MMORPGs How they have changed for the better? or worse?

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yet it isn't.

Videogames are confirmed to activate the very same processes and brain interconnections than several kind of drugs.

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Which doesn't actually mean much if you have any idea how dopamine works and what role it plays in the brain.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yet it isn't.

Videogames are confirmed to activate the very same processes and brain interconnections than several kind of drugs. In fact in some cases even physiological effects have been documented, rare occurrence but still there. Let alone what social isolation does to basic brain functions - And guess just what videogames in general do. Social Isolation.
Specially in the case of people who plays for several, several hours. I'm not talking about 2-4 hours. Im talking about teenagers or NEET adults that can spend well over +10 hours daily. That is particularly unhealthy for people with already diagnosed psychological or psychiatric sickness. Last thing you want a person with depression do is to spend his whole life in a room watching a monitor not interacting with anyone. Which a good chuck of populations in several countries are doing.

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I am going to have to disagree with this from my personal experience.

My guild back in the early days of ffxi pulled me out of a horrid depression. I was nearing the point of just giving up completely. It gave me a community of people to talk to, people hang out with on a daily basis. The guild gave me structure to focus my thoughts on. And when I became an office it gave me a feeling of purpose again. That is the thing about mmos, you are not playing 10+hrs a day without interaction or social isolation, you are spending 10hrs a day interacting with people from across the globe. There are people I call friends in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Germany, UK, Honghong, Japan, Australia, Spain, Mexico, Canada, and throughout the US. I meet my future wife in Chicago on this game for example. Alot of my ffxi guild members I still have contact with today nearly 15yrs later. I remember when we were starting college together, or in many of thier cases just Juniors in HS. Now many have kids and families. Many I have met in real life.

Who ever did the study about mmos causing social isolation... well is just wrong it is literally the opposite. (Well use to be... why mmos have changed for the worse)

MMOs provide social interaction not remove it. Are they addicting yes they are. When my account was hacked back in ffxi and it took SE, 2 weeks to unlock it and get it back. I slept horribly, didn't eat well, couldn't focus well in college, and was in a state of constant stress. So I agree it is addicting. But then again almost everything we like is not just the bad stuff.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Which doesn't actually mean much if you have any idea how dopamine works and what role it plays in the brain.

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Is exactly because how dopamine works that is such the effect.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I am going to have to disagree with this from my personal experience.

My guild back in the early days of ffxi pulled me out of a horrid depression. I was nearing the point of just giving up completely. It gave me a community of people to talk to, people hang out with on a daily basis. The guild gave me structure to focus my thoughts on. And when I became an office it gave me a feeling of purpose again. That is the thing about mmos, you are not playing 10+hrs a day without interaction or social isolation, you are spending 10hrs a day interacting with people from across the globe. There are people I call friends in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Germany, UK, Honghong, Japan, Australia, Spain, Mexico, Canada, and throughout the US. I meet my future wife in Chicago on this game for example. Alot of my ffxi guild members I still have contact with today nearly 15yrs later. I remember when we were starting college together, or in many of thier cases just Juniors in HS. Now many have kids and families. Many I have met in real life.

Who ever did the study about mmos causing social isolation... well is just wrong it is literally the opposite. (Well use to be... why mmos have changed for the worse)

MMOs provide social interaction not remove it. Are they addicting yes they are. When my account was hacked back in ffxi and it took SE, 2 weeks to unlock it and get it back. I slept horribly, didn't eat well, couldn't focus well in college, and was in a state of constant stress. So I agree it is addicting. But then again almost everything we like is not just the bad stuff.

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Cool personal experience.
And no, talking with people over a screen or interface doesn't qualify as social interaction. Not at least from the perspective of a healthy biosocial development.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

And no, talking with people over a screen or interface doesn't qualify as social interaction. Not at least from the perspective of a healthy biosocial development.

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Now you're just gatekeeping. Nobody asked for the perspective of "healthy biosocial development".

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Is exactly because how dopamine works that is such the effect.

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How do you think dopamine works?

