Can't be balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
If you have viable support skills like The Bole or Ewer, then either it becomes an essential part of their skillset, in which case being on RNG is a massive problem, or it becomes inconsequential fluff, which is what it was.
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06-01-2020, 04:51 PMSeraphor
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06-02-2020, 12:11 AMCeasaria
The old cards system was balanced around 3 offensive cards and 3 non-offensive cards.
Some were more desirable than other, but it was really up to the player to decide how he wanted to play depending of many factors as Content, party composition, player mindset (preferences) and what's happening right now in the fight.
Contrary to any other job system, AST couldn't plan exactly everything.
The objective was to use the best appropriate card at the right moment, and to achieve that you had to control the best you can and fast you can the RNG.
You may not like it, but it was not designed to be a 100% predictible system, which was unique compared to the others jobs.
You could adapt to some tough situations by giving a Bole or a Ewer if needed.
And, because of that, this unpredictive system was for me light years ahead from any other jobs.
The richness and depth of the old system gave me pleasure for more than thousand hours during SB in a various of contents.
I was still learning many things across the months because like I said, it was played differently with the plethore of parameters to take into account (+ adjustements with patches).
Not only that, but it had synergy with time abilities too, which enforced the depth of the job.
One of the strong consequence of this system (and unique once again), is I was never bored, ever, because each content, each fight felt different. The RNG of the cards system allowed this.
The cards system could have been balanced by tweaking values, for exemple Balance reduced to 6% mono, 3% AOE (to give more room to Spear and Arrow), Spire could have been replaced.
And if we wanted to have a bit more predictivity, adding one or more skills allowing to control more the RNG would have been a good option.
I was always thinking the old cards system as Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's sure the new card system is no more like that, but more like a traditionnal card game as War, you know a card game where you have nothing to do, no decision making, no depth, etc.
So, please stop to reject with hate the old card system because you had very unpleasant moments during your journey in HW and SB (from what I have read on another thread)
Seraphor, It was just not a system for you ! -
06-02-2020, 12:25 AMSeraphor
And please, try not to reject all criticism of the old card system, just because you liked it.
This place is enough of an echo chamber as it is. -
06-02-2020, 01:14 AMCrushnightYea i'm not going to sit here and say old system didn't have flaws, biggest one is consistentcy(other flaws include 2 chances to get what want, Lord/Lady were a coin flip on top of dice roll rather than set like now, Noct being Noct) but they could've been ways to mitigate it more without flinging whole thing out, Dnc's dance steps show a way to let Ast have an ability to pick exactly what card they want, could've been on a 2 min cd, this mitigates the can't draw bole when it might be useful or balance when it's best etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
The old system wasn't impossible to balance it was just harder, too hard for the developers to deal with.
I mean what's harder to balance a 5 Dot healer + 3 Dot healer + 1 Dot healer or 3 1 Dot healers.
They took the easy way out across the board with healers, dealing with balancing 2 fairies with different buffs which offer different degrees of usefulness, too difficult, a single fairy set of abilities much easier, 6 different card buffs, whoa I need Einstein levels of intelligence to balance that, 1 simple consistent buff, ah much easier, aoe DoTs becomes nightmare to balance in multi target fights, better get rid of them.
Am I jaded? yes, yes I am, and it is because they won't talk about it I want to understand their mentality not guess at what they want/wanted saying but what about people who like it now explains nothing about why. -
06-02-2020, 01:40 AMCrushnightI don't blame Seraphor for defending the new system, he enjoys it and it is a discussion so he is welcome to chime in where ever he wants, I just butt heads with him due to the language he uses at points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
I.E. the it's impossible to balance old system is incorrect, it was just harder.
But also have to put in his shoes slightly, the new system is divisive and people are more likely to say stuff when something upsets them so when it comes to feedback on it when the majority of vocal people say negative feedback it gets a bit iffy whether or not SE will listen to them, i'm sure lovers bow mage can attest to that on the lead up to SB, so getting out positive feedback is needed or a system may change for the worse for those that like it.
Mnk is more unanimously disliked atm than Ast is but Ast is still up there with Bow mage and ShB sch. Question is what would SE take on board the silent people who are enjoying the changes or the vocal negative, we won't know the answer until April/May next year at the earliest (most likely later due to Convid delay and everything) when media embargo starts being lifted for 6.0 -
06-02-2020, 01:48 AMRisvertasashiWhile I'm not on the forums 100% of the time... and yes bow mage did have defenders (mostly of the 'git gud' variety)... When SB rolled around I never saw anyone going "Nooo give me back my cast times and limited mobility and GCD clipping!". Even if there was a thread or two, they certainly weren't popping up later, and you don't see them popping now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
Whereas we're about a year into ShB and we still have people that want the old card system back. A significant number of people that are active here on the forums. (Though I also think that if it were reverted, we'd see complaints about RNG not giving people Balance once again too)
So basically, I don't think the two situations are really comparable. -
06-02-2020, 02:52 AMTulzschaWhat about something in between? Saaayy Redrawing guarantees a card with a different symbol, or being able to lock out cards you don't foresee a use for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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06-02-2020, 03:00 AMRisvertasashiThis is one change that was actually made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulzscha
There was a time where redrawing could give you the exact same card. Unfettered RNG. After much feedback, SE changed this so that redraw would guarantee a different card.
