SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

The raiding community is barely 10% of the playerbase, if that. You being mad about this really doesn't matter.

(assuming you mean raiding community to be people doing savage and ultimates, which would be the only definition that makes sense)

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Blue Mages will also not be able to participate in dungeon content that is relevant, deep dungeon (either in a group or solo), or regular raids that are current. They will also find it extremely difficult to enjoy 24-man content that is outdated since they cannot queue for it and need to form a full 24-man party first. Because their level cap is increased with patches and may be kept permanently one expansion behind everyone else due to their design, blue mages will not even be able to enjoy story content

More people are getting burned by this than just the savage and ultimate raiders. The Blue Mage will have access to so little content that it was necessary to create special content just for them, the carnivale.

I joined these forums just to show my discontent for this direction for BLU. It ABSOLUTELY needs to be playable like every other class. Limited Jobs are a bad idea and a creative dead end waste of resources.

whats messed up is most raiders static, so once the blum lvl cap gets raised to 80 theres nothing preventing blum from raiding, its only when you DF a pug you cant raid

I'm going to have to disagree that this is the worst idea ever made in mmos, although I do think that the introduction was poorly handled. I feel they are limiting the job as they are so to see how players react and work with/against the concept. There are still a few too many unknowns to make a core opinion on whether or not this is being done badly and everyone was calling for something different. There are a lot of abilities to sift through, so starting off where they've finished parsing through the 1-50 abilities they can see what players like and don't like while they chose the abilities for 51-60 , 61-70, and eventually 71-80.



They may be always one tier behind current content. I don't like that idea, but it is a possibility. This is new territory for them and they are bringing it out in a controlled manner, so we can provide on whether or not it works. I like the concept so when BLU comes out I will play it and I will let the devs know then if I like it or not.

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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It would essentially be another RDM

Limited Jobs are a great idea because the dev team doesn't have to be so delicate with the balance of the job. While sure we might see certain BLU spells alter in potency or affect if they deem it to high for what they intended, the overall design allows them to make a job that isn't held to the same standards as the current jobs. A Limit Job, that plays different, has more flexibility but is limited in the content they are allowed to participate in.

All the dev team has to do when designing the job is go, which abilities look like fun, how strong should they be, and upon implementing them are they to strong for the overall BLU experience? There's also a nice adventure to be had discovering the new spells, and depending on the overall experience as they mentioned with PUP and BST, they can do something similar.

PUP could be a mix of finding dungeon loot on top of relying heavily on crafters to produce the parts they need for their puppet. They would be able to do this because of PUP being a limited job, they wouldn't have to think of how it's unfair that PUP has to rely so heavily on crafters when other jobs dont(Minus that whole accessory debacle).

Similar with BST it could rely heavily on Culinary/Alchemist for their needs in either using Jugs to call upon temporary beast to help them out or being able to actually capture and train their own beast with the potential addition of gear that captured best can wear made by leather/cloth/blacksmith/armor/carpenter and such.

I mean really, there's no way they're going to make the full playerbase happy with this. Players who wanted to main BLU no matter what form it took hate it now. Players who want the class exactly as-is (as described in other games) will be ticked off if they change BLU to be a caster reskin, or if they give BLU a simplified kit to take into party content. And it doesn't sound like they're any more inclined to work on overall balance to make it group-ready as-is than they are to change the fundamentals of Eureka, despite massive backlash.

Oh well, it's new, and different. I suppose now we'll see who wants "new", who wants "more of exactly what I have", and who wants "new as long as it fits exactly what I see in my head."

I'm indifferent, I'm just kind of entertained by the massive split in player approval right now. Not even Eureka had this many defenders come out of the woodwork. I'll be playing it solely for the AF. My FC mates who were looking forward to it are still looking forward to it and are, in fact, ecstatic.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage.

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I'm tired of people bringing this up whenever they try to adapt a job into XIV's gameplay style. We'd never have gotten Summoner, Bard, Dark Knight or Red Mage if the dev team insisted on translating the job into a system that it wouldn't work with.

