Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...

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Originally Posted by Awha

It is not fair, but it is acceptable since they were part of the party.

I do understand your position

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If you think it's acceptable then you do not understand my position.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Like, the problem with the weekly lockout without "need" is that players who actually want it, will lose a roll to players who maybe don't even play that job. On all other raids that do not have the lockout, you can no reason not to greed everything you want, because someone will certainly want it, even for seals/desynth. The developers should have removed being able to turn in for seals/desynth from the alliance raid gear along with the greed-only change so that players only greed on gear they want to wear or use for glamour. Or alternatively, allow like-for-like trades of gear via a NPC so that you only need to win any gear for that slot to exchange it for the gear you want.

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As I mentioned before it is not a perfect system and SE could have gone about it better, but I do understand the intention behind the change and I appreciate the effort, as you mentioned they could have done about it differently and personally I have suggested a gear trade npc in another thread, that would be my perfect ideal system. I will take the good with the bad when it comes to the change, I would like adjustments to be made and I am sure with time adjustments will be made to the system. Way I see both systems screw over a group of players I am simply in favor of this system since in this system everyone has a equal shot at walking away with something.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If you think it's acceptable then you do not understand my position.

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My English is not that great, but I was under the impression that fair and acceptable do not necessarily mean the same thing. I do agree that it is unfair that someone who does next to nothing has the chance to roll on something, but can we really say that within the current system it is not acceptable for them to roll being as they were part of the group and were given a chance to roll by the system?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Trolls are going to pretend to be gracious enough to pass if certain loot drops that someone else nicely asked for...and then roll on it because they'll think it's funny to make someone else panic or become angry.

Saying you won't roll on something in an alliance raid and doing the opposite is not likely to be a reportable offense.

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It is, though. Once you agree to it in /party, you're bound to it. You are of course free not to say anything at all, or to say that you're going to roll on things anyway. But people can be (and have been) punished for agreeing to particular loot distribution requests and then reneging later when the loot drops.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I'll let you in on a secret. Some people don't know how to play their mains.

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This greed only system has not made runs smoother. I've had more stupid people in Ridorana than ever before because now people are just doing whatever they want because they can roll on whatever they want. I've eaten tank busters as a RDM WITH Diversion on in a couple of those bosses because people who just want fast queue as tanks go in and sit on their thumbs the whole time.

Also, I have seen an influx of people sitting on loot come last boss, refusing to roll until the timer runs out. They want people to get frustrated and leave so they have a better chance of winning. I am guilty of this as well - I did Void Ark on NIN for the top and it dropped and I rolled a 98. At least 5 other people made me wait out the timer (hey, I can do homework while I wait) because THEY wanted it too. It's all and all a super obnoxious system that is just causing vitriol in parties.

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Originally Posted by Awha

but can we really say that within the current system it is not acceptable for them to roll being as they were part of the group and were given a chance to roll by the system?

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I'm not saying it is unacceptable for them to roll. I am saying it is unacceptable for loot to be equal priority for everyone including people who aren't playing that role. It rewards laziness and dumb luck. It doesn't reward a player for actually trying to play the role they want gear for.

Furthermore without being able to roll need I can't even be nice about gear unless someone alerts me in chat that they need it. When need was still around I could roll greed on something not for my role or for glam without taking away loot from someone who actually needs it for their current role. Now I can't. Now I have to potentially be the ***hole who took someone else's gear because we can only roll greed or pass.

Whomp whomp.

Saw a post on Reddit I thought it would be useful here as well. Coverage of yesterday's Primal stream mentions that Yoshi-P said they are monitoring reactions to Greed Only for another week before making a decision.


http://nekokuma.com/post-85095/

Comments include :

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名無しのスノーマン 2018/06/01(金) 21:25:06 ID：b5dd39228
なんで待つ必要があるんですかねぇ？

フォーラム見てもほぼ反対しかされてないだろ！

Nameless snowman 2018/06/01 (Fri) 21: 25: 06 ID: b5dd39228
Why do I have to wait?

Even if you look at the forum it is almost nothing but opposition!