Basic problem still applies, though. Most high end players just fished for Balance. Even if you did want a Bole for a tankbuster or such, you couldn't reliably get it.
If you give the ability to lock out cards, you might as well just let the AST pick what they want. Or do what SE did and just homogenize the cards. -
06-02-2020, 05:40 AMSeraphorIf the RNG system requires tools to remove all of the RNG, then what is the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulzscha
This is my main issue.
The old system was all fishing for Balances, that was the optimum way to play it, and everyone wanted tools to manipulate the RNG so that you could more reliably fish for Balances.
Spire was exclusively Royal Road. Bole was redrawn, always. Ewer was Royal Road or occasionally used on yourself for MP. (because AST is seemingly always starved for MP, but that's another issue)
These were your 'modifying' cards, to draw a comparison to the current system, they were your seals that feed Divination (your AoE buff)
The three DPS cards were unbalanced but for the sake of this argument (and not repeating past ones) lets just say they were different cards for different targets. Arrow was for BLM/SAM or next best fit, Spear was for BRD/MNK or next best fit, and Balance was for anyone or your best DPS.
This boils down to being presented with an option, and then applying it to the correct target. This is no different to the current system, except that your options and targets have changed, from: BLM/SAM or BRD/MNK or Best DPS ...to: Ranged or Melee.
Each card you draw requires you to identify the card, identify the target, and use it on that target, in each system.
The main functional differences between these systems is that:
1. The new system gives more consistent output. Instead of other party members getting different buffs that moderate their DPS in different ways, they all get a flat damage increase.
2. You are applying weaker buffs twice as frequently.
The first of those I actually prefer, because it means the party don't need to get involved in your job mechanics, it is your responsibility, there's no BLM whining that he didn't get an Arrow, no BRD complaining that the MNK got the Spear, everyone just goes with the flow.
The second is the real problem as far as I'm concerned, it's why AST's now have carpal tunnel.
and I would solve it as follows:
Individual cards need to be more effective, and we need to reduce the amount of times we’re targeting different players.
Card Effects:
Play Effect: Increases damage dealt by a party member or self by 10% if target is [melee/ranged] DPS or [tank/healer], or 5% for all other roles. Duration: 15s
Minor Arcana Effect: Grants a [Lunar/Solar/Celestial] Seal when used in combat.
The same as they are now, but at just under double potency and without the seal on regular play, because Minor Arcana no longer grants the more powerful effect, instead it only applies the seal, and therefore does not require a target.
So you are choosing between the buff, OR the seal, you don't get both.
Minor Arcana: Grants the drawn card’s associated Seal and triggers the effect of Lord of Crowns when Balance, Arrow, or Spear, or the Lady of Crowns when Bole, Ewer, or Spire.
Lord of Crowns: Restores 400 MP +400 more MP if in Nocturnal stance (because Nocturnal is more MP intensive)
Lady of Crowns: Restores 400 MP +10% of your own HP if in Diurnal stance
So you do get something more than just the Seal from Minor Arcana, mostly MP. This leads us to…
Divination: Increases damage dealt by self and nearby party members. Duration: 15s
Can only be executed after obtaining three Seals of Arcana by playing at least three arcanum. Effectiveness is determined by the number of different types of seals in play.
1 Seal Type: 6%
2 Seal Types: 8%
3 Seal Types: 10%
Sleeve Draw: Draws a card (arcanum) from your divining deck and grants one stacks of Sleeve Draw.
Because if you use it right after Minor Arcana'ing a card, you can still get your three seals out.
Basically, just under double potencies, because you’re now missing out on half of your single target card buffs, and the bonus of the current Minor Arcana increased buff.
The result of this is that you're not necessarily targeting player characters every 30s to grant them a tiny buff, and you're making a choice between single target buffs and AoE buffs, similar to the old Royal Road system. This choice is more valid than the choices you currently make and restores some agency to the card system.
Over all it is a slight DPS nerf when averaged out, however as you have more powerful buffs, albeit less frequent, then in high end play by timing them around burst windows correctly, it may actually end up being a DPS gain overall. -
06-02-2020, 09:19 AMRecon1o6
Edit, wrong name
The fact that seraphor and other hardcore raiders like them focusing on balance as a dps card being above all others is proof they were missing the entire point of the astrologian job as there is more battle content than just raids which was where the other cards shined, but since the hardcore community focuses purely on dps to exclusion of all else ignoring the fact that a clear is a clear as theres no reward for speed beyond beating enrage.
Every card had its uses, just because a card wasn't directly applied doesnt mean it didn't have a use. It was part of the fun, the highs and the lows. That's why the most situational cards had the aoe buffs
Warriors and monks loved spire in dungeons as it was aoes for days.
