Should they remove positionals at this point?

Remove positionals in open world content.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Remove positionals in open world content.

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this is honestly a fine compromise because it doesn't change any skill potencies/effects and I really dont think anyone complaining about their personal DPS cares about open world content stealing their positionals.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Remove positionals in open world content.

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Yes. This please. I've been asking for this since Heavensward. They upped the difficulty of monsters in the field by player request, then made it impossible for jobs like monk to actually do the damage needed to effectively take on these monsters when you're fighting them at level.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Yes. This please. I've been asking for this since Heavensward. They upped the difficulty of monsters in the field by player request, then made it impossible for jobs like monk to actually do the damage needed to effectively take on these monsters when you're fighting them at level.

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i thought this is what abilities like true north was meant to combat?

but that said, i find my self in agreeance for Open world PVE trash mobs, but FATES and Hunts should still have them imho since those are more group activities

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

i thought this is what abilities like true north was meant to combat?

but that said, i find my self in agreeance for Open world PVE trash mobs, but FATES and Hunts should still have them imho since those are more group activities

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True North, even with its reduced cool down, doesn't really work when you're trying to get from point A to point B in a story quest and there's 10 mobs inbetween since you only get the buff for 15 seconds and then it's on a 90 second cool down. This was a 150 second cool down when I was trying to progress through Stormblood, so the skill was basically only used for that emergency situation of "use this now, or this enemy will kill you before you can kill it"

This might be better if left unchanged come Shadowbringers since monk in particular got it's potencies when missing a positional boosted, it's no longer a 40 potency punishment for missing. We will have to see....

Hitting positionals should do something more for each job. Adds a few seconds to Blood of the Dragon/Life of the Dragon, Increases Ninki slightly more, etc

I agree with the OP in that Seiryu is really annoying for melee positionals, not that positionals are hard, but that the fight itself is designed to be very anti-melee with the in-out mechanics, Forbidden Arts, big chungus slams and Serpent Ascending + Crossword aoe. Making it impossible to hit all positionals even with a very coordinated team.

But there ain't many fights that are as bias as Seiryu but I guess this is what they came up with to counter the caster unfriendliness from Suzaku.

Also there are some classes that gets the best of all worlds like Bard (maybe MCH? I don't play it), RDM and SMN. They get all the benefits of being ranged while having minor inconveniences of having to move (due to Dual cast and instant cast spells/dots).

Why do we even have to do content? We'll just beat it anyway, just give us an "I win" button and everyone can feel special.

tbh i'm for he removal of positionals, as often as we have to move around and bosses spontaneously turn, etc, they're kinda frustrating. a complete combat overhaul would be cool imo, too, though...

Positionals should be in the game, anyone thinks otherwise is objectively wrong.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

This isn't anything new, but the new EX fight (last half) really drives the point home about how hard it can be to properly hit your positionals on a melee class. So much so that the only adjustments made to MNK were in regards to more damage for NOT hitting your positionals and a shorter cooldown on True North, because the difference in doing so was much larger. They clearly acknowledged that it was a problem, in fact the addition of True North itself originally should be the obvious example.

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They've acknowledged that the gap between a bad mnk and a good mnk is massive and wanted to reduce the disparity. Positionals reward better play they might be easy to do, but going for more of them and hitting as many as possible is the challenge. Seiryu EX doesn't really prevent you hitting positionals, it prevents you from hitting as many like you can in other fights like o9s or o10s. True north is there for the moments when you can't hit them, an expression of skill finding the best places to use it.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

From a learning perspective players have to learn their rotations + fight mechanics and then there's the added degree of difficulty with positionals for the fights with the only benefit being you do more dps. With DPS checks being a thing, with the above changes to MNK, and with the design of these recent boss fights it feels like they are basically accepting the fact that you aren't going to hit positionals every time.

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Learning your own rotation and fight mechanics is pretty fucking easy. Oh no god forbid that you use positional to become better and do more DPS on a DPS job. It's called optimizing, you know the thing that literally every role should be doing anyways. And how are DPS checks a bad thing?...

