Who in the seven hells limited anything to 3 auto buttons?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?
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11-28-2017, 05:36 AMLunaTsukihime
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11-28-2017, 05:36 AMReynhartWhat is currently the "best" opener for MNK ? I'll see how it would work with my suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
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11-28-2017, 05:45 AMVaerI'm calling them auto buttons because they auto change for you. This is specifically for the combos since this is what we are talking about, not that the entire job is just 3 buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Not a monk main but the one I usually seen thrown around has the following things inside the PB window and the PB window starts right after the Demolish you use on pull. ogcds omitted since combo buttons wouldn't really stop you from using ogcds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
[PB] Snap Snap Dragon Kick Twin Snakes True Strike [/PB] Bootshine
The green is ok with your suggestions since they are tier 3 abilities, the rest of them wouldn't be usable. The oGCDs are also taken up by Diversion, Pot, Riddle of Fire and Internal Release. Sticking Form Shift in there a bunch of times (about 4 times) would be tough.
Going by this. -
11-28-2017, 05:48 AMMisteWell you said you wanted to reduce skill bloat right? That was one of your goals in combining combos into one button.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime
MNK has 8 different combinations with 6 different weapon skills.
6 Weapon Skills:
Bootshine
Dragon Kick
True Strike
Twin Snakes
Snap Punch
Demolish
8 Combinations:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Demolish
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > True Strike > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Boot Shine > True Strike > Snap Punch
To turn all of those possibilities into one button each you would need 8 buttons which ends up more than the 6 standalone buttons we have right now.
The only solution to this problem would be to alter how MNK currently plays (IE: Reynhart's suggestions) and that alteration is for the sole reason to make this system work and not to improve MNK or make it more fun IE: What an expansion would usually try to do. It is forcing change around an outside influence instead of changing the job simply to make it better, more fun, or more engaging. That's my opinion anyway. -
11-28-2017, 05:53 AMkikix12
Monks are an odd-ball, seeing as they changed warriors stance-based skills to shift depending on stance, but they didn't for Monk. If you ask me, Monks should have theirs changed already, seeing as they're not utilizing combos but stances.
Have three buttons which correspond to the three skills that are available only in current stance. Then when you use one, the stance changes, and so do the skills, but at all points, you can use any of the three skills that correspond to the stance in question.
This does change two things. Perfect balance (but one skill is not enough to avoid a change like this, for the sake of having job gauges more skills were ditched/changed than just one) and using Bootshine in a different stance than Opo-Opo. Dunno whether it is used in Raptor or Coeurl though (or whether it can, really), so no idea whether it's actually relevant.
However, Perfect Balance is a skill that I think should have been changed anyway. I'm anything but a fan of long-cooldown skills. If something have a cooldown higher than 60sec, I think it should be changed, unless it's got a long duration as well. And three minutes for 10sec duration, and with such a skill that have no game-breaking abilities (unlike the sort of Hallowed Grounds or Benediction which at least can make a difference between a wipe and a safe fight without a death), is messed up.
EDIT: Yes, I didn't read earlier posts before posting this. But yes, I agree with the above being the way monks work, and without even considering it part of this thread as it's got nothing to do with combos, per see. -
11-28-2017, 06:04 AMLunaTsukihimeYes I get it, you want every combination of those 6 skills but in reality not all of those 8 are needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
Also, they for example removed the poison buffs from ninjas, removing the choice between stun or silence, that still didn\\'t mean ninjas lost those, what I\\'m getting at, classes will get changes regardless, we can argue and get angry at each other but in the end we are theorizing here how to improve the game we love for everyone.
I understand that monk will need some attention, but that would only mean SE cares about our QoL. -
11-28-2017, 06:05 AMReynhartOk, so, we'll state again how Perfect Balance would work and synergize with Form Shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
- Puts you in Coerul Form
- No automatic form change after a WS
- No delay and no GCD to Form Shift. Basically, you'd cast Form Shift as quickly as Mudras.
