Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

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Originally Posted by ColaSama

Excuse me but... the topic is "adding talent trees", not "changing of classes/jobs" nor "adding new specs like in WoW".

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Because for the longest time in WoW, what talents you picked determined what spec you were, want to be a healer? Pick talents that increase healing. People use WoW for reference all the time because it is very popular.

Off course people will try to find the optimal strategy.. Having people investing time to find it means they are invested in the game, right? Fighting the Meta is not a good approach.

My point was, to make something else than DPS matter, you needs something else that either matter as much or matter more. DPS can't be done without as long as there is HP because, ultimately, you want to kill the thing.

I'm not saying my example was perfect, but there's merit behind it: Whatever is optimal the DPS/Shield-Drain value for one boss won't be the same for the other one.. It won't even be the same between mobs and boss. My point is it will vary, it will be a stat that you can't just ignore. It will make it harder to say: This is the gearset you need and it needs that list of materai melded to it because it wouldn't be true for all situations.

Let's just healer peel the shield off? Okay, but they need to heal too, maybe it'll work perfect for one fight, then the next is AoE-intensive and it's the tank turn to peel it off..

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Off course people will try to find the optimal strategy.. Having people investing time to find it means they are invested in the game, right? Fighting the Meta is not a good approach.

My point was, to make something else than DPS matter, you needs something else that either matter as much or matter more. DPS can't be done without as long as there is HP because, ultimately, you want to kill the thing.

I'm not saying my exampe was perfect, but there's merit behind it: Whatever is optimal the DPS/Shield-Drain value for one boss won't be the same for the other one.. It won't even be the same between mobs and boss. My point is it will vary, it will be a stat that you can't just ignore. It will make it harder to say: This is the gearset you need and it needs that list of materai melded to it because it wouldn't be true for all situations.

Let's just healer peel the shield off? Okay, but they need to heal too, maybe it'll work perfect for one fight, then the next there's a lot of AoE and it's turn to the tank to peel it off..

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But wait, wouldnt that make it that some clases will be significantly better at one fight, so instead of a player being able to do all of the content with the class/job it chose, the player would have to have more than one job, or will all the jobs do the same thing? If you cant ignore the stat, it means a class (or talent) will be better at it, doesnt it? because if everyone is equally good at it then what is the point?

Talent trees in MMO can be implemented correctly, which means that different talents offer tools for different situations, they are not competing versus another but offer alternatives. However, this means that the game would actually need different content where different talent choices are needed. Let's say we have to choose between survivability or damage, there isn't really any content where survivability would be preferable. Although that could be done by making the survivability talent really good while offering only a minor dps boost. like let's say paladin can choose between 50% damage reduction cd or off gcd skill which deals like 200 potency every minute or so. At that point I could see both options being valid for progression groups, although the damage would still probably be preferred later.

People saying talent trees can't be balanced are not correct, even in current WoW there are some tiers which have 2 or 3 valid choices. FFXIV is just so rigid in it's content that making talents balanced would be pretty huge task that they are not gonna undertake most probably.

BTW don't take it too harshly if people strawman you or are just dicks generally, that tends to be the trend in every MMO forum; people lack basic argumental skills and jump to conclusions and present their opinions harshly while rejecting other opinions. This is still better than reddit where your thread would be dead with all the downvotes because you have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Look up Path of Exile too if you want a good example of "Unlimited Choices" but really only about 5 builds that work past a certain point.

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I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta.

On topic no talents aren't gonna help with "choice" Legion and WoD started this trend with talents every milestone and the talents ranged from meta > passable > garbage, people are gonna go with the best talents and not bother with the garbage ones. I did Mythic+ mostly in Legion and BfA and you'd go with the best talents for Blood DK which is what I played, you'd hardly switch your talents out even despite the modifiers for the week because the talents you had were already so strong compared to the other ones.

Would I like more choice in XIV? Sure, but I don't like the illusion of choice if it was a concrete thing that if I could swap between outside of raids to benefit me for another raid then maybe I could see that it'd be engaging.

OP here. I'm glad to see this discussion turning in a more constructive direction.

The way I see it, every expansion is going to bring new abilities to jobs. So you have four options:

1. Just add new ones
2. Upgrade existing ones, like Air Anchor and High Jump
3. Cut old ones to make room
4. Allow choice

Square has been doing 1, 2, and 3. Maybe they can do that forever, maybe not. 3 has caused a lot of bad feelings, like BRD losing Foe Requiem. 2 isn't very exciting in most cases. And 1 is unsustainable.