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名無しのスノーマン 2018/06/02(土) 11:15:40 ID：cb31ff484
1週間経てば意見が変わると思ってんのか？
諦めてロット率上がるの待ってるんだじぇねーよ卑怯者が

Nameless snowman 2018/06/02 (Sat) 11: 15: 40 ID: cb31ff484
Do you think that opinion will change over a week?
I give up and wait for the lot rate to rise. Janey, a coward

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And a bunch of other people talking about how "the voice of the forum is the voice of the minority" despite seeing many, MANY instances in game where people were complaining.

Google Translation is not perfect, but dang... they don't seem happy with the Greed Only raids. If I'm interpreting it right.

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Originally Posted by Seniade

The argument of giving priority back to the players that can equip it is personal spite for the player who won gear when not on a class that could currently equip it.

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It really isn't, though?

You: I don't want that person to win that item. (though that can still happen even under the new system!)
me: I want to win that item (because it is an upgrade for me).

Can you still lose the item on Need rolls? Yes, but at least then we have gotten to where they can't logically limit it more. Your argument is fueled by your feelings for other people while most people who want the Need button back want it for practicality's sake cuz they keep losing gear that's an immediate upgrade for them.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers should have removed being able to turn in for seals/desynth from the alliance raid gear along with the greed-only change so that players only greed on gear they want to wear or use for glamour.

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I know glamour is the "true endgame" but I fail to see why it should take precedence over desynth. It's hard enough to level it up in some tiers without taking away raid gear. It's already locked for the next couple of weeks, no need to make that restriction harder.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I know glamour is the "true endgame" but I fail to see why it should take precedence over desynth. It's hard enough to level it up in some tiers without taking away raid gear. It's already locked for the next couple of weeks, no need to make that restriction harder.

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because any desynth skill up that conflicts with glamour should have other options. glamour only has one maybe two options usually.

i don't really mine Greed only on Ridorana (or whatever has the weekly lockout), i think it's really dumb that it's on the ones without lockout and you can free roll everything.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm not saying it is unacceptable for them to roll. I am saying it is unacceptable for loot to be equal priority for everyone including people who aren't playing that role. It rewards laziness and dumb luck. It doesn't reward a player for actually trying to play the role they want gear for.

Furthermore without being able to roll need I can't even be nice about gear unless someone alerts me in chat that they need it. When need was still around I could roll greed on something not for my role or for glam without taking away loot from someone who actually needs it for their current role. Now I can't. Now I have to potentially be the ***hole who took someone else's gear because we can only roll greed or pass.

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In my eyes everyone in group should have equal priority since it is the effort of the group that allows for the gear to be obtained. Sure you could feel that your efforts on the job inherently holds more value simply because the piece of gear that dropped aligns with the role you choose. For me that simply does not make sense, and seems highly unfair since that gear that dropped would not have been up for grabs without the group. Sure in some extreme cases you have players that want to be carried, but it inherently does not promote laziness, just a byproduct of treating the group more fairly on a larger level. Hope that makes sense.

I really only have one question: what problem did this change solve?

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Originally Posted by Awha

In my eyes everyone in group should have equal priority since it is the effort of the group that allows for the gear to be obtained. Sure you could feel that your efforts on the job inherently holds more value simply because the piece of gear that dropped aligns with the role you choose. For me that simply does not make sense, and seems highly unfair since that gear that dropped would not have been up for grabs without the group. Sure in some extreme cases you have players that want to be carried, but it inherently does not promote laziness, just a byproduct of treating the group more fairly on a larger level. Hope that makes sense.

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Fairness and equality are not the same thing, this new system treats everyone equally but not necessarily fairly. I saw a drg get outrolled on a chestpiece by a person who didn't even have lancer unlocked, that is not fair. The gear aligning with the role you chose is a less equal but more fair system, a tank gets first shot at tank gear, a healer gets first shot at healer gear. A bard winning a tank piece when a tank inside the group, tanking for that bard needs it and wanted it, is unfair.

Most of all, nothing was wrong with the old system nor was it complained about. This change was unwanted and unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I really only have one question: what problem did this change solve?