Ewer was our critical mp restore since they removed luminerferous aether which was incredibly valuable
Bole was useful in solo content to get more damage out before needing to heal and dungeons particularly when you had an idiot tank that didn't use CDs
Arrow made gravity spam which was a fun little aoe burst for ast, if not then there's other jobs that needed it
Spear was both a healing and a damage tool and was beloved in combination with a litany. Bards and monks needed it to remove their rng
The general consensus on the old cards was that it was flawed and some cards could have done with a tweak but incredibly fun. Not having the entire system destroyed to the point the buffs need a parser to see them, because you certainly won't be casting less malefics to kill a mob with 6%
An astrologian that lost a card due to time out in the old system was a poor astrologian. 30 seconds in more than ample time to press 1 of 4 buttons to spend it (use, RR, MA or Spread)- even window lickers remember to push a dot.
Raiders want 1 thing consistent dps buffs. That just required spreading balance to each card and changing it and spire. They didn't need to touch the rest, but no, they utterly wrecked the entire job -
06-02-2020, 10:59 AMKDSilverYES x 1000Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
I wish more people would actually understand that it was all about in what environment you were in that made your gameplay flexible with cards.
You could go full buff with solid savage parties with no mistake... to carefull with some bole and ewer with less experienced players. You could wander around Eureka and some other content throwing some defensive or offensive buff depending on your actual real needs.
It was not all about "duh, balance".
Any real good AST player who has played this game on many scenario can tell this.
And it's frustrating because that's what made this job so awesome to play. You had your basic healer responsabilities which already vary with your party and the content, but since healing alone as we know it has its limit, this mini-game made AST so refreshing to play and never ever a run was the same.
You actually felt really useful and helpful because you could save and prevent some death or stressful moment.
I have so many exemple in mind...
Anyway... Thank you for saying it. -
06-02-2020, 01:38 PMGrimGale
You can have RNG and then skills around to mitigate it.
Royal Road was such system. Same with Minor Arcana. You could still make undesired cards useful. With a charge system, you could play around RNG even more.
Royal road was great imo. It allowed AST to manipulate the nature of its buffs, which I believe made AST so unique and would currently allow to fill the prevalent healing downtime. -
06-03-2020, 03:47 AMTulzschaI didn't say remove all the rng, just one or two cards out of six. GrimGale gets it; I didn't play much AST when they had those tools though, that sounds great. It's such a shame they ruined the cards, there are so many better ways they could have gone about them.Quote:
If the RNG system requires tools to remove all of the RNG, then what is the point?
This is my main issue.
The old system was all fishing for Balances, that was the optimum way to play it, and everyone wanted tools to manipulate the RNG so that you could more reliably fish for Balances.
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06-03-2020, 04:15 AMSide-EyeIt's really frustrating because I felt like Astro had a wonderful balance of defensive, offensive, and party support abilities -- the other two healers should have been brought CLOSER TO AST in that mindset of adaptability, instead of gutting the jobs to make them all similar in the most dumbed-down simplistic way.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
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06-03-2020, 05:01 AMCrushnightI must've missed the part where I said I only wanted balance, I just pointed out consistency was the old system's biggest flaw, consistency works for getting boles, arrows, spears, Ewers and yes even the odd spire, can't tell you the amount I times I wished for a single bole in dungeons with 0 cd tanks or a times where I raised entire party via lightspeed and I want an ewer just so I don't go oom while waiting for Lucid. Even getting the way to secure either the card you want for RR or using it, on a 2 min cd would go a long way to making old system better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon1o6
I raided a lot on healers prior to ShB but I also did everything else with them too, I fully understood that holding anything for too long was bad and minor arcana did wonders for allievating the old RR getting overwritten or dropping a card (lets face it aoe spire was very much the lowest point and minor arcana got rid of it as a possibility entirely).
Also really need to read some of my posts in other threads I am a huge supporter of getting old system back, if I really wanted consistent dmg buffs and only dmg buffs I wouldn't want that :p
I just know they are plenty enough people who enjoy current Ast, and honestly they want to see Ast improve too just with this current system so I do like to engage with them to see if any ideas of theirs seems like it may get me to enjoy Ast again. -
06-03-2020, 08:52 AMRecon1o6my apologies, misinterpreted what you were getting at regarding consistency and I genuinely mixed up you and seraphor when scrollingQuote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
corrected my post -
06-03-2020, 06:36 PMCrushnightNo worries ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon1o6
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06-04-2020, 04:48 PMGrimGale
The balance card was incredibly potent. At some point it granted 20% flat increase in dps for 30s. With royal road you could make that 30% for 30 seconds. It was INSANE. You could even extend the duration twice, giving it 15s extra with Time Dilation, and 10 more with Celestial Opposition.
The trade off was, AST had weaker healing and damaging potencies over all, plus the fact that Balance was 1 out of six possibilities.
The balance was nerfed subsequently. First down to 10%. Then buffed to 15% then back down to 10%.
Clearly the card was an outlier in the system. But in shadowbringers rather than convert the card to a buff more in line to fit the rest, they just removed all the other effects and made each card a balance.
