Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

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Originally Posted by Selond3

I was thinking just spell speed(casting speed) and recast time

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well sorry to burst your bubble 10%-20% of spell speed ain't the huge compare to 10%-20% attack speed

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

well sorry to burst your bubble 10%-20% of spell speed ain't the huge compare to 10%-20% attack speed

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Given that Red Mage autos don't mean anything, their melee combo is fixed GCD recast, and everything else outside fleche and contra sixte are spells -

They're effectively the same.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Given that Red Mage autos do mean anything

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they do since your going into melee range for melee combos

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

they do since your going into melee range for melee combos

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Let me know how that 60 auto attack stacks up when your damage totals over a fight will be in the millions.

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

well sorry to burst your bubble 10%-20% of spell speed ain't the huge compare to 10%-20% attack speed

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Fine then a 20~30% attack speed boost

[QUOTE=Kabooa;4887521]ok now we take out those 60 autos. :d :p/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Syphin_Polaris

I would actually be entirely in favor of this because I got tired of being a rez mule. Sure I love being able to be supportive, mana shift, combat raise (which is a reason i loved smn too), and I've been wanting rdm since I started playing FFXIV because it was a job I loved from previous games.

I don't main RDM anymore, not because of boredom or dislike, because I simply love rdm through and through, I simply went back to ninja main as I've been since it was a thing and RDM is my next up. I was sick of being told repeatedly that I was only there for easy and fast rezing for the healers so "they could focus on DPS and healing" ...meanwhile as the DPS I would be worthless at 0 MP... it got frustrating.

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Well, to be honest, that's... kind of the point. Our primary utility is lessening a healer's job, because we're designed to be a hybrid class.
And so long as our impotent on-GCD heal ain't giving us a damage buff in return, rezzing is the only tangible part of that hybridization with any value to a raid composition.

Presently a big part of the reasoning behind such a mentality is that, because the value of our utility is so high, our damage has been reduced to compensate; the exact flip of a BLM. You could attack our utility, but then not only would our healing abilities basically just be flavor, we'll still just be inferior DPS to a BLM so long as they're designed to have no utility of their own.
The real question becomes "How will we fare compared to SMN," and given their innate complexity, it wouldn't surprise me if the answer is "Not well on parses."

So maybe you're getting told "You're just here to rez people" now, but the alternative is being told "Swap to a better DPS job or we're kicking you."
That's just how competitive raid environments work -- no min-maxer likes a hybrid unless they do something someone else can't, which makes them functionally not a hybrid (just a separate role altogether).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Well, to be honest, that's... kind of the point. Our primary utility is lessening a healer's job, because we're designed to be a hybrid class.

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In a game like FFXIV, healer-support is a very limited utility. I'd like to see healer support reduced somewhat (that's why I suggested overexertion--it still allows for 2 raises every minute via swiftcast and dualcast but it takes away their always-on-demand-instant-chain-raise capacity) and their damage support increased somewhat.

After Heavensward, I'm forever disillusioned to any kind of "healer support" or "healer specialist" job. Paladin suffered in 3.x because of it, and White Mage has been suffering the entirety of 3.x-4.x because of it.

Unless, of course, healing is drastically weakened or changed in some way for 5.x, in which case we'll have to see how that pans out.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

After Heavensward, I'm forever disillusioned to any kind of "healer support" or "healer specialist" job. Paladin suffered in 3.x because of it, and White Mage has been suffering the entirety of 3.x-4.x because of it.

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That... sounds like you just have a problem with being a healer, to be honest?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

That... sounds like you just have a problem with being a healer, to be honest?

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I mean, firstly I certainly don't undertake dps queues to play subhealer.

Even if you weren't around for Heavensward where Paladin was the "healer / support tank," you can look at White Mage right now and see how, because the way the game works, that it "heals harder" than the other healers isn't really an advantage. The endgame revolves around finding the minimal amount of healing / mitigation required and working as close to that line as possible in order to maximize damage.