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Would not say this change solves a problem nor would I think reverting it would solve a problem. Since the problem is based on the perception of those that it has effected. For example I know my view is not popular, but I am of the mindset that everyone in a group should have equal chance at rolling on a item and roles inherently should not grant priority. So this change makes head way towards that ideal personally, while if you feel otherwise the change hinders their ideal which it does. While I would like for SE to expand on this system I highly doubt it will stay in place for much longer since the majority of players seem to dislike the change which is understandable.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

Fairness and equality are not the same thing, this new system treats everyone equally but not necessarily fairly. I saw a drg get outrolled on a chestpiece by a person who didn't even have lancer unlocked, that is not fair. The gear aligning with the role you chose is a less equal but more fair system, a tank gets first shot at tank gear, a healer gets first shot at healer gear. A bard winning a tank piece when a tank inside the group, tanking for that bard needs it and wanted it, is unfair.

Most of all, nothing was wrong with the old system nor was it complained about. This change was unwanted and unnecessary.

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You are right fairness and equality are the not the same, and that is why I said to me personally seems unfair. Though outside of that I have said overall the change puts everyone on a equal playing field which overall in my view is better then granting priority to roles / jobs. I rather have everyone overall be on equal footing then have some players have what I feel is an unfair priority. SE tried something new, and I personally like the new direction, though as I said before I doubt i t will stay in place for long since most people seem to dislike the change. As I said before to me having a equal system trumps having a so called fair one.

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Originally Posted by Awha

In my eyes everyone in group should have equal priority since it is the effort of the group that allows for the gear to be obtained.

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It seems that to you the act of simply turning up makes a player who may not have a tank unlocked be just as deserving for tank gear as an actual tank.

That you find this to be logical, acceptable or fair is impressively baffling.

By the way we already get participation loot, and they're called tomestones. It's not like everyone always walked away empty-handed before need rolls were removed.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It seems that to you the act of simply turning up makes a player who may not have a tank unlocked be just as deserving for tank gear as an actual tank.

That you find this to be logical, acceptable or fair is impressively baffling.

By the way we already get participation loot, and they're called tomestones. It's not like everyone always walked away empty-handed before need rolls were removed.

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Might be baffling, but I am also baffled by how some feel simply because a drop matches with ones role they should be granted priority over the group. Granted I am an odd one that for the most part if my co tank was okay with it I would simply mention everyone should roll greed. I mean if my co tank was not okay not going to fight them over it if they roll need awesome. Just does not sit right with me that despite the labor of the group certain people get a priority due to roles matching up. Please do not get me wrong when I lost a piece of gear to a player that was dead most the time I did get tilted, but overall I like the change. Another issues I do not run 24's that often so that might also paint my bias. Overall yeah I tend to be the type of person that values equability over everything else when it is possible.

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Originally Posted by Awha

but I am also baffled by how some feel simply because a drop matches with ones role they should be granted priority over the group.

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You don't know why someone running WHM in those raids should have priority over someone who has no healers at all? Really?
You make it sound like the Need roll kept people from getting gear period, but they had their own Need roll, the Greed roll was there, and as mentioned before you got tomestones for your trouble so you got an upgrade at the end regardless.
You know what was a much worse offender when it came to keeping people from their loot? RNG. Two weeks of running Weeping City non-stop before I even saw the caster top drop. Le sigh.

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Another issues I do not run 24's that often so that might also paint my bias.

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If it doesn't affect you, please stop telling the people hurt by this change to accept it.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Might be baffling, but I am also baffled by how some feel simply because a drop matches with ones role they should be granted priority over the group.

Just does not sit right with me that despite the labor of the group certain people get a priority due to roles matching up.

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You can't be serious.

It doesn't sit right with you if gear is more likely to go to a player who can get the best use of it?

It appears you like equality to the point of being impractical. Good god I hope for other players out there that you never lead a raid team. Players would be watching their BiS go to the wrong classes because of your blind equality.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

If it doesn't affect you, please stop telling the people hurt by this change to accept it.

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I do not think I have ever mentioned that people should accept the change (if I did it you felt I have implied such I apologize) all I have been saying is that I do not understand why role / job should grant priority in the sense of being treated equally. I can see how it is unfair, but fairness is kind of weird since in my eyes the current system is more fair because it puts everyone on a equal playing field, and clearly many do not. Which is fine, but I do not think I have ever mentioned people should blindly accept what they do not approve of. I agree I dislike RNG with a passion, and wish it was not a factor but I do understand how that is a necessary evil when the game revolves around vertical progression.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You can't be serious.