So maybe at some point they can give 4 a shot. The way I imagine it, it would be like the old cross-class UI (that is still used for crafting/gathering), except you'd only have skills from your own job.

As an example, say you have three slots to choose, but six skills. So for NIN in 6.0, you could choose three out of Trick Attack, Ten Chi Jin, Assassinate, Mesui, and a couple of new skills. It doesn't have to get more complicated than that.

That would allow players a little bit of agency in how the job feels and plays. Obviously the skills would have to be balanced within a certain percent to avoid useless "noob traps" and TA would have to be balanced to come out ahead in a group but behind when solo.

Yes, hardcore raiding groups are going to require the optimal build and that's OK. The rest of us could just use the skills we enjoy.

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Originally Posted by ColaSama

*thinking about WoW's talents clusterfuck and the many imbalances (looking at you Surrender to Madness from Legion)*

*thinking about people always taking the most optimal talents anyway*

*thinking about SE implementing a talent system out of the blue after nearly a decade and just after removing the cross job skills (the closest thing of a "talent tree" we got)*

I don't know buddy, I don't think it will ever change. I could be wrong but I don't feel like it will.

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Exactly my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta.

On topic no talents aren't gonna help with "choice" Legion and WoD started this trend with talents every milestone and the talents ranged from meta > passable > garbage, people are gonna go with the best talents and not bother with the garbage ones. I did Mythic+ mostly in Legion and BfA and you'd go with the best talents for Blood DK which is what I played, you'd hardly switch your talents out even despite the modifiers for the week because the talents you had were already so strong compared to the other ones.

Would I like more choice in XIV? Sure, but I don't like the illusion of choice if it was a concrete thing that if I could swap between outside of raids to benefit me for another raid then maybe I could see that it'd be engaging.

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Yeah, any build can work in PoE. That's why Berserkers were outnumbered by unpromoted Witches for a while, because they worked right? This is however something we can take to PMs.

The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of a talent system is interesting in a vacuum. But with context of the game's fights, how the devs balance, and the community; I do not see how adding talents changes much about the game beyond being fresh and different for about a month before the math gets cracked.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Yeah, any build can work in PoE. That's why Berserkers were outnumbered by unpromoted Witches for a while, because they worked right? This is however something we can take to PMs.

The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of a talent system is interesting in a vacuum. But with context of the game's fights, how the devs balance, and the community; I do not see how adding talents changes much about the game beyond being fresh and different for about a month before the math gets cracked.

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Sorry I didn't mean to come off as angry in texts I wasn't just putting that on there, and no worries it shoulda been taken to DMs you're right, and I agree after a month people would number crunch and get that up ASAP I like the idea it's just sadly as you said with the balance and game fights it wouldn't be feasible.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta

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You know, the term "Elder-viable" does exist for a reason. Not every build can do anything, let alone the hardest content, let alone in HC league.

But even if every build was "viable" (and they are clearly not, some great theorycrafters try many builds and find out that some are just worthless in the end, even with somewhat expensive gear), some are just too good when compared to others. Just look at Legion league : why play any other build at the start than EC Contagion ? It cleans the map in what, 2 seconds ? Compare it to melee.

Seriously, saying that every build is viable in PoE sounds a bit arrogant, when clearly it's not the case.

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Originally Posted by reyre

But wait, wouldnt that make it that some clases will be significantly better at one fight, so instead of a player being able to do all of the content with the class/job it chose, the player would have to have more than one job, or will all the jobs do the same thing? If you cant ignore the stat, it means a class (or talent) will be better at it, doesnt it? because if everyone is equally good at it then what is the point?

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No, the idea is to introduce variation in builds within a job, not changing the variation between jobs.

In essence, if you compare each job with a build where both stat are at 50%/50% of their max potential, then you get the same distribution as you get today. Then builds where stats are at 75/25 will hit harder, but sap shield less quickly. It introduce differences within the job, not across them. (In before) I'm talking about modifier relative values, not absolute values (no case of a party of 8 having put everything in one stat resulting in a invincible boss).

