow.

An Eighth Umbral Calamity would not actually be the an instant win for the Ascians' grand plans; it would just (probably) kill us and leave the world we know in ruin. "Just."

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Originally Posted by Kesey

This is implicitly stated by the Ascians in ARR.

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Implicitly is not explicitly - by definition it is the opposite.

You cannot claim it to be explicitly stated unless they have outright said it will happen, and to my knowledge, they have not.

And as I wrote the first time I asked, the Ascians' plans in ARR seem off compared to everything that has happened since.

I don't know if the quotes in ARR are re-interpretable or not, but I don't think there's been talk of Zodiark's imminent awakening since we started talking about shards and rejoinings.

And again, if not stopping the Eighth Calamity will directly allow Zodiark's revival, that's a stake worth mentioning above and beyond just preventing earthly destruction in the Source. Why the focus on the post-apocalypse being "man fighting his fellow man" as the worst thing that happened if the dark god is unleashed?