Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Fyce seems to just be a troll. That or they are truly unable to grasp logic. Either way I've basically ignored them on all these threads of late.

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Oh, I have over a month ago, the only person I've ignored on here. Nothing constructive comes out of interacting with this person.

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Originally Posted by 24spencer

you can play semantics about the 1 or 2 spells that technically come from low level dungeons all you want, but it's pretty obvious to anyone that the comment was referring to the level 50 dungeons. don't be facetious.

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I'm sorry but the OP is pretty clear, and goes as far as giving detailed figures:

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24 out of 49 spells are locked behind dungeons/trials. There is no way or extremely hard to solo them.

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They refer explicitely to every skill learned in dungeons and trials. Not exclusively Lv.50 dungeons. And, by the way, there are some Lv.50 dungeons that you can solo to get a skill.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why must you wait until you’re level 50, though? Why couldn’t you have the broken ability to solo Tam-Tara at level? What’s the point of doing it solo at level 50 when you could just go in at level 16 with a level 70 and steamroll? That’s my thought-process on it, anyways.

And this doesn’t even address having to get the skills locked behind the level 50 dungeons, the ARR Extremes, Coil, and Hildebrand’s Trials.

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Well, people argue that they can't do that stuff solo, but I'm ready to prove them wrong for a good number of instances (not all, obviously).
If now you want to add the condition of being able to solo everything needed to learn skills at the same level as the content you are trying to do, you can, but I cannot help you in that case, as you are asking for something quite different.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

No thanks, I'll just have my much more useful level 70 friend one shot the mobs with their basic GCD skill that takes absolutely no effort while I hang in the back and spam some fish.

Works like a charm.

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Oh, if that's what you want to do, then go for it!

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

Oh, I have over a month ago, the only person I've ignored on here. Nothing constructive comes out of interacting with this person.

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Sorry that I hurt you with facts :(
I just want people to use good arguments. If I can disprove them with objective statements, then they aren't good arguments.

Edit for the sake of clarity: I already explained why I was doing that. If you don't use good arguments, if you are using easily refutable stuff or even inaccuracies, then you will never get what you want from SE. If you think that actually trying to get people to understand how to argue better in order to get what they want is "trolling" or "white knighting", then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Regarding the current subject: it is factually true to say that a lot of skills can be acquired solo. Even a lot of the ones in dungeons/trials/raid. If you complain that "we can't easily get 25 skills from dungeons/trials!", SE can simply say "oh, just go get them somewhere else or use the undersized party option to do them at level 50!"
Square Enix is like these bad genies. As soon as you wish for something, they will try to find the flaws in what you said to either deliver something you didn't actually wished for, or simply not deliver at all while throwing a few dissapointing sentences in the next liveletter.

If I argue so hard against bad arguments, it's to get good arguments that SE can't bruff off easily. If you think that's qualifies as trolling, then keep what you're doing. We'll see who was right when SE will answer. If they ever do.

Edit2: "Thanks" to Deceptus, I was able to see that quote:

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Originally Posted by Zephera

Haha, you said you put me on your ignore list back in that other thread. Did I hurt you with facts back there?

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No, I blacklisted you because you had no respect for my time, I already told you. The only way to hurt people with facts is to contradict some of their precious subjective opinions. Unfortunatly for you, I almost never state my personal opinion. I mostly argue with objective statements, proofs, and facts. You will never hurt me with facts, they are the very tool I use to argue.

Others: "28 skills cannot be obtained by playing solo! But SE said it was a solo job!"
Me: "Actually, you can learn a lot of "dungeon spells while playing solo. And SE also mentionned party play with BLU."
Others: "OMG! You are such a troll! White knight! Condescending prick!"
This is basically what most "debate" I have boil down to. You might understand why I do blacklist some people. Including you.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Sorry that I hurt you with facts :(
I just want people to use good arguments. If I can disprove them with objective statements, then they aren't good arguments.

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Haha, you said you put me on your ignore list back in that other thread. Did I hurt you with facts back there?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If I argue so hard against bad arguments, it's to get good arguments that SE can't bruff off easily. If you think that's qualifies as trolling, then keep what you're doing. We'll see who was right when SE will answer. If they ever do.

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SE will respond to quantity of complaints, not quality of the complaints. This is true for any company, you can easily brush off a single well written complaint because it's only one person who cares., But you can't brush off several hundred poorly written ones, they're just much more visible.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

Haha, you said you put me on your ignore list back in that other thread. Did I hurt you with facts back there?

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Today I learned you can ignore posters.

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Originally Posted by 24spencer

130 potency mage
too overpowered for normal play by the way

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Doing 90 damage per cast in Haukke almost broke the servers.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, people argue that they can't do that stuff solo, but I'm ready to prove them wrong for a good number of instances (not all, obviously).
If now you want to add the condition of being able to solo everything needed to learn skills at the same level as the content you are trying to do, you can, but I cannot help you in that case, as you are asking for something quite different.

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This is exactly my point. BLU was advertised as a solo job (one that is so “powerful” and “broken” that it cannot participate in “normal duties” like the other 15 combat jobs). So, why is it that, in order to get the abilities locked behind duties, that I have to either group up with 3~7 other BLUs to do the content at level (with some limping depending on each BLU’s personal skill) or do the content with a level 70 unsynced? It seems that the developers intended parties of BLUs for things like the Extreme trial skills (I believe Shiva’s you can only get from her EX, not from her HM like you can Mountain Buster, to give an example), but that inherently defeats their “solo job” argument. Why can’t I solo everything at an appropriate level? Doing Tam-Tara at level 50 is the equivalent of just unsyncing it at 70 — you’re just 20 levels lower, but you’ll still more or less steamroll it. Doesn’t really fit into my personal idea of “solo job” (or “overpowered”/“broken”, unless we mean “broken” in the opposite direction), to be frank.
Same with how BLU cannot do primarily solo content, like utilize their Squadrons or even do MSQ (there are the 2.x MSQ after “The Ultimate Weapon”). It’s yet to be seen if they’ll be able to do HW MSQ (when raised to level 60) or SB MSQ (when eventually raised to 70), as well as other content just as PotD or HoH. They can’t even do Hall of Novice. But that’s a different argument that I addressed previously.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Blue Mage Is too Overpowered: This job is more like a Red Mage. Jack of All Trades and master of none. It doesn't do anything better than any individual job role.

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Color me surprised, that's what we ve been saying even before blu was released.

Lol i did just 160+ ramuh runs, thanks, ill continue after a nerf. I dont have THIS much time to waste.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is exactly my point. BLU was advertised as a solo job (one that is so “powerful” and “broken” that it cannot participate in “normal duties” like the other 15 combat jobs). So, why is it that, in order to get the abilities locked behind duties, that I have to either group up with 3~7 other BLUs to do the content at level (with some limping depending on each BLU’s personal skill) or do the content with a level 70 unsynced? It seems that the developers intended parties of BLUs for things like the Extreme trial skills (I believe Shiva’s you can only get from her EX, not from her HM like you can Mountain Buster, to give an example), but that inherently defeats their “solo job” argument. Why can’t I solo everything at an appropriate level? Doing Tam-Tara at level 50 is the equivalent of just unsyncing it at 70 — you’re just 20 levels lower, but you’ll still more or less steamroll it. Doesn’t really fit into my personal idea of “solo job” (or “overpowered”/“broken”, unless we mean “broken” in the opposite direction), to be frank.

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Well, first, it was "advertised" as "designed for solo play", not "able to solo all content while being level synced'" which is what you're asking for. Most things that BLU has to offer is doable solo. The only things that's not doable solo (yet, I bet a Lv.70 BLU will be able to do these things solo) are: getting the six 5* primal spells, as well as 8 specific other skills. And that's about it. And yes, it implies using the unsync option.
Besides, SE also released promotional materials of Blue Mages playing together and spoke about party play, implying that Blue Mage wasn't all about solo play.

Whatever the case, and no matter how you argue against it, being able to solo Tam Tara at level 50 is still... being able to solo it. You don't need a party, you don't need a Lv.70 friend. You can just go solo.
What you argue is that it can't do it solo while being level sync'ed. And I agree with you here, it can't. Never said it could.