It would have been so easy to simply make Balance give 10% Determination.
Stats are already balanced out, why bother with homogenizing the cards. -
06-04-2020, 06:19 PMForteNightshadeThis is only true for the speed meta and parse runs. Bole had significant uses in dungeons, especially when dealing with less than optimal tanks. Both it and Ewer were invaluable during prog scenarios, and sometimes even held despite losing a card usage simply because it made things easier. Were they're uses as frequent? No. But they had a purpose. What could have been done to mitigate the problem is adding a second slot in Royal Road. Lets call them Left and Right for simplicity sake. Left slot can only hold Balance/Spear/Arrow and Right slot can only hold Bole/Ewer/Spire. Bam. Now you don't have utility based cards competing with damage cards. Additionally, you can now hold a Bole without losing a card system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
But speaking on the card usage. You're mistaken. While yes, you're technically placing them on Melee/Range now. This more or less ends up being the same handful of jobs. If your comp consists of say, SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN. The only time you'll consider the Dragoon or Dancer is during openers, reopeners or the better target already has a card. Samurai and Summoner will consistently be the higher damage dealers; with bursts that are more or less going to overlap with the others. Therefore, you really aren't making a decision. You're either looking at your parse to see the best DPS if it's with pugs, or you're prioritizing certain jobs.
Contrast that to Stormblood where Arrow had a use on Black Mage or Monk; Spear, in general was pretty good, but especially on Bard or Monk, and finally balance was universally good. So the problem here is balancing being a bit too strong but that could have been adjusted. What we have now is a new system no less an illusion of choice—possibly more so—that functionally makes almost the entire card system pointless. Seriously, delete all the cards and have Seals generate from new Lord/Lady. You've changed absolutely nothing. That is how shallow the new card system is, and why people dislike it. -
06-04-2020, 07:31 PMSeraphorAnd if you didn't draw them when you needed them? What then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Their replacements, Celestial Intersection, and a more potent Lucid Dreaming, are far more useful than Bole and Ewer ever were.
AST could do with yet more MP regen admittedly, but Ewer is not the best avenue for that.
The only alternative I could reasonably support would be splitting it up into two 'pools' you can draw from, either draw from the 'healer' cards Bole, Ewer and Spire, (with Spire being like a heal card) or draw from the 'dps' cards, the other three.
At least then you'd have a 2/3 chance of getting the card you can mitigate/heal damage with, and redraw would make that guaranteed, and a 2/3 chance of specifically drawing a Bole.
Or perhaps change Minor Arcana into Bole and Ewer effects, so that no matter what card you draw, you can turn it into a healer/utility card instead of DPS.
As for the rest of your post on the dps cards... I simply don't agree.
Choosing between Ranged/Melee is no better or worse than choosing the jobs that better suit Speed/Crit/Flat Damage.
Perhaps it 'felt' better because you have it in your head that they do different things. And I suppose there is something to that, it's job fantasy, like using white magic or black magic even if they both just deal the same damage in the end. I don't completely discount the value of aesthetics.
But functionally, you as the AST don't feel the effects of the cards, you don't feel the extra speed from Arrow, or the extra Crit from Spear, you just 'know' that's what their effects are. Meanwhile the DPS themselves that are the recipients of these buffs are more than happy to just get a flat damage buff, and it causes far less controversy.
I've explained on these boards before, that the toxicity I've received from using the wrong cards on the wrong jobs, even accidentally, has far outweighed anything else I've ever had to deal with in this game. This has been removed with this new card system.
Meanwhile the best healing experience I've ever had in this game, was leveling AST from 70 to 80 in the first 2 weeks of Shadowbringers, before they received buffs in 5.01. -
06-04-2020, 10:15 PMSide-EyeIt is this mentality that WRECKED heal jobs. Nerfs should never happen because of a perceived imbalance -- especially when balance was actually there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Sorry your feelings were hurt, but now an entire heal job has been hurt -- and if you've bothered to read the hundreds of posts from those who played/mained astro, you would know that the current card system is *not* satisfactory nor satisfying. What DPS jobs "perceive" should NEVER be the deciding factor over which abilities stay, go, or get adjusted. If devs are too lazy to test for the actual numbers, they should be a little more involved in these forums to see what the players see after extensively testing themselves, in a full variety of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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06-05-2020, 12:42 AMKabooaIsn't it fortunate that the imbalance wasn't just perceived then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Side-Eye
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06-05-2020, 04:58 AMForteNightshadeYou adjusted? That was the entire point of Astro, and what many people enjoyed. It requirement adjustment based on RNG. While the system was far from perfect, it offered a unique gameplay instead of the more homogenized mess all three healers have largely become.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Why scrap the whole system when you could just improve upon it? Adding abilities that allow you to somewhat mitigate that RNG isn't discrediting the system itself but simply adding flavor. Furthermore, it fit the Time Mage aspect—which is something else people liked about Astro that was more or less stripped away.
