I'll be quite happy with all the comms and Materia thank you. While the three of you that actually do this sit in the corner somewhere and seethe impotently.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner
A good old boyish cott
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10-25-2019, 10:10 AMRazard
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10-25-2019, 11:27 AMLagomorph
Going to reply to the things you've said throughout this thread...
Do you have any proof that this is why healers were changed to be the way that they were? I don't think that you do. If this were the case, don't you think that all the dps jobs would have single button rotations too, because some people can't even handle pressing 1 button and doing mechanics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
As much as I hate what WoW has become, I do think that healing in WoW is far more engaging and enjoyable than healing in this game. As that is my opinion and nothing more, I see no reason to justify it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
I don't feel like splitting this up into multiple quotes, but here are a few points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
1. No, most healers don't want a dps rotation. Did healers have a dps rotation in stormblood and heavensward? I don't recall much complaining about healer rotations back then.
2. No, varied playstyles do not create job descrepencies. I don't believe you actually know what you're talking about on this point. I can elaborate on why playstyles are unrelated to balance in another post if you like.
3. I actually agree that carbuncle on a healer is pointless.
4. Literally not once when I played white mage did people blame wipes on me for not playing ast. Unless you frequently play this game in a speedrun-esque environment, then I'm going to say that this likely never happened to you either.
5. SE can easily add buttons that barely impact a class's dps that raise the skill ceiling while still keeping the skill floor low. They've done it for other jobs (see samurai 3rd eye, among others), and I don't really see why it can't be done with healers.
That depends. What kind of content are you doing? Are you doing savage fights? Did the group enrage? Were you just standing around for large periods of time doing nothing? If yes to all of these, then yeah you kind of deserved to be called out. Basically, if you're doing the latest content, you should be expected to pull your weight. If you were not pulling your weight in stormblood, I highly doubt that would change with the new single-button healer rotations without some effort on your own part to get better as a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
Quote where someone has said "Pfft, that's hardly worth mentioning". I have not seen this being said. Also, 121212 is far better than 111111.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
Rotation complexity does not have to affect balance. I don't know why you think this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
After reading through most of this thread, I kind of get the feeling that once you had a bad encounter with someone in df with someone and you're bitter about it or something. A lot of the things that you're just saying straight up are not true. Do I think you'll listen to any of this? Probably not, but I posted this anyways I guess. -
10-25-2019, 03:46 PMMitsukiKimuraReddit seriously? I strongly recommend the old card system over this new one to ANY player that wants to play astrologian. New system is a dull, boring and lazy way to be creative about the class and I'm sorry you think it's better than the old one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkthor
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10-25-2019, 04:04 PMVoidedge_Ragna
If maybe 5% of players read the forum i would be suprised, you will never be able to boycott something this way.
The not enough healers wave has already passed, its back to "in need" for tanks again.
SE listens but their very very slow on job adjustments. Till we get them ill continue being sch whm and sometimes ast anyway. -
10-25-2019, 04:39 PMvtndll
Sure I'll join your boycott. I'm already nearly exclusively playing dancer so it's not that big of a change for me. Unfortunately I don't think it will make a difference, but we'll see.
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10-25-2019, 05:26 PMDiznypKCFunny. Last time I read it, it was packed with comments from players who have quit healing to various extents. Doesn’t look like misinformation to me. Maybe you have faulty reading comprehension. *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
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10-25-2019, 05:51 PMCrimsonGunneron my duty finder, tank and healer demand always switch every so often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna
if SE really is listening then at least let us know they read the concerns.
if we get an answer like "we read your feedback's and will look into this" or "we don't think those concerns are valid" then it is fine for me , at least that way i will know what their stand about them is and that they actually read our feedback.
although if they will say "they don't think they are valid", it will bum me out but at least i won't feel like i am in limbo or being unheard. -
10-25-2019, 06:04 PMSaefinnPrecisely this. Also we were running roulette last night, on 50,60,70 roulette, friend was on GNB, I was on dance, after 7 minutes waiting in queue I swapped to AST and got insta queue with healer in need. Healer in need is still a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner
We don't even need the changes right now, though itd be ideal, but the dev team have a certain number of resources and priorities to consider on where to spent them. It's just communication would go a long way, even if they believe healers are fine the way they are, we could either then spent time showing why it is not the case (like with MCH when they were told their job was fine) or accept that's the way it is and move on. -
10-25-2019, 06:17 PMLariaKirinThat tends to happen when you ignore the other half of the comments that say they have NOT quit healing. Perhaps you should read the content, rather than just the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiznypKC
When you call it a 31 page of people who quit healing, you are misrepresenting what is actually going on there, therefore spreading misinformation. -
10-26-2019, 06:44 AMDiznypKC*Sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
Girl, whatever. Players like you are part of the problem. And guess what? You’ve already won. You got stripped down, brain dead healers and are successfully chasing decent players away from the role, and game, altogether.