Now, whether or not it should be able to solo all content while being level sync'ed is another story, because that would required having a toolkit which basically erase any kind of difficulties instanced content can offer. This would mean reducing damage to negligible amounts, dealing insane amount of damage to everything in order to meet DPS checks, and being able to somehow ignore wipe mechanics that would require multiple people (T9 golems merging together, for example. There are countless mechanics like this.).
And I not sure what you'd want to achieve with such a job. Yeah, technically this job would be able to solo stuff. But would that be more fun than doing Tam Tara solo with a Lv.70 job? I highly doubt so.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Same with how BLU cannot do primarily solo content, like utilize their Squadrons or even do MSQ (there are the 2.x MSQ after “The Ultimate Weapon”). It’s yet to be seen if they’ll be able to do HW MSQ (when raised to level 60) or SB MSQ (when eventually raised to 70), as well as other content just as PotD or HoH. They can’t even do Hall of Novice. But that’s a different argument that I addressed previously.

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This is another thing entirely. While I agree on the subject of Squadron missions, I think the reason why they locked the MSQ out from BLU is that new players don't get screwed by only playing BLU and then get to a wall when the required level for the MSQ becomes higher than BLU's max level. That's the only explanation I see.
As for Deep Dungeons, the start of these dungeons sync your level down, and make regular job lose a lot of skills in the process. BLU wouldn't be impacted by that, so this specific period would be imbalanced in group play. But in group play only. They could allow BLU to go in solo without much problem. Leaderboards are separated by job anyway.

Did nobody playtest this bloody class? What's the purpose of it? Half the "OP" skills either don't work on enemies that matter or kill you upon use. The other half are so woefully underpowered that literally spamming one spell is the optimal strategy. The potency of primal spells is completely negated by their long cooldown. You'd be contributing more damage by doing your aggro combo as a tank in tank stance.

The leveling is completely unfun. Due to your aforementioned underpoweredness all you can really do is hit packs of mobs with 1K needles because everything else hits like a wet lettuce. It's only until you get your primal spells at 50 does it feel like you're even doing any damage. To actually get those skills is the worst grind in this game that I've ever experienced. I refuse to believe that SE expected full BLU parties to do EX trials given the drop rate and the amount of time it actually takes you to finish some. Shiva is the worst example of this because if someone gets hit by the ice gaols I don't think your party can muster the DPS to actually free them. They're just dead.

Masked Carnivale is fun until you do all the challenges and then you're just left with an unsatisfying, empty feeling. What now? You can't queue for dungeons because you're locked from DF. You can't use your cool new skills because they don't work on relevant enemies. You can't do synced fights because of how weak you are. You can't do relevant content because you're capped at 50. All you can do is meme about by self-destructing in town.

BLU is not broken in the sense in that it's too powerful for the systems in place to handle it. BLU is broken because it just doesn't work.
Delete BLU and start over.

Before anyone says I haven't played it.
https://i.imgur.com/rBVSdvd.png
https://i.imgur.com/U7pYK8M.png

I agree, I've every spell save doom and done a fair bit of the carnival and will finish it up soon. I'm fine with the idea of limited jobs, but it need to earn that limitation, it need to feel like "Yeah, this really wouldn't work in current content." BLU only feels that way in a sense of being pretty weak save fore trash killing.
If not just BLU but limited jobs in general are going to work, they need to feel all powerful in the content their allowed to do, if their limited to old and outdated content then they need to do it better that a max level normal job, let them two shot bosses, solo coil, run around and feel mighty and do interesting things.
In the ocean that is FFXIV if some jobs are going to be asked to sit alone in their own little ponds, they need to be the biggest baddest fish in said ponds, they shouldn't have to keep asking the sea fish to jump into their ponds to help them, that defeats the point.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, first, it was "advertised" as "designed for solo play", not "able to solo all content while being level synced'" which is what you're asking for. Most things that BLU has to offer is doable solo. The only things that's not doable solo (yet, I bet a Lv.70 BLU will be able to do these things solo) are: getting the six 5* primal spells, as well as 8 specific other skills. And that's about it. And yes, it implies using the unsync option.

Whatever the case, and no matter how you argue against it, being able to solo Tam Tara at level 50 is still... being able to solo it. You don't need a party, you don't need a Lv.70 friend. You can just go solo.
What you argue is that it can't do it solo while being level sync'ed. And I agree with you here, it can't. Never said it could.

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Going into a level 16 dungeon to get a skill required for your level 20 job quest while level 50 doesn’t sound a tab bit bass-ackwards to you? Because it does to me. What’s even the point of soloing a level 16 dungeon at 50 when you can just poke a level 70 friend to steamroll it for you while you /follow?

Again, that doesn’t sound like the kind of solo play I had in mind. It’s certainly nothing different from what other combat jobs can already do (i.e., soloing any of the ARR or HW dungeons at level 70, or soloing overworld mobs). I expected a solo job to actually be able to do content solo that other jobs cannot, like doing at-level dungeons while near or at that level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Besides, SE also released promotional materials of Blue Mages playing together and spoke about party play, implying that Blue Mage wasn't all about solo play.

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Yeah, they have to in their current implementation because they can’t get anything done otherwise. Either party up with all BLUs or grab a level 70 friend. Why can’t they do it solo?

Again, I was under the impression they would be capable of doing these things solo, and could choose to group up if they wanted to do so. I wasn’t under the impression that group play was required for the solo job. Especially since they insisted BLU couldn’t play with the other jobs on the playground because “OP”.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Now, whether or not it should be able to solo all content while being level sync'ed is another story, because that would required having a toolkit which basically erase any kind of difficulties instanced content can offer. This would mean reducing damage to negligible amounts, dealing insane amount of damage to everything in order to meet DPS checks, and being able to somehow ignore wipe mechanics that would require multiple people (T9 golems merging together, for example. There are countless mechanics like this.).
And I not sure what you'd want to achieve with such a job. Yeah, technically this job would be able to solo stuff. But would that be more fun than doing Tam Tara solo with a Lv.70 job? I highly doubt so.

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Why shouldn’t you be able to take a supposedly “OP” and “broken” job — that, again, was too OP to balance for group play in “normal duties” — and completely break a fight solo? In my opinion, that would be fun. It’s not fun having to poke my friends for repeated ARR Ex primal runs just so I can hopefully get a skill. I’d love the opportunity to solo it as a level 50 BLU in my own time (and it not take 20 years). Far more fun than steamrolling a level 16 dungeon as a level 50 job.

There is a difference between “a level 50 soloing a level 50 Ex trial” and “a level 50 soloing a level 16 dungeon”. One has the potential to be exciting — breaking a fight sounds fun to me, anyways — but the other is just you steamrolling the same way your level 70 friend steamrolls.

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Originally Posted by Corue

Did nobody playtest this bloody class? What's the purpose of it? Half the "OP" skills either don't work on enemies that matter or kill you upon use. The other half are so woefully underpowered that literally spamming one spell is the optimal strategy. The potency of primal spells is completely negated by their long cooldown. You'd be contributing more damage by doing your aggro combo as a tank in tank stance.

The leveling is completely unfun. Due to your aforementioned underpoweredness all you can really do is hit packs of mobs with 1K needles because everything else hits like a wet lettuce. It's only until you get your primal spells at 50 does it feel like you're even doing any damage. To actually get those skills is the worst grind in this game that I've ever experienced. I refuse to believe that SE expected full BLU parties to do EX trials given the drop rate and the amount of time it actually takes you to finish some. Shiva is the worst example of this because if someone gets hit by the ice gaols I don't think your party can muster the DPS to actually free them. They're just dead.

Masked Carnivale is fun until you do all the challenges and then you're just left with an unsatisfying, empty feeling. What now? You can't queue for dungeons because you're locked from DF. You can't use your cool new skills because they don't work on relevant enemies. You can't do synced fights because of how weak you are. You can't do relevant content because you're capped at 50. All you can do is meme about by self-destructing in town.

BLU is not broken in the sense in that it's too powerful for the systems in place to handle it. BLU is broken because it just doesn't work.
Delete BLU and start over.

Before anyone says I haven't played it.
https://i.imgur.com/rBVSdvd.png
https://i.imgur.com/U7pYK8M.png

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Deleting it is a bit harsh, but I do agree it needs a comprehensive rethink.
The amount of near cloned aoe skills is pretty awful, coupled with a woeful lack in variation of single target ones.
How the developers thought Groundhog Day dungeon running would be fun is beyond me.
Blue Mage solo class = no
Blew it Mage so low class

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Edit2: "Thanks" to Deceptus, I was able to see that quote:No, I blacklisted you because you had no respect for my time, I already told you. The only way to hurt people with facts is to contradict some of their precious subjective opinions. Unfortunatly for you, I almost never state my personal opinion. I mostly argue with objective statements, proofs, and facts. You will never hurt me with facts, they are the very tool I use to argue.

