Why use a Dragoon or Monk when you can use a Warrior?

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

There is not a warrior alive who can out dps my dragoon, against any number of enemies. There is not a warrior alive that can out dps a monk on a single target. My linkshell doesn't use warrior in any situation apart from tanking. Warriors replacing other classes? LOLurdoinitwrong.

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since you good using DRG, I wanna ask some questions:
1. what is paralysis do?
2. What kind of damage can be reduced by dreadspike, is it all kind of damage?
3. I found vorpal thrust usually miss, is it by nature of LNC post 1.21?

The same reason people still choose to play Paladin over Warrior for tanking, even though we clearly see the shortcomings. Because we like Paladin.

I think there is a lot of truth to both sides of this debate. WAR is probably the most utilitarian job right now. The fact that it can take on two roles in a party makes it more beneficial than other jobs. WAR may not out DD a good MNK or a good DRG, but the difference is not huge. WAR can tank better than a MNK and DRG just doesn't have the necessary abilities to tank in any realistic capacity. WAR tanks better than the actual designed tank job, PLD. It's not a surprise that parties learning new raids, pick-up groups, or those who simply want the fastest, easiest, simplest combination of jobs would want WARs before MNK or DRGs.

That being said, it is completely possible to complete the new content with any combination of jobs that meet the basic needs of a party. It's finding people who are willing to run the new content with that combination that is the challenge for most players. Even in fairly close knit LS's, you still hear people's job preferences being pushed aside for jobs that make things easier or more efficient. Chances are unless you play with a set group of close friends, you are probably going to be asked to play a job that isn't your preference unless your job of preference is currently WAR, WHM, BLM, or BRD. Not saying that's right, but it's the reality. It's the player base who has created that mentality with the help of SE's pitiful ability to create balanced content.

To me, that's where the problem lies. SE should be creating content that requires the use of multiple jobs to complete. In my opinion, you should never be able to throw a tank, a healer, and 6 BLMS at something and it becomes 500% easier than it would be with a balanced party. Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember Yoshi-P stating that he felt that party roles fell into 4 categories and those categories are what should comprise a party...a tank, a healer, a DD, and a buffer. If content were balanced, you should be able to run content with a tank, a healer, a DD, a buffer and 4 other party members of mixed abilities. Instead we've seen a tank, a healer, a buffer and 5 BLMs, or a tank, a healer, a buffer and 5 LNCs, or substitute 5 LNCs with 5 ARCs.

I'm not saying content should be easier, but surely there's a way to balance it so that each and every job can offer something to any content whether it be raids or primals. Surely, there's a way to balance things so that PLD, WHM, BLM, BRD, MNK, DRG, WAR, WHM works just as efficiently as WAR, WAR, WHM, WHM, BRD, BLM, BLM, BLM.

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Originally Posted by Raygun

Warriors have plenty of AoE, AoE stun, and who cares if they get hate because they can unquestionably tank. Where is Dragoons niche? The ability to run away?

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I fail to see these so called "plenty AoEs"...

@OP: Well, WAR stacking might be viable but only if you're WHMs such so bad, they can't keep meeles alive and/or Meeles that are not WAR are too slow to get away from trouble, so they rely on WARs HP pool to survive anything...

Both shows a lack in skill, while the game definetely supports using MNK and DRG, since both do better and faster DPS then WAR, the only thing is, they are squishy...that's it.

More reasons...WAR needs to start his Steel Cyclone Combo in front of the target, Steel Cyclone Stun is very "occasional", while Leg Sweep Stun is pretty much always happening with few exceptions.

DRG has access to his AoE WSs faster and more often then WAR.

MNK just straight outdmgs anything in the game right now without exception. Collusion a MNK right before Blindside Dragon Kick, and all others who are yellow/red in that moment will jump to green/yellow.

Overall I don't see any reason to take more then 1 WAR(for tanking), since all other DPS classes do a better job.

Sure as WAR you survive, but surviving shit shouldn't be a viable factor into what DD class to play, DPS should be the biggest factor, especially with survival being accomplished by something as stupid as having skill.

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Originally Posted by Aion

since you good using DRG, I wanna ask some questions:
1. what is paralysis do?
2. What kind of damage can be reduced by dreadspike, is it all kind of damage?
3. I found vorpal thrust usually miss, is it by nature of LNC post 1.21?

