This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

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Originally Posted by Veliena

You realize BLM has the highest dps in sigmascape yes?

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You realize that using Week 2 statistics as a citation for game balance that doesn't include raid dps contribution adds nothing to your point.

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Originally Posted by Veliena

Yes, but as he said, he wants blm to get a buff, not a raid buff. What other buff does he want? If they already do the highest damage, and he doesn't want a buff that helps the raid, then wtf does he want?

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Read my posts

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Originally Posted by Eli85

"Meta Parties" is the most laughable aspect of this game. Log analysis and raid fight break down tells you that any class within the roles is 100% capable of clearing the content. The raiding content in this game is not WoW's Mythic progression where you are class stacking for that extra 1%, and that 1%, because gear is not flowing like a waterfall, is the difference between wipe and clear.

If parties or FCs are insisting on the meta, you are better off not joining either. All it shows is the recruiter / leaders ignorance and / or they're trying to recruit a 'slightly better' class because the others in the group aren't playing to their potential.

Play what you enjoy. Any class can clear the hardest content in the game. Don't let this player ignorance bring you down.

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I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speedkills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

99% of all mythic wow guilds are not even focusing on that 1% and could probably be better served by playing classes they know well. That said, if the PF and a lot of raiding statics are purposefully excluding jobs, it's all well and good to ignore the meta, but the meta dictates what a lot of people will accept into their raiding group.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speed kills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

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When did I say there isn't a performance gain? Obviously, in any game, there will be some classes that perform better than others; and if the difference is egregious, then some re-balancing [should] occur.

Now let's go into some raiding realities.

Unless you are bleeding edge progression, you are not wiping because of 'numbers.' For the vast majority of hardcore raiders, you are struggling with mechanics far, far earlier than numbers. And, in all actuality, once you execute the mechanics flawlessly, the boss dies. Numbers only come in when balance is porous and / or you're carrying.

As for speed runs? Who cares? The boss dies. That's all the matters.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

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In a PvE context, it's not ignorance; it is really is fine. If every single class can complete the hardest content available, there isn't a balance issue. If you can complete the hardest content but still whine "mah numbers," then you just need your ego checked. Reality: your numbers don't mean anything so long as the boss dies. It's like when sports teams win a championship. Sure, the star player is lauded, but do you think the rest of the team gives two figs that their stat line wasn't on par with everyone else? No, they just care that they won.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

99% of all mythic wow guilds are not even focusing on that 1% and could probably be better served by playing classes they know well. That said, if the PF and a lot of raiding statics are purposefully excluding jobs, it's all well and good to ignore the meta, but the meta dictates what a lot of people will accept into their raiding group.

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And none of these groups and FCs are worth playing with. They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works. It's not worth the frustration of trying to join if these 'groups' think only the 'meta' can clear a fight (reality check: every class can).

of course not, but it can be extremely hard to find what you're looking for if you aren't playing the desired classes. you are not presenting any new information, and your suggestion of ignoring "ignoranance" is ignorant :\

Reality check: If every class is capable of meeting the DPS check, any class that doesn't bring something other than that is inherently weaker.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Reality check: If every class is capable of meeting the DPS check, any class that doesn't bring something other than that is inherently weaker.

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If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

of course not, but it can be extremely hard to find what you're looking for if you aren't playing the desired classes. you are not presenting any new information, and your suggestion of ignoring "ignoranance" is ignorant :\

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Very little of what's unpackaged in this thread is 'new information.' Ultimately, this meta party issue is a glaring community problem. The more people who spurn the ridiculousness that it is, the sooner it will go away.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.

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Refusing to take along valuable tools that come at literally no noticeable downside is selfish. You talk about avoiding those 'groups', but I'd rather be avoiding 'those people'.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Refusing to take along valuable tools that come at literally no noticeable downside is selfish. You talk about avoiding those 'groups', but I'd rather be avoiding 'those people'.