So, the opener would be : [PB] Snap Snap Form Shift Dragon Kick Form Shift Twin Snakes True Strike Form Shift Form Shift [/PB] Bootshine
Sure, you'd have to do more actions, but you could still do it. It could get more complicated if you have some CD to pop between weapon skills.
This would be "reducing options" and, even if some options are not optimal, it would make MNK more shallow to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime
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11-28-2017, 06:06 AMMimiluThe combos I put in bold are the only combos you should be doing in current, PvE end game content (causal or hardcore), the rest should never be done. :BQuote:
Originally Posted by Miste
What I think they could do for MNK is have one button be Bootshine + True Strike, one for Dragon Kick + Twin Snakes, and then two separate buttons for Demolish and Snap Punch. -
11-28-2017, 06:10 AMVaerThe oGCDs are also taken up by Diversion, Pot, Riddle of Fire and Internal Release. Sticking Form Shift in there a bunch of times would be tough. You would clip the GCD a bunch of times trying to jam all that in there and probably lose out on 1 or 2 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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11-28-2017, 06:20 AMBroodingFicus
I'm always torn with this. On paper it sounds like a good idea to an extent, at least when you're talking about expansions. Condensing buttons down would mean room for new things to be added without bloat but I've still always been pretty strongly against it. WoW did a lot of pruning and combining of buttons and I only managed to try Legion for about a month before I canceled my subscription. The issue I ran into is that classes felt the same. No matter what I played, there were only about four or five buttons that mattered and the order of those buttons was usually just something like 1-1-1, maybe a proc so hit 2, 1-1-1, enemy is low hp, hit 3. Yes my hotbar was less crowded but I liken it to playing music. Hitting one note over and over isn't objectively harder pr easier than hitting three in a sequence but its the sound. I feel better about the sound/feel I get from doing a combo correctly when it isn't just one note/button. It also means that the classes feel different. My Red Mage feels like a different song from my Ninja or my Machinist and my White Mage feels different from my Summoner or Monk.
My fear with the idea of slamming combo's onto one button is that in the end most classes with heavy amounts of combo's would all start to look something like 1-1-1 2-2-2 3-3-3. The amount of buttons to me right now feels nice and yes they will need to be cautious moving forward. Future expansions may need to look at giving new versions of old abilities the way classes like WHM slowly upgrade their Stone and Aero to higher versions as they level up. That way early dungeons still have plenty of moves available but higher levels don't feel bloated. It's something they need to watch to be certain but the last thing I'd want them to do is to use the PvP as a model. It makes sense there because you're dealing with living, breathing people who move erratically vs mobs that mostly stand still and let you beat on them. Yes there are mechanics but they can be predicted and learned along with a rotation and positional. It's just a very slipper slope to take and I'd rather them look at all other alternatives before condensing in that fashion. They could make it optional I suppose but then you are going to run into the argument that people who use the condensed version have it easier than people who don't and you couldn't just keep adding more moves because you're going to have to balance the button bloat based on the people using the un-condensed version. That isn't something I see square doing anytime soon just because it wouldn't actually solve any hot bar concerns and would create an argument among the player base. -
11-28-2017, 06:20 AMMisteI already mentioned earlier in the thread about optimization. Thing is not everyone plays the same way and not everyone tries to do the 100% best optimization (I mean sure it is the goal for a lot of people and a good thing to aim for, but actually being able to execute your rotation perfectly is another thing and fight mechanics sometimes require you to alter the rotation to adjust). People do mess up their rotations sometimes and even if you consolidated some of the combos people still might forget and use the wrong one then you are missing a buff/debuff which MNKs heavily rely on to do good DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
Going by your bolded ones...what if I messed up my rotation and I was missing Dragon Kick debuff, had Twin Snakes buff already on, Demolish is on too. The best choice in this scenario would be to use Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch, but you've removed it?