VerCure is a spell that is used either for solo content, or for Dual casting when a boss becomes untargetable. Nothing else really.
In optimized gameplay, you won't sacrifice a DPS GCD for a weak heal outside of horrible emergency. We should not get too much on the "hybrid" nature of RDM, it has been sacrificed and now RDM is a pure DPS job. The opportunities of DPS or buffing actions traded in 70-80 for unbalanced healing in the sake of hybrid would kill the job for me.
Unless the game changes fundamentally, two healers (and a few oGCD abilityes like Mantra, Second Wind, Mana Ward) are more than enough to cope with the raid damage.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Unless the game changes fundamentally, two healers (and a few oGCD abilityes like Mantra, Second Wind, Mana Ward) are more than enough to cope with the raid damage.

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This is a pretty good summation of what I was trying to get across earlier, thank you :)

Yeah, healing on RDM will always be imbalanced.

Either, it's too weak to really be notable, so you'll still run with 2x Healers which will be able to handle everything the game throws at them (Otherwise content is being balanced around RDM being mandatory) leaving it so that RDM's healing skills are just useless. Just like it currently is.

Or, RDM's healing is so powerful that it becomes possible to replace a Healer with a RDM and thus the meta becomes that as RDM would push out more DPS than a healer even with dropping GCD's on the occasional heal.

As such, if you want to entertain the idea of fulfilling the fantasy of White Magic on RDM, it would need to be in the form of non-healing based utility. That isn't to say they cannot have heal skills, just that the balance around their utility must come from something other than healing. For example, if they had something like a form of Aurorastorm as a CD that provided SkS and a HoT in its area, it would be primarily used for the SkS buff but would also still be a healing skill.

RDMs heal is a self sustain, like Second Wind, and that's all it needs to be.

But it could be useful if it contributed to DPS given it's a GCD with a cast time.

So perhaps it shoukd generate white mana.
Then if we balance that with a new black magic utility spell that generates black mana...

Well, there's a couple ideas I can see on BLM's end that could be shifted to RDM as part of their hybrid nature.

Verum Oratio (Enochian): Grants the RDM a SpS buff that stacks up to 5 times as they cycle through Verfinishers, probably capping out at 10% or so. (Gain 1 stack each time you use a Verfinisher, 45s duration)

Aetheric Reversal (Transpose): Swaps your White and Black mana totals, on something like a 60s cooldown.

Either or both of these might be terrible ideas, but they're the best I could come up with for how to incorporate more Black Magicks into RDM. Thoughts?

My wishlist :
I think RDM has a good enough amount of skills, and more would just bloat the UI so instead of properly adding new button to push, I rather add new functionnality to existing skills so we keep the same number of skills but with more things to press and more options.

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lv72 [Trait] Improved Dual Cast
Dual Cast also reduce the recast time of your next spell by 0.7s (down to 1.8s)

lv74 [Trait] Improved Acceleration
Acceleration also double the mana generation of VerAero and VerThunder to 16 and Impact to 8/8. While under the effect of Acceleration, Ver-Cure becomes Ver-Medica.
Acceleration Recharge is now 20s.


lv76 [Spell] Ver-Blizzard/Water
Grant access to Ver-Blizzard or Ver-Water depending on which Mana is currently the lowest. If both mana have equal value, a random spell is activated.

lv78 [Trait]Vermillion Art&Style
Excecuting Enchanted Redoublement grants Vermillion Art, increasing the critical hit chance of your next spell to 100%.
Executing Enchanted Moulinet grants Vermillion Style - Last 60s (3 stack max).
Having two stack of Vermillion Style changes VerHoly and VerFlare to Vermillion Blade

lv80 [Spell] Vermillion Splendor
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 850.
Additional Effect: Increases Black and White Mana by 15
Additional Effect: 20% chance of becoming Impact Ready
Duration: 30s
When under the effect of Vermillion Attunement, both Ver-Holy and Ver-Flare become Vermillion Splendor.
Can only be executed after landing Enchanted Redoublement.
Consumes White Attunement, Black Attunement and Vermillion Attunement.