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I (nor anyone else that I can remember) is refusing to take along valuable tools that have no downside.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

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META isn't laughable, it's a realization of certain classes being better than others when put in the same group (i.e. Synergy). Buffs or debuts that affect a specific damage type are a problem when classes that do those damage types are quite "up there" when it comes to their ability to put out damage. You'd have to be dumb not to realize this and at least think about putting such a group together.

WoW doesn't have this issue, because the raid sizes are huge and classes have decent utility spread among them. Blizzard has fixed this issue - WoW had it too. Mages remember Sunwell, with Warlocks and Shadow Priests.

WoW content is also harder, with shorter enrage timers, and literal insta-kill mechanics and boss damage (to non-tanks). The margin for error is actually higher in WoW Mythic Raiding. FFXIV overloads encounters with mechanics, but they're actually quite forgiving compared to Mythic WoW raids or high end Mythic+ dungeons.

EDIT: Doesn't mean META is desirable. It isn't. It's a symptom of a problem. Blaming players for the work of the developers and insulting them is... ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.



Very little of what's unpackaged in this thread is 'new information.' Ultimately, this meta party issue is a glaring community problem. The more people who spurn the ridiculousness that it is, the sooner it will go away.

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It's not a need. It's a preference. I think your inability to understand this is clouding your judgement. You're trying to police the preferences of others. You're free to "prefer" to avoid them, but your choice to play a class they deem inferior for the content or group composition doesn't make it bad for them to prefer to avoid you.

The community is only a problem insofar as people like you would like them to ignore the glaringly obvious. They can do this, for the "betterment" of the game, but they're still putting themselves at an objective disadvantage. Again, the capability to do the content does not mean that your class is the most advantageous for completing the objectives within a given group composition. It can still be objective worse than several other classes. Asking them to ignore that is asking them to be willfully ignorant of pretty cut and dry issues in the game. It's actually kind of insulting that you and others like you keep quoting this B.S. about "every class can do it." The issue isn't capability, it's viability within given setups which perform better than others. That's what META is.

It has nothing to do with player attitudes, beyond wanting to stick to it. It has to do with mathematics. Math isn't based on their opinion, it's based on concrete evidence and facts.

Lastly...

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I (nor anyone else that I can remember) is refusing to take along valuable tools that have no downside.

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No. Uh uh.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

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You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

No, I am not policing preferences and I full well know the difference between need and preference. To put my point simply, is this: when all classes can not only complete the hardest content, but are 100% viable, and the community still insists upon the meta, then the community is being tremendously irresponsible. To also emphasize: each and every class has every tool that they need to succeed in the hardest content. This can all be mathematically confirmed and verified.

So what does this 'meta' do in light of all this? It drives a wedge between players in the community, creating an epidemic of disdain and isolation for classes not in the meta.

The game has been balanced for every class to complete all the content. If players want slight edges (because a balance of everyone does the same DPS will never be achieved), that will only show up on FF Logs, well, that's creating toxicity.

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

Also regarding WoW, people here are wrong...

People switch specs in WoW all the time. People reroll based on raid group needs all the time. Some people play multiple classes, and switch based on what the raid needs. I get the impression that many in this thread have never raided in a serious Heroic (before Mythic) or Mythic progression Guild in WoW.

You had to be flexible. Even on a pure DPS class, like Warlock, there were fights that blatantly favored one spec over the other, and the DPS output between the specs had a pretty huge disparity on those encounters. Saying "I only like Destro, so I'm going to play that" means you're going to be doing 10%+ DPS less than the other spec on those encounters - not helpful.

The fact that FFXIV lets you level multiple jobs on the same character should be a clue to people. Flexibility is an asset. It's okay to lobby for class balance, but you can't be taken that seriously if you play [+/- exclusively] one class in the game. Adjust.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

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You're policing it by demonizing it. Telling people it's awful (i.e. "it creates toxicity," calling them "ignorant," etc.) is a tactic used to change their behavior. That's actually toxic and bigoted.

"Toxicity" is one of those new FAD words used to label everything people don't like - usually by people being "toxic" - even if those actions are perfectly okay. Disagreeing with something doesn't make it bad by default. META is not bad, per se. It's just inconvenient to people who choose to play classes not in the current META. That's all.