It doesn't sit right with you if gear is more likely to go to a player who can get the best use of it?

It appears you like equality to the point of being impractical. Good god I hope for other players out there that you never lead a raid team. Players would be watching their BiS go to the wrong classes because of your blind equality.

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Sorry I really do not see how a job / role inherently grants priority over another. I do understand where the other side is coming from though, I just do not agree with it. Granted my view point is based on the wishful thinking that SE will in the future add an npc that allows for gear-to-gear trade. That is wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Would not say this change solves a problem nor would I think reverting it would solve a problem.

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If there was no problem they should not have changed it. Your "ideal" is all well and good, but the fact is that no other content handles loot rolls this way -- and there are a number of good reasons for that. In deviating from the way people generally expect the game to work (because that's how the game has worked in all content up to that point), they really should have offered a compelling rationale. No such rationale has been articulated, to my knowledge, by any party.

Perhaps the reasoning is "it makes it easier to gear off-Jobs". Well, maybe, but we're talking about a raid with a weekly loot lockout. (And besides, do we really want to start giving people gear for Jobs which they aren't earning by playing that Job?) The only other thing I can come up with is that they're trying to force people who want gear from Lighthouse to have to run it more to get what they want from it. That's an odd route to take for second-rate gear that's supposed to help players "catch up" (and almost comical given the absurdities they've unleashed with their failure to implement hard or soft enrages on the bosses in there).

It just makes no sense, from any angle.

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Originally Posted by Awha

snip

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Equal =\= fair, as been explained to you before. And if you really don't see what's wrong with giving the same rolling rights to someone who mains a job, and someone who doesn't even have the job unlocked... well. Not much more to say, is there?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Equal =\= fair, as been explained to you before. And if you really don't see what's wrong with giving the same rolling rights to someone who mains a job, and someone who doesn't even have the job unlocked... well. Not much more to say, is there?

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I have never said that fair and equal are the same. I have said that in eyes this current system is more fair then what we had before simply because I do not agree with the concept of granting certain players within a group priority at the reward that was earned by the collective simply because they happened to be the right role / job. Just as you clearly feel differently. What I have said is that overall the current system puts everyone on equal footing. Sorry as I said English is not my native tongue. When brought up how I thought the current system is fair in my eyes was to show how fairness can is based off ones opinion and perspective. Yet as you have mentioned in other posts this new system is overall more equal on an individual level, and equality when it is possible is a priority to me, even if he screws over some. Since either way both systems have the potential to screw someone over.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

If there was no problem they should not have changed it. Your "ideal" is all well and good, but the fact is that no other content handles loot rolls this way -- and there are a number of good reasons for that. In deviating from the way people generally expect the game to work (because that's how the game has worked in all content up to that point), they really should have offered a compelling rationale. No such rationale has been articulated, to my knowledge, by any party.

Perhaps the reasoning is "it makes it easier to gear off-Jobs". Well, maybe, but we're talking about a raid with a weekly loot lockout. (And besides, do we really want to start giving people gear for Jobs which they aren't earning by playing that Job?) The only other thing I can come up with is that they're trying to force people who want gear from Lighthouse to have to run it more to get what they want from it. That's an odd route to take for second-rate gear that's supposed to help players "catch up" (and almost comical given the absurdities they've unleashed with their failure to implement hard or soft enrages on the bosses in there).

It just makes no sense, from any angle.

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You are right if things went back to old system I would not lose sleep over the change, nor did I ever really expect them to make such a change since it is so far out the norm for how things have been handled in the past. It was a pleasant surprise when they did announce the change, since frankly I do not think many really requested the change even on the JP side it seemed like it was not a very popular idea. This system change is 100% outside the norm and one I do not expect to last very long. In the end I do support the change since never really understood the concept behind granting individuals priority over the group. Granted I dislike RNG, but if things have to be RNG this is why I am more in favor of a token based system but that is not all that important for the topic at hand. Though I do understand why many are not a huge fan of the change either.