People want a playable blue mage. By playable, they mean a job that uses enemy skills and is usable in party content. Nobody wanted a special job that is a literal translation of the job at the cost of being segregated from the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It would essentially be another RDM

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The Red Mage that was received with overwhelming praise for its design and approachable gameplay and the clever way in which it adapted the concept into XIV's gameplay systems?

The Red Mage that continues to be one of the most popular jobs in the entire game?

That Red Mage?

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Originally Posted by Zakon

The Red Mage that was received with overwhelming praise for its design and approachable gameplay and the clever way in which it adapted the concept into XIV's gameplay systems?

The Red Mage that continues to be one of the most popular jobs in the entire game?

That Red Mage?

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Yeah, lets just copy that.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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Move the BLU abilities to job quests, obtained over the course of the leveling process.
More job quests than any other job, but mostly having the objective of "Find unmentioned monster x in area y to capture ability z", have some story sprinkled in every 5 levels (like current job quests).
Duties could have a requirement of having the job quests completed up to that point (ie: queueing up for Baelsar's Wall would require the BLU to have completed all the job quests up to lvl 50).

As for cool and unbalanced moves? Allow those to be collected in the "Limited Job" kind of way, and only have them be useable in those scenarios (open world, the BLU-only instance, unsynced old content?).

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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Because I want to play the goddamn game with it. Not useless side content.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Yeah, lets just copy that.

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Red Mage doesn't play like any other job in the game. Why would you think that Blue Mage would be a slightly re-flavored version of something else?

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

Because I want to play the goddamn game with it. Not useless side content.

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Are crafter/gatherer classes useless side content?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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-You get to play a class using a cane as a weapon, some will like that aesthetic.
-You get to use monster abilities, some will like that aesthetic.
-You get unique leveling experience.
-You get unique skill system.
-You get unique solo content.

None of the reasons need to get in the way of group play either. I find game breaking cheat abilities utterly boring, I might get chuckle at first, but we're looking at an MMO where endgame and content at the level cap is the bulk of the experience. Cheating as a gimmick would get old so fast and completely lock you out from the majority of the relevant game content: dungeons, trials, extremes, savage, ultimate, deep dungeon, eureka. All you really have left is the limited solo content. I'd much rather take a job with the above unique points and aesthetics and have it available for all the game content rather than get a chuckle from breaking the game a couple of times. I realize there's a player type that enjoys cheating, modding, using third-party scripts and bots to gain an advantage, but I'm not one of those people.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Are crafter/gatherer classes useless side content?

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Quite a few people view endgame as the only game. Hence the number of threads we get asking for them to cut back on MSQ and speed up levelling times. They're here to raid with their friends.

I don't usually post here, but I logged in just for this. This Limited Job thing is a horrible idea. Making a job that can't do ANY current content and most of the older expansion content is idiotic. This concept of a "Limited Job" should have been shot down during the planning phase.

And the 10-minute volley of excuses that boiled down to "It's too hard to balance" was a load of crap. Blue Mages are known for a handful of abilities, and the team could have implemented them in a way so as to not to be unbalanced. It wouldn't be an exact copy of the abilities in previous titles, but few abilities are. Hell, in other offline FF installments, White Mages can't throw stones, Thunder isn't a DoT, and Red Mages can't hurl magical energy swords, but here we are!

It's ridiculous that this excuse is used with Blue Mage of all jobs. The job that only has a few abilities in common between installments, with the rest of the spells being totally unique to the game. Frog Drop, Gatling Gun, Magic Breath, Stone Breath, etc. SE could have made quite a few entirely new abilities and still called them Blue Magic.

And don't even get me started about being "faithful to flavor." Blue Mages of the past have learned spells by being hit, yes (and not even in XIV apparently!). But Quistis learned new spells by using items dropped from monsters. Quina learned by eating monsters. Kimahri used an ability on monsters. And no Blue Mage, EVER, to my knowledge, had an RNG-based "chance" of learning an ability (I never played XI, so please excuse me if I'm incorrect there). It's such an obvious hook to increase re-sub and re-grind old content.

