DPS is the job of DPS.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

How? Hroudig said they both mitigate damage. How would Tank 2 be easier to heal?

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Simple Tank 1 will have less health than tank 2 because they're using str over vit. though honestly the whole thing would be moot if they'd just make vit increase tank damage again.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Simple Tank 1 will have less health than tank 2 because they're using str over vit. though honestly the whole thing would be moot if they'd just make vit increase tank damage again.

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Do you...have any clue what you're talking about? lol

Tanks can't equip STR accessories past Lv60, and the strength that tanking gear gets past that makes the loss in not equipping the Lv60 gear not worth it.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Simple Tank 1 will have less health than tank 2 because they're using str over vit. though honestly the whole thing would be moot if they'd just make vit increase tank damage again.

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Are you still playing Heavensward? :)

The only reason why this is a thing is because some people think that Square Ex is infallible (see ff14 1.0 ppl). It can make mistakes, SE is made up of people.

It's obvious that some content is not properly tuned.
For a min just step out of your comfort zone and realize that the developers of the games are not gods. You are not leet for banging your head against the keyboard long enough to get the clear. The content is not even worth the time.

My personal opinion is a DPS race and hopscotch (avoid the fire) game-play is boring and lazy. They seem to be adding more not less of such game-play.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Simple Tank 1 will have less health than tank 2 because they're using str over vit. though honestly the whole thing would be moot if they'd just make vit increase tank damage again.

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Tanks can’t use STR accessories after level 60. Level 63+ tank accessories are all locked to Fending.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Are you still playing Heavensward? :)

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They can slap materia into thier gear Materia

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

They can slap materia into thier gear Materia

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Yes, tanks meld STR on the right side, but only because it's already capped with VIT. VIT increases tank DPS just as much as STR at the moment (and also provides additional HP). :)

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

materia people gods cant believe i need to explain the obvious.

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What would you think would be the "obvious" solution to these tanks melding instead of STR?

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

They can slap materia into thier gear Materia

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Tank accessories are already capped on vit, so melding vit into them won't be beneficial at all.

materia people gods cant believe i need to explain the obvious.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

materia people gods cant believe i need to explain the obvious.

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Please do, everything you say is gold.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Simple Tank 1 will have less health than tank 2 because they're using str over vit. though honestly the whole thing would be moot if they'd just make vit increase tank damage again.

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Watch as your beloved Tank-2 eats 3 Susano-TankbusterCleaves in phase 1 while Tank-1 only eats 2 Susano TankbusterCleaves because he's actively skipping the 3rd Buster with a phasepush thanks to higher DPS.

Disregarding your complete lack of knowledge that Tank 1 would never have less health than Tank 2 ever since the acc changes at early Stormblood by the way.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

materia people gods cant believe i need to explain the obvious.

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You can't meld VIT on gear that's already has VIT as main stat. Wow lmao.

Threads like this is why tank dps was utter trash at the start of stormblood....dps is every roles responsibility just like hate management is EVERYONES responsibility.....yes heals are tanks have their main role to focus on but majority of the content doesn’t even call for 100% healing or 100% tank stance

It just doesn’t make sense for anyone playing to not want to do at least the minimal amount of dps especially if it’s only three buttons....I play all roles and just like a dps not using aoe, it’s annoying watching a healer just stand there or a tank not using their aoe abilities

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

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Either one works for me. But how is the other tank pushing 1000 more DPS if he is also mitigating? The tank's mitigation allows me to DPS more as healer since I can spend my gcds on rocks instead of cure 2s, which in turn makes up the 1000 dps difference, and no mobs are trying to eat my face. Sounds like a good run to me. Wanna spend a whole run in offensive stance since there are no agro issues? Cool! But my DPS goes way down too keeping you alive. Especially considering the majority of DF tanks seem to have forgotten to put their defensive CDs on their bars.

I'm not quite sure when peeps will evaluate DPS as a group instead of having e-peen vision on their own personal DPS. Tank and healer DPS in particular is a synergy. In any content that isn't over-geared the offense of one is traded by the offense of the other, especially 4-man.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

materia people gods cant believe i need to explain the obvious.