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1. Can interrupt spellcasting and actions that need to be readied (when you see the enemy charging)
2. Dreadspike sucks.
3. Vorpal Thrust has no accuracy issues, Impulse Drive does. We get to use Feint > Disembowel instead when that happens.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

The same reason people still choose to play Paladin over Warrior for tanking, even though we clearly see the shortcomings. Because we like Paladin.

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Me personally i still prefer Pld cause with a Pld you don't need 2 Whm's spamming cure's on the tank cause pld has holy succor. So that in turn leaves the other Whm to spam cura/curaga on melee

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Why use a Dragoon or Monk when you can use a Warrior?

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I remember a time in the game where Marauder could destroy 20 monsters by going:
- Brutal Swing > Storm's Path > Storms path > Heavy Swing > Storms Path > Storms Path.

We all know what happened to this anyway, so you all know what's coming :P

As a career PLD, let me say that WAR does not deserve, nor would I like to see it, get nerfed. There is nothing wrong with WAR at this time.

PLD needs boosts in a variety of places to bring it up to an acceptable level.

Dragoons attack faster, have a damn near spammable aoe stun that chains to our heavy hitting TP Move (Heavy Thrust > Leg Sweep > Doomspike), Dragoons also can attack from a further distance outside of most close burst aoes like Ifrit's seer and such. Ontop of that whenever a Dragoon misses he gets to fire off a combo that can paralyze most targets while dealing good damage.

Monk put out insane ammounts of single target damage if played right and can drop some good debuffs with their combos. can virtually spam TP moves with fists of wind up and their TP gain. They make great support and heavy DD.

Warrior is only good for its hate building dmg and slef heals from crits but that would just cause chaosin the party with spotty hate jumping from one to another unless they hold back which defeats the purpose of being a DD if you have o restrict yourself from dealing damage because you pull insane ammounts of hate.

I think they all have their place in a party setup of every type and it should remain that way. I am constantly being forced to go DRG to LS events even though I'd prefer to go BRD or WHM because of my ability to throw out consistant dmg and not go beyond yellow hate after a few combos.

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

To me, that's where the problem lies. SE should be creating content that requires the use of multiple jobs to complete. In my opinion, you should never be able to throw a tank, a healer, and 6 BLMS at something and it becomes 500% easier than it would be with a balanced party. Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember Yoshi-P stating that he felt that party roles fell into 4 categories and those categories are what should comprise a party...a tank, a healer, a DD, and a buffer. If content were balanced, you should be able to run content with a tank, a healer, a DD, a buffer and 4 other party members of mixed abilities. Instead we've seen a tank, a healer, a buffer and 5 BLMs, or a tank, a healer, a buffer and 5 LNCs, or substitute 5 LNCs with 5 ARCs.

I'm not saying content should be easier, but surely there's a way to balance it so that each and every job can offer something to any content whether it be raids or primals. Surely, there's a way to balance things so that PLD, WHM, BLM, BRD, MNK, DRG, WAR, WHM works just as efficiently as WAR, WAR, WHM, WHM, BRD, BLM, BLM, BLM.

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This. I always wander why SE does not learn from their mistakes. Really? you can't force people to bring other jobs into the mix? I don't like the word "force", but it's better than having 5 ARC or 5 BLMs everytime. Yes, there are people who try things out and do well on those. But mostly they are LS friends. Go to a pick up party and tell them I'll do ifrit as PGL. Wait for the laughs or no response....

So, again to my question. SE wants to "force" people to drag melee into fight? Two ways... Go the easy route of enemy building resistance to magic or range. Meaning the more mages or range the worse. This also means the more melee the worse.

The other idea, make them situational. How does that works, with say ifrit? easy, make the spikes un-damageble by magic or range.... EASY. Then everyone will have to drag at least one melee. Moogle? Same, make some moogles immune to magic or range... is it really that hard to implement and make fights more fun? I'm sure they can think of more ways, I did while writing this....

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Originally Posted by HokSeven

This. I always wander why SE does not learn from their mistakes. Really? you can't force people to bring other jobs into the mix? I don't like the word "force", but it's better than having 5 ARC or 5 BLMs everytime. Yes, there are people who try things out and do well on those. But mostly they are LS friends. Go to a pick up party and tell them I'll do ifrit as PGL. Wait for the laughs or no response....