Others: "28 skills cannot be obtained by playing solo! But SE said it was a solo job!"
Me: "Actually, you can learn a lot of "dungeon spells while playing solo. And SE also mentionned party play with BLU."
Others: "OMG! You are such a troll! White knight! Condescending prick!"
This is basically what most "debate" I have boil down to. You might understand why I do blacklist some people. Including you.

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What an ego you have. Every single post of yours is dripping with condescension. You are so absolutely convinced that you are correct in every way, it's sheer arrogance.

For such a paragon of "facts," you sure don't do a good job refuting facts people point out to you.

EDIT: Also, I can't waste your time on this forum. You chose to respond to me, the only one wasting your time was yourself. You absolutely did not have to respond to anything I said but you're so full of yourself that you have to make up stuff about others to justify your own juvenile behavior.

I'll have fun without you guys.

When I heard that Blue Mage was too difficult to incorporate because of balancing, I thought it might at least make a fun run of Bahamut Raid where me and seven other players throw overpowered spells at everything.

Then I queued my Level 16 BLU for Tam-Tara and it took almost two minutes to kill the first two enemies.

So now I can't do current content with BLU and old content isn't ideal either since I'm using spells that are mostly weaker than one cast from a Thaumaturge...

I have 47/49 spells so far (missing Eruption and Glass Dance) and I have yet to feel particularly powerful with BLU. Satisfied when I clear a carnival challenge, maybe, but not powerful.

On a side note, why is the infliction rate of Doom so terrible? I figured on level enemies and stronger enemies would be annoying, but I'm a Level 50 BLU and can't reliably cast it on a Level 19 enemy. I had to use it about 14 times to test it on a mole!

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Going into a level 16 dungeon to get a skill required for your level 20 job quest while level 50 doesn’t sound a tab bit bass-ackwards to you? Because it does to me. What’s even the point of soloing a level 16 dungeon at 50 when you can just poke a level 70 friend to steamroll it for you while you /follow?

Again, that doesn’t sound like the kind of solo play I had in mind. It’s certainly nothing different from what other combat jobs can already do (i.e., soloing any of the ARR or HW dungeons at level 70, or soloing overworld mobs). I expected a solo job to actually be able to do content solo that other jobs cannot, like doing at-level dungeons while near or at that level.

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Why does it matter if I find it to be backwards that you need to go do dungeons unsync? It won't change the fact that you can still learn that skill solo. My personal opinion has very little to do with that.
Again, I never argued against your subjective opinion here. I simply quoted OP, who was saying that "24 out of 49 skills couldn't be obtained solo", to say that most of these could actually be obtained solo.

Can you go in Tam Tara with the unsync option and learn that skill? Of course you can! OP's "fact" was false. And I'm not being pedantic about one single skill... I'm talking about a dozen skills at least.
All I care is that people get their facts straight. Because if you don't, then SE will simply correct you in the next liveletter and assume that you "misunderstood" or you "didn't find alternatives to learn some of these skills".

Try to picture this: It's February, 2nd or 3rd, European Fan Festival is happening. There is a Q/A session. Kahuna (or any Community Manager) reads the question to Yoshida: "During the Las Vegas FanFest, you stated that Blue Mage was 'designed for solo play', but 25 skills can only be obtained by grouping! Why is that?". And then Yoshida answers...: "25 skills? The Blue Mage Grimoire just give you hints! Some of these skills can be obtained somewhere else! Also, you can use the undersize option to do dungeons alone."
And now everyone is disappointed and frustrated. Because the answer is technically correct, but don't answer what people actually want to ask for.
The end.

It's a sad story, right? Unfortunatly, it's not the first time that happened. And it won't be the last. This is why it's important that people get their facts straight, and understand exactly how they should formulate stuff.
Remember what happened when people asked for "harder raids"? That's what happen when you don't articulate your requests properly.

Square Enix is just like a bad genie. If you aren't careful with your wishes, something very wrong is likely to happen.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Yeah, they have to in their current implementation because they can’t get anything done otherwise. Either party up with all BLUs or grab a level 70 friend. Why can’t they do it solo?

Again, I was under the impression they would be capable of doing these things solo, and could choose to group up if they wanted to do so. I wasn’t under the impression that group play was required for the solo job. Especially since they insisted BLU couldn’t play with the other jobs on the playground because “OP”.

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Well, if you want an objective, but disappointing answer as to "why can't they do it solo?", it's probably just a design decision. And again, I want to reiterate that I'm neither defending it or arguing against it.
And in regards to how you personally interpreted what was announced during the reveal, a lot of people also thought that there is no way it could solo everything... But I have to say that it doesn't matter. What matters is how the job actually plays, not a powerpoint presentation and how people interpreted it.

Arguing about what you thought SE meant in that presentation will actually achieve very little. Want me to do the sad story again? I'll make it quick:
Kahuna (or any Community Manager) reads the question to Yoshida: "A lot of people were under the impression that Blue Mage was going to be a solo job in regards to what you presented during the Las Vegas FanFestival...", and Yoshida answers: "Yeah, we understand the confusion. Sorry, we should've been more clear. That aside, The Masked Carnivale is solo! If you want solo content, go do that!"
And now everyone is disappointed [Blablabla].

So, not only people should get their facts straight, but they also should be mindful as to what exactly is relevant if they ever want SE to get back to them in a meaningful way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why shouldn’t you be able to take a supposedly “OP” and “broken” job — that, again, was too OP to balance for group play in “normal duties” — and completely break a fight solo? In my opinion, that would be fun. It’s not fun having to poke my friends for repeated ARR Ex primal runs just so I can hopefully get a skill. I’d love the opportunity to solo it as a level 50 BLU in my own time (and it not take 20 years). Far more fun than steamrolling a level 16 dungeon as a level 50 job.

There is a difference between “a level 50 soloing a level 50 Ex trial” and “a level 50 soloing a level 16 dungeon”. One has the potential to be exciting — breaking a fight sounds fun to me, anyways — but the other is just you steamrolling the same way your level 70 friend steamrolls.

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If you find that idea of basically being the indestructible Superman quite fun, I guess that's fair and I completly respect you having the right to find that fun. But again, I personally (and here's my personal subjective opinion, wooo, finally something people can argue against while using their own) don't really understand why it'd be much different than soloing anything by playing as Lv.70. I can already "break" Ifrit's trial or Lv.50 dungeons by playing solo with pretty much any job. I don't really know what else could Blue Mage bring on the table. I mean, yeah, you can find that fun, but I'm not sure I would.

Besides (back to objective statements) it'd mean that BLU would never be able to reach the current max level (80 for Shadowbringers). It'd have to constantly be behind by 10 levels. Could you imagin if BLU could reach Lv.80 during Shadowbringers? "Nice weapon dude! When did your group cleared [insert whatever 8-man savage raid that Shadowbringers will have]?" - "Oh, I just did it alone with my BLU".
If they were to allow BLU to reach max level, they'd have to completly prevent BLU from getting any reward from current content if it could solo it. The amount of incentives to do whatever -except if a skill can be learned- would be quite small. Not a lot of people go in... I don't know, Snowcloak (?) with their Lv.70 just for the sake of soloing it. Or maybe that's just me who don't do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, if you want an objective, but disappointing answer as to "why can't they do it solo?", it's probably just a design decision.

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Q: "Why'd they do it?"
A: "Because they wanted to."
Q: "Okay, then... why'd they want to?"
A: "Because they did."

No one's asking for the technicalities or code behind BLU's lack of DF permissions. The discussion is on the reasoning behind that design decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Q: "Why'd they do it?"
A: "Because they wanted to."
Q: "Okay, then... why'd they want to?"
A: "Because they did."

No one's asking for the technicalities or code behind BLU's lack of DF permissions. The discussion is on the reasoning behind that design decision.

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"Since FFXIV is an online game, we wanted to keep some incentives on Blue Mage for people playing together. But we still designed it to allow players to play most of it solo if they wanted to: the leveling, most abilities to learn, and -our focus point- the Masked Carnivale. That's what we meant when we said it was designed for solo play. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Only a handful of skills, especially the 5 stars ones, require you to play with others. But since Blue Mage's balance doesn't fit properly in regular parties formed with the Duty Finder, we had to exclude the job from using it. This is what we meant when we said it wasn't suited for parties. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough."