The excuses as to why they couldn't implement it are, truly, a crock of shite. And before anyone comes in with "the fans would have complained if..." nonsense....yes, yes some would have. Just like any other class. But they would have at least been happy with a full-fledged job and accepted (and, frankly, most have expected beforehand) some compromise to fit the FFXIV system. The salt would have been a few pinches compared to the entire mine's worth SE is now getting.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

I'm tired of people bringing this up whenever they try to adapt a job into XIV's gameplay style. We'd never have gotten Summoner, Bard, Dark Knight or Red Mage if the dev team insisted on translating the job into a system that it wouldn't work with.

People want a playable blue mage. By playable, they mean a job that uses enemy skills and is usable in party content. Nobody wanted a special job that is a literal translation of the job at the cost of being segregated from the rest of the game.

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So you want a job, the uses enemy skills, but the enemy skills aren't unique because they have to fit into a rotation like every other class? Why even bother at that point? It would just be a carbon copy of RDM except you'd change RDM's skills in one that looked like enemy skills. You might as well make something brand new.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Are crafter/gatherer classes useless side content?

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No. Because it engages with the rest of the game and supports the economy which is an inherently social experience. They also aren't jobs. BLU is a solo job. It's existence is a contradiction and does nothing that a level 70 or 80 job can't already accomplish better by steamrolling irrelevant content.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Can someone explain to me why you would want Blue Mage if it can't be an actual Blue Mage. For it to "party ready", they'd have to strip all the mechanics of a Blue Mage and make you learn skills through normal class quests. The class would have to be balanced and would not be any different from any other mage class. You would not get the opportunity to learn all the cool moves you can learn now nor would you be able to bring a "cheat" class into older content.

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In almost every Final Fantasy Blue Mages have learned their skills with a different twist. For reference please read here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...ge#Appearances

I find it really confusing when people throw out "but you wouldn't be able to learn every monster skill! There would have to be arbitrary restrictions! It wouldn't be Blue Mage!" What "blue" magic meant already varied highly from FF to FF. I never recall being able to learn every skill from a monster, even every iconic skill - there has always been a curated list of what can and can't be learned even in a single player FF.

So, having restrictions on Blue Mage would not suddenly mean it's "not a Blue Mage". There have always been restrictions, again, even in single player FF games.

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

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Blue Mages are known for only a handful of abilities? Really? Blue Mage is a niche class. People are acting like they just did this to a class with actual history. It's a freaking joke to act like this is a horror show because they did to Blue Mage of all jobs! Gasp! The horror! The niche class that didn't appear until FFV and doesn't appear all that often is the one they do this to?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

So you want a job, the uses enemy skills, but the enemy skills aren't unique because they have to fit into a rotation like every other class? Why even bother at that point? It would just be a carbon copy of RDM except you'd change RDM's skills in one that looked like enemy skills. You might as well make something brand new.

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By this logic, why have more than 1 of every role type? Why do we need more tanks, healers, or DPS? Why don't we all just play the same three jobs?

It's a stupid question and you know it.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

So you want a job, the uses enemy skills, but the enemy skills aren't unique because they have to fit into a rotation like every other class? Why even bother at that point? It would just be a carbon copy of RDM except you'd change RDM's skills in one that looked like enemy skills. You might as well make something brand new.

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Bringing up RDM is just showing how they can make a fun and unique gameplay style out of a system that people thought would be unable to be adapted into the trinity, while also remaining true to the job's roots. It casts white and black magic, it double casts, it has a melee combo, it has heals in the form of powerful battle resses and the best heal any job has access to outside of literal healer jobs.

How can you look at Red Mage and think their only option would be to copy something that already exists? Why would Blue Mage suddenly use the exact Red Mage gameplay style?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Are crafter/gatherer classes useless side content?