I mean take a random fight for example. O3S. Say you are on MNK and you are starting your highest hitting combo Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch, and all your necessary buffs are still on. As you hit Bootshine Hali jumps to do library or sword dance. You adjust to the mechanic and you lose some time on your rotation, but when you are able to hit her again your twin snakes buff is gone so it would be more beneficial to adjust and use Twin Snakes > Snap Punch instead of your original plan of True Strike > Snap Punch.
With the buttons consolidated how do you make this adjustment?
I mean pretending no one needs those combos seems to be farfetched. To me this seems like if you consolidated the combos it would be even more punishing should you mess up which combo you are using since you'll be missing buffs and cannot alter your rotation to somewhat fix it. -
11-28-2017, 06:21 AMHyoMinPark
Thinking about this and how it would impact MNK also brings NIN to mind.
Aside from the Mudras, NIN has theee different combo enders:
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Shadow Fang
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Armor Crush
When you use each is dependent on your timers (Shadow Fang and Huton). Plus you only want to duality Aeolian Edge. These consolidated combos would pose problem for NIN as well. -
11-28-2017, 06:22 AMReynhartI haven't played MNK at high level, but I have no issue casting 2-step ninjutsu between GCD as a NIN. With Riddle Of Fire greatly slowing your attack speed, you don't think you could fit two form shifts here and there ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
Something like : Diversion+PB - Snap - Pot - snap - IR+Form Shift - DK, etc... ?
Disclaimer : I don't know if the opener actually starts before PB, so I'm just considering your opener as it is.
I'd say the only problem with this, is kind of visual monotony. For example, as a PLD, you use Fast Blade for your three combos and you use Riot Blade for your two DPS combo. If each combo would use 3 specific skills, you could technically have 9 different WS.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroodingFicus
This shouldn't really be a problem. Generally, when you start a combo, you already know how you'll finish it. Besides, by having three separate combo, you could potentially adjust the second WS of one of the combo so that you could have an easier time maintaining one of the effect, without requiring an additional slot. You could even make one of the combo only two steps, since it would still require proper planning by preventing last minute switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-28-2017, 06:27 AMLunaTsukihimeThat's why I was suggesting the do-it-yourself combo slots, put spinning and gust in there and keep the finishers separate, one slot saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
If someone wants to put more he can,if someone didn't want it all, he can.
Please, don't assume I'm trying to neuter any class with my suggestion. -
11-28-2017, 06:30 AMVaerFull opener reference here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Pot is used to line up with all the other buffs same with IR/RoF. You could probably move diversion up if you wanted but you would end up triple weaving where a double is already pretty tough if you aren't close to the server. The beginning mostly doesn't have anything because the double snap lets you hit GL3 with the demolish at the beginning so you have the damage bonus before you pop everything else. Kick for blunt dmg and snakes for damage buff then the rest of the stuff with the pot on with the rest of the party utility.
Obv you could just do another opener but your suggestions would probably change how this opener would look for sure.
DRG has the least to lose since their combo is pretty static so it would work well for them. Some of the other jobs have some psuedo branching combos where it wouldn't reduce the buttons by as much as it would for DRG.
I mean they could change the rest of the jobs that could benefit from this change and leave MNK as is but I personally don't think that would be fair. -
11-28-2017, 06:57 AMAnemone_Valestihttp://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...psyawum8he.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
- If you miss, it doesnt change but it would mean you actually have to pay attention to your skills or notice the miss ( Which shouldn't happen unless you are under level I think or if the boss deck u with a loss of accuracy skill lol ).
- Something would have to be done with perfect balance
- tad medicated, so this is as far as I go lol.
Im not on either sides of this, just here to help clarify some things ( Specifically regarding MNK since the uses of the skills...well the skills themselves are directly tied into the stances )
(Note: Apparently the Gif works in Preview post, but when posting it...it doesnt...unless its just me lol)
(Note 2: Derp I didnt loop the Gif lol. My Baaaaaaaaaad xD) -
11-28-2017, 07:05 AMalimdia
Why not remove combos while we're at it? press shadow fang and dot applies, press armor break and huton is extended. I mean, according some people here there's no skill in pressing buttons, so why are pressing them at all? Let's take it to the extreme. Oh and remove mudra combinations too.