People tend to "want" to be benevolent. Your tactic exploits that, and is used to police others' behavior by labeling behaviors that are okay - but you disagree with - as bad, and then conflating it to seem like the entire community disagrees with it. We actually do this to teach our kids how to behave, so it has some utility - but most of us aren't kids. We don't need this, or want it.

They're saving time and increasing their fun factor in the game. You just don't like it, because you picked a class to play that doesn't get the preferential treatment. Boo. Hoo...

Meta means a group composition that is more efficient or effective than others.

That's all it means. That a group built around good P.DPS classes that can debuff P.VULN is more effective than if you took a P.DPS and replaced it with an M.DPS.

The community isn't being irresponsible. They just know basic arithmetic. Stop acting like you don't (or... do you?).

Not wanting your Black Mage because their "Meta Setup" performs better (statistically speaking - we shouldn't care about outliers or anecdotes) is not toxic.

It's common mathematical sense. The math agrees with them, not you.

It's not their fault that they take these things a bit more serious than you do. They don't pay a subscription or play the game just to make you feel good about the choice you've made in it.

All I'm hearing is that if I use a non meta class to clear EX/Savage content I am just a much better player than everyone else... requiring certain classes only shows me the group is inflexible and probably can't adapt when things go nuts...

No, what you're hearing is that, statistically speaking, assuming equal skill levels, the META setup will perform better at a more reliable rate than other setups.

That's how these things work, but you're warping it to fit your own narrative of being "such a good player." It has nothing to do with skill, since the game must be balanced assuming a relatively equal skill level - and players then work to achieve that level.

It's almost like people are willfully refusing to understand something that is almost trivial to grasp...

Black Mage isn't a bad class. the problem is that groups that don't use Black Mage tend to do better, on average, than those that do.

This is the problem, and this is the balance point that needs to be addressed.

How can we make groups that use casters perform - generally - about as well, as consistently, as those that are built around melee DPS and support classes/buffs.debuffs?

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Instead of addressing these problems, you've turned it into a witch hunt on the META and those players who prefer to stick to it. Not even really on-topic, to be frank.

A META will always exist. It's impossible for it not to, because balance is never flawless and classes are different. The issue I seem to sense is that people are simply salty because their choice class isn't part of that group. Classes in the META aren't complaining about the META - this never happens :-P

This probably sounds dumb to a lot of the hardcore players, but with any MMORPG I don't care what is meta, me and my friends will play what we enjoy and go through the games content that way. And I've met dozens of people that feel the same way, most of them becoming good friends I play other MMOs with now or we've joined guilds that carry that idea. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm looking to enjoy the game. I know this isn't a solution, but I hope you focus on enjoying your playtime instead of worrying if you're going to meet anyone's expectations. And trust me, you're not worthless no matter what you play and don't let anyone ruin the game from you because "hurrr the X job is best right now I demand you play that or you can't join us in this raid!"

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Originally Posted by Kohlian

This probably sounds dumb to a lot of the hardcore players, but with any MMORPG I don't care what is meta, me and my friends will play what we enjoy and go through the games content that way. And I've met dozens of people that feel the same way, most of them becoming good friends I play other MMOs with now or we've joined guilds that carry that idea. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm looking to enjoy the game. I know this isn't a solution, but I hope you focus on enjoying your playtime instead of worrying if you're going to meet anyone's expectations. And trust me, you're not worthless no matter what you play and don't let anyone ruin the game from you because "hurrr the X job is best right now I demand you play that or you can't join us in this raid!"

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Players running a raid don't demand anyone play anything. They simply set their requirements. Not everyone can meet them.

Apart from that, I agree with what you stated.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

You realize that using Week 2 statistics as a citation for game balance that doesn't include raid dps contribution adds nothing to your point.



Read my posts



I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speedkills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

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You keep doing the same thing. You say something, I say something to counter that and you turn around and say "No I never said that, read what I said" Like really?