I’ve been maining healers longer than I can count at this point, and this is hands down the worst iteration of the role. Period. Did you know that back in 2.0 we had to HARD CAST heals because we weren’t oGCD gods? And we still had downtime to DPS. But at least it was interesting.
This...whatever this is, is no longer fun. But go ahead, tell me that I don’t deserve to have fun in a game I’ve spent hundreds of dollars and hours on for your sake. Seems fair.
Go ahead and ignore those of us who just want to enjoy the game again. Please, actually, just ignore us. Don’t come at us and tell us to play other roles. Don’t you dare. Just shove off and keep pressing your 1-2 combination and smiling simply as you do.
You win. Happy? -
10-26-2019, 07:31 AMNonocu
Healing is boring now but I don't trust other healers enough to do the job.
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10-26-2019, 07:35 AMBillythepancakeHas definitely been my experience. I'd still rather deal with a bad healer rather than being stuck with it, but I've noticed almost every healer I've gotten as a GNB has been anywhere between barely passable to downright awful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonocu
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10-26-2019, 06:52 PMLariaKirinI'm simply calling out your misrepresentation of that thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiznypKC
I don't know what triggered your emotional rant, but don't take it personally. -
10-26-2019, 08:24 PMCeasariaUsually I do new contents as healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloprano
But I read this thread, and I remember what I feeled when I compared my SCH, WHM and SAM experience on Innocence EX.
For the 1st time on this game, I had more fun with a dps than with a healer.
It's always fun to heal new content for the first time and especially raid 24 where the chaos rules.
But after thinking about this, I am telling myself that try and survive as SAM could be more fun (and less annoying than rez dozen of times in 20 min combat lenght).
So yeah, apart playing healer with my raid group, I will now play SAM in roulette (it will fit well Nier raid, furthermore ^^).
You have my vote ! -
10-26-2019, 11:37 PMMaekaAssuming you are talking about Duty Finder, as long as people aren't dying, maybe one shouldn't be so picky?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
I don't know about anybody else, but personally when I Q up for Duty Finder, and we simply get through the dungeon without people dying, I'm happy with that. What I hate are tanks who overpull and wipe the group when they aren't geared to do such overpulling (or they don't use their mitigation buttons properly), or worse when a tank overpulls and then proceeds to try that very same pull again but with the healer's stuff on cooldown thinking that is somehow going to work, or when healers decide to just let people drop dead because they were too busy spamming their DPS spell, or what-not.
But if we get through a dungeon and the healer and tank ensure there are no wipes, I'm happy. Heck, I'm happy even if we do wipe once or twice, provided such wipe was for a reasonable reason. Accidents can happen, I'm not one of those spoiled brats who drop group at the first wipe. I'm not a quitter like some people I've seen in duty finder who drop group if there's one wipe. Or worse, somebody who drops group if they see newbie bonus in a trial.
I think people are just plain getting spoiled and they want Savage-level performance out of Non-Savage players which make up the vast majority of the playerbase and they gripe, grumble, and groan because your average player just doesn't play at that level. It's why I have really gotten this dislike towards many of the vocal savage players who are quick to look down their nose at the common player. Yeah, sorry I'm not top percentile. But I don't let my groups wipe either, under normal circumstances.
It's attitudes like this that really annoy me, when people say "almost every healer .... has been between barely passable to downright awful". That's complete hyperbole, because I have seen plenty of healers in my duty finder who do just fine and not let the groups wipe. But then I suppose if "downright awful" means being anything less than the top 10% on FFLogs, then.... *shrug* Maybe you should just stick to only doing Roulettes with your FC, that way the rest of us wouldn't have to deal with attitudes like this. Sounds like it'd be a win-win for everybody involved, to be honest.
One can have the biggest Seattle Space Needle nose in the world, but as long as it's in Seattle far away from where I can see it, then I don't care. But if you stick that thing in my backyard, then I care.
And I love it when people talk like "Oh, the GOOD players like US are leaving the game because of crappy players like YOU" .... well, you know what? Go ahead. The rest of us, the majority, will continue to happily play while the vocal minority ragequits. Don't act like you're God's Gift to FFXIV. That makes you look very self-entitled and it's rather unbecoming. -
10-26-2019, 11:55 PMSylvain
I'd sell my time for roulette queue XD
healer lf roulette partner, 250k for expert -
10-27-2019, 12:07 AMMaekaAnd this leads me to something else that annoys me highly... healers who think that people should pay them for a mutually beneficial arrangement. You go into Expert to get your Phantasmagoria, just like the rest of the group, but YOU think you deserve 250,000 gil just to give other players the privileged of Qing up with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
It just sounds like an over abundance of self-worth and self-pride IMO.