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11-28-2017, 07:06 AMReynhartYes, this is what I mean. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anemone_Valesti
Because there is skill in planning and ordering skills...not buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by alimdia
As I said, and as Miste could find it acceptable, those kind of changes would probably be tied to the release of a new expansion, so the opener would have to include all the new tweaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
NIN would only lose 2 slots at best, but, again, it could gain 4 "new" low level skills while requiring only 3 slots total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
Spinning Edge -> Gust Slash -> Aeolian Edge
New opener 1 -> New follower 1 -> Shadow Fang
New opener 2 -> New follower 2 -> Armor Crusher
More skills = easier precise adjustement to potencies.
Besides, in ARR, the longest combo contained 3 steps. In HW, DRG increased it to 4, and to 5 in SB. We might see other jobs having 4-step combo in the next expansion, with no new slot required. -
11-28-2017, 07:16 AMFerth
It should be optional, it shouldn't be useable until at least level 30, and probably level 50 just for good measure, and we should be allowed to customize our combos.
It would be pretty easy to implement a UI function similar to what is already visible in the pvp profile, but let us populate which weaponskills and in which order we want, then let us place the combo buttons where we want as well. Furthermore they can limit it to 2 combo buttons in general. For most physical dps classes that would be more than enough to reduce 6-8 keybinds down to 2 or 3.
You would still be allowed to place all of your weapon skills on the bar, even with the combo buttons (which sort of addresses monk/perfect balance.)
The biggest problem I see here is none of the ranged/caster dps classes have straightforward combos so this wouldn't really help them out. Which isn't a problem so much as it creates another problem for those classes.
I would absolutely love this for all of my tanks and my dragoon. But it would do literally nothing for my black mage. -
11-28-2017, 07:27 AMReynhartCasters already received something similar with higher tier replacing lower ones. You no longer need 3 slots for Thunder, Ruin and Stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferth
Frankly, I don't understand why they didn't fuse Blizzard and Blizzaga...and Fire and Firaga (With an adjustement to Firestarter) -
11-28-2017, 07:36 AMHyoMinParkProbably because Fire III and Blizzard III function differently than Fire and Blizzard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Fire and Blizzard require you to actively use Transpose to switch between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, and they only grant 1 stack per use up to 3. Fire III and Blizzard III switch between the two for you without having to Transpose, and automatically grant you 3 stacks of each. While they could have adjusted for this, they chose for some reason not to. Perhaps a BLM main can provide more insight on that, but all I can say is the two function differently, where as a lot of the other upgrade spells were more or less the same (did the same thing with slightly higher potencies/mana costs like Stone > Stone II > Stone III > Stone IV; Malefic I > Malefic II > Malefic III; Ruin > Broil > Broil II; etc.). Also, Fire is the only Fire than can proc Firestarter, so I can see why they kept Fire for that very reason. Blizzard is just sort of there still, but could be they kept it not only because of different function, but to have the Fire - Blizzard pair.
When I think about it, the other similar spells they kept, they kept because they function differently. For SCH, Ruin was upgraded to Broil, but they kept Ruin II, the insta-cast (can’t speak for SMN on this, but I’m pretty sure Ruin II and Ruin III are still separate, because they function differently from one another—one is insta-cast for use when having to move, the other has a cast time). Same for Aero I > Aero II and Aero III: one is single-target, insta-cast; the other AOE with a cast bar. Different functioning. -
11-28-2017, 07:36 AMBourne_EndeavorIt has nothing whatsoever to do with skill but feel. Pressing 1-2-3 in quick succession feels more active whereas pressing 1-1-1 endlessly feels incredibly dull. There's a reason people complain about RDM aoe or DRG/DRK pre-Abyssal and Sonic Thrust, respectively. Now if they added a series of different combo finishers, perhaps it works. Granted, then you aren't saving any button space, so what's the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorPatty
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11-28-2017, 07:45 AMReynhartDo BLMs really use Blizzard after gaining Blizzaga ? And, without Firestarter attached to it, I'm not sure people would use Fire instead of Firaga. Of course Blizzara and Fira would be kept, since they're AoEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Ruin and Ruin II are separate but Ruin is upgraded to Ruin IIIQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
But Aero II lost its cast time so that it could replace Aero. However, Stone lost its heavy effect to be replace by all subsequent tiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-28-2017, 07:46 AMSandparkIt seems the problem isn't combo enders. It seems to be that there are 3 combo enders branching off one skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
How do you add more complexity but remove hotbar real estate? Move the combo goal post.
Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge
Gust Slash >Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Armor Crush
Before you always did the first two weaponskills with no choice and had choice between what the third will be. Change it from one choice at the 3 or 3 choices at the first.
Like this:
Do I two step for spammy damage?
Gust/spin/shadow for dot and slash debuff?
Spin/gust/armor for huton replenish? -
11-28-2017, 07:56 AMHyoMinParkThat would be a question for a BLM main. I know the basics of how the job works; I do not know optimal rotations for it. As for using Fire over Fire III, I’m fairly certain it boils down to MP costs. You can use Fire more than Fire III, i.e., it’s inefficient to spam Fire III.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
I was fairly certain that was how it was, but I don’t play SMN. But again, different ways of functioning, so that’s probably why the kept both Ruin II and Ruin III / Broil II for SMN / SCH. Plus, doesn’t Ruin III proc and change into Ruin IV when you get a proc?Quote:
Ruin and Ruin II are separate but Ruin is upgraded to Ruin III
They still kept one that is insta-cast, single target and one that is AOE with a cast bar though. They could have just done away with Aero/Aero II all together and upgraded it to Aero III, but since Aero I and Aero II were single-target and Aero III AOE, different ways of functioning. Hence why both are still there.Quote:
But Aero II lost its cast time so that it could replace Aero. However, Stone lost its heavy effect to be replace by all subsequent tiers.
Bio > Bio II (SCH) > Bio III (SMN), Miasma > Miasma III (SMN) and Combust > Combust II (AST), while the latter spells had cast bars (Bio II and Combust II), they were both single-target. So it just made sense to consolidate and upgrade the two. They don’t function differently really with regards to single target versus AOE (like Aero / Aero II versus Aero III). Same thing for BRD’s DoTs (Venomous Bite > Caustic Bite & Windbite > Stormbite): they’re both single-target, they were just upgraded. But, I’m fairly certain that if CB and SB had been AOE skills that left DoTs on targets, they probably would have kept both (would have been a weird design but they did give BRDs cast times at one point so).
That’s why I think the DoTs were consolidated as such.
I don’t really think that would go over well. Because NIN used to have just a 1-2 combo (Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang) and it just felt incomplete to do it; I recall hearing a few NINs complain about just having a 1-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpark
A question like this would be something better to ask a NIN main. I just brought it up as an aside and as another possible issue. But, I’m a BRD main. Not the person to ask when it comes to NIN rotations/optimization. However, from what I have read, if the boss moves or turns and you cannot hit your rear positional for Aeolian Edge, it’s recommended to Armor Crush instead. Combo consolidation would pose an issue for that sort of situation. -
11-28-2017, 08:02 AMSquintinaI gotta admit I do enjoy that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Especially when doing leveling roulette or fates. Having it adjust for me instead of fumbling through bars is certainly a perk.
I suppose it wouldn't hurt for them to look to see if anything can be combined. (It's not like taking a look means they have to make drastic changes, might just be one or two changes here and there)
I do think one of the failures of this thread was calling this a "pvp system" though. While the OP might have meant it for just the skill combinations into one button, to many of us "pvp system" includes that + all the other skills that were removed and other changes (ex: scholar doesn't even have dots in pvp system, it's like a whole different job!).