New Spell description

[Spell] Ver-Blizzard - Instant
Deals Ice damage with a potency of 210.
Additional Effect: Increases White Mana by 4 and proc Dual Cast
[Spell] Ver-Water - Instant
Deals Water damage with a potency of 210.
Additional Effect: Increases White Mana by 4 and proc Dual Cast

Vermillion Blade
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 450.
Duration: 30s

VerMedica - Instant
Restores own HP and the HP of all nearby party members.
Cure Potency: 200

Old Spell Change (lv 80)

VerHoly
Now grants "White Attunement". If Black Attunement was up, also grant Vermillion Attunement.
White Attunement grants a 2 White Mana every 3s unless the Balance Gauge has too much white mana. Last 60s.
Also restore 10% max mp


VerFlare
Now grants "Black Attunement". If White Attunement was up, also grant Vermillion Attunement.
Black Attunement grants a 2 Black Mana every 3s unless the Balance Gauge has too much black mana. Last 60s.
Also restore 10% max mp

Scatter [change]
Additional Effect: Based on your current highest Mana, you have a chance to be granted Enhanced Scatter. (100% for 0mana, 50% for 50mana, 25% for 75mana)
Duration: 10s


Thought behind the new spells
First, only one new button has been added, VerWater/Freeze. This ensures ShB RDM doesn't have any Skillbloat issue. All the new functionnality are traits enhancing the current set.

To me, RDM is all about keeping the balance between B&W mana. I've always concidered
the RDM to be the fast paced BLM. While BLM has to stand still (as much as possible) casting long and powerful spells, RDM would have shorter cast and good mobility.
To "some" extent this is the case, but as many people have noticed, this delay after casting VerAero/Thunder kind of kills it, we basically spend half our gcd waiting to be able to cast the next spell. This is where Improved DualCast comes into play.
The goal is to make RDM gameplay faster, exploit its simplicty to allow a more nervous and fast paced rotation.
I am very aware that a recharge cast of 1.8s (minus spellspeed) could create some clipping issues with too much SpellSpeed, but since they're already avoiding it, 1.8s should be enough to weave 1 ogcd (not dual weave tho)

I wanted to make Acceleration more interesting. It is (imo) a very boring spell with very little to zero thought required behind its use. You press it on CD and use it on wathever the spell you don't have the proc yet. its impact is also limited has it only has 50% chance to granting you the proc (since the other 50% would be you procing it anyway).
The new acceleration also has an important play with the whole Black and Mana attunement helping the player restoring the slowly, but steady, imbalance created by the buff. Regarding VerMedica, I wanted to add another support skill (that we would avoid anyway) but not at the cost of an actual new trait/spell.
Ver-Medica would be a powerful assisting tool but gated behind a 20s CD while would, on top of it, cost a buffed VerThunder/Aero.
Definitely not something people would abuse, but always handy if the need arises.

VerBlizzard/Water is here to answer a few issues the new RDM will have.
First, because of the new Improved Dualcast, RDM mobility would be severely impaired.
VerBlizz/Water is basically RDM Ruin2, it's instant, procs DualCast so you can still keep up your rotation. And can be use for Dualweaving. But due to its slightly lower potency and mana generation, you simply don't spam it.

I thought of making it two spells but after some thought I really didn't see the point. It would bloat the UI with one extra skill for no reason. But that's still something that could be done without any issue.

Vermillion Art&Style is here to solve the RDM AoE issue and give some oomph to our combo finisher. Many people proposed to use Ver-Flood/Freeze for AoE, but I don't think it is such a great idea anymore. I rather have most skill working for our Single Target rotation. With this, using two Enchanted Moulinet would grant a strong AoE finisher. With a duration of 60s people should be able to keep the stack between pulls during dungeon and steadily unleash a good burst. The basic rotation is still Scatter spam altough the rework on Scatter should help.

Finally Vermillion Splendor is here to work as the new central gameplay of the RDM.
Not only did we have to keep our mana balanced, now we'll have to balance both our use of Ver-Flare and Ver-Holy. However just this wouldn't make the whole rotation quiet new and wouldn't exploit some of our new tools to their full extent, such as Improved Acceleration. White and Black Attunement serve this purpose. By Attuning to a specific element it changes, slightly, the way you handle your rotation.
Basically you have to be more careful with your mana generation.

I've also seen many people wishing for some passive mana generation (through the use of a DoT usually) so there you go.

As a reward, we get a new more powerful finisher following the whole RDM theme. A finisher both white and black, a red finisher!


In the end not much would change for the RDM as I concider the job isn't lacking anything in particular beside a bit more exciting AoE.