I have said multiple times that yes, blm does need work, but you seem to ignore that fact every time. The issue I have with most of what you keep saying and asking for is you aren't asking for blm to be more unique or bring something a raid would desire as much as the current buffs provided by other jobs, you ask for those jobs to be killed, blm buffed so you, as a blm, have a spot in any raid group due to the class you play.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

When did I say there isn't a performance gain? Obviously, in any game, there will be some classes that perform better than others; and if the difference is egregious, then some re-balancing [should] occur.

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And the difference is vast in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Now let's go into some raiding realities.

Unless you are bleeding edge progression, you are not wiping because of 'numbers.' For the vast majority of hardcore raiders, you are struggling with mechanics far, far earlier than numbers. And, in all actuality, once you execute the mechanics flawlessly, the boss dies. Numbers only come in when balance is porous and / or you're carrying.

As for speed runs? Who cares? The boss dies. That's all the matters.

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Just because YOU don't care about speedrunning or bleeding edge progression, doesn't mean others don't. Furthermore a more optimal comp will help you clear sooner, give you more room for mistakes and what not.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

In a PvE context, it's not ignorance; it is really is fine. If every single class can complete the hardest content available, there isn't a balance issue.

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Wrong. Class Balance is not about if the fights can be cleared (that is fight design). Class balance is the performance of classes in comparison with each other.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If you can complete the hardest content but still whine "mah numbers," then you just need your ego checked. Reality: your numbers don't mean anything so long as the boss dies. It's like when sports teams win a championship. Sure, the star player is lauded, but do you think the rest of the team gives two figs that their stat line wasn't on par with everyone else? No, they just care that they won.

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Wrong again. Using your example. What game do people remember most in the 2016 World Cup? Was it that Germany won in the final? No, they thrashed Brazil 7-1 in the Semi final. In 10/20 years time, will people remember that Messi or Ronaldo didn't win everything in every season? No, they'll care about their absolutely exceptional numbers.

Just because you don't care about personal attainment or groups wanting to better themselves, doesn't mean others don't.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

And none of these groups and FCs are worth playing with. They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works. It's not worth the frustration of trying to join if these 'groups' think only the 'meta' can clear a fight (reality check: every class can).

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In your opinion. Plenty of others enjoy the playstyle. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a social issue where people will want a meta comp filled with poor players at the expense of a non meta comp filled with good players, but the amount of good players playing non meta classes as a main class is very low. Why? Because the classes, and in this case, role (casters) are so bad. Maybe if you had actually read the thread rather than immediately start raging and insulting people, you would realize that.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

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Because your metric of "top performing" isn't accurate. Its ridiculous to claim the top personal DPS class is the top performing DPS role because you aren't taking into account raid dps contribution.

SAM had top personal DPS last patch (with SMN changing on both fights). They weren't meta because BRD/NIN/DRG and MCH (with MNK swapping for MCH in o1s) did more raidwide DPS. It is a team game afterall

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Originally Posted by Veliena

You keep doing the same thing. You say something, I say something to counter that and you turn around and say "No I never said that, read what I said" Like really?

I have said multiple times that yes, blm does need work, but you seem to ignore that fact every time. The issue I have with most of what you keep saying and asking for is you aren't asking for blm to be more unique or bring something a raid would desire as much as the current buffs provided by other jobs, you ask for those jobs to be killed, blm buffed so you, as a blm, have a spot in any raid group due to the class you play.

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Am I not allowed to make counterpoints? Am I not allowed to deny saying something that I haven't said?

You specifically said this:

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Originally Posted by Veliena

yes thats what I meant.

Now the issue I have here, is you didn't ask or mention blm getting a buff to compete with them, you asked for their buff to be removed, and blm given a buff for the group. Pick a direction.

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I absolutely did not say that BLM should be given a buff for the group. If you can find a post where I have said that then feel free to quote it. Perhaps you misread something I said.

I have always said I want BLM to be more unique. Please quote examples where you think I have said otherwise? BLM's uniqueness is:

1) Longer cast times
2) Damage is all on cast times, no OGCD damage
3) Selfish carry DPS

The combination of that is a playstyle that no over class has. I absolutely do not want BLM to be turned into yet another mid dps with utility and high movement. Did I ask for other jobs to be killed? No. Did I say that Disembowel's existence was problematic to class balance? Yes. Have I said that BRD/NIN/MCH/DRG should be nerfed or at least have some time outside of the meta so that other classes can shine? Yes, and I stand by that statement. Three of those classes have been optimal since 3.0, and the composition itself has been optimal since 3.3. No caster has been optimal since a2s as a single fight, and 2.4 as a tier.