That said, it's only a thought experiment, a way to answer if there's a way to make something else than DPS matter. I don't see anything of the sort happening since SE has taken the route of simplifying the game (taking away player induced status and debuffs, restricting the amount of relevant stats for each jobs, unaspecting all magic damage, streamlining magic/physic damage to the point the line is too blured to really matter)

This has kind of been one of my main hangups with the game is the homogenization of the jobs and gear. It does kind of make you feel "just like everyone else". But on the other hand, balancing a system like that is a nightmare and that's why you see other games like WoW and GW2 completely butcher their talent trees by giving fewer choices and making them more rigid. Even then, when it seems like they're giving you a choice in your spec they're really just giving you the illusion of choice if you want to play the class optimally. Then it just becomes a chore for the player because they have to research the best builds for their class. I mean don't get me wrong, I know there are a lot of people that actually enjoy that and I'm one of them, but this is a game designed to cater to a large casual player base who probably don't want to deal with all of that.

Because of this I don't think they'll ever add them to this game. They've already completely removed custom stat speccing and gutted the cross class skills to simplify them even more. I think the closest we'll ever come to having customizable jobs is their iteration of BLU and whatever other limited jobs they decide to add.

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Originally Posted by Proxanna

Even then, when it seems like they're giving you a choice in your spec they're really just giving you the illusion of choice if you want to play the class optimally. Then it just becomes a chore for the player because they have to research the best builds for their class. I mean don't get me wrong, I know there are a lot of people that actually enjoy that and I'm one of them, but this is a game designed to cater to a large casual player base who probably don't want to deal with all of that.

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You make it sound like we don't already do this in FFXIV. Optimization happens in every game.

NIN is so bad that they'd just opt to never use it even in a group setting. I see your point, and actually agree with your post overall, but trust me, NIN needs A LOT more work than that atm.

skill tree from wow tbc or d2 plox

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Yes, hardcore raiding groups are going to require the optimal build and that's OK. The rest of us could just use the skills we enjoy.

(Note from ItsDevinHere) Cut this down so I could have my reply and you'd still be pinged.

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I've read through the whole thread. There's a few things I've noticed, first being you either ignore a comment by not replying to it (or you don't see it, ill give you some benefit of the doubt but my point still stands), or you simply try to make an counter-argument, but end up making the same argument, but just phrasing it different like you just did again, though I will give to you that you actually added a couple different things this time, but it took you 9 pages of responses to do that. You do though repeat yourself without trying to make a different case on why it's a good idea to have talents. You keep saying it's diverse and fun in a different way over and over, you gotta have more reasons than that for an MMO and counter why the other people are wrong about it making it less fun and not toxic, this isn't a single-player game where that can be considered fine and a good idea simply because it's diverse and more fun.

Second, your strawman argument you've thrown out like 10 times, I really don't think you know what that word means. Here's the definition "A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent." There was at no point in time that someone added words you didn't say. You stated that many other MMOs use talents and therefore FFXIV should be able to do it. People countered that by saying those MMOs generally do a bad job at it and it just ends up being a metapick for the best talents. You then stated that some MMOs do it correctly, then people asked you to give some examples, you then said it was a strawman argument. I don't think you meant it badly, but it just makes it sound like you don't know any MMOs that do it right, but don't want to be wrong, so you say his argument is invalid. I hope you understand where they're coming from now.

Third, and what has been reiterated about 30 times here. FFXIV is too rigid and is meant for people to easily pick up and play. Adding talents, will immediately complicate that and make it harder for new players because they now have to worry about picking talents, XIV is also just not designed in a way to allow talents, it's designed to balance the jobs, adding talents will further complicate that to where the devs would have to try to balance all these talents, and make sure that each different choice that someone can pick is the exact same viability as the other ones then on TOP of that they then have to balance that job with the other jobs, which is basically never going to happen for FFXIV, im sorry to tell you, Yoshi has said it himself as someone has stated.

Lastly, your argument that only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds and the rest of people will use the skills they will enjoy is false. One, no, not only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds, even casual raiders will use optimal builds. Literally look at basically any other MMO and you will see that even the casuals use the optimal builds. You will get kicked from a group for not having the optimal build, yes even in casual raids. But even beyond that point, I don't think you understand the affect adding skills would have on the community, if you think it's toxic now (which I completely disagree with) then you will be in for a surprise if they added skills. After a couple months of it being out, players will learn the optimal build, and now this build will be standard. Everybody will use it, anybody that doesn't use it will get either kicked from groups or yelled at, it will happen, it will not only be hardcore raiders, it happens in every MMO with talent trees that work like that. I've played a good number of MMOs in my years and even in dungeons people will get mad at you for having the wrong talents. This is just the life of talents, I think most people here want to avoid that.