The new rotation would be essentially the same but faster, you raise both mana equally, finish with V-Holy or V-Flare, do the same again with the other one and finish with a "Ver Redboom". If you need to cast while moving you now have access to verblizz/water.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I mean, firstly I certainly don't undertake dps queues to play subhealer.

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Then why pick the class that's historically half Black Mage and half White Mage...?

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

Verum Oratio (Enochian): Grants the RDM a SpS buff that stacks up to 5 times as they cycle through Verfinishers, probably capping out at 10% or so. (Gain 1 stack each time you use a Verfinisher, 45s duration)

Aetheric Reversal (Transpose): Swaps your White and Black mana totals, on something like a 60s cooldown.

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Not thrilled about Verum Oratio, partly since Spell Speed isn't of huge value to us and partly because that's an awfully roundabout way to give us Enochian, which I for one jumped to RDM to avoid.

I'm kind of wondering what the practical function of Aetheric Reversal would be, since both Verholy and Verflare are presently identical just with different totals. I suppose maybe if you have a Verfire/Verstone proc of the wrong mana type, but even then a 60 second CD is a bit much and we have plenty of other control tools...

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

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I like the idea of upgrading Vercure to affect the party (or at least targets around your target), but... I have a few concerns.

1) If Verblizzard and Verwater both deal the same damage as Jolt II and have a faster cast time, what's to stop them from simply replacing Jolt II so you can spam instants? Combined with Improved Dualcast and uninterrupted movement, it's easy to see that as being a total throughput upgrade.
2) Why change both Verholy and Verflare into Vermilion Blade, rather than Enchanted Moulinet? Why allow Vermilion Style to stack to 3 if the effect only requires 2 stacks? Is Vermilion Blade intended to be an AoE? The description just says it does heavy damage.
3) Wouldn't Improved Acceleration encourage holding Acceleration's buff to get more mileage from Impact? Would it be consumed by Vermedica?
4) Is it intended for the change to Enhanced Scatter to encourage players to hit Enchanted Moulinet as soon as it comes up to keep below 50 MP?
5) If your overall concern is button bloat, why not advocate for the compression of existing skills, like our melee combo or proc-exclusive spells (a la PVP)?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Then why pick the class that's historically half Black Mage and half White Mage...?

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Because it's the closest we currently and probably will ever have to a dps that fits the spellblade archetype. Regardless if I wanted to play a healer I'd play a healer.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yeah, healing on RDM will always be imbalanced.

Either, it's too weak to really be notable, so you'll still run with 2x Healers which will be able to handle everything the game throws at them (Otherwise content is being balanced around RDM being mandatory) leaving it so that RDM's healing skills are just useless. Just like it currently is.

Or, RDM's healing is so powerful that it becomes possible to replace a Healer with a RDM and thus the meta becomes that as RDM would push out more DPS than a healer even with dropping GCD's on the occasional heal.

As such, if you want to entertain the idea of fulfilling the fantasy of White Magic on RDM, it would need to be in the form of non-healing based utility. That isn't to say they cannot have heal skills, just that the balance around their utility must come from something other than healing. For example, if they had something like a form of Aurorastorm as a CD that provided SkS and a HoT in its area, it would be primarily used for the SkS buff but would also still be a healing skill.

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Not necessarily. You're thinking in the binary sense of comparison to a healer.

In past FFs, where Red Mages shined was in the areas they could do things other classes couldn't, becoming a subcategory of their own.

Consider this, for instance:

Vercure now heals all allies within 5y of the target. For every ally that receives healing (not overhealing), the potency of your next spell increases by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Can consume Acceleration to automatically generate 5 stacks.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Not necessarily. You're thinking in the binary sense of comparison to a healer.

In past FFs, where Red Mages shined was in the areas they could do things other classes couldn't, becoming a subcategory of their own.

Consider this, for instance:

Vercure now heals all allies within 5y of the target. For every ally that receives healing (not overhealing), the potency of your next spell increases by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Can consume Acceleration to automatically generate 5 stacks.

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But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

Also to add to Kalise's post.