Typical answer you'd get from SE. Would that satisfy you? Because I heavily doubt that you'd get more.
Edit: Besides, you seem to be an old player. You should be able to know how SE answers that kind of stuff by now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Why does it matter if I find it to be backwards that you need to go do dungeons unsync? I won't change the fact that you can still learn that skill solo. My personal opinion has very little to do with that.

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Except it’s a backwards implementation: a level 50 job soloing a level 16 dungeon for a level 20 skill to progress in their job quests (and their purpose, since all BLU boils down to is the Masked Carnivale, which is locked behind your level 50 job quest).

Your sole defense you keep spouting in response to me is backwards, and it’s illogical. How much sense does it make to say “You can still solo the level 16 dungeon for the skill you must have to unlock your level 20 job quest when you finally hit level 50 on BLU”? Very little. It’s a backwards implementation. You should be able to solo Tam Tara at level ~16 on a job that the developers promoted as a job for solo play. That would make far more sense, considering they chose a skill from that dungeon to lock your job quest progression behind (that the only alternative source would probably be the Mindflayer ARR S rank, if he uses it).

While I’m certain the developers are aware players stock up on job quests and do them at a later date (e.g., not doing SB job quests until you actually hit level 70), I don’t think that was their design intention (i.e., “We expected BLUs to wait until they were level 50 and actually do their job quests, because we put in skills that may require doing duties for, and BLU may not be able to successfully solo them at level”). And if they were to tell players “just unsync lmao”, the playerbase would probably just shake their head. It’s counterintuitive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Again, I never argued against your subjective opinion here. I simply quoted OP, who was saying that "24 out of 49 skills couldn't be obtained solo", to say that most of these could actually be obtained solo.

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I’m sure you’re well aware that OP was talking more so about the level-capped 5-star skills. You chose to nit-pick Mind Blast and Glower.

Those (the 5-star skills) cannot be obtained via solo methods or other methods (sans Ifrit AFTER they fix the bug, and maybe Garuda—still gonna have to “lol unsync” them though), and they require party play. You have to party up with other players in order to do them. And it probalby won’t be prudent to be all BLUs either. Someone is going to be a level 70 (probably a healer or a RDM for raising purposes should they be needed), and, at that point, the 70 is carrying the 1~7 BLUs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Can you go in Tam Tara with the unsync option and learn that skill? Of course you can! OP's "fact" was false. And I'm not being pedantic about one single skill... I'm talking about a dozen skills at least.

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I’ll say it again: backwards implementation.

You are being pedantic, because you keep coming back to Tam-Tara. But you haven’t addressed when I’ve brought up the ARR Ex primals, or even the Hildebrand trial. Is Enkidu susceptible to any of the “OP” skills? I find it unlikely that you can successfully defeat them with a mega-buffed Self-Destruct or Final Sting (and you won’t have Missile for HP widdling, since Missile is locked behind Enkidu). Same with the Ex primals. BLU, in its current iteration, will never be able to solo them. I’m curious how well a party of 8 BLUs would fair—I think they’d probably struggle, because their sustain seems fairly weak to me, and the lack of a Raise would be detrimental. They could maybe do it... with a lot of limping. But I wonder if they would comfortably make the enrages.

Efficiency-wise, having a level 70 carry a group of BLUs is still better, especially since the 5-star skills have a low drop rate regardless if you do 1 70/1 BLU or 8 BLUs. Someone stated that they think it would be nice to have the acquisition rate of the 5-stars increase if the group was doing it “properly” with all BLUs, and I have to agree. That would be an incentive to do content in a party of all BLUs (outside of novelty’s sake) as opposed to doing 1 70/1 BLU.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

All I care is that people get their facts straight. Because if you don't, then SE will simply correct you in the next liveletter and assume that you "misunderstood" or you "didn't find alternatives to learn some of these skills".

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Not all skills have alternative sources—Shiva’s skill can only be acquired in her Ex; compare that to Titan, where you can at least learn Mountain Buster from the HM as opposed to the Ex (however, you cannot solo Titan HM, because of the gaol—you have to have someone else in there with you, usually a level 70 because Double BLU would take an unnecessarily long amount of time to do Titan HM; Story mode would be more doable with Double BLU, perhaps, if you can learn Mountain Buster from story mode, but I digress).

And if SE doesn’t want people to “misunderstand”, perhaps they shouldn’t come off as disingenuous about things. Claiming that a job cannot function within the current job system because it would be “too overpowered” or “too broken” carries the connotation that the job would actually be OP and/or broken. Not that it would actually hit like a wet noodle and struggle with sustain, as well as have ridiculous restrictions on some skills (again, Level 5 Petrify).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Try to picture this: It's February, 2nd or 3rd, European Fan Festival is happening. There is a Q/A session. Kahuna (or any Community Manager) reads the question to Yoshida: "During the Las Vegas FanFest, you stated that Blue Mage was 'designed for solo play', but 25 skills can only be obtained by grouping! Why is that?". And then Yoshida answers...: "25 skills? The Blue Mage Grimoire just give you hints! Some of these skills can be obtained somewhere else! Also, you can use the undersize option to do dungeons alone."
And now everyone is disappointed and frustrated. Because the answer is technically correct, but don't answer what people actually want to ask for.
The end.

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Their excuse (and that’s all it is) falls apart the minute you bring up that you cannot learn all the skills from alternative sources. Some of the alternative sources are still locked in duties that cannot be unsynced and steamrolled solo by a BLU (e.g., Flame Thrower comes from the first or second boss in Keeper of the Lake—a level 50 dungeon) or from, ironically, mobs in other expansions (e.g., you can learn Tail Screw from the scorpion mobs right outside of Ala Ghanna in The Peaks).

Doing some of the level 50 dungeons solo can take far more time than necessary. Because, again, this job doesn’t hit any harder than any other level 50 job in i130 gear. Its only saving grace is Missile—which is another skill locked behind a level 50 trial (and only a level 50 trial)—and perhaps Tail Screw... which is locked behind a level 50 dungeon or a level 60+ mob in a Stormblood area. I don’t think Self-Destruct or Final Sting would do enough damage to murder one of the Keeper of the Lake bosses without first spending a lot of time widdling down its health via methods that don’t involve Missile if one doesn’t have that skill (because Flame Thrower from the first boss hurts, and Mighty Guard has a harsh penalty that will make the fight take even longer). You have to consider efficiency.

As mentioned previously, you also cannot learn Mountain Buster solo outside of Titan Ex. His NM and HM cannot be solo’d because of the gaol (though the gaol won’t wipe you in Ex, which also seems backwards, but good luck soloing Titan EX on a BLU as it is now).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Remember what happened when people asked for "harder raids"? That's what happen when you don't articulate your requests properly.

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I’m guessing this is a reference to Gordias? I don’t know how many times I have to state that Gordias was poorly tested and poorly tuned, and that was 100% the fault of the development team—that’s what happens when you do all your testing on God Mode or just test individual mechanics without taking into consideration the entire fight. They even admitted that Gordias’ failure was due to their failure to properly test it. Unfortunately, the damage was already done, and Midas (which a lot of raiders loved Brute Justice) suffered.

That being said, the raid scene has since recovered... yet we’re still on Creator difficulty. I think Final Omega is just slightly above Alexander Prime. At least we have Ultimate, I guess...

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, if you want an objective, but disappointing answer as to "why can't they do it solo?", it's probably just a design decision. And again, I want to reiterate that I'm neither defending it or arguing against it.
And in regards to how you personally interpreted what was announced during the reveal, a lot of people also thought that there is no way it could solo everything... But I have to say that it doesn't matter. What matters is how the job actually plays, not a powerpoint presentation and how people interpreted it.

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The job plays poorly. Certainly not “overpowered” enough that it couldn’t be/shouldn’t be a fully functional job that can function like and play with the other jobs without these silly DF restrictions. The only thing “overpowered” is wrecking mobs below level 40 with 1,000 Needles, which soon loses its novelty once you hit level 50.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Arguing about what you thought SE meant in that presentation will actually achieve very little. Want me to do the sad story again? I'll make it quick

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I’ll pass on an encore of the condescending, fictional story that I’ve already provided a counter to.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

So, not only people should get their facts straight, but they also should be mindful as to what exactly is relevant if they ever want SE to get back to them in a meaningful way.