So, again to my question. SE wants to "force" people to drag melee into fight? Two ways... Go the easy route of enemy building resistance to magic or range. Meaning the more mages or range the worse. This also means the more melee the worse.

The other idea, make them situational. How does that works, with say ifrit? easy, make the spikes un-damageble by magic or range.... EASY. Then everyone will have to drag at least one melee. Moogle? Same, make some moogles immune to magic or range... is it really that hard to implement and make fights more fun? I'm sure they can think of more ways, I did while writing this....

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SE is terrible about this. I wanted to get into a Ifrit PUG as MNK and the reply was "sorry", but at least I got a reply...normally I don't even get that. I did thank the individual for at least being kind enough to give me a reply. They need to come up with better mechanics for some of these fights. That being said the community has to take some of the blame. Once a strategy is found it's pretty much locked in stone unless you have an LS that is willing to try some different strats.

I can't really comment on drg as I haven't played it that much even though I was LNC in probably 70% of situations previously. The reason isn't that I think it's weaker as I don't know this to be true but the reason does answer your question.
The reason I take monk over warrior ( or drg for now) is that monk is just so much damn fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

-Within a 10 sec Window WAR gets off 1 WS or a 3 WS Combo ( Slow AA, Slow TP Gain etc)

-Within a 10 sec Window DRG get 2-3 WS or a 3 WS X 3 (max)= 9 WS (Fast AA, Fast TP Gain + Invigorate)

It's only NATURAL for a WAR to hit harder in 1 go because of WAR's Being all slow to Weaponskill. From 1 Solid Hit View of things Yes your right they hit Hard.. but when you do it over a Course of a Full battle, Which one comes out on top ( or is it even?).

Why would it matter what WAR does? As long as you love your Job all else doesn't matter But you and Your Job!

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Can you just stop posting? It matters to other people.

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Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru

Can you just stop posting? It matters to other people.

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Its more like people crying to me, but whatever carry on with the Tears of Woe.

I use a monk because the guy i typically play with is a monk, so we make do, and im the blm/whm for situations

My opinion, the best way to speed run in Aurum Vale is having all DPS be Monks and take down the last boss extremely fast.

Right now, because of Cutter's Cry's setup, it is convenient to have Warrior/Black Mage over other DPS until Chimera due to getting mobs into one spot and AoE'ing them all at once. I will say on the Princess fight, we always have at least one DRG in our party, who is always ready to take the Guard down quickly, and almost always succeeds in that. DRG does real well on Princess because they can still dish out nasty damage on the Princess while being able to sustain TP to take down the Guard immediately when the Guard pops. The problem with Warrior (assuming you are not tanking the Marshal or Princess) is that there is always a chance that your WS's are not ready for use. Warriors gain TP a lot slower.

For Chimera himself. Technically the best way to take him down is having melees in your party, Monk especially. If you are able to Dragon Kick that tail off, Chimera really is a pushover for melees, since they can dish out more damage on him than Black Mages. On Chimera between Warrior(DPS) and MNK/DRG, MNK/DRG have a big advantage over them.

So basically, Monk and Dragoon have better single target DPS than Warrior. Dungeons just really call for more AoE damage.

I really enjoy playing dragoon over warrior.
Yea, it can be used as a tank, but i'd rather dps as DRG.

This thread is further evidence to my theory that all people who play Warrior as their main job have a massive ego.

"Don't worry, I can tank this."
"Don't worry, I'll do the most damage."
"Don't worry, I'll keep it stunned."
"Don't worry, heal the others first."

If people are paying money to play this game, I don't think they are gonna care about whats best at tanking or whatever, they're gonna play as what they want to play as. There are different jobs for a reason, and there's no one way to play the game, that's what makes it fun, you're treating this game like it's a real job or something -.-

Your thread title is wrong... It should read

"Why use a Paladin when you can use a Warrior?"

DRG is the samurai of FFXIV, you can practically WS constantly and not gain hate.

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Originally Posted by Bongeh1986

DRG is the samurai of FFXIV, you can practically WS constantly and not gain hate.

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Dragoon= Stunmaster DRG stun can last up to 12 secs (last I counted), 2 Stuns WS + Para WS, Fast AA, Invigorate, Spamming WS like a mad mans business!

Old Six-arms VS WAR/DRG when its Dealing with a 1 Mob DRG comes out on top hands down, WAR/DRG with Multiple mobs its a tough call, since DRG has Rings of Talons and can use Keen Flurry to get 2 Rings of Talons in 30 secs... but I think War has a slight edge on Multi Mobs.