The problem is in past FF titles it didn't really matter what a job had available or how they were balanced as it wouldn't effect any other players (except XI). XIV is built around a trinity system and although we do have some hybrid jobs, they will always be intended to fit one of the three roles we have in-game. A RDM healing the party is not doing damage regardless of whether they get a damage buff from it, and if they need to heal so much then the question is what is/are the actual healer(s) doing. Even if something required way more healing than usual, the game would balance it so that the healer(s) are more than capable because there is no guarantee a RDM would be present, nor would they want to make one job a must pick to clear it, all DPS must be viable in the majority of content (players may have job preferences for Savage/Ultimate raids however).

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

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Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

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But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

If rdm is to get any more Healing utility, unless it’s a heal gcd that tops the entire party in one cast. It needs to be an Ogcd to warrant using. The only thing I’d dare give them is a Regen akin to Medica 2 or whispering dawn. Give it a lengthy cooldown between 90 to 180 secs. This way, it doesn’t cost them any dps, while still keeping their roots in WHM viable. Rdm doesn’t need Meta utility to compete for speeds, it just needs to do damage relative to BLM and SMN and excel beyond them in progression. Rdm damage compared to the both of them atm is pretty good. Let’s pray 5.0 doesn’t ruin it

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

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It depends on the utility given, Healers are already so strong that any of them could Solo heal if mana allowed it. Both Ultimates have been solo healed at this given point in time. Rdm getting heal utility won’t really add to this anymore unless it’s significant. The problem is, that if rdm has to pay for its healer utility, it’s wasted utility that the job has to pay for in damage and identity. This means the job is in a position where it needs to get this kind of utility with it being basically tax free as dps with healing abilities don’t have much value. The fact that Vercure has less value than Nature’s Minne should tell you how strong healer kits are currently

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

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I think you need to understand that the only hybrid nature in FFXIV's red mage is the use of White and Black magic BUT it's still DPS. As Kalise said, the Trinity will never allow cross-role abilities to a significant level. Like Ninja has agro manipulation tools, yet it's not a tanking job nor will ever be.

If as you said you save resource for a healer to DPS, their DPS is still lower than what you sacrificed with a VerCure / VerMedica or else. Even if it would bring some DPS up for RDM in a way (generating Mana, or any buff), then you need to rework the whole 3 (potentially 4) healer balance: I don't see it happening for obvious practical reasons.

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity. :)

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

My wishlist :

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On improved Dualcast : then you need to revise all potencies. Because RDM has high raw potencies on each spell. Sneaking more spells thanks to a 1.8GCD would make it OP...
Otherwise, I guess you ideas are fine. Now the "one VerHoly, one VerFlare then Vermillion Splendor" feels a bit too simple and long. I'd rather see your Splendor back to back to the second Ver-finisher, with a reduced potency.
Guarenteed crit after Redoublement is OP. I'd rather have something to even the gaps in RDM damage imput. Namely, have a way to make Jolt II stronger in the case of no proc once you have used all your proc-fishing tools. Maybe a trait called "Hopelessness" once you have used Swiftcast and Accceleration is on cooldown ;D

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Originally Posted by Mansion

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity. :)

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Very well!

Personally I'm not too too concerned about the state of RDM's single-target rotation, as we have plenty of tools to be reactive to and a four-ability combo to finish it is already pretty long in my opinion. The first priority should be increasing the speed at which we access our melee abilities, especially with all of these suggestions to load even more of our DPS into (or gate it behind) our Verfinishers. (Anybody got an average on how long it takes to reach a Verfinisher without Manafication? Because it feels like I only get 2-3 in before it comes back...)

It's a fairly low priority, I think, to give us more instant casts or mobility tools -- Dualcast and Swiftcast are kind of plenty in that regard, and BLM needs mobility tools way more than us.

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

After that, personal survivability -- Vercure's useless if we can't survive the hit in the first place, and we have a rather perilous melee phase that can screw us over with bad luck or bad timing. There's honestly a spectacular variety of ways to execute this that could be perfectly within our identity: modify any protective spell from WHM or the shared Healer actions into a personal cooldown, or some variation of Manaward from BLM to contrast the two utilities we already have from WHM, perhaps some type of fencing-style defense or sword magic...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

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Fully with you on this one. RDM being the only caster without a MP regen in its kit / rotation, it leaves us with a dangerous Lucid Dreaming addiction :
Being KO'ed while Lucid is on cooldown,
High threat (because of Tank death or else) and Lucid is on cooldown
Using Lucid to help with raises, effectively patching for this mana loss, but not for your DPS rotation just after that.