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Originally Posted by Edax

And yet there are clear distinct differences between illegal drugs and video games. You found some points of commonality between two things and you're using that as an excuse to call video games "drugs", but that is still nonsense. You can link coffee and drugs and claim they activate the very same processes and brain interconnections with several kind of drugs, but it will 1.- Still come off as nonsense if you call Starbucks a drug dealer.

You are making the 2.- Grave mistake of equating a lifestyle to suicide. How one chooses to live their life is completely antithetical to ending it. 3.- If you believe playing video games are a form of suicide, then that is because of your subjective viewpoints on what living life is.

By a different subjective measure, it can be said that those who engage in forms of entertainment have a zest for life. I'm afraid your not being very objective when it comes to the topic of video games and other people's lifestyle choices.

I support people seeking happiness regardless of employment or education status. You call it passive suicide, I call it life.

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1.- Actually don't, it is a drug and in case it makes the person unable to have proper social interactions, a healthy lifestyle and/or care for their mental health in general. Then again caffeine addicts exist and caffeine is an actual drug. Legalized or Illegal doesn't change the fact that they are drugs and prolonged, out of control and socially endanring drugs can be both legal and illegal. It doesn't matter if its videogames, trans-fat or cocaine, addiction acts the same on the social behavior of the person and it's brain functions.

2.- You are making the grave mistake of confusing any lifestyle with a healthy lifestyle. You might fool yourself to think that being morbidly obese or spend all your life in a room playing video games is a HEALTHY lifestyle, it isn't. Period.

3.- Stop twisting words btw. I said that a person that already suffers from mental illness is in a dire situation if it's supported on their conditioned behaviors to keep an unhealthy lifestyle of social isolation. Then again, you keep on saying that im saying that videogames are causing these issues when i've said like 5, six with this, that videogames are not the cause, they are just like really bad to them, in general.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Nobody asked for the perspective of "healthy biosocial development".

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People that think human life, quality of life, and a proper mental health are important do care.
Ask any psychiatrist or psychologist about the idea of mentally ill person spending +10 hours without social interaction (basic human contact) and if its a valid "lifestyle". Valid, probably. Healthy? Come on.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

How do you think dopamine works?

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Neutrotransmiter associated with motivation-reward. Some people produce more than others. Neuroreceptors in some cases don't actually recept them and in others just go wild and only recept them. You might be tempted to say "Is the dopamine insuficiency or self immunity" which causes depression. Yes it is. And guess what doesn't help in the proper threatment of such ilness. Spending your whole life stuck in a skinner box that barely stimulates your neuronal networks, literally dumbing you down to basic stimuli and quite literally deteriorating your brain increasing the chances of further brain damage or brain diseases through the roof and beyond.

Stop. Glorifying. Depression or anxiety disorders or any mental illness for that matter.
They are not healthy lifestyles. Is an illness, that needs both pharmaceutical and psycho-therapy.

If we were discussing morbidly obesse people... Oh wait, there is a whole legion of people that actually thinks that is also a "lifestyle".

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

1.- Actually don't, it is a drug and in case it makes the person unable to have proper social interactions, a healthy lifestyle and/or care for their mental health in general. Then again caffeine addicts exist and caffeine is an actual drug. Legalized or Illegal doesn't change the fact that they are drugs and prolonged, out of control and socially endanring drugs can be both legal and illegal. It doesn't matter if its videogames, trans-fat or cocaine, addiction acts the same on the social behavior of the person and it's brain functions.

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And do you go around calling Starbucks a drug dealer then?

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

You are just supporting a passive form of suicide.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Specially the point about NEETs, need more info, check the documental "Love Child" for example, a clear documentary on the pandemic that is videogame addiction in South Korea and by extension countries like japan and other developing countries.
And my grade thesis was a bit about psychology of gamers in relationship with learning processes and yes, found a lot of evidence for a subportion of the subjects (NEETs mostly) which presented several psychological disorders that were only reinforced by their exposition to videogames, MMORPGs and MMOs in general being the most recurrent "drug".