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Originally Posted by zeth07

To me this is either bad game design or bad boss/es design. You have a skill set that promotes a higher learning curve that separates good players / bad players, then purposefully design fights that take that a step further and say good luck trying to land them OR here is a fight where you can ignore them entirely. That's really what makes me question why they exist.

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Please don't use "bad design" without knowing what the design is trying to do. The design choice to make positionals harder to do in some fights is to make it more challenging for a player to do well in a fight. It adds an element of getting better at the game, something that should be encouraged in EX and above content. Let me put it another way, if a caster didn't have cast times and could move around just as freely as bard or machinist. Would it still be a caster?

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Originally Posted by zeth07

I would also say the positionals of the boss are still important to learn, so I don't think it should just be a plain targeting circle even if it no longer applies to player's skills. Not getting hit by a cleave cause you are standing in front of it for example. In fact I wouldn't even mind a slight resign to make the flank more distinct if it stays.

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Now you're contradicting yourself. You shouldn't be standing in-front of the boss anyways so that's a moot point. I do agree that the difference between flank and rear should be more distinct however.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

There is also the issue when soloing which isn't hugely important given how easy it is, but you are basically stuck with True North or hoping they just so happen to cast long spells while you just so happen to be on your positional gcd. Prior to the TN cooldown change, you didn't exactly get to do it that often and even now 90 seconds isn't exactly a short amount of time. Thankfully everything dies before you can even go through half your rotation anyway so while the point is valid it is kind of moot at the same time.

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This I agree with, questing on monk is harder than it should be compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

Additionally I should bring up Eureka and Deep Dungeon. For whatever design reason they thought it was ok for none of these mobs to require positionals. Why is that? The mobs and bosses are effectively the same mechanically if not easier than usual, so why was it worth it to remove them in this case and not throughout the game? Someone put actual thought into it for a reason.

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This tells me you've missed the point of those two pieces of content. They're "soloable" so making things that face you 24/7 have positionals would ruin it for a monk player for example.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

Given the above, I don't think removing positionals would make the those jobs "boring" because:

1) Hard fights are mechanic heavy and either make it nearly impossible to maintain full uptime + positionals anyway OR remove the need for them entirely given the nature of the boss.
2) You don't even effectively use them half the time when soloing.
3) They are removed from content where it doesn't even matter anyway.

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1) Again, learn where you are able to use them and get as many possible is a skill that should be learned.
2) True
3) lol

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Originally Posted by Gumpy

Positionals should be in the game, anyone thinks otherwise is objectively wrong.

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I don't mind having positionals but I'm gonna have to stop you right here. They don't have to be in the game imo. In fact they could be taken out tomorrow and it wouldn't make much difference. Heck, ranged jobs don't really have them at all. Some fights don't even require them. We still have our rotations though which can be simple or complex depending on the job and is more than enough. You are free to have your opinion but just because people disagree with it doesn't mean they're wrong.

The most popular job right now from what I’ve seen is Bard, followed closed by Red Mage. I think it’s telling that the most popular DPS jobs are the ones that have no positional requirements whatsoever and simple, easy rotations (Bard technically doesn’t even have a standard rotation).

I think that if melee didn’t have positional, the gap between ranged and melee would become smaller.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

They don't have to be in the game imo. In fact they could be taken out tomorrow and it wouldn't make much difference. Heck, ranged jobs don't really have them at all. Some fights don't even require them. We still have our rotations though which can be simple or complex depending on the job and is more than enough.

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Ignore the rest of my post, but ok you do you. Ranged jobs with positionals would be aids. Positionals to some extent are part of the rotation and should be planned around.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You are free to have your opinion but just because people disagree with it doesn't mean they're wrong.

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People who believe the earth is flat have an opinion too, doesn't mean they're right.

Get rid of the positionals, please, they have been such a pain around larger bosses.

But positionals are fun

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Get rid of the positionals, please, they have been such a pain around larger bosses.

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Ah yes, size makes a massive difference.
http://i.imgur.com/Fg8moZ1.png

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Originally Posted by Gumpy

Positionals should be in the game, anyone thinks otherwise is objectively wrong.

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I'm not sure you understand what 'objective' means.