I suggested that our un-enchanted melee combo should give us a nice chunk of mana back. I think it would be the easiest way, let's say one third of our mana pool in three actions (remember that they have a lower potency and don't trigger the 1.5 GCD).
So giving one or two full un-enchanted combo after a raise / death would be still a DPS loss, but it would make sure we can resume our DPS safely.

Like I said yesterday...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

RDMs heal is a self sustain, like Second Wind, and that's all it needs to be.

But it could be useful if it contributed to DPS given it's a GCD with a cast time.

So perhaps it should generate white mana.
Then if we balance that with a new black magic utility spell that generates black mana...

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Vercure additional trait: If you recover HP with Vercure (i.e. the target isn't already at full HP) then you generate 5 white mana.
Plus 'Verward': Receive 20% less damage from the next hit you receive, if that damage is magic damage, you gain 5 black mana.

Throw in a 'Verfreeze': Deals 350 potency damage to all enemies in range and inflicts bind. Upon using Verfreeze, you gain 8 mana towards whichever is the lowest.
Along with an Enchanted Moulinet trait: 30% chance of proc'ing Verfreeze.

And I think that's all RDM needs. Plus, it now has an even number of black and white inspired Ver spells.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Vercure additional trait: If you recover HP with Vercure (i.e. the target isn't already at full HP) then you generate 5 white mana.
Plus 'Verward': Receive 20% less damage from the next hit you receive, if that damage is magic damage, you gain 5 black mana.

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Still not nearly interesting enough to use it over VerStone or VerFire, or even Impact. 5 mana is too low for a DPS GCD loss.
Wasn't it you suggesting a Regen that would tick White mana? This could work if it was an offGCD ability.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Still not nearly interesting enough to use it over VerStone or VerFire, or even Impact. 5 mana is too low for a DPS GCD loss.

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The mana gain isn't meant to replace your core DPS rotation, it's compensation for having to break it. It would still be an emergency skill, you're not playing healer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The mana gain isn't meant to replace your core DPS rotation, it's compensation for having to break it. It would still be an emergency skill, you're not playing healer.

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Yeah but I really don't see the point. In an Ext or Savage fight, I have don't think I have ever used VerCure outside of dual cast proc during a phase transition.
Because VerCure is now around 10 to 12K heal, it makes no difference whatsoever. In theory, it could save a tank from a coming auto-attack if their health pool is too low for whatever reason. Yet, as a DPS I can't say I watch over tanks' health. And if I did happen to see the critical situation, I still need a bit of time for reaction and casting, where I guess a healer would have done something by then. Or the tank died :D

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Yeah but I really don't see the point. In an Ext or Savage fight, I have don't think I have ever used VerCure outside of dual cast proc during a phase transition.
Because VerCure is now around 10 to 12K heal, it makes no difference whatsoever. In theory, it could save a tank from a coming auto-attack if their health pool is too low for whatever reason. Yet, as a DPS I can't say I watch over tanks' health. And if I did happen to see the critical situation, I still need a bit of time for reaction and casting, where I guess a healer would have done something by then. Or the tank died :D

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…so?
Not everything is based on savage raids.

Vercure and Verraise are both unecessary outside of prog, and AoE combos in general are pointless in pretty much all raids.
It can still be useful, either outside of raids or in prog, so why should we put up with the DPS loss it entails?

This is about comparing Vercure to its equivalents as a self-sustain heal.
Second Wind is an instant oGCD, so it doesn’t impact DPS at all.
Vercure might be spammable, but it’s a big DPS loss, you lose a GCD and the gauge you would have gained, plus it costs MP.
Gaining gauge is the only way to compensate for this without making it too convenient (instacast/no mp cost/oGCD, etc) but at the same time, it can’t generate more gauge than you would gain with a DPS skill. As Jolt gives you 6 net mana, 3 of each colour, that’s the limit.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

…so?
Not everything is based on savage raids.

Vercure and Verraise are both unecessary outside of prog, and AoE combos in general are pointless in pretty much all raids.
It can still be useful, either outside of raids or in prog, so why should we put up with the DPS loss it entails?