This thread might have been more successful if it hadn't mentioned pvp at all and just asked to consolidate more skills to auto-adjust based on levels/stance/other-factors.
Even with the edit to clarify, those 2 words still being in the thread means people will think it's something else. -
11-28-2017, 08:15 AMReynhartOr, there is another way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
- Allow macros to queue like native skills
- Create a command to put a macro to a specific slot
There you are, each player could create his own "evolutive" slots. -
11-28-2017, 08:16 AMOscura
I really don't feel like having three separate Hakaze buttons in order to do my full combos, so no thanks.
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11-28-2017, 08:21 AMSenorPattyOk, I can actually understand and get behind that line of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
All the more reason if such a thing were to be implemented, it would need to be optional. -
11-28-2017, 08:22 AMSandparkI would think the number of button presses would matter less than a worthwhile animation/function.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Change Gust Slash into something animation wise like Shoulder Tackle with a quick flip at the end, but gust will put you behind the enemy for easier access to the back positional for the two combo.
If Gust Slash comes after Spinning Edge, the flip at the end moves ninja to the side of the target setting up the Armor Crush finisher. -
11-28-2017, 08:26 AMAyer2015
From what I gather, most players don't want this to happen. That said, I hope something like the PvP system is implemented in PvE. Fewer skills with greater impact is a better approach imo. Also, I find doing so tends to increase the level of job identity from what we have now.
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11-28-2017, 08:27 AMHyoMinParkI’m assuming that you brought up animations in response to my “incomplete” comment; what I meant had nothing to do with animations and them making the combo feel “complete” really. This game is built with combos being in 3’s (DRG aside). Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang just felt odd, and clunky to use. Using it in between 3-step combos just made it feel cumbersome and like it was very poorly just thrown into the NIN rotation; at least that’s how it felt for me when I was leveling NIN in HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpark
I feel the same way with SAM and Hakage > Yukikaze. Like there should be more to it after that. And that may be because most combos are 3-step combos, and 1-2 just feels like the developers forgot the 3rd skill in the combo. -
11-28-2017, 08:34 AMTaranTatsuuchi
I felt the idea to change the combo skills from multiple buttons to a single button to save on bloat was a good idea.
It would also be nice if the skills swapped in pve, for example...
Summoner's Dreadwyrm trance should be replaced by the flare skill when you activate it, as there's no reason to ever hit the trance button again to end it, and the flare will end it with the flare.
I believe it does this in pvp.
Stuff like that can also help lower button bloat without changing how the jobs are played. -
11-28-2017, 08:55 AMFerthBecause they do different things? The only blm spell that was removed from our bar was Thunder 1. They didn't even remove useless spells like Blizzard 2 and Freeze from our kit, or attempt to change them to make them useful. They could feasibly make some convoluted combination of blizz3/blizz1 and fire3/fire1 where the lower tiers aren't available when in the opposing mode and fire 3 replaces fire 1 when you get a firestarter proc but that would be really messy. Or when you use Leylines the ability changes to between the lines for the duration, but they just won't save as many hotbars as it will for melee classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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11-28-2017, 08:57 AMGhastly
I understand the point of pressing the same button for the attacks that follow a pattern but that really takes away the fun and strategy behind making decisions. There's a difference between pressing the same button and you yourself creating the combinations. It's hard to explain but has to do with strategy, precision, and and thought.
So no, I really really don't want the devs to ever do this. Sb decreased the number of skills so there's no need for something like this yet. In 5.0 what they need to do is let us choose the skills we want that overlap with other skills that have similar use/potency.
For example
Fell cleave or new name skill which lets you hit your enemy twice with similar potency
This way we keep the same number of skills on hotbar and letting you choose to add the new skills or not. -
11-28-2017, 09:20 AMSandparkI understand the idea, it's like a mortal kombat game tying all punch and kick combos to one button. But those kind of games have an action based standard attack system, where as here we have auto attacks for standard basic attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghastly
The combo system more follows the line of fatalities, do x sequence of buttons get the same outcome everytime. If that's the case, finishers should be like that, not the standard rotation. Finishers closest comparison in this game is ultimate job gauge abilities or limit breaks.