I much rather play DRG than WAR anyhow, if it was about which one is better, because of all a DRG can do VS what a War can do.

The only thing WAR really has to me is Steel Cyclone, that's the only thing that makes people think WAR is better.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

There is not a warrior alive who can out dps my dragoon, against any number of enemies.

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shoulda left out that last part you gimp.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Me personally i still prefer Pld cause with a Pld you don't need 2 Whm's spamming cure's on the tank cause pld has holy succor. So that in turn leaves the other Whm to spam cura/curaga on melee

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We run with a single WHM for Chimera/Mistress/Coincounter. Don't need two with a WAR tank. You just need a good WHM.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

Your thread title is wrong... It should read

"Why use a Paladin when you can use a Warrior?"

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Hopefully that will be fixed today

I think what it might be good to be more dynamic in play mechanism among these 3 melee dps classes. My pugilist and lancer are still low in level, but they do feel kinda similar to me other than the animation and visual effect

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Hopefully that will be fixed today

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They'd have to buff PLD single target/aoe DPS to be comparable to WAR for any smart linkshell to roll with one instead of WAR. This all just goes back to why MRD > GLA pre jobs. WAR has the better aoe for princess. WAR has the better single target for Chim/Mistress/Coincounter.

Am I the only one that sees that this is a troll post?

Person posting is using a second account/alt to post this.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...icuid=13308847

And that's why War gets nerfed today! j/k! Unless of course they do, then i will ninja edit j/k out

well that is your opinion but other ppl love these other classes and from what I've seen in-game of people bitching about oh sorry dragoon suck we cant use him in this or that dungeon Fyou that means two thing you suck and dont know how to use that class im just learning how to use the dragoon to its max and let me tell you this it can be done also just becuz you dont like some thing it doesnt make it any less important everything has its use

A warrior, who is not tanking, has to use berserk to boost his damage. This makes their defence crap and only the defence they have is their high HP and foresight/featherfoot. This is means WAR has to avoid getting hate and AoEs just the same as any other DD. The problem is, WAR doesn't have hate reduction abilities. In the contrary Steel Cyclone Combo enhances enmity gain.

MNK and DRG specialize in dealing damage. Even if they have lower HP pool, they have hate reduction ablities, which raise their max dmg output cap (until hate shifts). They also have ablities that further boost their damage to reach that higher dmg cap. One could argue that WARs' Berserk is on par with MNK and DRGs' DD ablities, which it isn't imo, but WAR still loses in max dmg cap and steals hate much easier. And like I said, while using Berserk, WAR is definitely NOT in tanking state, not to mention that getting hit will gimp Berserk effect further decreasing WAR dmg output. That simply concludes that MNK/DRG>WAR for DD. Why is this even a discussion?

WAR tanking and using Rampage is balanced with MNK and DRG, because then they don't have to worry about keeping their enmity down.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

They'd have to buff PLD single target/aoe DPS to be comparable to WAR for any smart linkshell to roll with one instead of WAR. This all just goes back to why MRD > GLA pre jobs. WAR has the better aoe for princess. WAR has the better single target for Chim/Mistress/Coincounter.

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The problem is, the only way I see PLD being top choice again is if they gimp WAR's AoE like they did in 1.20. It is a sensitive issue because that is the main appeal of the Warrior is his AoE and ability to tank off that. So I think instead of gimping WAR, PLDs should excel. Meaning, they need more leverage in defense, because right now, my WAR ges hit just as hard as my PLD, but has way more HP to work with. Basically, defense needs to be fixed if PLD is no suppose to have high HP. So far all PLD is good at is holding hate.

And it's thread's like this which will get warrior nerfed. Nice going OP.

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Originally Posted by Raygun

Honestly, I don't see a reason to.

Monks may be worth a spot on one or maybe two encounters due to their higher dps. I wouldn't bring a Dragoon over a Warrior ever. In the grand scheme, Warriors are simply much better all around than either of the other two melee jobs. Most of the setups in my LS and outside are either range stacked or Warrior stacked. The best tank job is also the best all-around melee job. Their damage, their AoE damage, and their survivability in combination makes Warriors the best choice in most cases. I understand they are making some changes for Paladins, but how about for Dragoons and Monks?

I don't want to talk about range v. melee, just simply melee v. melee in this thread.