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I already commented on your nit-picking of Tam-Tara and the “just unsync it” excuses. I am not going to reiterate it here.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If you find that idea of basically being the indestructible Superman quite fun, I guess that's fair and I completly respect you having the right to find that fun. But again, I personally (and here's my personal subjective opinion, wooo, finally something people can argue against while using their own) don't really understand why it'd be much different than soloing anything by playing as Lv.70. I can already "break" Ifrit's trial or Lv.50 dungeons by playing solo with pretty much any job. I don't really know what else could Blue Mage bring on the table. I mean, yeah, you can find that fun, but I'm not sure I would.

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So, you’re saying you see zero difference between a level 50 BLU soloing a level 50 trial, and a level 50 BLU unsycning a level 16 dungeon? Or a level 70 unsyncing anything below their level? While some fights are challenging for some level 70s to solo (T9 is a wonderful example of this), at least there is a challenge involved. Just like there would be a challenge involved in a level 50 BLU soloing T9. There is no challenge in a level 50 BLU soloing Tam-Tara. Just like there is no challenge in having a level 70 faceroll the ARR Ex primals.
btw, with the Golems, you can blow up the meteors that drop and mitigate through the explosions so that you only have to deal with one golem. It takes a bit of finesse to do, but it is doable.

I don’t know how to make you see that one is black and one is white. There is a difference between soloing at level and steamrolling while over-leveled.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Besides (back to objective statements) it'd mean that BLU would never be able to reach the current max level (80 for Shadowbringers). It'd have to constantly be behind by 10 levels. Could you imagin if BLU could reach Lv.80 during Shadowbringers? "Nice weapon dude! When did your group cleared [insert whatever 8-man savage raid that Shadowbringers will have]?" - "Oh, I just did it alone with my BLU".
If they were to allow BLU to reach max level, they'd have to completly prevent BLU from getting any reward from current content if it could solo it. The amount of incentives to do whatever -except if a skill can be learned- would be quite small.

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This comment is irrelevant. Objectively, I wasn’t talking about BLUs reaching current level cap and participating in current content solo. If they aren’t going to be a proper job and be able to participate in content with the other jobs, there’s little reason for them to be able to be at current cap. But why does that mean they have to be as powerful as a wet noodle and unable to solo content that is at their level?

They’re capped at level 50 and require level 70s to carry them through level 50 content.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Not a lot of people go in... I don't know, Snowcloak (?) with their Lv.70 just for the sake of soloing it. Or maybe that's just me who don't do that.

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Not a lot of level 50 BLUs do Tam-Tara for the sake of just soloing it. Outside of skill acquisition, there’s no reason to: there’s no reward, challenge, or accomplishment in doing it—you steamroll it just like a level 70 would. However, being able to actually go into Tam-Tara alone at level 16~17 and solo it would at least offer some semblance of a challenge. It’s something no other job could do at level 16~17.

To be fair you can solo Tam-Tara at level 16 as long as you have 1000 needles it's just not very fun and you don't get any xp for it.

Pretty much the whole job is just meant to do the carnival with and to improve your scoring. Its wows M+ dungeon esport mentality in the form of ffxiv. They have been trying to make this "a thing" since POTD. Carnival Is what's its end game is all about. You can do all of them without the need of primal skills. Those are just extra fluff to keep you busy.

You're completely right

I really enjoy BLU for what it is, and I don't think it's necessary, at least for me, to make it into a "regular" job. But... and a BIG but...

You reach level 50, okay! Ready to go after the more advanced spells... Damn, you need to group up. That goes straightforward against the design they proposed.

Thereforth lies another problem on top of the current problem: Right now you can look for parties in the duty finder, but as soon as people have their spellbooks filled or just get tired of trying, it will be harder to find such parties, and there it is... A lot of missing spells and the only way to get them is to beg for a friend to carry you... There's only so much patience of such friend to carry through the very narrow % chances of a primal hardmode.

A solution? Do like you advertised and make some spells really overpowered, so you can actually solo the places. And rise up the % learning. Not asking for a 100%, but it's very disheartening to spend 40min trying to solo your way to a last boss and never get the spell. Edit: I've backtracked a few posts and saw someone arguing that why make BLU overpowered when you can do it already at any lv70 job? - The answer lies within the job itself. There is a reason for Blue Mages to run old content, to obtain spells. The only reason any other job got to run old content is mostly a specific glamour they want. Currently the survivability is okay, but the spells hit for too low to be worth a damn against trash mobs and bosses.

Also, just to add: Please, unlock MORE endgame content for BLU. The Masked Carnivale is very fun, but outside of weekly rewards, which can lead up to about 40min of gameplay to get through all stages, there's basically nothing else to do as a Blue Mage.

Why BLU can't run solo PotD when it seems to be the perfect challenge for it?

Why BLU can't enter Eureka and auto-sync to 70 (for stats bump), when it seems to be the perfect place for the job?

Why BLU can't cap at 70 like every other job still keeping the restrictions it has - so you can at least have more options of content to do (dailies, sidequests, etc)?

I really think the way Blue Mage was thought of is nice and different, but I honestly hope that this 4.5 stage is more of a test drive and the job will be able to do more than currently at 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Why BLU can't cap at 70 like every other job still keeping the restrictions it has - so you can at least have more options of content to do (dailies, sidequests, etc)?

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Honestly, probably because they wanted to keep it out of end-game raids since blue mage can enter any content with a premade party. Their argument was "Blue mage will be too powerful if you can just use Lv. 5 Death on Omega M/F!" which would be valid if they didn't already prove that they can and do make certain enemies immune to those types of skills (Doom, Missile, and Tail Screw)

Though also, Blue Mage would probably be the least desired job for end-game content because it's damage is pitiful, and will only get worse as it continues to level up with weapons that have no added base damage and no stats.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Honestly, probably because they wanted to keep it out of end-game raids since blue mage can enter any content with a premade party. Their argument was "Blue mage will be too powerful if you can just use Lv. 5 Death on Omega M/F!" which would be valid if they didn't already prove that they can and do make certain enemies immune to those types of skills (Doom, Missile, and Tail Screw)

Though also, Blue Mage would probably be the least desired job for end-game content because it's damage is pitiful, and will only get worse as it continues to level up with weapons that have no added base damage and no stats.

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Yeah, makes sense... And their point of the lv.5 Death argument is SO bad, because any final fantasy veteran knows that such spells have always been worthless on most of the bosses. I actually think that outside of Quina (frogs) I don't remember any instance of a Blue Mage character that was so OP that its presence was the best you could bring for any boss.

Blue Mages for lv70 raids... like you said, horrible damage. White Wind heals for a lot, but isn't anywhere as reliable as a full healer's kit. As a tank it also would fall short. Maybe it would be a good addition to spam Missile and Bad Breath in dungeon trash but that's all I can think it would be OP to do.

BLU is my favorite Final Fantasy job. The open world spell hunting experience was super nostalgic, so I absolutely agree they nailed that part.

That fun only lasted a couple days though... it seems like a huge shame that they put so much work into making visual assets for the job, but didn't just take a little more time to balance it and give it a real rotation.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except it’s a backwards implementation: a level 50 job soloing a level 16 dungeon for a level 20 skill to progress in their job quests (and their purpose, since all BLU boils down to is the Masked Carnivale, which is locked behind your level 50 job quest).

Your sole defense you keep spouting in response to me is backwards, and it’s illogical. How much sense does it make to say “You can still solo the level 16 dungeon for the skill you must have to unlock your level 20 job quest when you finally hit level 50 on BLU”? Very little. It’s a backwards implementation. You should be able to solo Tam Tara at level ~16 on a job that the developers promoted as a job for solo play. That would make far more sense, considering they chose a skill from that dungeon to lock your job quest progression behind (that the only alternative source would probably be the Mindflayer ARR S rank, if he uses it).

While I’m certain the developers are aware players stock up on job quests and do them at a later date (e.g., not doing SB job quests until you actually hit level 70), I don’t think that was their design intention (i.e., “We expected BLUs to wait until they were level 50 and actually do their job quests, because we put in skills that may require doing duties for, and BLU may not be able to successfully solo them at level”). And if they were to tell players “just unsync lmao”, the playerbase would probably just shake their head. It’s counterintuitive.