They have been slowly edging positionals out over the years with the addition of True North and constantly lowering the penalty for a missed positional. They really should just finish the job as positionals are a relic of a different game. As a melee DPS is just gets frustrating all the times where you have no True North ready and need to do mechanics but can't (or can't safely) do positionals at no fault of your own. Speaking nothing of all the enemies that regularly and frequently turn to lob an attack on the group making you have to learn the timing and hoping you can anticipate where you need to be for a modest damage increase every time it occurs.

Other games have managed to make compelling melee gameplay without an over-reliance on having to dance about an enemy to edge out your damage. Besides melee already have the trouble of uptime to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Connor

The most popular job right now from what I’ve seen is Bard, followed closed by Red Mage. I think it’s telling that the most popular DPS jobs are the ones that have no positional requirements whatsoever and simple, easy rotations (Bard technically doesn’t even have a standard rotation).

I think that if melee didn’t have positional, the gap between ranged and melee would become smaller.

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You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

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Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

I think the biggest issue with positionals is a design philosophy one. The current system is designed to punish you for screwing up but there are no rewards for doing a good job. That's not fun for most people.

I'd be very happy if they removed positionals, it adds a bunch of needless busywork to DPSing as a melee. I'd rather focus on mechanics than having to run to this side for that attack and then that side for this attack, etc.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I think the biggest issue with positionals is a design philosophy one. The current system is designed to punish you for screwing up but there are no rewards for doing a good job. That's not fun for most people.

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The reward is more damage though? For crying out loud they just buffed the base potency of a load of monk skills to close the gap, making it even easier to do competitive levels of damage.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I think the biggest issue with positionals is a design philosophy one. The current system is designed to punish you for screwing up but there are no rewards for doing a good job. That's not fun for most people.

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Isn't it reward enough that you do more damage?

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

The reward is more damage though? For crying out loud they just buffed the base potency of a load of monk skills to close the gap, making it even easier to do competitive levels of damage.

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If they are going to keep buffing non positionals to the point they don't matter then why have them at that point. If they don't remove positionals I think the Position should be shown on the targeting ring around the enemy. They could also make it more apparent when you do a positional such as bigger numbers or different colored numbers or something. The only time I really know when I do a positional on SAM is if I get 10 Kenki or 5. Granted I mostly only have a hard time with positionals when the boss is spinning like a ballerina either due to the tank or just the boss design.

I hope they stay.
I can understand that it can be frustrating on certain fights and on more demanding content like EX/Savage that are heavy on mechanics.

But if they removed them altogether i feel it would make easier fights (NM 8-mans/24-mans/dungeons) incredibly dull.

Fully agree on removing them on overworld mobs though, really no point to keep them there.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I'd be very happy if they removed positionals, it adds a bunch of needless busywork to DPSing as a melee. I'd rather focus on mechanics than having to run to this side for that attack and then that side for this attack, etc.

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I'm sorry but if that is what you enjoy while playing DPS I would advise you to play ranged physical dps instead. Arguably you get targetted by more mechanics as well so from the tiny insight this post gives me, it seems you should be right at home with ranged physical dps.

Now i'll admit i skimmed over this thread. I personally find positionals both fun and frustrating. The frustration comes mostly from how lately bosses just spin around like crazy; they're massive or they decided to create a insta death zone in said areas you need to land your positional. I guess they're not planning to change that considering how they're buffing damage to skills when not landing positionals and reducing True North's cooldown.

now for the fun part. it makes melees have a certain flow to them and I enjoy that in the classes. I personally enjoy having to pay attention to mechanics while figuring out how to squeeze that sneaky positional. For some people that is rewarding.

IMO they should stay. I do agree however that we need better visibility regarding landing or missing our positionals.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

The reward is more damage though?

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Except that it's not. It's not a bonus if it's expected and planned around. As the game works right now, hitting positionals doesn't give you extra damage, missing them gives you reduced damage. That's the difference.

Without some other sort of mechanic to fill the void.. I don't think so, although in that same vein of logic I don't think they need to use them for melee either if for whatever reason they wanted to make a melee that doesn't (just give it something engaging).