I think your main issue, is that you don't want to be wrong/only your opinion is right. Everyone is just stating their opinions, and people are even conceding that the other side has some points on some things. But you consistently refuse to even acknowledge that the other side has a point, and just kept countering with the same argument, just look back at your comments to see. I think you just need to take a step back and realize what you're doing. It's okay not to win every argument you have. It seems like this thread and your comments is more of you stating your opinion as fact and everyone needs to agree with you.

The only complaint I personaly have is the MCH changes. The job has lost all it's identity for me. It was a job with a firearm, that you should to put some ammo in it. MANUALY. It was so FUN. But now all we have is the generic ranged DPS. No personality. You can just replace all of his "tech-design" effects on skills and won't even notice the change. He feels and plays GENERIC now, not unique, like it was before. It can't be changed back with some talents. They need to revert him back. And, tbh, this whole new summoned mecha looks and feels awfull, out of place and stupid. The job is dead for me.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

snip.

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Wut? How is it a generic ranged DPS when it now has a completely unique toolkit? The MCH before felt like a poor man's SMN, and other jobs could do what it did much better for less punishment. Now it's actually a Machinist -not a simple job with a gun, but using technology/tools-, if you wanted some kind of Gunslinger tooting John Wayne style job, you are probably unlikely to get that in this game.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Wut? How is it a generic ranged DPS when it now has a completely unique toolkit? The MCH before felt like a poor man's SMN, and other jobs could do what it did much better for less punishment. Now it's actually a Machinist -not a simple job with a gun, but using technology/tools-, if you wanted some kind of Gunslinger tooting John Wayne style job, you are probably unlikely to get that in this game.

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AS I TOLD BEFORE - replace any of his "technology/tools" efect on the skill and you will not see the difference. But in order to FEEL the job as a FIREARM user and TECHNOLOGY user they need to rework him. The reload mechanic was realy fun and added that feel of firearm. And, if you've leveled MCH before you would know that even whole job STORY are about implementing the commoners with firearm. IMPLEMENTING. FIREARM. And what do we have now? The generic ranged DPS. No individuality at all. The firearm and all those "tools", as you called them, are like any other gauge based skills. You don't need to reload, you don't need to actualy have some skill to use wildfire anymore. I've ENJOYED the MCH before. Not this time. It's bleak and empty now. They could've just leave the reload mechanic and make the skill rotation around it. That would've been so fun... But they made this job to easy and generic thus removed all it's identity with it.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

You make it sound like we don't already do this in FFXIV. Optimization happens in every game.

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That was my point. Why would they spend the time and resources trying to add and balance different skill trees if everyone is just going to go with the most optimal one anyways? That time is better spent just balancing the jobs as is and giving us new jobs to play.

I skipped to the end after 5 pages of talking in circles but did anyone bring up that the first version of cross role skills was supposed to be customization feature even though everyone wound up taking the same 5 mandatory skills?

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Originally Posted by Proxanna

That was my point. Why would they spend the time and resources trying to add and balance different skill trees if everyone is just going to go with the most optimal one anyways? That time is better spent just balancing the jobs as is and giving us new jobs to play.

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Because it's fun and add more versatility? Back in WoW, I would switch spec/talent on every boss. 1 boss need more burst aoe because the adds need to die quickly? Change talent. One boss need more single target dps? Change talent. One boss has multiple targets with high healthy? Change to Dot spec.One boss has many small minions close to the boss? Change to sustained aoe talents. The versatility was amazing and made sure no class got left behind.

Hard pass. I hated talents in WoW and every required cookie cutter build. The illusion of choice is not a choice at all. No matter how much work devs put into balance these so called choices, there will always be one that is just better. Hardcore people will find the best "options" post them online and casuals will be like "Cool, I'll take this build and be awesome." Its the same story for every MMO, and like it or not, humans as a group are entirely predictable creatures.

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Originally Posted by DarkEiraStar

Hard pass. I hated talents in WoW and every required cookie cutter build. The illusion of choice is not a choice at all. No matter how much work devs put into balance these so called choices, there will always be one that is just better. Hardcore people will find the best "options" post them online and casuals will be like "Cool, I'll take this build and be awesome." Its the same story for every MMO, and like it or not, humans as a group are entirely predictable creatures.