At the end of the day there's only a certain amount of dps classes - so they can't all be meta. What is important is this meta changes between fights/patches, that at least one of every role is featured (Melee/Ranged/Caster) and that some patches/fights feature double melee, some feature double ranged and some feature double caster.

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They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works.

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The people who don't understand why META is a thing have an actual "fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding work." It's worked this way for the past ~2 Decades. Since the early days of EQ, it has worked this way. Guilds would bench players mid-raid to being in different classes for the encounter. The issues people are complaining about are less an issue with class design, IMO, and moreso with content design. The fact that the "META" comp is so viable across all the end-game content in the game is a significant balance faux pas that I've never seen before in end-game raiding... Until now.

I think the small raid group sizes is also a contributing factor. So many jobs... so few slots. WoW has 20 slots in Mythic raiding. There are < 20 classes. There are different Specs, but at that level you're pretty much expected to be able to play 2 (if not all three) of your class' specs at a high level. This means no class gets left out, and players simply switch specs based on the encounter.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

It helps if you remember that most of the people talking in the official forums and reddit are idiots.

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Oi those be fighting words dont insult my people there is an imaginary difference between an idiot and a stupid poster.

Going back to the relevance of this thread ya most of what he said. People arent high enough skill level to barking out those demands. Looking at you Byakku ex pfs with ye no double class options.

Play what you like. Discover what is optimal play for that job and learn the content you want to take that job through. No one will deny a competent player based on job stone alone and those that do aren't worth your time anyway.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

The people who don't understand why META is a thing have an actual "fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding work." It's worked this way for the past ~2 Decades. Since the early days of EQ, it has worked this way. Guilds would bench players mid-raid to being in different classes for the encounter. The issues people are complaining about are less an issue with class design, IMO, and moreso with content design. The fact that the "META" comp is so viable across all the end-game content in the game is a significant balance faux pas that I've never seen before in end-game raiding... Until now.

I think the small raid group sizes is also a contributing factor. So many jobs... so few slots. WoW has 20 slots in Mythic raiding. There are < 20 classes. There are different Specs, but at that level you're pretty much expected to be able to play 2 (if not all three) of your class' specs at a high level. This means no class gets left out, and players simply switch specs based on the encounter.

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You raise some good points, but I still think class design is also an issue. When certain classes and roles are completely outclassed by others, it is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

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surely you aren't making the claim the that highest dps = the top performing role based on that number. said class provides no additional raid dps. in a vacuum, sure, they look the best. when you take the other factors into account, they do not.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

Snip.

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I really don't understand why my point is so hard to get across.

No, the mathematics don't disagree with me, they disagree with you. The 'meta' (assuming we agree with it) requires more than is necessary to defeat the boss. Literally any group comp can mathematically kill the boss without. To deliberately exclude classes who can easily kill the boss creates a toxic environment of exclusion. This obsession over metre competing, speed running, just creates an awful environment.

I also never complained about my BLM being excluded.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Snip.

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The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

And the difference is vast in some cases.

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Look up the statistics on FF Logs. There is no 'vast difference.' From top to bottom, the difference isn't glaring.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Just because YOU don't care about speedrunning or bleeding edge progression, doesn't mean others don't. Furthermore a more optimal comp will help you clear sooner, give you more room for mistakes and what not.

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So the skip X phase or disband isn't cancerous? People care about speed running, and that's the problem. You don't save that much time in any given comp. It just creates problems.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Wrong. Class Balance is not about if the fights can be cleared (that is fight design). Class balance is the performance of classes in comparison with each other.

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Actually, you are wrong. Classes are designed and balanced with end game fights in mind (other aspects of the game just works). If a class is performing poorly (or too highly) in top end of content, that's when change occurs.