I happily Q up every day as healer and while I don't top logs, people rarely die under my watch unless they do something that can't be healed through. Well, I was doing that until I capped Phantasmagoria on my healer. -
10-27-2019, 12:24 AMAurturiaIt's not really about deserve I think. At the end of the day you're not paying for the right to have a healer, you're paying to cut the front of the line. It's less "I demand payment for my service" then it is "sure I'll accept money for something I might have done anyways" because hey free money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
It's not like you HAVE to pay to get in a roulette. I for one gave up my healing fast pass, and I dont think a 10 minute queue is all that bad. -
10-27-2019, 12:36 AMSaefinnBefore assuming what they meant by "barely passable to downright awful" check what they meant by it. Because people's measure of what is "good" and "bad" is variable. To me passable would be, "we struggled a lot, it was a difficult pass, but we got there" and downright awful would be "it's a horrible dungeon run, deaths all over, they struggled a lot, we really had to clench it with some carrying, it was a mess all over the place, the healer didn't listen at all". I've been in a lot of the same threads as Billy and have yet to see something as elitist and mean spirited as you're suggesting, though of course Billy can speak for themselves in this respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
But most of the people I've been engaging on this forum who are unhappy with the changes have been fine with players who don't play at a savage level and don't care so much if people aren't playing optimally. In most content it doesn't matter. It is only savage & ultimate where it does matter.
Your biggest issue with the compromise I suggested was how it'd affect people what jobs people favour in such content. As long as all jobs are capable of passing content, it's really only the high percentile groups that care about meta who exclude players based on their job choice (or expect them to change). And non-high percentile groups who don't know better.
Nobody here is suggesting we chase out casual players, so I don't see why you're okay with chasing out people who aren't enjoying things the way you are?
And it's not just hardcore players, elitists and savage players who're unhappy. It's not just casuals who're happy (eg: a friend who is one of the server's top Monks for savage seems to be enjoying WHM).
I'm not even a savage player myself, I don't consider myself hardcore, there's plenty of healers who're a lot better than me and nor do I look down on players who struggle. I think it is good they can be accommodated. People play for the social aspect, the story, the roleplay and may enjoy the fights, content and so on.
But I'm still getting 30-60% downtime in my runs of content I do and getting bored of spamming the same thing over and over in that downtime. My co-healer is exactly the same, who's a WHM.
A low skill floor is perfectly acceptable.
But the ceiling doesn't need to be low either (and not boring).
There's multiple ways both can be accommodated. But to accept them as players we need to:- Set aside our obsession with "optimal" play in content where it doesn't matter
- Accept our comfortable way of playing may not be the optimal way of playing.
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10-27-2019, 04:10 AMMaekaI get the impression that "bad" in the eyes of someone like the one I quoted is more like "OMG that dungeon run took us 25 minutes! My FC coulda done it in 15!" even if there were no deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
I certainly have encountered people grumbling on both forums and occasionally in-game, about "meh" DPS and not being able to pull multiple groups because of a healer not being geared up or something. Or worse, when DPS get impatient and wanna start pulling extra groups even if the tank and healer don't think it's a good idea. Or the tank grabbing extra mobs when he shouldn't, and causes a wipe and everybody proceeds to blame the healer.
But yet they are suggesting changes that would impact the whole game, negatively for a large number of players that are more casual?Quote:
But most of the people I've been engaging on this forum who are unhappy with the changes have been fine with players who don't play at a savage level and don't care so much if people aren't playing optimally. In most content it doesn't matter. It is only savage & ultimate where it does matter.
My biggest complaint against the proposed compromise was I don't think it would be a good thing when you make one job significantly more difficult or easy over another. Again we'll go back to the Dave thing: What if somebody likes the Aesthetics that Dave brings but doesn't want Dave to be that boring? What if a casual enjoys the aesthetics of AST, but can't hack the complicated playstyle? Should both be locked out of enjoying those jobs?Quote:
Your biggest issue with the compromise I suggested was how it'd affect people what jobs people favour in such content. As long as all jobs are capable of passing content, it's really only the high percentile groups that care about meta who exclude players based on their job choice (or expect them to change). And non-high percentile groups who don't know better.
I suppose that's a good point, it's just a few vocal minority that are raising their voices the loudest. I wonder what the actual % of players are who are content. 80%? 90%? 70%? Who knows. SE seems to think it's the vast majority who like the content otherwise they'd change it.Quote:
And it's not just hardcore players, elitists and savage players who're unhappy. It's not just casuals who're happy (eg: a friend who is one of the server's top Monks for savage seems to be enjoying WHM).