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

2.- You are making the grave mistake of confusing any lifestyle with a healthy lifestyle. You might fool yourself to think that being morbidly obese or spend all your life in a room playing video games is a HEALTHY lifestyle, it isn't. Period.

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You are moving the goalposts here. Not living a healthy lifestyle and "passive suicide" are not remotely the same thing. I'm sure me being a non-vegetarian is not as healthy a lifestyle as a vegetarian, but if you were to call eating meat "passive suicide" then that would be ridiculous hyperbole. No one needs to be shamed for not living a "healthy lifestyle", especially if it compromises a person's happiness. Implying that NEETs are unhealthy junkies is extremely disrespectful and it appears to be me that you are doing video game addicts more harm than good with your excessive exaggerations and personal bias'.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

But you cannot justify social/reality escapism, let alone when that escapism is something that is supporting said unhealthy society in the first place (operational conditioning for mass consumption of goods and media - Videogame addicts.)

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I can and I will. Escapism is not a crime, it is not morally wrong, and it is not for you to decide that it can or cannot be supported. It's your subjective opinion that society is unhealthy.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Im talking about teenagers or NEET adults that can spend well over +10 hours daily. That is particularly unhealthy for people with already diagnosed psychological or psychiatric sickness. Last thing you want a person with depression do is to spend his whole life in a room watching a monitor not interacting with anyone.

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No, the last thing you want to happen to a person with depression is to take what little happiness they have away from them. What's paramount to a person with depression is happiness, not health.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Is exactly because how dopamine works that is such the effect.
And no, talking with people over a screen or interface doesn't qualify as social interaction. Not at least from the perspective of a healthy biosocial development.

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Sorry to pick this out from pages back -
MMOs can be quite beneficial to social development. Older adults can benefit from forming meaningful friendships online, and those with Autism Spectrum Disorder can learn new social skills in a "safer" (ie - less intimidating) environment. (Only 2 examples pulled, I could be here alllll day though)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...47563215004057

https://www.aane.org/video-games-ben...special-needs/

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Originally Posted by Edax

No, the last thing you want to happen to a person with depression is to take what little happiness they have away from them. What's paramount to a person with depression is happiness, not health.

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Thank you, dear advocate!
As someone who has battled with depression and PTSD for years, it is extremely important to be able to find the joy in things. Anhedonia is absolutely awful - it's like going from color TV to black & white; there's no joy in ANYTHING and it's beyond miserable.
I still struggle to find enjoyment in things - videogames are one thing that does bring me some joy every now and again, and being able to seize that joy can help on the road to recovery. It's almost like you've got to teach yourself to feel again, because let's face it - a good deal of the time (different for everyone, so generalizing) the medicine that is given does help insofar as that it stops the crippling lows, but it's not exactly stellar when it comes to opening up emotional range. You end up just....existing.

I get plenty of in person social interaction though my work especially, and on occasion outside of it, but I'm so damn mentally drained that videogaming helps to bridge the gap between solitude and socialization by allowing me to socialize as much or as little as I want without the stresses of in-person interaction.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Neutrotransmiter associated with motivation-reward. Some people produce more than others. Neuroreceptors in some cases don't actually recept them and in others just go wild and only recept them. You might be tempted to say "Is the dopamine insuficiency or self immunity" which causes depression. Yes it is. And guess what doesn't help in the proper threatment of such ilness. Spending your whole life stuck in a skinner box that barely stimulates your neuronal networks, literally dumbing you down to basic stimuli and quite literally deteriorating your brain increasing the chances of further brain damage or brain diseases through the roof and beyond.

Stop. Glorifying. Depression or anxiety disorders or any mental illness for that matter.
They are not healthy lifestyles. Is an illness, that needs both pharmaceutical and psycho-therapy.

If we were discussing morbidly obesse people... Oh wait, there is a whole legion of people that actually thinks that is also a "lifestyle".

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Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Reducing dopamine to motivation and reward is grossly oversimplifying it, as well as misrepresenting the role it plays in that area.

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Originally Posted by Edax

1.- And do you go around calling Starbucks a drug dealer then?