This is about comparing Vercure to its equivalents as a self-sustain heal.
Second Wind is an instant oGCD, so it doesn’t impact DPS at all.
Vercure might be spammable, but it’s a big DPS loss, you lose a GCD and the gauge you would have gained, plus it costs MP.
Gaining gauge is the only way to compensate for this without making it too convenient (instacast/no mp cost/oGCD, etc) but at the same time, it can’t generate more gauge than you would gain with a DPS skill. As Jolt gives you 6 net mana, 3 of each colour, that’s the limit.

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I should say that vercure is balanced as well as possible, while it’s true it sets you back in dps in potency and mana gained. That’s because its an On demand, low mp cost Heal that can not only save you but, someone else. Compared to 2nd wind where this skill heals you once and you’ve gotta hope you survive what ever damage is going out. Vercure is good as it is and doesn’t need to be touched.

I do think that the trait where Vercure increases the damage of your next spell is a good idea and encourages RDM's best practices (using Vercure to proc Dualcast while the boss is jumping). Plus it'd be some fun flavor, tying into the whole "arcane accelerator" fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

I do think that the trait where Vercure increases the damage of your next spell is a good idea and encourages RDM's best practices (using Vercure to proc Dualcast while the boss is jumping). Plus it'd be some fun flavor, tying into the whole "arcane accelerator" fantasy.

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That and I think it could be an interesting experiment to expand off that and make it give the bonus to your target instead of you.

So you can still self-heal and gain the potency, but you can use it to charge up an ally who's about to die otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I suggested that our un-enchanted melee combo should give us a nice chunk of mana back. I think it would be the easiest way, let's say one third of our mana pool in three actions (remember that they have a lower potency and don't trigger the 1.5 GCD).
So giving one or two full un-enchanted combo after a raise / death would be still a DPS loss, but it would make sure we can resume our DPS safely.

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I think my main concern with this is that while the option's there for us to use, it encourages bad practices for RDMs and doesn't give us that level of sustainability in our primary rotation.
Not to mention that a third of our mana pool per use means very fast recovery from Verraise, which I think defeats the purpose of making rez-spam so expensive for us. The pendulum would swing straight from "crippling addiction to LD" to "never needing to touch LD just like BLM", and giving up DPS for recovery means squat when the alternative is having zero resources to DPS.

It seems more balanced to me, and more fitting I think, for us to gain some type of boost to our natural MP regen, or a weak Refresh state we can keep up at all times. Enough so we recover MP faster than our main rotation spends it, but still require time to recover from Verraise spam.

Pretty quick test shows it takes us about ~13 seconds to recover 1200 MP while in combat at 70 (14400 max); we spend on average 840 MP every 4.5-ish seconds before SpS; napkin math says 4.5 sec is around 415 MP recovered, so under current conditions we just need to double our natural regen to make the rotation sustainable -- about 2% Refresh.
This is of course assuming our melee combo doesn't gain an MP cost in Shadowbringers, and without taking into account how SpS may increase our need. However, given that DoT and HoT effects are affected by SpS anyway, connecting future regen to that instead of base MP regeneration would take the anxiety away from that.

Hence my prior suggestion of Verfreeze.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I think my main concern with this is that while the option's there for us to use, it encourages bad practices for RDMs

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Well so does VerCure actually. Playing healer in most roulettes / raids, I see a lot of RDM using VerCure when they technically should not.
Now, reading your post does make it clear about the numbers, I did not give it too much thoughts. The idea is just that when you are out of mana with no recovery solutions, well your Melee combo is the only thing left, and it still has a decent DPS output (still more than VerCure ;D) as it scales on INT.
A small refresh additional effect on something, coupled with Lucid Dreaming would be okay


Seraphor, I think we don't agree. I belive almost everything is designed with an end-game mindset when it comes to job kits, with a few exceptions here and there for CC / solo content that do not come in calculation. AOE is basic for most jobs and I don't get the point of going extensively in that direction when it's only used in dungeons, when it's content that does not need any particular skill or effort.
Now if ShB makes dungeons actually challenging (and the overall game a bit harder), then I'm up for discussion on this topic. Right now, I don't see the point.

I think it's a waste of a Trait/Action slot to add an AOE finisher in the 70-80 levels. If it's an earlier level change, then it's fine (Tether could be reworked as Tri-Bind was for SMN and it did change its AOE rotation)