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Okay? That doesn't answer my question as to why my personal opinion would change the fact that you can go learn skills by doing unsync content. You just can. I don't know what to tell you. I understand that you don't like that possibility, but that's not my point. You completly missed it. But don't worry, you're not the first one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sure you’re well aware that OP was talking more so about the level-capped 5-star skills. You chose to nit-pick Mind Blast and Glower.

Those (the 5-star skills) cannot be obtained via solo methods or other methods (sans Ifrit AFTER they fix the bug, and maybe Garuda—still gonna have to “lol unsync” them though), and they require party play. You have to party up with other players in order to do them. And it probalby won’t be prudent to be all BLUs either. Someone is going to be a level 70 (probably a healer or a RDM for raising purposes should they be needed), and, at that point, the 70 is carrying the 1~7 BLUs.

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No? OP specifically mentionned the 24 (it's actually 25) skills from Dungeons/Trials. Do I need to quote it again?
I'm well aware that these 5 star skills cannot be obtained solo. But saying that the "18 (24-6) dungeon/trials" share the same fate is just wrong.
Also, I didn't nitpick two skills, they were mere examples to prove my point. If you show me 24 marbles, a few of them are green, the rest is red, and tell me "all of these marbles are red", I just have to show you one that isn't to contradict you what you are saying. It's logic 101. That's exactly what I did with OP's argument (in a snarking way, because the initial postulate was ridiculous to begin with). I never argued anything else.
Saying that you need a party to get all the dungeon/trial skills is simply incorrect. I don't know how else to tell you that.

Skill names and owerall location included in this spoiler:

And for the specific case Ram's voice, Dragon's Voice, The Look, High Voltage, and Plaincracker are labeled as "dungeon/trial" skills here, that require a party, but can be acquired solo on the overworld or the Carnivale. So, again, including these in the "24 skills you cannot obtain solo" is simply and factually wrong. I really don't know why anyone would argue otherwise or argue against that objective fact.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ll say it again: backwards implementation.

You are being pedantic, because you keep coming back to Tam-Tara. But you haven’t addressed when I’ve brought up the ARR Ex primals, or even the Hildebrand trial. Is Enkidu susceptible to any of the “OP” skills? I find it unlikely that you can successfully defeat them with a mega-buffed Self-Destruct or Final Sting (and you won’t have Missile for HP widdling, since Missile is locked behind Enkidu). Same with the Ex primals. BLU, in its current iteration, will never be able to solo them. I’m curious how well a party of 8 BLUs would fair—I think they’d probably struggle, because their sustain seems fairly weak to me, and the lack of a Raise would be detrimental. They could maybe do it... with a lot of limping. But I wonder if they would comfortably make the enrages.

Efficiency-wise, having a level 70 carry a group of BLUs is still better, especially since the 5-star skills have a low drop rate regardless if you do 1 70/1 BLU or 8 BLUs. Someone stated that they think it would be nice to have the acquisition rate of the 5-stars increase if the group was doing it “properly” with all BLUs, and I have to agree. That would be an incentive to do content in a party of all BLUs (outside of novelty’s sake) as opposed to doing 1 70/1 BLU.

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Holy Heck. I am not being pedantic. People say that 24 skills cannot be obtained solo when some of them can, meaning that 24 is not an accurate number, thus, a factually wrong argument. That's all I'm saying. I don't care about your own personal preference about how you'd want to be able to solo everything while level sync'd or that going unsync is "backward implementation". This is completly irrelevant to my point. People say "these skills require a party" when it's not true for a lot of them.
Just how many times do I need to repeat what my point is? People say I'm "angry" when I post. I'm actually facepalming very, very hard out of the despair that get to me when I repeat stuff dozens of times and people still continue to get it wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not all skills have alternative sources—Shiva’s skill can only be acquired in her Ex; compare that to Titan, where you can at least learn Mountain Buster from the HM as opposed to the Ex (however, you cannot solo Titan HM, because of the gaol—you have to have someone else in there with you, usually a level 70 because Double BLU would take an unnecessarily long amount of time to do Titan HM; Story mode would be more doable with Double BLU, perhaps, if you can learn Mountain Buster from story mode, but I digress).

And if SE doesn’t want people to “misunderstand”, perhaps they shouldn’t come off as disingenuous about things. Claiming that a job cannot function within the current job system because it would be “too overpowered” or “too broken” carries the connotation that the job would actually be OP and/or broken. Not that it would actually hit like a wet noodle and struggle with sustain, as well as have ridiculous restrictions on some skills (again, Level 5 Petrify).

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I never said that all of these dungeons/trials skills could be learn solo or via alternatives methods. I said "a dozen of them".
Half of the skills OP said are impossible to get solo can be obtained solo. If that's not enough for you to disprove their claims, I don't know what is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Their excuse (and that’s all it is) falls apart the minute you bring up that you cannot learn all the skills from alternative sources. Some of the alternative sources are still locked in duties that cannot be unsynced and steamrolled solo by a BLU (e.g., Flame Thrower comes from the first or second boss in Keeper of the Lake—a level 50 dungeon) or from, ironically, mobs in other expansions (e.g., you can learn Tail Screw from the scorpion mobs right outside of Ala Ghanna in The Peaks).

Doing some of the level 50 dungeons solo can take far more time than necessary. Because, again, this job doesn’t hit any harder than any other level 50 job in i130 gear. Its only saving grace is Missile—which is another skill locked behind a level 50 trial (and only a level 50 trial)—and perhaps Tail Screw... which is locked behind a level 50 dungeon or a level 60+ mob in a Stormblood area. I don’t think Self-Destruct or Final Sting would do enough damage to murder one of the Keeper of the Lake bosses without first spending a lot of time widdling down its health via methods that don’t involve Missile if one doesn’t have that skill (because Flame Thrower from the first boss hurts, and Mighty Guard has a harsh penalty that will make the fight take even longer). You have to consider efficiency.

As mentioned previously, you also cannot learn Mountain Buster solo outside of Titan Ex. His NM and HM cannot be solo’d because of the gaol (though the gaol won’t wipe you in Ex, which also seems backwards, but good luck soloing Titan EX on a BLU as it is now).

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Read again. Please. And do it carefully. Actually, I'll write the tl;dr for you. Sorry, I can't do much better: If you say to SE "25 skills cannot be acquired solo", they can answer "that's not true, some of them can". If you still don't understand what I'm saying, and why I'm saying it, I'm sorry but this is as far as I can go. I don't know how to make it more clear.

And yes, you can get the skill solo in the Keeper of the lake. And no, you don't have to "first spending a lot of time widdling down its health [blahblahblah Efficency].", just Doom it. Solo obtainable skill. Same for High Voltage. Just Doom it (T2). Same for Diamondback. Just Doom it (Steps of Faith's add).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m guessing this is a reference to Gordias? I don’t know how many times I have to state that Gordias was poorly tested and poorly tuned, and that was 100% the fault of the development team—that’s what happens when you do all your testing on God Mode or just test individual mechanics without taking into consideration the entire fight. They even admitted that Gordias’ failure was due to their failure to properly test it. Unfortunately, the damage was already done, and Midas (which a lot of raiders loved Brute Justice) suffered.

That being said, the raid scene has since recovered... yet we’re still on Creator difficulty. I think Final Omega is just slightly above Alexander Prime. At least we have Ultimate, I guess...

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Yoshida often refers to people asking for "harder raids/easier raids" to basically say that we don't know what we want. Or, at least, that we don't know how to ask for it properly.
And he isn't wrong on that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The job plays poorly. Certainly not “overpowered” enough that it couldn’t be/shouldn’t be a fully functional job that can function like and play with the other jobs without these silly DF restrictions. The only thing “overpowered” is wrecking mobs below level 40 with 1,000 Needles, which soon loses its novelty once you hit level 50.

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If you think that being able to wipe any trash mob pulls in dungeons, and instantly kill some bosses isn't overpowered enough, okay. This stuff can completly ruin any player experiencing a dungeon for the first time. If that's not something you care about, then okay. I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ll pass on an encore of the condescending, fictional story that I’ve already provided a counter to.

I already commented on your nit-picking of Tam-Tara and the “just unsync it” excuses. I am not going to reiterate it here.