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Originally Posted by Awha

in my eyes the current system is more fair

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There is nothing "fair" about someone getting gear for a Job they haven't even leveled to 7 over someone for whom that Job is the only one that they've leveled to 70. That's a rather perverse notion of "equity", which conveniently erases the labors of the players in question. It runs counter to the underlying, egalitarian principle of a sub-based MMO: that you achieve things and earn rewards consummate with the time and effort you put in. Lifting a piece of tank gear from the hands of a tank who genuinely needs or wants it when I haven't bothered to level a tank Job, couldn't be bothered to queue as a tank, and don't plan to do either of those things in the future is not a "level playing field". These buttons are appropriately labeled "Greed" and "Need". Your argument seems to be "Greed Is Good", which is not true at all -- particularly in a community developed around team-based content.

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Originally Posted by Awha

ISorry I really do not see how a job / role inherently grants priority over another.

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So you can't see why a tank should get tank loot instead of a healer or dps?

You must be trolling. This is too ridiculous to be true.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

There is nothing "fair" about someone getting gear for a Job they haven't even leveled to 7 over someone for whom that Job is the only one that they've leveled to 70. That's a rather perverse notion of "equity", which conveniently erases the labors of the players in question. It runs counter to the underlying, egalitarian principle of a sub-based MMO: that you achieve things and earn rewards consummate with the time and effort you put in. Lifting a piece of tank gear from the hands of a tank who genuinely needs or wants it when I haven't bothered to level a tank Job, couldn't be bothered to queue as a tank, and don't plan to do either of those things in the future is not a "level playing field". These buttons are appropriately labeled "Greed" and "Need". Your argument seems to be "Greed Is Good", which is not true at all -- particularly in a community developed around team-based content.

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How is that not putting each member in the same situation and granting them an equal chance at walking away with piece gear they want for whatever reason, be it for glam, upgrade, desynth, comms, or sitting in the persons inventory. If every player put forth the effort to clear the encounter why shouldn't they be granted equal roll on what dropped from said encounter? Let us be fair I do get salty when I lose a roll but I will never say the item is something I "need" sure it would be nice to have but it is not something I absolutely need. Since it was a team effort, so the team should have equal chance at getting what drops the reason behind why they want the item is beside the point. I know my stance is odd, but if it took a group to earn the reward the group should all have a chance to roll on reward. I am in the camp that everything we strive for in FFXIV is greed based. I want to have BiS, I want the upgrade, I want the glam, etc . . . I never thought of it as I need this BiS, I need upgrade, I need this glam. Though I do see why players think along those lines that that is okay.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So you can't see why a tank should get tank loot instead of a healer or dps?

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I do get where you are coming from I was upset when I lost a piece of tank gear to a player that spent more time dead then alive. In my eyes they were still present for the kill and since we did not remove the player from the group they were entitled to the gear just as much as everyone else even if it pained me to see the piece of gear go to that player. Please understand I do not feel the current or even the previous system were perfect in anyway and I do understand how both have the potential to screw over players, and I will agree that the new system has greater chance to screw over players. Though I do feel this system would make more sense if it worked on a token based system and allowed the player who one the token to trade it in for the piece of gear the want. Me personally cannot see how role / job inherently should grant someone priority over the group itself.

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Originally Posted by Awha

. Me personally cannot see how role / job inherently should grant someone priority over the group itself.

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It's funny you talk about the group when the new system benefits individuals a lot more.
What benefits the group? Any job rolling Need on an upgrade in the first chest of the run, equipping it, and thus performing better for the rest of the run. Even if they got the item from the last chest, it means they have their upgrade for the next instance they'll run and can perform better still.
What does not, in fact, benefit the group? Someone who can't equip the gear winning it instead of someone who actually needs it, forcing them to run with sub-optimal gear the rest of the raid.

The assumption is that because you can greed, you'd be running on your main class, but as been covered at length before that is both wrong and irrelevant.
1. People will not run on their mains if they don't want to, and no greed rule is going to change that. So we're still going to see under-geared people in there.
2.. A lot of people don't have their mains geared up that much and rely on these raids to actually improve their gear. Therefore the dev team's assumption is completely detached from reality.

If they want people to go in with better gear the solution isn't Greed-Only, it's to raise the minimum ilvl, alternatively tune the content easier (please don't).