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Maybe your dps on warrior is comparable to LNC simply because you play with BAD ppl who don't know what they are doing on LNC. The single target dps on LNC is higher then WAR if played correctly. IMO LNC is the easiest job to play bad, its really hard to keep everything on cooldown especially in hectic fights like princess, the acc issue makes it a reasonable gear check on many targets that you just don't see on the other jobs (except blm).

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

They'd have to buff PLD single target/aoe DPS to be comparable to WAR for any smart linkshell to roll with one instead of WAR. This all just goes back to why MRD > GLA pre jobs. WAR has the better aoe for princess. WAR has the better single target for Chim/Mistress/Coincounter.

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Or raise the enmity threashold of PLD to a point where the loss in dps makes up for better hate control. Allow other dps to go harder speed up the fights.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

Maybe your dps on warrior is comparable to LNC simply because you play with BAD ppl who don't know what they are doing on LNC. The single target dps on LNC is higher then WAR if played correctly. IMO LNC is the easiest job to play bad, its really hard to keep everything on cooldown especially in hectic fights like princess, the acc issue makes it a reasonable gear check on many targets that you just don't see on the other jobs (except blm).

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Animation lock makes it even harder. LNC is in the most danger of death because you are constantly using WS's, and every WS puts you at risk of insta-death. I love it though, makes you focus like a shaolin monk going for dat pesky pebble.

So this post is kind of jumbled and i dont really know where i went with this... i just kept typing... If you find any points that are worth anything in that mess, good for you. Also, the thread is long so sorry if i covered stuff someone else said.

I think if they gave Drg/mnk some better survive ability options vs raid boss they would be better or just increase their hp. I think this would also help with the fact that people wouldn't stack range/magic jobs anymore, cause brd/blm don't get hit by bosses aoe and melee do. D:.

Lets face it if wars can survive longer that means they do more dmg, and since a lot of mobs have massive aoe moves or cone attacks and for a lot of people unfortunately this is a problem cause they don't move out of the way fast enough. ie coincutter, mistress, princess. Environment will eventually kill melee to {chimera fight}. also the frontal cone attacks, make half the combos useless if people want you to melee in back, and for chimera you proc his scorpion tail if your behind him, which may hit/kill mages if they are close, which makes another problem if combos start from teh back.

This is all if you don't pay attention and don't position yourself well though, if you pay attention combos shouldn't be a problem or you should be able to avoid aoe, cone moves. But sometimes mnk and drg kind of get shafted as they can't always deal damage during a fight cause they will get killed by something if they don't back off, where blm/brd/war can just deal damage at a steady rate. IE sandtraps on chimera, puddles mistress, slugs pop on coincutter(gotta kill slugs so war doesnt get amnisaed), drg more then monk got shafted i think since a pack of mnks can just zerg mistress. so thats why i think if they either got a boost to hp or better survive ability options (featherfoot can dodge all moves or dodges 2 moves, maybe drg gets more def or something,)

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Originally Posted by Molic

This is all if you don't pay attention and don't position yourself well though, if you pay attention combos shouldn't be a problem or you should be able to avoid aoe, cone moves. But sometimes mnk and drg kind of get shafted as they can't always deal damage during a fight cause they will get killed by something if they don't back off, where blm/brd/war can just deal damage at a steady rate. IE sandtraps on chimera, puddles mistress, slugs pop on coincutter(gotta kill slugs so war doesnt get amnisaed), drg more then monk got shafted i think since a pack of mnks can just zerg mistress. so thats why i think if they either got a boost to hp or better survive ability options (featherfoot can dodge all moves or dodges 2 moves, maybe drg gets more def or something,)

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Basically I got: "SE should balance classes around idiots because ppl are bound to be stupid"

Disagree with the first part, agree with the 2nd. Ppl are bound to be stupid but no class should be balanced around the actions of morons. MNK and DRG are fine imo, ppl just need to learn how to not be stupid. As you can see for yourself by reading the forums, it is an impossible task. Let idiots do waht they do, ppl just need to remember that an idiot is not a reflection of the job.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Basically I got: "SE should balance classes around idiots because ppl are bound to be stupid"

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The sad thing is, I would not enjoy that type of stance from SE, but the resulting game would probably be popular and successful

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Originally Posted by Raygun

Honestly, I don't see a reason to.

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I do.

Play the job you like best, you'll be much happier.