By that I don't mean it needs to be some new sort of calculus lol, just that some jobs would probably feel a bit less flavorful if removed and nothing put back (at least for those who use the positionals, some people don't and wouldn't feel a difference).

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Except that it's not. It's not a bonus if it's expected and planned around. As the game works right now, hitting positionals doesn't give you extra damage, missing them gives you reduced damage. That's the difference.

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How would you make it a reward?

NO. Absolutely Not. I'm also hoping that the expansion, once again, widens the potency gap between hitting a positional and not. I really hope Square doesn't go the path of other MMOS - removing system after system, ability after ability, until the classes become empty husks.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Except that it's not. It's not a bonus if it's expected and planned around. As the game works right now, hitting positionals doesn't give you extra damage, missing them gives you reduced damage. That's the difference.

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It's like saying there's no reward for keeping your GCD going, but there's a punishment for pausing.

It's the same example actually. Waiting an extra second in your gcd makes you do less dps, but it's planned around you keeping the gcd going.

So do you want the game to play itself to fix that?

Please look forward to it in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

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Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Except that it's not. It's not a bonus if it's expected and planned around. As the game works right now, hitting positionals doesn't give you extra damage, missing them gives you reduced damage. That's the difference.

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That's a non-argument though, same as saying a glass is half empty or half full, both are right and wrong at the same time. From tooltip on skills though landing positional does give a bonus to dmg, however as a playerbase you could look at it as a potency penalty for not hitting it, It's an argument that can't be argued.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I'm not sure you understand what 'objective' means.

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Dunno about you, but I used in a context where it makes sense. As it is an objective fact that melee with less to keep track of would be objectively worse.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

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Oh no it's a mechanic that makes the game harder and rewards better play, better remove it so bad players can feel better about themselves!

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Originally Posted by Gumpy

Oh no it's a mechanic that makes the game harder and rewards better play, better remove it so bad players can feel better about themselves!

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I had a very bottled experience last night in Snek Boi Extreme that really shows why positionals matter. Our raid DPS was JUST on the cusp of clearing the fight to the point if we had 1-2 deaths we would've lost to the enrage. Seeing this, the DPS boost from trying harder to hit my positionals (and take some vuln stacks) was literally the difference between clearing or not. Under different circumstances where our raid DPS was a lot higher, you can argue it doesnt matter, but in certain group compositions its actually vital to success.

i purposely only stick to melee jobs because of positionals, I find everything else too boring as they don't keep me on my toes enough.

You could play other class if you dont like it.

Removing it will make these classes more boring to play as right now you have to do a lot of moving to make it working, and its not like they are underperforming in any way because of it, hell dragoon and monks are doing massive damage when they get to the back of the enemy.
Those classes are absolutely fine and their DPS is good, especially samurai is top 3 best dpsing class in the game according to fflogs.

Stop asking to make this game easier to play because you cant adjust to it or dont like it, you are asking to redo the class because you find it hard to execute mechanics and position yourself well in just one part of the content you play, thats absurd, how do you know the raids will always be like this and not different or easier in the future? Adjusting class to the content that will go away as a irrelevant, thats a recipe for a bad design right there.
Do you want this game to die off like WoW is now? They also deleted a lot of exclusive stuff from each class, and look how it hurt the game.
Following this logic I could also ask for enmity system being completely removed, because its just a struggle for me playing a tank, so why not? Whye mobs dont just focus on me when im standing still watching anime on the second window? gg

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Originally Posted by Gumpy

Dunno about you, but I used in a context where it makes sense. As it is an objective fact that melee with less to keep track of would be objectively worse.

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Pretty sure that's an opinion, not a fact.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

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That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS. Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

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IMO, that's why I think they reduced the penalty for missing your positional and why they reduced the CD for True North (LONG OVERDUE BTW). As for "it doesnt mesh well", I mean, thats really fight dependent but no fight so far has felt unfair in positionals. Even in o11s, you have time to hit positionals during starboard/larboard. I find o12s extremely punishing bc so many mechanics box you into these immovable pockets of safety....but I guess that's why its the toughest fight of the raid?