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It's funny you talk about the group when the new system benefits individuals a lot more. What benefits the group? Any job rolling Need on an upgrade in the first chest of the run, equipping it, and thus performing better for the rest of the run. Even if they got the item from the last chest, it means they have their upgrade for the next instance they'll run and can perform better still.
What does not, in fact, benefit the group? Someone who can't equip the gear winning it instead of someone who actually needs it, forcing them to run with sub-optimal gear the rest of the raid.

The assumption is that because you can greed, you'd be running on your main class, but as been covered at length before that is both wrong and irrelevant.
1. People will not run on their mains if they don't want to, and no greed rule is going to change that. So we're still going to see under-geared people in there.
2.. A lot of people don't have their mains geared up that much and rely on these raids to actually improve their gear. Therefore the dev team's assumption is completely detached from reality.

If they want people to go in with better gear the solution isn't Greed-Only, it's to raise the minimum ilvl, alternatively tune the content easier (please don't).

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I feel it benefits the group in the sense that everyone within the group that helped clear the encounter has equal opportunity at what has dropped. On a individual level I have admitted it has the potential the screw over more players. Sure an item may not go to a player that could use it in that moment, but if the encounter can be cleared as is, should the rest of the group not be allowed equal opportunity at the item simply because it is an upgrade for another player? I just have a hard time figuring out how we as players can determine objectively that ones reasons for wanting something trumps another. I mean I guess you could say if that person's gear was at the point that it was hindrance to the group and the drop in question would alleviate that then yes I can see how that would be an overall net gain for the group. To that I would ask why is that person doing the content with such bad gear if one upgrade makes up such large difference for the rest of the run.

Wish I could articulate my point better, since I figured for a lot of people my position is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I feel it benefits the group in the sense that everyone within the group that helped clear the encounter has equal opportunity at what has dropped.

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Loot and scoot. Another issue that was there before this change, but at least then the dps who wanted to roll on that healer piece couldn't because the healers could Need on it. Now they can't.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Loot and scoot. Another issue that was there before this change, but at least then the dps who wanted to roll on that healer piece couldn't because the healers could Need on it. Now they can't.

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I am sorry Billy, I get where you are coming from it, but I just cannot see how granting one player within a group priority over giving everyone an equal opportunity at what has dropped due the collective effort of the group is a bad thing. I understand that I am sure many players have been negatively impacted by this change for every negative outcome I am sure someone in this game has had a positive one due to the change. If I look at it from you perspective I could see how one would feel slighted by the change. For lack of better words it is hard for me to accept another desire at something that has dropped over another. Sure the item might be an upgrade, but would that slight upgrade provide such a huge boon to the groups effectiveness that it should granted priority over everyone else in the group? It is hard for me to example but I simply cannot come to terms with that notion. I guess it comes down to I do not believe in the concept of "need" and everything is want based for me when it comes to rewards. People will make their case as to why they feel their want has more value for another, but it is just hard for me to see the difference between need and want when it comes to a video game.

I am sure in the end though the point that the majority in this thread have made will not fall of deaf ears that this change will be reverted.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It really isn't, though?

You: I don't want that person to win that item. (though that can still happen even under the new system!)
me: I want to win that item (because it is an upgrade for me).

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That's not my argument at all. I'm saying I'd rather have someone run the raid on a job they're comfortable with and maybe get an upgrade/glamour for an alt job rather than run a job they aren't as comfortable with just to stack the odds in their favor. True it's not guaranteed that the player is any good on their main, but that was the same even with the need system.

Not arguing necessarily at you, but some aren't complaining so much about "I want this item as an upgrade" but instead "I don't want that other player to win because they aren't on the appropriate job."

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Originally Posted by Seniade

This was worse with the old system: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...90#post4019190
I quite frequently saw players horribly under-geared using accessories to bypass the min item level, that didn't know how to play their alt class, just to skew the gear rolls in their favor.

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And now they can do the exact same thing but roll on gear that someone that does great for the party would need and win it thus take it away from someone that did their job and that needed it.

Also people should not forget that you could have still updated your other jobs with the old system. If no certain DD was in the group, anyone could greed on it, and if the healers or the tank did not need the item in any way they could pass on it and someone else could get it for the job. But at least it gave those that go into this with certain jobs the first chance to roll on it.