If every class is viable for end game content, in a PvE context, it's properly balanced. Full stop.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Wrong again. Using your example. What game do people remember most in the 2016 World Cup? Was it that Germany won in the final? No, they thrashed Brazil 7-1 in the Semi final. In 10/20 years time, will people remember that Messi or Ronaldo didn't win everything in every season? No, they'll care about their absolutely exceptional numbers.

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What professional athlete can you think of that cares about MVPs, scoring titles, over team championships? Very, very few. Championships are what goes into the record books, not who had the best stat line in the championship game.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Just because you don't care about personal attainment or groups wanting to better themselves, doesn't mean others don't.

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Once again you are misunderstanding me. Personal attainment or self improvement is fine. Excluding others because they don't fit into some mythical 'meta' — despite the fact that they can complete the content — that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

In your opinion. Plenty of others enjoy the playstyle. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a social issue where people will want a meta comp filled with poor players at the expense of a non meta comp filled with good players, but the amount of good players playing non meta classes as a main class is very low. Why? Because the classes, and in this case, role (casters) are so bad. Maybe if you had actually read the thread rather than immediately start raging and insulting people, you would realize that.

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Casters being 'bad' is a community created concept that has no merit to it whatsoever. The best DPSer in the game is a caster. Too many people in the community have created this myth that casters are bad and these others are better. It's false. Everyone is capable of clearing the content.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Because your metric of "top performing" isn't accurate. Its ridiculous to claim the top personal DPS class is the top performing DPS role because you aren't taking into account raid dps contribution.

SAM had top personal DPS last patch (with SMN changing on both fights). They weren't meta because BRD/NIN/DRG and MCH (with MNK swapping for MCH in o1s) did more raidwide DPS. It is a team game afterall

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As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

Taking conservative RDPS numbers (Tanks at 3000, Healers at 1500, each DPS at 4500), your total raid contribution is 27,000.

On average, Black Mages deal approximately 10% more than the average with data we have so far, (So a Black Mage would be at 4950).

Assuming a set up of: Paladin, Warrior, Ninja, Dragoon, Machinist, Bard, White Mage, Scholar, the Black Mage is most likely being brought instead of the Machinist.

This brings the raid DPS to 27,450. Please note this is before applying the various RDPS buffs.

"Full stop", just by slotting in the Black Mage, the Dragoon's RDPS contribution dropped by 225 (5% of 4500 from the Machinist), so the real benefit of Black Mage drops to +225. 27,225 vs 27,450

Losing the average 1.25% RDPS bonus that Machinist brings (27,225 x 1.0125 = 27,565.3).

Taking out the Machinist means you lost Mana Song, a far superior mana restoration skill. This has implicit DPS gains as it completely removes any need of MP management from the healers (All GCDs used for healing will be the most powerful healing spells, not the most cost efficient, so more GCDs can be devoted to damage). It also brings a universal damage down, so in any fights where physical busters are a concern, this is again an implicit DPS gain.

This is the problem. The Black Mage being present is a choice each individual raid team makes, and in turn they sacrifice something for overall the same-if-not-worse damage totals.

Not exactly a 'top performing DPS'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eli85

The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

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Are you making sure to discount any of the buffs they gained from these other so called DPS classes buffing them? Balance, crit buffs, flat damage% increases. Would you say that a group of 4 blm as dps (excluding the fact that it would have an impact on the LB gauge) would produce more rDPS than say a meta composition such as brd/mch/drg/nin? You cannot consider DPS in a vacuum. You have to consider the utility brought and/or sacrificed.

BLM brings only apocstasis on its own. It should be doing more damage, just as samurai should be, to cover for the fact that it does not improve anyone else's damage or help give say, healers more time to dps and anything like that. The whole point of DPS is to contribute dps, and if you are not considering the impact a particular dps job has on the other dps that surround them, with buffs and utility, then you aren't looking at the whole picture of dps. I'm bringing this up to show you don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Am I not allowed to make counterpoints? Am I not allowed to deny saying something that I haven't said?