2.- I can and I will. Escapism is not a crime, it is not morally wrong, and it is not for you to decide that it can or cannot be supported. It's your subjective opinion that society is unhealthy.

3.- No, the last thing you want to happen to a person with depression is to take what little happiness they have away from them. What's paramount to a person with depression is happiness, not health.

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1.- Yes, they deal a drug (several in fact). Keep trying to play with the "illegal-legal" thingy, drugs are drugs, addictions are addictions, and if a drug addiction makes a person unable to achieve or keep a healthy lifestyle... It doesn't matter much if its legal or illegal, is damaging them and exposure has to end.
2.- Is not a crime, is not morally wrong, and no i do not decide. Yet, i'm not expressing my opinion. Is an objective fact that we live in a mentally ill society, we are seeing depression and other mental illness pandemics all over the developed and even some in developing countries, with terrible numbers to back it up. Like massive increases in the last 2 decades of teenage and young adult suicides all across the globe.
3.- That is the very definition of learned helplessness. "Nothing else can make me happy, so i just stick with this till it kills me." 21st millennial nihilism at it's finnest, or worse.

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Originally Posted by Nix

Sorry to pick this out from pages back -
MMOs can be quite beneficial to social development. Older adults can benefit from forming meaningful friendships online, and those with Autism Spectrum Disorder can learn new social skills in a "safer" (ie - less intimidating) environment.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...47563215004057

https://www.aane.org/video-games-ben...special-needs/

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Excellent articles, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Reducing dopamine to motivation and reward is grossly oversimplifying it, as well as misrepresenting the role it plays in that area.

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I'm not a neurobiologist, and this is an MMORPG forum, not my doctorate thesis. Yes, it is simplified, yet is what they mainly work at, and yes, dopamine regulates other processes too, but the chemistry in our brains still a whole new world to keep studying and learning. Neurobiology is amazing and neurochemistry even more so. So much to study and learn.

Yet, you know what is not that "unknown" anymore? The effects of long periods of isolation and lack of significant human contact and healthy social relationships on people with depression. Case. Check the Hikikomori Syndrome - Social Withdrawal. And how is spreading like wildfire through the western world. Capitalism and Neoliberalism lifestyles failed promises and fantasies aside, last thing you want is these people to keep their habits. They are being literally killed by modern society, learned helplessness and their addiction. You can threat one at the time, and since we are not moving into a cyclical resource-energy based economy that allow for a better more humane world anytime soon, in the mean time i rather work on what we can change: Teach these people that there is hope, that things can change.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

I'm not a neurobiologist, and this is an MMORPG forum, not my doctorate thesis. Yes, it is simplified, yet is what they mainly work at, and yes, dopamine regulates other processes too, but the chemistry in our brains still a whole new world to keep studying and learning. Neurobiology is amazing and neurochemistry even more so. So much to study and learn.

Yet, you know what is not that "unknown" anymore? The effects of long periods of isolation and lack of significant human contact and healthy social relationships on people with depression. Case. Check the Hikikomori Syndrome - Social Withdrawal. And how is spreading like wildfire through the western world. Capitalism and Neoliberalism lifestyles failed promises and fantasies aside, last thing you want is these people to keep their habits. They are being literally killed by modern society, learned helplessness and their addiction. You can threat one at the time, and since we are not moving into a cyclical resource-energy based economy that allow for a better more humane world anytime soon, in the mean time i rather work on what we can change: Teach these people that there is hope, that things can change.

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If you have the means to do so, I'd recommend seeking out a therapist.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Is an objective fact that we live in a mentally ill society

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You are incorrect. There is no objective "this is a mentally ill society and this a not a mentally ill society" metric.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

3.- That is the very definition of learned helplessness. "Nothing else can make me happy, so i just stick with this till it kills me." 21st millennial nihilism at it's finnest, or worse.

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No it's not. Millennials aren't saying "nothing can make me happy". And seeking happiness is not nihilism.

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Originally Posted by Edax

1.- You are incorrect. There is no objective "this is a mentally ill society and this a not a mentally ill society" metric.