If they can devise some way of making things "Interesting" but yet not make said changes "required" or people start dying or we get flak in groups, well.... ok, fine.Quote:
A low skill floor is perfectly acceptable.
But the ceiling doesn't need to be low either (and not boring).
If I can still log on the "hardest" job and still clear most Duty Finder content, and not get chewed out of groups or wipes happen because they made the job too complex, then the people who so eagerly want such things can have their extra 2-3 DPS buttons that adds 10% DPS or what-not.
Good luck getting people to do the first point...Quote:
There's multiple ways both can be accommodated. But to accept them as players we need to:- Set aside our obsession with "optimal" play in content where it doesn't matter
- Accept our comfortable way of playing may not be the optimal way of playing.
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10-27-2019, 04:24 AMBillythepancakeWay to take 1 line and apply no context to it, kek. I don't expect optimization from a DF healer, I don't expect anything, tbh. While they're not all bad, the ones I tend to run into can barely handle 1 trash pack, no matter how I try to space CDs. I didn't say EVERY healer, I've specifically said the ones I'VE run into. I'm aware there are plenty of good/decent healers out there, maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows. And my definitions was more towards, how well can they handle the trash mobs, I don't parse normal content, I genuinely don't care what DPS the healer is pulling, what I do see though is a SCH spamming physic, not using his aetherflow that heals more and is instant cast, or a WHM that never uses tetra. I'd like to help and give advice, but if there's one thing this game has taught me, it doesn't matter how nice with my advice I try to be, people don't want to accept criticism, or being told that they could be doing better and I'm in danger of being called an "elitist" for DARING to ever suggest an improvement. You're the one that has it in their head I'm this super duper "YOU MUST DO THIS AND BE THIS GOOD OR YOURE GARBAGE RADA RADA" like, mate, I just want a decent pace when I'm doing dungeons, that's it, lmao, and yes, I expect healers to know the bare basics of their class to help make that happen, how awfully elitist of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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10-27-2019, 05:04 AMMaekaI would say you are very unlucky because those certainly haven't been my experiences, and I should know, I'm one who is very guilty at seeing the negatives in things far too often, or at least friends tell me that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
It's good that you give advice, though... based upon your reponses I've seen in other threads, perhaps... maybe try smoothing it over a little more? Especially if it's just a random person who didn't ask for advice?Quote:
And my definitions was more towards, how well can they handle the trash mobs, I don't parse normal content, I genuinely don't care what DPS the healer is pulling, what I do see though is a SCH spamming physic, not using his aetherflow that heals more and is instant cast, or a WHM that never uses tetra. I'd like to help and give advice, but if there's one thing this game has taught me, it doesn't matter how nice with my advice I try to be, people don't want to accept criticism, or being told that they could be doing better and I'm in danger of being called an "elitist" for DARING to ever suggest an improvement.
My theory is that a lot of people have been burned by elitists and when a well-meaning one tries to give advice..... hey, I'm not elitist and I've tried to give advice only to get snapped at myself, I know what you mean there, but... well, that's the consequences of elitism really.
Well, maybe it's just you weren't communicating that very well or something? I dunno. But I suppose if all you want is to not die and the tank to be able to pull normal pulls... I don't fault you for that, no. It's just you spent half of the thread seemingly going on and on about how everybody should be optimizing and playing awesomely and it kinda... sounds off-putting to those who just want to clear duty finder content reasonably.Quote:
You're the one that has it in their head I'm this super duper "YOU MUST DO THIS AND BE THIS GOOD OR YOURE GARBAGE RADA RADA" like, mate, I just want a decent pace when I'm doing dungeons, that's it, lmao, and yes, I expect healers to know the bare basics of their class to help make that happen, how awfully elitist of me.
Hats off to the savage raiders who squeeze every .1% of DPS out, sure. Just as long as they aren't getting all uppity with me because I come home after work and just wanna do my daily expert because phantasmagoria gear is the best gear I really have access to, and just wanna clear the dungeon, not really caring if it takes us 15, 20, or heck even 30 minutes.
I will admit though, I did grumble (to my FC, not to the group) about a 45 (!!!) minute Temple of Qarn (with almost no deaths other than the first boss...) run a couple weeks ago. That was.... rather terrible, I'll admit. There are reasonable limits. That wasn't the healer's fault though, that was two sprout DPS who were wearing 10 levels out of date non-HQ crafted/vendor bought junk and the healer was in dungeon gear from, IIRC, Toto-Rak or something and wasn't even DPSing at all. I was the tank so there's not much I could have done to speed that up.