You specifically said this:



I absolutely did not say that BLM should be given a buff for the group. If you can find a post where I have said that then feel free to quote it. Perhaps you misread something I said.

Snip

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Just delete the vulnerability completely. Add in some QoL changes to BLM, and some long duration single target buffs that don't benefit burst classes more than sustained DPS classes.

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Maybe I misread what you wanted here, but in any case, this is where I began having issues. You specifically ask for something to be outright removed, not other jobs to be given something as beneficial. I point out that blm is the highest, single dps in the game currently, after you go on and on for 8 pages about them needing a buff, then say no, those aren't good stats. Granted its early but really?

The game devs didn't make the meta, the players did. Why? To shave minimal time off a kill? Seriously? And you want SE to rotate around with this, so that everyone has a chance to look at other jobs and be like, nah I'll pass.

Since when did killing the boss not be enough?

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Originally Posted by Veliena

Since when did killing the boss not be enough?

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You know what makes killing the boss easier?

More damage and party tools.

Crazy, right?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Look up the statistics on FF Logs. There is no 'vast difference.' From top to bottom, the difference isn't glaring.

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Wrong

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Originally Posted by Eli85

So the skip X phase or disband isn't cancerous? People care about speed running, and that's the problem. You don't save that much time in any given comp. It just creates problems.

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I wouldn't call it that word, but I don't think its wrong to set your own requirements for parties.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Actually, you are wrong. Classes are designed and balanced with end game fights in mind (other aspects of the game just works). If a class is performing poorly (or too highly) in top end of content, that's when change occurs.

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Again, wrong. The optimal comp hasn't changed for multiple patches now.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If every class is viable for end game content, in a PvE context, it's properly balanced. Full stop.

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Wrong

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Originally Posted by Eli85

What professional athlete can you think of that cares about MVPs, scoring titles, over team championships? Very, very few. Championships are what goes into the record books, not who had the best stat line in the championship game.

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If you think professional athlete's don't care about being the best they can be, both individually and as a team, you clearly don't have a clue about professional athletes. And that mentality only serves my point further.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Once again you are misunderstanding me. Personal attainment or self improvement is fine. Excluding others because they don't fit into some mythical 'meta' — despite the fact that they can complete the content — that's the problem.

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So what, you are forced to play with people who have different mindsets and goals to you?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Casters being 'bad' is a community created concept that has no merit to it whatsoever. The best DPSer in the game is a caster. Too many people in the community have created this myth that casters are bad and these others are better. It's false. Everyone is capable of clearing the content.

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Wrong again.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

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Wrong again. Raid DPS > Personal DPS

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Originally Posted by Veliena

Maybe I misread what you wanted here, but in any case, this is where I began having issues. You specifically ask for something to be outright removed, not other jobs to be given something as beneficial.

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In the short term, there is no way SE are going to be able to create competing buffs on multiple different classes for every role. Therefore until the next expansion, the short term fix is to remove it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veliena

I point out that blm is the highest, single dps in the game currently, after you go on and on for 8 pages about them needing a buff, then say no, those aren't good stats. Granted its early but really?

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Raid DPS is the metric you rate performance on, not personal DPS. Furthermore, as i've said before, Week 2 statistics is not an ideal thing to go on - especially given the changes that are coming next week with Physical Weapon Damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veliena

The game devs didn't make the meta, the players did. Why? To shave minimal time off a kill? Seriously? And you want SE to rotate around with this, so that everyone has a chance to look at other jobs and be like, nah I'll pass.

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The game dev's made the meta by overbuffing Bard and Machinist, that were support jobs, in Heavansward to the point where they outdpsed casters. They continued this meta by refusing to give non utility DPS enough damage to outweigh it, and give one class an absolutely broken kit (Ninja) and three classes near unbeatable synergy (Bard/Machinist/Dragoon).

Until disembowel and ninja are dealt with, its going to take another absolutely broken class to be able to compete with it. From a personal standpoint, I don't think going on a rotation of buffing everything and refusing to nerf broken things is the best way to balance things due to power creep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veliena

Since when did killing the boss not be enough?