Feel goes a long way into what makes people enjoy the job they're playing. Why do you think there is so much opposition to combo consolidation? Pressing 123 isn't more skillful than 111 but the latter feels more boring, thus the push back. A big complaint regarding tanks and healers right now is their homogenized. None of them feel different despite all being functionally "balanced."Quote:
As for the rest of your post on the dps cards... I simply don't agree.
Choosing between Ranged/Melee is no better or worse than choosing the jobs that better suit Speed/Crit/Flat Damage.
Perhaps it 'felt' better because you have it in your head that they do different things. And I suppose there is something to that, it's job fantasy, like using white magic or black magic even if they both just deal the same damage in the end. I don't completely discount the value of aesthetics.
But functionally, you as the AST don't feel the effects of the cards, you don't feel the extra speed from Arrow, or the extra Crit from Spear, you just 'know' that's what their effects are. Meanwhile the DPS themselves that are the recipients of these buffs are more than happy to just get a flat damage buff, and it causes far less controversy.
Putting that said, I found it more interesting to consider things like Crit and Speed because it required more knowledge on how the jobs and stats functioned. It also had a more multi-purpose use. If the Bard's sitting in Army's, that Spear is going to be better on the Monk or Dragoon. The current system is largely brainless. Going back to the comp I listed earlier of SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN. Your thought process is:
Are we doing openers? If yes, use on Dragoon. If no, use on Samurai.
Does the Samurai already have a melee card? If no, use on Samurai. If yes, use on Dragoon.
I find that a lot less engaging than having to know how Crit influences certain jobs. Although, I suppose we lost that aspect too. -
06-05-2020, 05:05 AMRai_Takara
Yes, while there's a variety of content, not just raids, raids are what's the most important in terms of balance (Savage and Ultimate). Effects from just that content trickle down to everyone else and suddenly you find certain jobs being omitted for being sub-optimal even if they are viable.
With respect to AST, it's interesting to see what the devs will do. Considering criticism, the devs have stayed their course in 5.2, so they believe that the current AST is fine. Maybe 5.3 will be different, but I'd be very surprised to see them do anything besides minor potency adjustments.
I will say, I think people should temper their expectations for 6.0. I don't believe we'll see anything different even with a 4th healer. If they aren't a SCH reskin, it'll be another WHM reskin. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I worry that people expect a 4th healer will somehow "fix" healers. That ship was 5.0 and it has sailed.
To be fair, turning into a lord or lady was far more consistent than playing the spear if you already had an AoE royal road lined up. Now with it being single target, Spear was just a less potent balance, but you used the same ideology on who to give it to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Touching up on AST recently, it feels the same as SB and HW except less frustrating because RNG can't swing as low as it used to. -
06-05-2020, 07:49 AMCrushnightAfraid them staying the course in 5.2 means nothing, they stayed the course for all of HW with bowmage, they stayed the course of old Ast for HW+SB, it will be 6.0 that will determine if the new card system is here to stay or not. Just like it will be 6.0 if current healer design remains or if they will change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
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06-05-2020, 12:00 PMRai_TakaraThat's true. However, bow mage was a different circumstance, imo. People didn't really complain about it and it was more of a thing the devs wanted to try. Problem with the old cards is there were complaints against it. That's why they had to change them from the get go, not that they did it for the sake of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
I can see them potentially changing cards in 6.0 but I don't think it will be going back to the old system if they do. It will be yet another new system, but to some, anything is better than the current one. Similarly, I highly doubt they will change healers much, if at all, considering this expansion was their chance and this is what they came up with. Which is more of the same, except removing DPS tools. Will they add more DPS or utility management for healers in the future? Possibly. Will they redesign how healer plays in general? Near zero chance. -
06-06-2020, 12:15 AMAnotherPersonThere were complaints with the old cards because Balance was fished and used more often in relative comparison to resource-efficiency of the other cards. Making all cards a Balance doesn't address the issue, because now you have a whole system designed for fishing Balance. They could have adjusted the system where Balance isn't the most powerful card. Granted, the previous system left RNG too much randomness and the devs probably didn't know what to replace the card effects like Spire with. Honestly, they could've just made Spire an -x stack- instant cast with -% mana mitigation- effect and it would still be useful for weaving when Lightspeed is down and used for raising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
Preferably though, if they plan on making the card system so prevalent and important to the job's core identity - I rather see the draw skill turn into 3 different buttons, replace Undraw and Redraw for them so you get 50% RNG to draw the card you want (separated by seals) where all cards act as a support/resource buff in some way. Then move the damage mechanic elsewhere so people won't complain about AST's unstable rDPS. Sleeve draw can stay as it is and become a random draw (hence the name "sleeve" draw), but you can see what 3 cards you're going to draw in the gauge in advance to prevent tunnel vision syndrome and yet still leave a RNG aspect and weaving aspect.