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In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23 and https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/28
Here's a comparison between the two games. One has huge diversity in terms of top rankings in dps, while the other is literally all Black Mage. This is the difference between having versatility regarding talents and optimization vs none. It's not a illusion.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

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Did we even play the same game?

https://i.imgur.com/8kf7445.png

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Originally Posted by Xyr

In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23 and https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/28
Here's a comparison between the two games. One has huge diversity in terms of top rankings in dps, while the other is literally all Black Mage. This is the difference between having versatility regarding talents and optimization vs none. It's not a illusion.

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Did you even look at the logs you linked? If you looked closer at the talents of same classes literally almost all of their talents are the exact same. The mages are using the same talents, warriors using the same talents, druids using the same talents. There's only like 1 or 2 SINGLE talent differences, but the other 15 are exactly the same as everyone else. It's exactly an illusion of choice.

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Originally Posted by DarkEiraStar

Did we even play the same game?

https://i.imgur.com/8kf7445.png

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I don't know why you posted that, because it contradicts your point. According to your chart, you can pick 1 talent in each tier, which means a total of 7 talents in your chart. There's 4 ? talents which means viable depending on the situation, and 10 check marked talents which means optimal. 14 viable talents for 7 that's 14!/(7!(14-7)!) = 3432 combinations. Although, some choices are locked out as there are only a single choice for that tier so the total combinations is probably around 100, but I'm too lazy to look up the formula. However, even 10 choices is still better than 1.

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Originally Posted by ItsDevinHere

Did you even look at the logs you linked? If you looked closer at the talents of same classes literally almost all of their talents are the exact same. The mages are using the same talents, warriors using the same talents, druids using the same talents. There's only like 1 or 2 SINGLE talent differences, but the other 15 are exactly the same as everyone else. It's exactly an illusion of choice.

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Nope, they aren't using the same talents. Did you look at different bosses? The same class might be using the same talents for 1 boss, but they are using different talents for a different boss, hence choice, and not illusion either. Also, again, there's many more classes in the top ranking whereas FFXIV logs consists of Black mages only. That's a diversity ratio of 10-1.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

I don't know why you posted that, because it contradicts your point. According to your chart, you can pick 1 talent in each tier, which means a total of 7 talents in your chart. There's 4 ? talents which means viable depending on the situation, and 10 check marked talents which means optimal. 14 viable talents for 7 that's 14!/(7!(14-7)!) = 3432 combinations. Although, some choices are locked out as there are only a single choice for that tier so the total combinations is probably around 500, but I'm too lazy to look up the formula. However, 500 choices is still better than 1.

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1 choice in almost every tier that is considered "viable" while the rest are considered trash or only better in niche circumstances. That is the very definition of illusion of choice. And that is just for 1 spec on 1 class. Every single one of them is like that.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Nope, they aren't using the same talents. Did you look at different bosses? The same class might be using the same talents for 1 boss, but they are using different talents for a different boss, hence choice, and not illusion either. Also, again, there's many more classes in the top ranking whereas FFXIV logs consists of Black mages only. That's a diversity ratio of 10-1.

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Yes I did, and my point stands, the majority of the talents stay the same with only a few changing. Between different bosses it's like 2 or 3 talent changes, but then the next boss they go back to the previous used ones, so there's still only like 1 or 2 options for fights. I will concede to you that there's a small choice, but overall for the whole talent system it's an illusion of choice, the fact that the majority of the talents are set in stone is my point that it's an illusion of choice. What is even the point of having an option for those talents that never change if you never change them.

I will give it to you based on those logs Black Mage is always on top, but the other classes at least seem to be more diversified. Though I would rather take that then a useless talent system.

Considering how bad of a spot WoW is in lately I'd say anything from it should be lessons other developers learn from vs blindly implementing into their game that's not been balanced for it for nearly a decade. There's a reason we even have the WoW Refugee memes, the game is going downhill so maybe keep it's garbage out of FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by ItsDevinHere

Yes I did, and my point stands, the majority of the talents stay the same with only a few changing. Between different bosses it's like 2 or 3 talent changes, but then the next boss they go back to the previous used ones, so there's still only like 1 or 2 options for fights. I will concede to you that there's a small choice, but overall for the whole talent system it's an illusion of choice, the fact that the majority of the talents are set in stone is my point that it's an illusion of choice. What is even the point of having an option for those talents that never change if you never change them.