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I guess we'll see in the future who was right. /schrug

(To be honest, I hope I'm wrong, and that SE won't use people's poor arguments to badly answer their concerns, but at the same time it could be the biggest and well deserved "I told you so" after all the hate I'm getting...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So, you’re saying you see zero difference between a level 50 BLU soloing a level 50 trial, and a level 50 BLU unsycning a level 16 dungeon? Or a level 70 unsyncing anything below their level? While some fights are challenging for some level 70s to solo (T9 is a wonderful example of this), at least there is a challenge involved. Just like there would be a challenge involved in a level 50 BLU soloing T9. There is no challenge in a level 50 BLU soloing Tam-Tara. Just like there is no challenge in having a level 70 faceroll the ARR Ex primals.
btw, with the Golems, you can blow up the meteors that drop and mitigate through the explosions so that you only have to deal with one golem. It takes a bit of finesse to do, but it is doable.

I don’t know how to make you see that one is black and one is white. There is a difference between soloing at level and steamrolling while over-leveled.

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No, that's not what I'm saying. You basically want a god mode on your BLU to be able to solo everything. I'm saying that I don't see why it's different from going in any ARR content with a level 70.
Please, if you are going to answer "I don't want a god mode!", then you'll have to explain EXACTLY how you could solo anything level sync'ed with a Blue Mage without basically being invulnerable and dealing insane amount of damage to be able to meet DPS checks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This comment is irrelevant. Objectively, I wasn’t talking about BLUs reaching current level cap and participating in current content solo. If they aren’t going to be a proper job and be able to participate in content with the other jobs, there’s little reason for them to be able to be at current cap. But why does that mean they have to be as powerful as a wet noodle and unable to solo content that is at their level?

They’re capped at level 50 and require level 70s to carry them through level 50 content.

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I agree, it was beyond the point. But still, SE said that they are going to raise BLU's level. If BLU reached Lv.80 during Shadowbringer, then your idea of BLU being a god-like job is an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not a lot of level 50 BLUs do Tam-Tara for the sake of just soloing it. Outside of skill acquisition, there’s no reason to: there’s no reward, challenge, or accomplishment in doing it—you steamroll it just like a level 70 would. However, being able to actually go into Tam-Tara alone at level 16~17 and solo it would at least offer some semblance of a challenge. It’s something no other job could do at level 16~17.

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What challenge? Being able to solo it means that you can tank what a tank can tank, that you can heal what a healer can heal, and can deal the damage of -at least- two people combined.
And regarding damage, it also means that you should be able to resist to shared mechanics. Ie: taking a Nidhogg shared Ahk Morn in the face solo. You should also be able to resist wipe mechanics based on the position of multiple members, since you are alone. For example, in O12S, against Omega M/F, if you bring them together while they need to be taken appart, they buff themselves and do INSANE amount of damage. Your idea of what a BLU should be able to do has to be able to resist these kind of mechanics.

EDIT: Quotting myself from another thread:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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I don't know why I even bother. Answer what you want, I don't care anymore. You guys won (everyone who tried to shoot me down, not just the two I quoted).

I wanted people to use proper arguments by arguing against the bad ones in order not to give ammo to SE to shoot them down, was called a white knight and a troll for doing so. A few people tried to argue the same things as I did, without much success unfortunatly. The official forum's echo chamber is quite strong.

Either you (the forums) or me will be able to make quite a big "I told you so" quite soon. I sincerely hope, for the sake of the game, that you will. But if I am the one to make it... boy would it be deserved.

Bye.

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I'm not playing the victim card, I'm just fed up. Won't argue about BLU anymore. Continue complaining about the stuff you think is relevant.

Just one last for the road:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument?

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Good freaking question. If only it didn't came way too late. And if only people actually did care about good arguments.
Besides, don't you know? I'm just a troll and a white knight. You won't get anything from my answers. So go ask someone else.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

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You don't even say why that would be relevant, you imply that would make for a "good" argument, you arbitrarily put aside the most obvious and relevant answer to your question, you obviously don't think that leveling is a "meaningfull" answer even if it's true that BLU is better at leveling solo that any other job (MSQ's EXP is not job dependant, and often does require group play to progress)... See, that's the kind of stuff I'm fed up with. People don't want good arguments, they just want to argue.
Find someone else, I pass.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hypocrite.

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Troll.
You know exactly what your question was meant to do. And it was not to get "good arguments". You deliberatly asked a question in a tricky way by putting aside the actual answer(s) in order to be sure that I wouldn't be able answer it properly. That's complete dishonesty and the very reason why I'm stopping this whole joke of a debate.
Think of that as hypocrisy if you want, I don't care. At least I know how I argue.

SE did rule out the "solo job" argument by speaking about party play. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.
Not all skills that the Grimoire list as "dungeon/trial" skill are only obtainable by grouping. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.
Even when I made up hypothetical "SE answers" when answering HyoMinPark, it was based on multiple precedent. SE do avoid answering questions by picking specific arguments -bad ones- that people make. They do it all the time. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.

If warning people about the potential bad consequences of their innacurate or flat our wrong statements makes me a white knight, a troll and a hypocrite when I'm finally fed up of the stuff they throw at me and quit as a result, then so be it. Call me whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You know... I had a post all written out to you, but really, what’s the point in arguing with a brick wall? I know a pointless endeavor when I see one. Your point when you came into this thread wasn’t to “argue facts” or “prove that NOT ALL of the skills are locked behind dungeons”; you were just being snarky with your comment:
Nothing more, nothing less.
I will just say this, though: you should probably lay off the condescension in your posts. Maybe then people would be more receptive to what you say.
Comments like this also don’t help you.

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Maybe I wouldn't be so snarky if people stopped spreading lies and using pityful/obnoxious arguing methods. You know, when you have to repeat your point dozens of times because people keep getting it wrong on purpose just to be able to argue something completly off the mark in return, it does tend to get on your nerves. Well, at least on mine. Also, when I started to present my points (not in this thread) on a neutral tone, guess what it did? Absolutly nothing different from when I'm being "snarky and condescending". I actually answered to you quite neutrally too at first. Did that prevent you from going multiple times completly off the rails and starting to speak about stuff completly unrelated to my point? No, it didn't. So don't give me that kind of advice if you know very well that it does nothing since yourself did pretty much the same thing everyone else did regardless of the tone I used to speak to you personally.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

that doesn’t address the ones who don’t have alternatives (or whose alternatives are in another castle, so to speak), which I noticed that you continued to avoid in your replies to me.

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Because it had absolutly NOTHING to do with the point I was making. I didn't avoid answering to you, I tried to get you back on track about what I started to talk about initially: telling someone (in a snarky way, but then properly explained) that the figure they used is objectively wrong. Gosh, I just explained it to you in one of the biggest wall of text I ever made on these forums AND YOU STILL DIDN'T GET IT.
No, 24 skills don't require group play. The exact figure is 14. THAT'S MY ONLY POINT.

Sorry... I can't... I'll just... I'll just go now. Thank you for making my point about why I should simply leave. I shouldn't have made "just one last for the road"...

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument? Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Okay? That doesn't answer my question

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You know... I had a post all written out to you, but really, what’s the point in arguing with a brick wall? I know a pointless endeavor when I see one. Your point when you came into this thread wasn’t to “argue facts” or “prove that NOT ALL of the skills are locked behind dungeons”; you were just being snarky with your comment:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Sorry to hear that you have trouble doing Tam Tara solo at level 50. Or that it's too hard to cast Doom on some bosses.

Would you like some tips?

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Nothing more, nothing less.


I will just say this, though: you should probably lay off the condescension in your posts. Maybe then people would be more receptive to what you say.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I'm not playing the victim card, I'm just fed up. Won't argue about BLU anymore. Continue complaining about the stuff you think is relevant.

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Comments like this also don’t help you.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument? Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

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That BLU has been implemented wonderfully, has no issues to it, and was never advertised as a solo only job and that SE has perfectly implemented the way BLU should be.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Maybe I wouldn't be so snarky if people stopped spreading lies and using pityful/obnoxious arguing methods.

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“Spreading lies”?

What, by saying that it’s impossible and/or infeasible to obtain more than just a handful of skills via solo methods—because the OP said both, and so did I. You gave a handful of skills that have alternatives, which I actively acknowledged prior to your latest wall of text—that doesn’t address the ones who don’t have alternatives (or whose alternatives are in another castle, so to speak), which I noticed that you continued to avoid in your replies to me.

Disagreeing with party play in a job that was advertised as a limited, solo job because it was “so OP it would break traditional parties”? As I said before, outside of a handful of skills (I noticed that you missed that detail when you were throwing around your Doom rebuttal—Doom doesn’t always work, by the way), BLU is not as overpowered and as broken as the developers claimed it would be. They came off as disingenuous when they claimed it as such. Each reasoning they’ve given for why it has to remain limited can be easily rebutted.