I highly doubt they won't redesign how healers play in general - SCH are complaining heavily about their loss of DPS kit which was well designed. Both WHM and SCH doesn't have a system that takes the focus of pressing one DPS button away from the game. ASTs have a special case because the card system was designed in mind to be watching other players and figuring out when you should be giving a buff, when they were making mistakes that you can mitigate with your cards, etc. It took away the focus of spamming Malefic as much and put Malefic in the background focus that you do to keep yourself from idling while putting the card system in front. The Lily system and aetherflow system does not do that. They are simply tools that you use for healing which can be built up or swapped for damage. There's no other focus the player can swap to, which makes spamming glare/broil heavily noticeable in contrast.
Healers should be getting the DPS rotations back - I don't understand why it is thought that healers cannot do complex DPS rotations. They're players like the rest of the DPS. It makes no sense to think Ninja, SMN, and BLM can have such a complex rotation, but healers cannot do the same to a lesser extent while weaving oGCD healing skills like an oGCD damaging skill. It just boggles the mind. Damage doesn't come out that fast in the game, and if it does then healers can forgo DPSing. Just lowering the number of options that a healer CAN have when performing well is a bad idea. Just take a look at the AST's card variety and the complaints there. The current system is good balance wise - but the lack of variety and options made players complain in general because it took away options that CAN make the experience of a healer more enjoyable. I expect there will be one healer that gets changed (probably AST) that will get more buffs, but keep its current paradigm because it works well with it due to the existence of the card system. The others could have their DPS rotations to make their gameplay unique and give more of a challenge for healers who can handle a more complex job.
Here's something I realized - Incoming damage at SB Shrinyu was actually at a good place. There was a decent amount of incoming damage and the amount kept healers on their toes while giving ample downtime. Considering how there would be healers, who for some reason, can't DPS (or won't DPS) and heal at the same time because they can't multi-task without stressing themselves too much, adding more incoming damage actually would be counter-intuitive if SE wants those healers to heal better because those healers would just be stressed all the time in contrast to the downtime we already have. At that point it's best to just take advantage of downtime by making it less of a chore to play in spamming one button over and over again for those who can multi-task. It'll raise the ceiling of healer gameplay without punishing healers who can't rise to the challenge (since SE believes healer DPS is optional), but still keep the game difficult for those healers since outgoing damage is already a challenge for them to keep up with. -
06-06-2020, 03:11 AMIrenia
With the multiple times Yoshi P says things like "I think the healer jobs should focus on healing", I believe that whatever comes down the pipe, it will on the surface level seem to support a reactive healing playstyle, for the kinds of players who don't want to DPS because they want to jump in with a clutch heal if things go wrong. Even if high level play requires DPS, the zero DPS healer should get no flak in the eyes of SE. And the healer design reflects this.
If they can figure out a way to make healer DPS interesting, while simultaneously making it seem like these healers are made for healing, I have no doubt they will do that. I have no official word from the team, this is simply something I believe after looking at the events and evidence. Take this with as much salt as you like. -
06-06-2020, 07:06 AMRai_TakaraThis part isn't necessarily related to healing though. That being said, even with the cards, AST still comes down to Malefic spam. At the end of the day, that is how healers are envisioned in this game and also why I can't see them changing their "formula" again because ShB was their chance to nail it down forever so that next expansion they can add another healer to fit in with that formula.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
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06-06-2020, 09:19 AMfinnegandadaeon
[QUOTE=Rai_Takara;5362286]I will say, I think people should temper their expectations for 6.0. I don't believe we'll see anything different even with a 4th healer. If they aren't a SCH reskin, it'll be another WHM reskin. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I worry that people expect a 4th healer will somehow "fix" healers. That ship was 5.0 and it has sailed.
I agree with u, also I probably think the new healer won’t be anything really “new” I bet we’ll receive a geomancer created with the ast nocturnal mechanics and a buff system somehow similar to the old card system but with sygils or any kinda of lore they ll want to introduce.
Actually nocturnal ast is kinda a 4th healer (is not even similar to what actually scholar is and u can’t play it like a scholar ). -
06-06-2020, 02:37 PMAnotherPersonWhat do you mean it's not related to healing? DPS rotations for a healer is related to healer gameplay and healing in general. Since downtime exists, it's related to healing because damage skills is a healer's tool to mitigate incoming damage by speeding up fights. If the boss can't use their next raidwide AoE because you contributed to DPSing and killed them off before they got a chance to let that attack off, it means you reduced the number of Medica/Helios/Succor/Benefic II/Cure II/Adlo/GCD healing spells required, then yes it's intrinsically related to healing. Some bosses do get stronger if you let them live longer - Ex bosses using Akh Morn. Some bosses will hit another tankbuster mechanic. The longer they live, the more stressful and taxing it is on the healers - because not only do you have to take into consideration with more incoming damage and having less MP from using more mana-intensive spells, it's assumed the party will still be able to perform at a certain standard as the fight progresses. As you may have experienced, the longer a fight goes - even in a scripted fight - the easier it is for a player to lose concentration and start taking more avoidable AoEs and the more MP it is required to keep the party running. So yes, it's completely related to healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
Easy way to see this would be WHM Holy on trash packs - more damage to mobs + stuns = less outgoing damage on the team + less hits the tank will take. The faster something dies, the less time it has to hit.