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Tank’s can’t meld VIT into their gear; that stat is already maxed out.
Level 70 STR accessories can’t be equipped by a level 70 tank.
Level 70 tanks can only equip VIT accessories—which you can’t meld more VIT into.
Because VIT is already maxed out.

Can’t believe I needed to explain the obvious...

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

They can slap materia into thier gear Materia

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They can't slap vit into their gear. The vit on their accessories is statcapped by default.

There are people that like to heal and there are people that like to DPS. Its probably fair to say that the amount of people who want to, are capable of, and/or skilled at doing both is a smaller number and you'd be kidding yourself to say they aren't being expected to do both. I don't know what the fix is but even if there is one, I doubt SE would incorporate any kind of overall change to healers this far into the game. So at this point, lets just hope the amount of adept healer players isn't creeping on a downward slope. Our static was searching for a healer for 2 weeks and got lucky, finding one that was even willing to do call outs on top of all the other baggage.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Either one works for me. But how is the other tank pushing 1000 more DPS if he is also mitigating? The tank's mitigation allows me to DPS more as healer since I can spend my gcds on rocks instead of cure 2s, which in turn makes up the 1000 dps difference, and no mobs are trying to eat my face. Sounds like a good run to me. Wanna spend a whole run in offensive stance since there are no agro issues? Cool! But my DPS goes way down too keeping you alive. Especially considering the majority of DF tanks seem to have forgotten to put their defensive CDs on their bars.

I'm not quite sure when peeps will evaluate DPS as a group instead of having e-peen vision on their own personal DPS. Tank and healer DPS in particular is a synergy. In any content that isn't over-geared the offense of one is traded by the offense of the other, especially 4-man.

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You seem to be under the impression that tank stance is the best mitigation in the game.

some decent dps input from the healer and tank is better than no dps (or just the bare minimum just to hold enmity for tanks) input at all. it just makes all the content smoother, while it makes certain high end content go from sorta-near-impossible to possible to beat enrage / clear at minimum required item level

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

You seem to be under the impression that tank stance is the best mitigation in the game.

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You mean that the best mitigation is killing things quickly? Don't talk to me like a newbie, I've been healing tanks a long time. Long enough to know that tanks going full on DPS require more heals from me unless incoming damage doesn't beat out the regen ticks, as in the case with over-geared content. This is fine though, so long as they are holding agro. I don't have a e-peen. I couldn't care less about my own DPS because it is not my primary role. If a tank wants to be more defensive, I'll DPS more. If they want to be offensive, I'll heal more. That adaptability is one of the great things about being a healer, and the DPS between the tank and myself will always be around the same.

Also, what other ability in the game gives tanks a perpetual 20% mitigation other than tank stance?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I've been healing tanks a long time.

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Okay.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What other ability in the game gives tanks a perpetual 20% mitigation other than tank stance?

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Are you sure you've been healing a long time? Because i feel like honestly, you should be at least slightly familiar with how tanks work considering how often you have to work with them.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

I'm not a tank main or anything, only really have leveled drk since i was doing it w/ partner, but the general idea i got was that you can drop stance and use your 'cooldowns' to substitute your tank stance and use your damage combo to deal more damage, being in your tank stance lowers your damage by about 20% or so, so being out of this 'stance' removes that penalty entirely, and if you're factoring in that you're using the damage combo which is higher potency vs the enmity combo, of course a greater amount of damage is to be expected over a period of time.

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Depends on the tank. DRK in particular can keep both Grit and Darkside up, which results in no penalty to damage, but no increase either. They stance dance by dropping Grit and activating Blood Weapon to increase their damage. Your point still gets across though, and a DRK will undisputedly cause more damage remaining out of Grit. And to be fair, there was no mention of a tank stance being used. Only that both tanks are mitigating. What I asked though, is what is the other tank doing to cause 1000 more DPS than the other tank if they are both mitigating? If the answer is one is in tank stance, and the other is not, than I get that. And that is precisely why I brought up that the healer likely has to give up their own DPS to keep this tank up.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

To be honest,it may be better applying your heal over time spells(regen/asylum) before bringing out the cure II bat right away...