“Pitiful/obnoxious arguing methods”?

Kind of like your hypothetical fanfest story that you’re treating as the be-all-end-all of your argument and telling me to read again like it will suddenly change my mind? Sorry, it doesn’t. It’s hypothetical, and a weak excuse/argument at the very best. Repeating it isn’t an adequate rebuttal to the rebuttal I initially provided it.


But at least you acknowledged your intent was to just be snarky with that comment. I’ll give you that.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Just one last for the road:

Good freaking question. If only it didn't came way too late. And if only people actually did care about good arguments.
Besides, don't you know? I'm just a troll and a white knight. You won't get anything from my answers. So go ask someone else.
You don't even say why that would be relevant, you imply that would make for a "good" argument, you arbitrarily put aside the most obvious and relevant answer to your question, you obviously don't think that leveling is a "meaningfull" answer even if it's true that BLU is better at leveling solo that any other job (MSQ's EXP is not job dependant, and often does require group play to progress)... See, that's the kind of stuff I'm fed up with. People don't want good arguments, they just want to argue.

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Hypocrite.

I really dislike that we are not rewarded with a 100% chance of getting the skill if we complete the trial/dungeon synced with a full BLU party. It just encourage everyone to just mindlessly complete all the content with lvl 70 friends.
I would like BLU more if we could complete all contents with a full BLU party and get rewarded properly for that.

I feel that most of the "broken" capabilities of BLU are in the 79 missing skills from the announced 128 total. At least I hope.
I do like that the "end-game" of BLU mage is farming Spells instead of farming Ilvl. But it's just a wasted potential if there's no proper reward for doing a full BLU party.
I wish elemental weakness was a thing only for BLU in instanced content and overworld, that would make it shine the BLU OP capabilities.

It's not bad the idea of limited Job, but it needs to justify the limited factor with more valuable gameplay.
But, as it stands now, it's just wasted potential. I really hope that they expands it more.

I completely dislike RNG. It's just a LAZY way to put rewards without planing a proper progression where everyone who complete goals can be rewarded proportionally. They need to stop using RNG and start doing a reward system based on merit instead of pure luck.

A simple gauge for every Spell showing the learned % of the spell would be far more better than just RNG. What's the difficulty for then to just copy paste the light farming system and convert it to something similar for the spell learning? This way we could learn the spell a bit more every attempt instead of just wasted time with pure RNG.

Is their problem the lore? I say prioritize gameplay first.

I really do wish this job wasn't as limited as they made it out to be. I'm still leveling mine but I hear people at 50 who say it doesn't feel that busted. If that is actually the case, couldn't they have at least let people queue into DF-able dungeons/raids/trials?? It's insignificant content! At least that way some people could feel that they at least main the job...

Would that situation the devs described be a problem? You know, people giving each other shit for not having X or Y skill? I'm not quite sure myself, but it somewhat reminds me of people who somehow don't even unlock their jobs until much later than expected.

Having collected all the spells, got BIS, finishing Masked Carnivale and farming Chocobo to Lvl 20 on BLU, I believe this job was done a great injustice overall for several reasons.

1) First off, this class is hardly unbalanced or overpowered with it's current toolkit and actually a little under powered. Yes the Primal skills offset that but only slightly. When you try to do dungeon content it feels lacking a bit. Things like Doom, Missle, Tail Screw almost never work on final bosses, maybe sub bosses and fates on average. Some skills have limited utility and the whole kit barely has unity of any kind. Really the only few skills I use outside of primals were, Off Guard, Healing Wind, Peculiar Light, Glower, Occasional Missle and if Glower wasn't the best option then Ram's Voice. You don't need anything else. Moon Flute as I mentioned before is silly to have a re-cast time, given it's effect. Either allow the buff to be refreshed, or nuke the re-cast time.

2) Considering Garuda and Shiva REQUIRE EX to do, most people are just going in with carries and learn trading. The ridiculously low percentage to learn the primal skills is expected but the amount of runs required (if unlucky) highly contradicts the whole solo aspect. Same things with dungeons. If the class is not strong enough to steamroll dungeons/primals for skills, then why insist on giving it so many limitations to party play? Like someone suggested, a full party consisting of BLU's should in fairness, bring up the skill learn rate to 100% for the EX Primals. All of those fights would be tough but fun for all the BLUs involved.

3) Chocobo EXP, Here me out. I believe this is the one thing that should remain as it is currently in-game. The reason is simply this, I believe SE made the right call on this. You make a class "level" essentially by fighting open world mobs. Chocobos past lvl 10 take obnoxiously long times to level and usually, most people I would argue don't even bother because of the grind. I believe this gives BLU RELEVANCE in FFXIV in it's current form. If you aren't gonna do anything about the skills/roles/ party play aspect then why change any of the solo elements that give it some sort of identity? BLU / Companion Training is good role chemistry.

With that said, I'm not gonna sit here and say it should be able to raid and such cause in it's current form, it would be a nightmare to tweak but some ideas are clearly present. The skills overall come off defensive and counter-active. Whether that was on purpose or not, I think it should be a tank that works with combos on skills (kinda like Stun / Stab or RAM/Dragon), and counter attacks. The toolkit is inherently there. Just tweak it to work for FFXIV.

Blue is a fail sadly. What you use it for? More that 50% of the skills are bad filers.
If you at last get loot and glams from blue then it be some what ok. As of now its a fail like eureka only this time there no relic to " force" you to stay.

I'm just wondering where the Blue Mage road is going, what is it's intended destination? To me it's a side show, which you either do now or struggle in future.
Why do it now? - people coming late into Blue will have a lot harder time with party finder after the first flush of blueness has faded.
Why a side show? - you complete the skills (if you have the patience to mindlessly run innumerable dungeons in 2/2 or 4/4 splits). Complete Carnival then..........park it and go back to you proper classes. A bit of a distraction, but that's all.

If they where going to do this limited class they should have allowed it to have a greater role differentiation earlier on. Allow a level 50 Blue to properly focus on heal/tank as well as dps.
Coupled with giving a full Blue party a significantly higher skill acquisition rate in the dungeons, you would at least encourage more versatile play rather than Blues following a couple of lvl 70's round the dungeons - many, many times.

At present it's going to be, or maybe already is, a short lived 'play n park' gimmick.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

I'm just wondering where the Blue Mage road is going, what is it's intended destination? To me it's a side show, which you either do now or struggle in future.
Why do it now? - people coming late into Blue will have a lot harder time with party finder after the first flush of blueness has faded.
Why a side show? - you complete the skills (if you have the patience to mindlessly run innumerable dungeons in 2/2 or 4/4 splits). Complete Carnival then..........park it and go back to you proper classes. A bit of a distraction, but that's all.

If they where going to do this limited class they should have allowed it to have a greater role differentiation earlier on. Allow a level 50 Blue to properly focus on heal/tank as well as dps.
Coupled with giving a full Blue party a significantly higher skill acquisition rate in the dungeons, you would at least encourage more versatile play rather than Blues following a couple of lvl 70's round the dungeons - many, many times.

At present it's going to be, or maybe already is, a short lived 'play n park' gimmick.

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That's the thing isn't it? People are defending the Limited BLU as a refreshing new direction for jobs, but at the end of the day, new patches and expansions will come with new dungeons, raids, trials and story (because, want it or not, that's the main content of the game, and the one you do to progress), and to progress you'll have to park BLU and go back to another job. Some people actually wanted to do that content as BLU. That's where the outrage comes from.

People can say it's like DoH and DoL, but not only was Blue Mage always a normal battle job like all the others we got, hence why people want it to be in FFXIV as well, but DoH and DoL also complement the DoW and DoM jobs in many relevant ways, even if they're not obligatory. They can make gear and consumables for battle jobs, they're the best way to make money with which the player can buy more gear and consumables, can repair gear, can meld materia, etc. BLU just feels completely separate.

I was thinking... regarding the RNG, what if they implemented bad luck protection? As in: more you run the content, more chances you accumulate. Eventually, even if you have terrible luck, after the 25th Leviathan fight you'd get his spell.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I was thinking... regarding the RNG, what if they implemented bad luck protection? As in: more you run the content, more chances you accumulate. Eventually, even if you have terrible luck, after the 25th Leviathan fight you'd get his spell.

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That's be the totem system some people are asking for.