If you were referring to how AST's card system isn't related to healing, it is completely related because it's related to healer gameplay. The old card system enabled AST to buff / increase def/ party AoE with royal road. It was used in conjunction to your healing skills. More mitigation = less incoming damage = less healing. More damage = faster fights = less overall healing required.
It's exactly due to raiding being very difficult during ARR because of constant party wipes and healer DPS helping to contribute to ensure those runs become successful that the idea of healers DPSing became a thing. It's also why people say a good healer doesn't overheal. Healers would save mana by not overhealing and save a GCD to DPS and speed up the fight. It's also partly why some healers would overDPS and how a healer misjudges the need to heal assuming the party would be fine when they start taking avoidable AoEs. Granted, healer DPS may not be required in most fights - but a good healer will DPS regardless because this is a way to actively mitigate and reduce stress on both the healers and the entire party in general.
As for AST's current system, it has a weaker damage up effect per card that is hard to see without a parser unless you pop both divination and the buffs together, but it still is completely related to healing. It speeds up fights which means less incoming damage. The only difference is the fun involved with the fight. Pressing one button for 12 to 18 minutes straight gets dull fairly fast. This is what healers might have been envisioned on this expansion, but that was not the case for previous expansions. With healer complaint being as high as they are, not changing the current paradigm for the sake of balance will only lead to what AST has now - complaints for a Balanced and a functional job, but being played less as a whole.
If what you say is true about how Savage/Ultimate is the focus of changes for Balance, then healer gameplay & enjoyment starts from there - where healer DPS actually does matter because healer DPS does make the difference between wiping and clearing. If people at Savage and Ultimate complains of a lack of DPS rotation on healers, then it should a valid concern for gameplay enjoyment. I'm all for all healer jobs getting an extra DPS skill if it means breaking the boredom of pressing one button consistently. -
06-06-2020, 03:36 PMForteNightshadeTo be fair, I don't imagine they anticipated their changes to be met with this much vitriol. One year in and people are still complaining. Even White Mage and the dreaded Stormblood Lilies or Bowmage quieted down faster than healer complaints have now. That isn't to say I necessarily disagree as SE has proven time and time again they can be incredibly stubborn but when even the casual playerbase is upset. They tend to listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
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06-06-2020, 04:28 PMalthenawhmTo be fair, Stormblood lilies were super easy to ignore, just toss on simplified job gauge, shrink it, and toss it in a corner. Its almost unbelievable how little impact they had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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06-07-2020, 05:43 AMVideraI sincerely forgot Lilies exist in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by althenawhm
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06-08-2020, 08:32 AMRai_TakaraWhat I meant was the specifics of healer DPS isn't part of the general healing discussion. When people ask for healer changes, what they're asking for is to heal like other MMOs. The problem with this is that FFXIV isn't designed with the traditional healer in mind, as we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
Which is what I agree with, in that we need more things for healers to do besides healing because making healers heal more is not on the table anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
Honestly from what I can see, it's really not that bad. Really, the only place I've noticed any consistent dissatisfaction is here on the forums and that's always been the case, regardless of what expansion we're in. On top of that, we both know the change to AST cards for example, was not because of forum feedback. This just puts into perspective where the forums are when it comes to job changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
This expansion has been pretty much standardizing things to create a foundation to build from with balance being the utmost importance. With that in mind, Lillies had to be changed, as did cards, and so on. Will they try to accommodate casual players? Sure. Will they do it at the cost of balance? I don't believe so, not anymore. -
06-08-2020, 04:18 PMTsumdere
God... I miss prepping an buffed and extended Arrow for my black mage and hearing them lose their mind in joy. I miss being able to extend a bard's Foe's Requiem with a Ewer (double rip there).
I would have rather them remove the Balance completely and replace it with a support oriented card, and then tack a 3% damage buff on all cards so people wouldn't be fishing that much anymore.
AST buffs are so boring now I forget they exist. -
06-08-2020, 04:57 PMGrimGaleBut we can't focus on healing. There is barely any healing to do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenia
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06-08-2020, 06:31 PMSlopranoThank you for sharing. Actually seeing some publication on us is really strange and good, hoping it gains traction. Thats why I feel bad for lambasting the artical for not being critical enough and bringing up the ever-loving point that hangs over a MOG:Quote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
Repetition.
I will stand by that gear makes everything easier for every new point. As there are actually two systems in this game: The actions we do and the ever calculating numbers in the background. As our ilvl goes up we notice fights goes by faster. But as a healer I get on that point a lot earlier.
Remember repetition? First time in a new place, you might have Galvanize (fuck you Catalyze) up at all times as every time the boss rears his bum you get ready for something that hurts. But turns out he was just gonna scratch it. No attack going out. And you remember this to the next time. You save that Succor MP and gcd and instead use Broil III. That is every single encounter. In Copperbell, Eos could take care of it, in E5S we even have ogcds to not interrupt the broiling. Yes, as our gear becomes better so do we, but also by learning the fight do we get better. And have less healing to do.