Now its just: Hopefully none of the other 7 people roll on the tank/healer/DD pieces that I need and hopefully I get anything out of this at all. And honestly the tank and healer pieces are probably the most wanted ones next to those for glamour. So all the tanks and healers that are running it now will never have the safety of the old system, where they could at least now that they got the item with a 100 or 50 % chance if it finally drops.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I just cannot see how granting one player within a group priority over giving everyone an equal opportunity at what has dropped due the collective effort of the group is a bad thing.

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Because it removes control away from players and makes everyone entirely dependent on multiple layers of RNG. If they wanted a fully equal opportunity system, adopt a token system so people aren't forced to not only run Ridorana several times, but run it several more when something like the OP depicted happens.

What concerns me is if they adopted this system in other content. Twelve help us all if Savage had Greed only rules. If you ever want to kill a pug scene...

Kinda glad, at least for tanks, the substats are lackluster and the skin looks like crap.

Not really here to argue just trying to understand at this point. So more less if player is the right role / job despite their reasoning for rolling need either it be for an upgrade, FC hand in, or glam they should be granted priority over the rest of the group because they happened to queue up as said roll and or job?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because it removes control away from players and makes everyone entirely dependent on multiple layers of RNG. If they wanted a fully equal opportunity system, adopt a token system so people aren't forced to not only run Ridorana several times, but run it several more when something like the OP depicted happens.

What concerns me is if they adopted this system in other content. Twelve help us all if Savage had Greed only rules. If you ever want to kill a pug scene...

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I have mentioned before I do wish they would go with a token based system or some trade in system then this all greed thing would work out. I will agree it is not a perfect system, and it does remove control from the players and puts everyone in the same RNG boat which in my eyes beats having other players be granted priority simply for happening to be the right job / role. Either way I do agree a token based system would be the ideal, but this current system is still far more of an equal opportunity system then what we had before. You are 100% right if this system went into savage as is it would kill the PuG scene, this greed all system does give me hope of them switching to a token based loot system come 5.0 a lala can dream right.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I am sorry Billy, I get where you are coming from

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Sorry but to be blunt you really don't.

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Originally Posted by Awha

For lack of better words it is hard for me to accept another desire at something that has dropped over another. Sure the item might be an upgrade, but would that slight upgrade provide such a huge boon to the groups effectiveness that it should granted priority over everyone else in the group? It is hard for me to example but I simply cannot come to terms with that notion.

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Why are you claiming that alliance loot is a slight upgrade? For some players it's a massive upgrade. You need 335 ilvl to enter Ridorana but it drops 360 loot. That's a massive jump in ilvls. 25 ilvl gain is crazy high.

Even at ilvl 350 the 360 gear can be a huge upgrade if the 360 version has better itemisation than the 350.

Not all the tomestone gear is great for every class. Someone replacing 360 tomestone gear with 360 Ridorana gear can have the same effect as increasing ilvl if their class is very reliant on some stats and gets very little benefit from others.

Higher ilvl doesn't always mean better gear. I replaced my 370 boots with 360 from Ridorana because the huge chunk of crit I gained far outweighed the minor hp and mind gain from the 370.

I think you fail to see how giving priority for gear is fair because you don't know how combat stats work. Alliance gear isn't as insignificant as you think.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Sorry but to be blunt you really don't.



Why are you claiming that alliance loot is a slight upgrade? For some players it's a massive upgrade. You need 335 ilvl to enter Ridorana but it drops 360 loot. That's a massive jump in ilvls. 25 ilvl gain is crazy high.

Even at ilvl 350 the 360 gear can be a huge upgrade if the 360 version has better itemisation than the 350.

Not all the tomestone gear is great for every class. Someone replacing 360 tomestone gear with 360 Ridorana gear can have the same effect as increasing ilvl if their class is very reliant on some stats and gets very little benefit from others.

Higher ilvl doesn't always mean better gear. I replaced my 370 boots with 360 from Ridorana because the huge chunk of crit I gained far outweighed the minor hp and mind gain from the 370.

I think you fail to see how giving priority for gear is fair because you don't know how combat stats work. Alliance gear isn't as insignificant as you think.