I will give it to you based on those logs Black Mage is always on top, but the other classes at least seem to be more diversified. Though I would rather take that then a useless talent system.

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It's not a useless system if it adds significant diversity to their roster. Again, 10-1 ratio on diversity. If you rather have Black Mage dominate every single boss than have a talent system. That's your choice, but for me, I rather have diversity than monopolization.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

Considering how bad of a spot WoW is in lately I'd say anything from it should be lessons other developers learn from vs blindly implementing into their game that's not been balanced for it for nearly a decade. There's a reason we even have the WoW Refugee memes, the game is going downhill so maybe keep it's garbage out of FFXIV?

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WoW has been going down hill because it's old. It's the natural course of progression. Games don't last forever. WoW's talent system existed since their classic, during the height of their game, each class had around 90 talents to pick 40-50 from. By your logic their "talent system" would be amazing and should be implemented if it was at the height of their game, while at the low of their game their talent system is terrible? The lack of consistency in your logic is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

WoW has been going down hill because it's old. It's the natural course of progression. Games don't last forever. WoW's talent system existed since their classic, during the height of their game, each class had around 90 talents to pick 40-50 from. By your logic their "talent system" would be amazing and should be implemented if it was at the height of their game, while at the low of their game their talent system is terrible? The lack of consistency in your logic is terrible.

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I'm saying as someone who's played since 1.0 on both games that WoW's talent system has always been a nightmare to balance resulting in many a period of "God Tier Talents' that broke gameplay balance or caused exploits. My point is it was a bad system at the start that only provided fluff and only got worse as time went on.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

I'm saying as someone who's played since 1.0 on both games that WoW's talent system has always been a nightmare to balance resulting in many a period of "God Tier Talents' that broke gameplay balance or caused exploits. My point is it was a bad system at the start that only provided fluff and only got worse as time went on.

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If you've been playing since 1.0 then you should know that FFXIV has never been balanced any better than WoW had. So, balancing or not was not because of talents. Even now, AGAIN, WoW has a diversity of top dps of 10 different classes versus only 1 in FFXIV that is the black mage. Your point is moot.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

If you've been playing since 1.0 then you should know that FFXIV has never been balanced any better than WoW had. So, balancing or not was not because of talents. Moot point.

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I never said it was about balance, I was saying WoW's Talent system is not good (providing an example why) so don't put it into FFXIV which hasn't had it and does not need it. I'm not glorifying FFXIV's balance and development as superior to WoW so if you can refrain from putting words in my mouth I'd appreciate it. You are so focused on deconstructing my statements I don't think you are actually reading them.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

It's not a useless system if it adds significant diversity to their roster. Again, 10-1 ratio on diversity. If you rather have Black Mage dominate every single boss than have a talent system. That's your choice, but for me, I rather have diversity than monopolization.

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This is off topic of the post but in regards to balance, keep in mind FFXIV and WoW balance their jobs/classes differently. You say theres a 10-1 ratio of diversity between the dominate specs but how many other specs are left in the dumpster because WoW can't balance their jobs accordingly, even after butchering the vast majority of class and spec identity and making the majority of jobs have a builder into spender rotation, essentially making gameplay overly homogenized.

Where as with FFXIV, the reason Blackmage (and Samurai but they need a buff at the moment) are at the top is because of how they balance their jobs. Jobs with little to no party buffs have more personal dps, where as jobs like Dancer and Ninja that offer more party dps have lower personal DPS. They have to balance BLM and SAM to have high personal DPS because they offer nothing to the raid group aside from Addle and Feint.

Where as for WoW, they have butchered so much of party/raid composition with buffs that party dps doesn't matter (and frankly has never mattered) in WoW. It's all about personal DPS.

If they were to add more party utility to BLM and SAM, I would see them drop their DPS to be more in line with the other jobs that offer party-wide utility, but that just isn't going to happen at the moment. Also executing BLM gameplay at a high level to be top DPS can be difficult, even with the new ShB changes.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

WoW has been going down hill because it's old. It's the natural course of progression. Games don't last forever. WoW's talent system existed since their classic, during the height of their game, each class had around 90 talents to pick 40-50 from. By your logic their "talent system" would be amazing and should be implemented if it was at the height of their game, while at the low of their game their talent system is terrible? The lack of consistency in ur logic is terrible.