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Crafter/Gatherer aren't fighting content. They barely are PvE content actualy if you consider they don't fight anything in the environnement and nobody expect them to be fighting anything because they are Disciple of the land/hand, unlike the blue mage who is a Disciple of magic like the Back and red mage or the summoner but unable to be played in anything relevant those 3 others DoM are able to participate at will.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Blue Mages are known for only a handful of abilities? Really? Blue Mage is a niche class. People are acting like they just did this to a class with actual history. It's a freaking joke to act like this is a horror show because they did to Blue Mage of all jobs! Gasp! The horror! The niche class that didn't appear until FFV and doesn't appear all that often is the one they do this to?

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Yes, the job that's been around for 26 years actually does have a history.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

Why would Blue Mage suddenly use the exact Red Mage gameplay style?

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Why don't you explain to me how it would be different? How could they adapt BLU to be different from RDM?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

So you want a job, the uses enemy skills, but the enemy skills aren't unique because they have to fit into a rotation like every other class?

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The skills can still be unique, and it is possible for them to figure out some way of allowing you to use abilities in different orders. For example, imagine BLU, with its ability to learn tons of skills but only bring a limited number, actually changing what skills they bring based on the fight and party composition. Have a movement-heavy boss and a physical-heavy group? Bring skills A, B, and C. Movement but have a mage buddy? A, B, D. Boss with an add phase and physical? A, E, C. Adds with a mage? A, E, D. Boss you have to stand way back from, physical? A, L, C... you get the idea. Would it be tough to balance? Probably. Would it be cool to have a job that actually has variety in how it prepares for a fight and deals with fights? Absolutely!

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Why even bother at that point? It would just be a carbon copy of RDM except you'd change RDM's skills in one that looked like enemy skills.

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I mean, isn't Ninja just Monk with reskinned skills? They both hit bosses in melee, use a buff. Heck so is Samurai. And Summoner is clearly just Black Mage but reskinned -- you cast SPELLS! C'mon SE, don't be lazy, why did you guys make AST exactly like White Mage but with card-like animations instead of magic?!

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You might as well make something brand new.

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Like Summoner! Oh man that could never work, imagine a job that summons primals... I mean, Odin's Zantetsuken would insta-kill any boss, and it's not like they couldn't implement Summoner without one of the most iconic summons in FF history!

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

Yes, the job that's been around for 26 years actually does have a history.

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Just because something is old doesn't mean it has a lot of history. If you've only been introduced a handful of times then unless there's a lot of people who are major fans of FFV(which you can see is not the case because people are whining at the AF) then it's really not a popular class.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Just because something is old doesn't mean it has a lot of history. If you've only been introduced a handful of times then unless there's a lot of people who are major fans of FFV(which you can see is not the case because people are whining at the AF) then it's really not a popular class.

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So unpopular, in fact, that some of the hottest topics on both the official forums and the ffxiv reddit are overwhelmingly people expressing their disapproval and/or disappointment about something they've been looking forward to for years. Yup. No interest at all. Nothing to see here.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Why don't you explain to me how it would be different? How could they adapt BLU to be different from RDM?

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First of all, while being blue magic they are monster move, with a lot of variation.

They can use the elemental weakness as a mecanic, you use a fire element spell to grow up a debuff on the monster and consume it with a wind spell for additonal damage per exemple, force to rotate between different duality whith cooldown on the "stack consumer".

They can use the physical or magic monster skill changing wich spell to choose and what rotation to use for any monster who use mainly magic or physical or even use the template of weakness they actualy choose for the masks carnival to force the mage to use a definite set of spell that exploit their weakness to be efficient with a base toolkit of jack of all trade skill.

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

So unpopular, in fact, that some of the hottest topics on both the official forums and the ffxiv reddit are overwhelmingly people expressing their disapproval and/or disappointment about something they've been looking forward to for years. Yup. No interest at all. Nothing to see here.

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Just lol that you think this is overwhelming. This is nothing compared to the eureka hate.

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

So unpopular, in fact, that some of the hottest topics on both the official forums and the ffxiv reddit are overwhelmingly people expressing their disapproval and/or disappointment about something they've been looking forward to for years. Yup. No interest at all. Nothing to see here.