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It is a slight upgrade in the sense that I doubt having one upgrade will make the overall run that much quicker or more effective as a whole. If it does fair enough, I have not done the math or looked at the longs to do the math how much time such an upgrade with shave off the overall run. I mean for me that benefits of that would have to either equal or surpass the effects of the group for it to right to take away the groups right to roll on the item.

I do get where you are coming form, you want role priority due to the fact that you took the time to queue up as that role and you should be granted some level of safety against other players snagging what could potential be an upgrade? I mean that is my basic understanding, I have always had a hard time understanding the notion of giving certain players in a PuG setting priority over others. I do not like RNG or gear treadmills, but if I had to pick my poison, it would be a token based system and this greed only rule set works far better with a token system over a straight gear reward system.

Going to just run it maybe twice a week, ran it 4 times and not even a piece of striking dropped those runs. I could of just Greed some gear for WAR but wasn't sure if I'd regret it or not.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do get where you are coming form

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You keep saying that but you don't.

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Originally Posted by Awha

you want role priority due to the fact that you took the time to queue up as that role and you should be granted some level of safety against other players snagging what could potential be an upgrade?

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My personal reasoning for wanting role priority is so I can help my raid team. If my gear gets better then the team has increased chance of killing the boss. Sure something might be a minor upgrade for me, but if several individuals get minor upgrades then the team as a whole gets a big upgrade. This reasoning is actually standard across most raiding teams.

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Originally Posted by Awha

but would that slight upgrade provide such a huge boon to the groups effectiveness that it should granted priority over everyone else in the group?

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You don't get where I'm coming from because you don't look at the bigger picture. You keep going on about how the upgrade won't affect the alliance raid's performance, but you don't even think about how that upgrade might affect other content.

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Originally Posted by Awha

So more less if player is the right role / job despite their reasoning for rolling need either it be for an upgrade, FC hand in, or glam they should be granted priority over the rest of the group because they happened to queue up as said roll and or job?

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You have no way of knowing what they're going to use it for. You do know, however, that they have the job unlocked at the right level for it. Which is more than enough reason to go "hm. That person probably needs it more than that other person who isn't currently on that job".
Right now, people still roll on the gear with those exact reasons, difference is they win them over people who need them for their main raison d'etre - being used by battle classes.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You keep saying that but you don't.
My personal reasoning for wanting role priority is so I can help my raid team. If my gear gets better then the team has increased chance of killing the boss. Sure something might be a minor upgrade for me, but if several individuals get minor upgrades then the team as a whole gets a big upgrade. This reasoning is actually standard across most raiding teams.

You don't get where I'm coming from because you don't look at the bigger picture. You keep going on about how the upgrade won't affect the alliance raid's performance, but you don't even think about how that upgrade might affect other content.

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Because those that are affected in the moment will be the alliance raid, who is the say that your current group that you were granted priority over will run more content with you in the future to reap the benefits of your upgrade thus making their future runs better overall. If we are talking a static situation or a PF that does multiple runs I can see where you are coming from, but from my experience most 24's are one offs.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You have no way of knowing what they're going to use it for. You do know, however, that they have the job unlocked at the right level for it. Which is more than enough reason to go "hm. That person probably needs it more than that other person who isn't currently on that job".
Right now, people still roll on the gear with those exact reasons, difference is they win them over people who need them for their main raison d'etre - being used by battle classes.

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That is the point I was trying to make the group has no way of knowing what a player is going to do with the gear, and because they do not know why should they be granted priority simply due to their role / job? In a static setting it makes sense, but in a PuG setting granting priority to another due to their role or job seems odd to me. More or less blind faith that they will put the item to good use since they have happened to queue with that job in the moment.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Because those that are effected in the moment will be the alliance raid, who is the say that your current group that you were granted priority over will run more content with you in the future to reap the benefits of your upgrade thus making their future runs better overall. If we are talking a static situation or a PF that does multiple runs I can see where you are coming from, but from my experience most 24's are one offs.

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Before the last patch I used to run 24 mans several times a week to cap tomes, gear up jobs, get glams and to just generally have fun. I have only done one since the patch. Greed only made 24 mans one offs for me.

Also for all your talk of fairness your statement in that quote is incredibly selfish. You have basically said "if someone getting an upgrade doesn't make a noticeable difference to me then I don't want them to have priority on an upgrade even if it's for their role"