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Some people enjoy pushing things to the absolute limit. Some don't. Adjusting the balance of classes isn't going to remove your goal of "just killing the boss". Adjusting the balance of classes will mean that the caster role actually gets a chance to be used in Speedruns so they can have that goal.

[QUOTE=HaroldSaxon;4572791Snip[/QUOTE]

You have done nothing in this entire thread but say wrong, wrong wrong, without anything to back it up. You say some people enjoy x but then demand x is killed. You say meta is all that matters when it really doesn't. You say raid dps is better then personal dps, yet give no solutions to the current issues of not having enough jobs be "viable" and instead simply sit here and complain about everything. Either propose actual solutions or plz, stfu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veliena

You have done nothing in this entire thread but say wrong, wrong wrong, without anything to back it up. You say some people enjoy x but then demand x is killed. You say meta is all that matters when it really doesn't. You say raid dps is better then personal dps, yet give no solutions to the current issues of not having enough jobs be "viable" and instead simply sit here and complain about everything. Either propose actual solutions or plz, stfu.

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I've backed things up constantly. I'm not going to copy paste my old posts in this thread because someone doesn't want to read the context. I've given plenty of solutions. Maybe you should... Read the thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I've backed things up constantly. I'm not going to copy paste my old posts in this thread because someone doesn't want to read the context. I've given plenty of solutions. Maybe you should... Read the thread?

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All you have done countless times is simply state blm needs a buff, and other jobs need to lose theirs. You say you want blm to remain as it is, a selfish dps, we point out they are indeed the top dps currently and you just say no. You state that taking a "meta" comp is the only way for less skilled players to complete the hardest content.

Ok
1. Less skilled players shouldn't be doing the hardest content.
2. If players want to play by self imposed rules to shorten the fights length, thats the players problem
3. Currently every job in the game can complete the hardest content if the players on the jobs are skilled enough
4. If players do enjoy going for speed kills ect, then they have chosen to do so and if 1 comp is better then the others due to their self imposed rules, again, thats their problem.
5. The only time when the time it takes to kill a boss matters is in world first races, again self imposed rules. Be that as it may, for everyone below #1, meta doesn't really matter.

And btw the devs opinion on meta in today's LL :

A6: We believe everyone is focusing on their main job; however, we’re making sure the experience when playing the jobs are different. At the very least, we have no plans to add any new support abilities in the 4.x series. Also, there seems to be a trend where players believe they are at a disadvantage when they bring certain jobs to raids, but there won’t be any major disadvantage or advantage no matter what setup you have.

understand : stop annoying us with meta, we won't be working on it cause it's your problem (players choice)

Depends much on what you are aiming towards to, if your plan is clearing the content at your pace while also getting fun out of it ye that argument is valid, HOWEVER if you plan to be competitive then that argument is no longer valid because sopme jobs have clearly some advantages over others and what ppl want is not that all jobs to be meta but at least beign a choice and atm BLM is not much of a choice in the group because it doesn't fill the gap of rdps and it doesn't synergizes with other the other jobs in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karshan

And btw the devs opinion on meta in today's LL :

A6: We believe everyone is focusing on their main job; however, we’re making sure the experience when playing the jobs are different. At the very least, we have no plans to add any new support abilities in the 4.x series. Also, there seems to be a trend where players believe they are at a disadvantage when they bring certain jobs to raids, but there won’t be any major disadvantage or advantage no matter what setup you have.

understand : stop annoying us with meta, we won't be working on it cause it's your problem (players choice)

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I love this post.

The funniest thing about meta is that, it works better the better your party is. For casual play, where you don't align party buffs perfectly and not everyone is doing optimal DPS to use them fully, utility oriented classes lose their raid DPS. Pure DPS jobs don't rely on others dealing damage for you, which lowers the rDPS gap.
But that doesn't change the fact, that if you want to aim higher than weekly savage farm, choosing wrong class will hurt you.

any job can clear content we know that but meta is define from speed kills, Rdps as a whole. if Black mage and Samurai bring enough personal dps to make up for that Rdps that you lose from switching to these jobs it will be fine but as currently they do not