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Yes, I remember all the talk about BLU being the most requested class for HW or ARR. Oh wait, it only started getting requested after all the other classes got added and it's still nowhere as requested as DNC.

I don't post often but this entire thing just does not sit well with me. I want to be a Blue Mage. I want to go out and learn my spells. That part is awesome and I'm thankful they are letting us do that. But what's the point? Getting 50 won't take long. Learning all the spells will realistically take a week or two tops, and then what? I can't be a Blue Mage anymore because there's no content. I'm locked out of content. Why punish people for playing a Blue Mage?

If I don't have all my spells I think people should absolutely kick me out of their group. Put some sort of lockout or restriction so you can't join until you learn your spells. Anything!

My spells are too OP? Nerf them when fighting boss mobs, or better yet, balance them when in duties. We wanted this job. A JOB. Not a part-time job, a real job we can main. A job we can actually do things with. The game has 5 years worth of content, and you are locking us out of 4/5 of it.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

First of all, while being blue magic they are monster move, with a lot of variation.

They can use the elemental weakness as a mecanic, you use a fire element spell to grow up a debuff on the monster and consume it with a wind spell for additonal damage per exemple, force to rotate between different duality whith cooldown on the "stack consumer".

They can use the physical or magic monster skill changing wich spell to choose and what rotation to use for any monster who use mainly magic or physical or even use the template of weakness they actualy choose for the masks carnival to force the mage to use a definite set of spell that exploit their weakness to be efficient with a base toolkit of jack of all trade skill.

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So you're actually suggesting that they make it so that damage is calculated different from every other class in all content? The change of damage calculation works in the Carnival because it's a separate content system. You're suggesting they bring that to the entire game AND apply it only to BLU. So every other class is going to be damaging the mob in one way while BLU handles it a different way? I can't even imagine that SE can do that with this mess of a game.

Yeah because piercing, slashing, blunt & magic damage aren't a thing in FFXIV. Its funny because they could even adjust their blue spell according to his teamate to benefit from their debuff depending on what type of damage the spell do.

Even elemental damage was a thing at start and Eureka could be usefull for a change with his elemental system as a base.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Yeah because piercing, slashing, blunt & magic damage aren't a thing in FFXIV. Its funny because they could even adjust their blue spell according to his teamate to benefit from their debuff depending on what type of damage the spell do.

Even elemental damage was a thing at start.

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You mean all those things that people have been whining to get rid of for years because "it doesn't make my class viable", lol.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Just lol that you think this is overwhelming. This is nothing compared to the eureka hate.

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To be fair, this is a lot more interesting than the Eureka hate. It's garnering responses much more quickly, and there are a ton of different viewpoints coming out of the woodwork. Eureka was maybe 90% hate, 7% meh, and 3% love. This is more like... 45% hate, 30% love, 8% 'just balance it already', 6% 'wait and see', 6% 'they'll cave no matter what they said', and 5% popcorn.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

You mean all those things that people have been whining to get rid of for years because "it doesn't make my class viable", lol.

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Yes, those things. What, do you want BLU to not be unique? Just some carbon-copy job that has no new mechanics? Shame on you!

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Just lol that you think this is overwhelming. This is nothing compared to the eureka hate.

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I wouldn't know. I really don't post here and I just skipped over Eureka discussions entirely, as I was never interested.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Yes, I remember all the talk about BLU being the most requested class for HW or ARR. Oh wait, it only started getting requested after all the other classes got added and it's still nowhere as requested as DNC.

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Funnily enough, I also remember the bolded. RDM, SAM, BLU, and DNC were easily the four most requested classes leading into Heavensward and Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Yes, those things. What, do you want BLU to not be unique? Just some carbon-copy job that has no new mechanics? Shame on you!

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I don't know if this is a serious comment or not, but you can't just apply elemental damage to all monsters for one class. They removed it from the game when 2.0 came out. If you say that it's back in and then try to explain that it only work for BLU, I'm sure people will hop right on BLM and go "FINALLY, ICE MAGE IS THE META AGAINST THIS ICE MONSTER".