So say like:
Spinning Edge> Gust Slash> Armor Crush on same button unlocks 10,000 Moonshadow Strike.
Do the Armor Crush combo on one button
A veil of shadows envelops your ninja
Your hotbar is temporarily replaced with a sequence of 4-8 commands.(sort of like Mortal Kombat or Sabin in FFVI)
Enter the flashy multi button finisher, timing dictates the potency or accuracy of the ultimate finisher.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/XUJDJq4DNIPGU/giphy.gif -
11-28-2017, 09:50 AMRufalus
I think it will happen. Further consolidation of existing skills into fewer buttons is how they will add more skills later on without increasing burden on hotbars. FYI yoshida said they were considering something like the pvp consolidation of combos in pve and will monitor player feedback on it while also noting that certain jobs in the way they play now are difficult to consolidate. Also apparently doing this is an increased burden on the servers when it communicates with the client to cycle hotbar buttons onto the next skill in a chain, but it's possible to do and being considered. It wouldn't really make the game too easy because other things change too like gauges and mechanics... people were worried that SB skill bloat reduction would make the game too easy. If anything SB mch is even harder to play than HW mch.
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11-28-2017, 12:41 PMShurrikhanThat is what it would take to allow fixed combos. But Monks are not a fixed combo class. Why then would one try to assign a strict set of 3 skills in a row to a slot when they could instead just use 3 slots to progress through any of the given skills in each Form?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
Opo-opo
1 Bootshine
2 Dragon Kick
3 Arm of the Destroyer
Raptor
1 True Strike
2 Twin Snakes
3 One-Ilm Punch
Coeurl
1 Snap Punch
2 Demolish
3 Arm of the Destroyer
If Perfect Balance then remains, it would both negate the GCD and animation costs of Form Shift, your (4).
Now, you could keep those extra 6 keys for the purpose of ease of use during 10 seconds of every 3 minutes, as per your own preference. I just wouldn't. I'd rather just speed up my apm for that brief period of time, so long as 6 out of 10 weaponskills at any point are going to be locked out.
But, again, this would require zero alternations to Monk's play style, unless you're intending on spamming non-comboed Opo-opo abilities. It would only add button-presses during a particular CD — no actual animations or delay added whatsoever — in exchange for freeing up 6 hotkeys. It does not change the playstyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
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11-28-2017, 12:50 PMEnla
I'll cancel my sub to this game the moment they try this.
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11-28-2017, 01:12 PMMisteQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My example is based on what OP asked for.
As for this I've already explained my point of view? It's right there at the end of the post you quoted that I don't agree with altering MNK's play style simply to make this system work. Making MNK have to weave in Form Shifts to do their current opener is altering their play style. I don't agree with doing that for the sole reason of making this combo system work, and nothing you say will change my mind on that, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If in the future they want to alter the jobs for expansion etc and they renew them and include this new system while also taking into account fun, a unique play style, and balance for all jobs, then in theory I am okay with that, as long as it is optional and I can keep my buttons separate if I so choose. We are just throwing ideas around, but we aren't taking into account balance, or fun, and that kind of makes most ideas pretty useless really.
If it was ever not optional and forced on us to use consolidated combos I would cancel my sub, it simply wouldn't be the same game to me anymore and would lose a lot of the fun I had with it.
PS. As a side note jobs like BRD for example where you spam one button for an extended period of time (Heavy Shot while not needing to refresh dots and inbetween song actions etc) makes my hand hurt because there is not enough variation sometimes. Similar to RDM, as much as I love RDM, in dungeons the constant spamming of one button (scatter) hurts my hand. So making rotations where you use the same button repetitively, even if for different actions, definitely doesn't seem appealing for multiple reasons for me personally.