2.- No it's not. Millennials aren't saying "nothing can make me happy". And seeking happiness is not nihilism.

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1.- I am correct. In fact there is, actually exists a WHOle World Health Organization that does exactly that, study and categorize in an objetive manner the health, including mental health, of societies arround the world. Spoiler alert. Western World is mentally ill and facing a serious pandemic of social-whitdrawal syndrome, depression, anxiety and stress disorders and others. A whole emisphere, OBJECTIVELY MENTALLY ILL.

2.- Seeking happiness as in shutting in cutting all social relationships and allowing a skinner box operative program destroys their brain and further develops unthreated mental illnesses increasing chances of suicide through the roof. You really need to work on your concept of Happiness. Specially to make it something far more significant than "Something that pleasures me".

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

If you have the means to do so, I'd recommend seeking out a therapist.

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Already did.
Thanks for the good advice.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

1.- Yes, they [Starbuck] deal a drug (several in fact). Keep trying to play with the "illegal-legal" thingy, drugs are drugs, addictions are addictions, and if a drug addiction makes a person unable to achieve or keep a healthy lifestyle... It doesn't matter much if its legal or illegal, is damaging them and exposure has to end..

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

1.- I am correct. In fact there is, actually exists a WHOle World Health Organization that does exactly that, study and categorize in an objetive manner the health, including mental health, of societies arround the world. Spoiler alert. Western World is mentally ill and facing a serious pandemic of social-whitdrawal syndrome, depression, anxiety and stress disorders and others. A whole emisphere, OBJECTIVELY MENTALLY ILL.

2.- Seeking happiness as in shutting in cutting all social relationships and allowing a skinner box operative program destroys their brain and further develops unthreated mental illnesses increasing chances of suicide through the roof. You really need to work on your concept of Happiness. Specially to make it something far more significant than "Something that pleasures me".

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1. Please cite where the World Health Organization has declared an entire hemisphere mentally ill.

2. Skinner boxes do not destroy brains, they would obviously be illegal if that were the case. And no, I don't need to work on my concept of happiness. I'll will not seek medical advice from someone who has ranted about society being mentally ill or rants about how coffee shop baristas are drug dealers. If you did this out in public, there is a legitimate chance you might be checked into a mental asylum.

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1.- I am correct. In fact there is, actually exists a WHOle World Health Organization that does exactly that, study and categorize in an objetive manner the health, including mental health, of societies arround the world. Spoiler alert. Western World is mentally ill and facing a serious pandemic of social-whitdrawal syndrome, depression, anxiety and stress disorders and others. A whole emisphere, OBJECTIVELY MENTALLY ILL.

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1. Neither WHO or IHME have ever taken this position.

2. Even if WHO HAD taken that position, they have, in recent years, taken radically different positions on what they consider mental health than the actual experts in the field. They have 0 mental health professionals on their current board


Also note, the WHO doesnt consider mass starvation in developing countries or North Korea to be a health issue...

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I'm not a neurobiologist, and this is an MMORPG forum, not my doctorate thesis

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And yet, you're arguing with people who arent pulling nonsense out of their rectums by flapping your arms around and screaming jibberish.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

1.- I am correct. In fact there is, actually exists a WHOle World Health Organization that does exactly that, study and categorize in an objetive manner the health, including mental health, of societies arround the world. Spoiler alert. Western World is mentally ill and facing a serious pandemic of social-whitdrawal syndrome, depression, anxiety and stress disorders and others. A whole emisphere, OBJECTIVELY MENTALLY ILL.

2.- Seeking happiness as in shutting in cutting all social relationships and allowing a skinner box operative program destroys their brain and further develops unthreated mental illnesses increasing chances of suicide through the roof. You really need to work on your concept of Happiness. Specially to make it something far more significant than "Something that pleasures me".

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You honestly have no idea what you're talking about and for your own benefit you should probably stop spouting this nonsense and go get an actual education on the subject. You are so thoroughly wrong and on such basic things that even a psych 101 class at a local community college should do you a world of good.

I'm entirely wrong. I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time in this thread. I'll retreat from it now.