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The talent tree was even more cookie cutter back then than it is now because you had to have so many points put into a single tree to get your final ability. Having played since Vanilla, every revision of WoWs talent tree has either been incredibly boring (see pre-MoP), to getting some talents that are legitimately game breaking or other talents that should have been in the core of the class but were ripped away into a talent that it became the only choice to take.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

I never said it was about balance, I was saying WoW's Talent system is not good (providing an example why) so don't put it into FFXIV which hasn't had it and does not need it. I'm not glorifying FFXIV's balance and development as superior to WoW so if you can refrain from putting words in my mouth I'd appreciate it. You are so focused on deconstructing my statements I don't think you are actually reading them.

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Except you are using balance as a excuse when FFXIV has way worse balance and is probably one of the worst balanced games in MMORPG history.

So far, your reasonings for saying the talent system is bad are:
Bad balance (moot because many games, including FFXIV has way worse balance and does not possess a talent system.)
WoW has not been doing good (moot because regardless of whether WoW was doing good or bad, it always had talents.)

Unless you can give another example or another reasoning as to why the talent system is bad and FFXIV shouldn't use it. I really don't see any valid points so far.

As for my points, I already stated numerous times:
Talents bring more diversity(statistically true)
Gives more choices( also true even if the number of choices are not high due to optimization)
Is more fun( personal preference)

A. Nowhere did I say this system should emulate WoW. WoW's classes are garbage right now. I posted a more specific version of what I imagine later in the thread, which is more like the old cross-class system but specific to each job.

B. Just because people will gravitate to the build that does 2% more DPS than the other one doesn't mean it's an "illusion of choice." Plenty of people will choose to play the job the way they prefer. Don't generalize.

C. What hardcore raiders do is entirely irrelevant to the average player of this game or any game.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

A. Nowhere did I say this system should emulate WoW. WoW's classes are garbage right now. I posted a more specific version of what I imagine later in the thread, which is more like the old cross-class system but specific to each job.

B. Just because people will gravitate to the build that does 2% more DPS than the other one doesn't mean it's an "illusion of choice." Plenty of people will choose to play the job the way they prefer. Don't generalize.

C. What hardcore raiders do is entirely irrelevant to the average player of this game or any game.

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A. While no you did not say it but most people will gravitate to what they are familiar with which is the talent system in WoW.

B. People always want to see bigger numbers/do more DPS. The most optimal talent choices will always been chosen unless for whatever reason another niche talent excels in a very minor situation (see ST talents vs AoE talents).

C. What hardcore raiders do is entirely relevant to the average player. Hardcore raiders set the meta, and while I absolutely abhor the meta personally, I understand its significance. I am by no means a hardcore raider myself, but I understand why average players and average groups would want to follow what hardcore raiders do because hardcore raiders are generally always the most optimized of the class/job and the peak of player performance. Why would an average player not want to try to emulate them?

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Originally Posted by Xyr

As for my points, I already stated numerous times:
Talents bring more diversity(statistically true)
Gives more choices( also true even if the number of choices are not high due to optimization)
Is more fun( personal preference)

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Diversity in WoW as a primary example is NEEDED because you only pick ONE class. FFXIV you can switch on the fly, so your per character diversity blows WoW's out the water. SE wants every class to play certain ways that's why we have the Job System vs a Talent System. That's the bottom line.

More Choices for game play are fine and dandy but at the end of the day there will always be choices that might as well not even exist. Similar to when they remove skills the game, Why make the devs waste their time adding something barely anyone will use? So you can look at all your buttons and think, "Man I have so many options awesome."

You are allowed the think WoW's Talent system is fun just as I think it is bad. You want to defend it's implementation but don't consider that the Dev team at SE have their core gameplay systems set as is.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

Diversity in WoW as a primary example is NEEDED because you only pick ONE class. FFXIV you can switch on the fly, so your per character diversity blows WoW's out the water. SE wants every class to play certain ways that's why we have the Job System vs a Talent System. That's the bottom line.

More Choices for game play are fine and dandy but at the end of the day there will always be choices that might as well not even exist. Similar to when they remove skills the game, Why make the devs waste their time adding something barely anyone will use? So you can look at all your buttons and think, "Man I have so many options awesome."

You are allowed the think WoW's Talent system is fun just as I think it is bad. You want to defend it's implementation but don't consider that the Dev team at SE have their core gameplay systems set as is.

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Except you have to re-level and gear every job you play, which makes it no different than any other game where you just level a different character and gear it.