On the topic of bad players. I don't think I've met any. Inexperienced? Several. Many who like the jobs and idea of healing, but never wanted to even consider signing up as conjurer or any of the other jobs for that matter. Some of these were friends and know what I did? Asked if they wanted help, took them next to a training dummy and told them to stand there, read every skill, try it out and press it several times. For every skill for at least half an hour. Then join any dungeon with them as tank and walk them through it. As was posted in the General chat, one of the friends who stuck with WHM is now using Swiftcast on Glare. With learning the job comes confidence, and with confidence know you don't need to be spamming Cure II all the time. Except for when the tanks equipment breaks mid-pack, then you still know every emergency button you have.
We have Halls of the Novice. Where's Halls of the Intermediate? The Expert? "Hall of the Adroit". New one unlocked at levels 50, 60, 70 and 80 respectively. Before you can go and do the big show-MSQ-down. Need to say you've been there and just proven you have all your skills and have pressed them. They did almost something like it with the Role Quests and AF gear in 5.0. Or, thats a laugh. Don't remember doing much healing inbetween DPSing sineaters and using repose. I'm reminded of how Driver 1 wouldn't let you start the story until you did nine car maneuvers in under sixty seconds. That was a real pain for child-me, but it teach me how to do 180' handbrake turns on muscle memory which came to good use in the story missions.
And on the topic of "giving more dps to healers" I do as I always do: Point to 3.0 Scholar. It didn't have one dot/one casted spell simplicity. It didn't have strict rotations, buff windows and lit up buttons. These are extreme ends. What 3.0 SCH had was something in between. A large collection of loosely or not connected THINGS YOU COULD DO skills that were ALWAYS available. The dots? Put up one or five, they all helped. Shadowflare? Takes time to put up but is mitigation and damage in one. Virus? Less damage if you can time it. E4E? Throw it out when you can. Stoneskin? Refresh it so you can get one more dot out. And the big one: Cleric Stance. Completely optional, but always there when you wanted it!
3.0 SCH resided somewhere between the numb design we have today and a BLM's rotation. Everything was optional, almost no cooldowns and it could be worked around doing the role as you ebbed and flowed with dots, the fairy and cleric stance's five second cooldown.
I still don't want a red-iconed job's rotation on SCH, because lit up buttons and buff windows is something I will believe to be detrimental to my role. As I would get hard-wired to want to finish this combo or squeeze out another Broil and ED before Chain strat ends. Oh wait.
The problem is far from insoluable, SE just needs put actual time and thought into the problem and stop thinking healers are made of fucking calcium sulfate. -
06-10-2020, 03:32 PMKDSilverStormblood iteration was fine for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
You couldn't compete with RNG 100% of the time, but you had enough option so you could deal with what you had.
With a wise usage a Royal Road/Spread and Sleeve Draw with a 2min CD, you could have what you wanted.
The point of "having tools to counter RNG" is actually... playing. Gambling. That was the essence of Astrologian. You can't have these result without using what your toolkit offers. It needs a bit of dedication to it. And it was just, fun. -
06-17-2020, 07:04 AMShofie
I am not a fan of the rhetoric that to be a "good" healer you have to DPS, because it applies the logic that a healer that is completely apt at healing is a "bad" healer, even if for some reason they do not or cannot DPS in addition to healing. In my opinion, a "good" healer is a healer who keeps their party in good health and within reason, alive.
DPS, according to Yoshi-P, has NEVER been "required" to play the job endgame. No fights are tuned with healer's DPS in mind, a healer can refrain from DPSing and the fight is entirely clearable in spite of this--even endgame hardcore raid content. It will go faster if the healer joins in, but it is not ever mandatory.
Healers have DPS abilities because they have to play through the same content at the start of the game solo that everyone else does, and if healers had absolutely zero damage abilities, how would they even slog to level 15 to get to their first dungeon? That's pretty much it. So we can quest and do stuff without a party holding our hand.
People took this to read as, "Well, it's part of your toolkit, you have to do it or you're a bad healer!" which just never sat right with me. No, it'd make you a fantastic player if you can juggle dps and healing, but it does not inherently, paradoxically, make you a better "healer" for using DPS skills.
To be clear here: I think healers should DPS if they're able to, and "able" is a really broad word here. Not every player is created the same, and some of us struggle with balancing healing with DPS on a lot of days, and that shouldn't be considered someone being a "bad healer" because they aren't DPSing "enough". But, if the party is doing mechanics well, and everyone's geared decently enough, and staying out of AOEs, and you find they don't need much attention...then yeah, throw some DPS out, hell yeah.
But the attitude that healers must DPS or they are bad is a very toxic mindset, as evidenced by plenty of threads and players getting chuddy with people because they aren't DPSing, when in many cases, they healer simply can't do to some factor that the players either hadn't noticed, or simply hadn't thought of.
I do like the Blood Lily mechanic and would like to see similar things implemented for other healer classes for sure though. It's quite a difference going from Astrologian to White Mage and how much more DPS-friendly WHM is because of it's design than AST.