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I've been healing content for two years. I wouldn't even be participating in this thread and making the statements I'm saying if I didn't know how to use Cure 2. My whole point revolves around the synergy between healers and tanks when running content they can't faceroll, and the lack of emphasis towards group wide DPS. When I see comment like which tank do you prefer, the 2000 or 3000 DPS? I'm honestly like, "Who gives a shit? How's the group performing?"

Uhm...there are still damage penalties in grit.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You mean that the best mitigation is killing things quickly? Don't talk to me like a newbie, I've been healing tanks a long time. Long enough to know that tanks going full on DPS require more heals from me unless incoming damage doesn't beat out the regen ticks, as in the case with over-geared content. This is fine though, so long as they are holding agro. I don't have a e-peen. I couldn't care less about my own DPS because it is not my primary role. If a tank wants to be more defensive, I'll DPS more. If they want to be offensive, I'll heal more. That adaptability is one of the great things about being a healer, and the DPS between the tank and myself will always be around the same.
Also, what other ability in the game gives tanks a perpetual 20% mitigation other than tank stance?

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I'm talking about those magic buttons tanks have that make them take less damage for a period of time. I must admit, I'm surprised you don't seem to be aware of them given the fact you've "been healing tanks for a long time."

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Originally Posted by Misstique

Does healer dps while I'm in tank stance do more overall dps?
OR
Does staying in dps stance while healer spends more time healing do more dps.

I don't know tbh.

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Tanks lose out on more dps than healers do by staying in tank stance as much as possible. However, if the people in your group know what they're doing, you can have both tanks in dps stance the whole fight and still have both healers focus on dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Misstique

Actually, War defiance doesn't give any additional mitigation. It does give a max 25% hp and does increase healing received by 20%. That being said, it doesn't help when getting hit by a tank buster, hard hitting mobs, etc and is only reliant on either being healed or self healing.

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My question wasn't loaded if anyone takes it that way, and I am curious if there are any abilities other than tank stance that provide a perpetual 20% mitigation. DRK is the only tank I am familiar with.

However, is this information accurate?

Defiance:

Increases maximum HP by 25%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity.

Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%.

Effect ends upon reuse.

Using certain actions while under the effect of Defiance will increase your Beast Gauge, increasing parry rate to a maximum of 10%. The Beast Gauge returns to 0 when Defiance ends.

Cannot be used with Deliverance.

Shares a recast timer with Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by Misstique

Anyway, I do agree that the whole meta of tanks leaving tank stance to kill things faster is not accurate. It comes down to the mathematics which others I think have already worked out to some extent. Killing all enemies faster as a better form of mitigation is thrown around a lot without the context of how it works in actuality.

With all players of equal skill playing their roles properly, I'm personally not sure what would be more useful. Say for example, I stay in deliverance to increase my dps and my overall dps goes up by "x" amount minus healer dps due to spending time healing more.

Does healer dps while I'm in tank stance do more overall dps?
OR
Does staying in dps stance while healer spends more time healing do more dps.

I don't know tbh.

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Awesome! You know exactly where I am coming from. I totally get both tanks and healers trying to be as offensive as possible in order to optimize, and kill things efficiently, but the individual mindset in these threads drives me batshit.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Uhm...there are still damage penalties in grit.

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I never said there wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

My question wasn't loaded if anyone takes it that way, and I am curious if there are any abilities other than tank stance that provide a perpetual 20% mitigation. DRK is the only tank I am familiar with.

However, is this information accurate?

Defiance:

Increases maximum HP by 25%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity.

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Nope. It isn't accurate at all. Warriors get no defensive bonus from their tank stance, just better heals and more HP. the eHP works out to be about the same as the other two's tank stances in most cases, but Warriors, absolutely, 100% do NOT get defense buffs from Defiance. They'd be walking fortresses in tank stance if they did and also had more HP than the other two tanks.

EDIT: On topic, if you're in content that matters to you to clear, DPS is everyone's job. Enmity is everyone's job also, while we're on the topic.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

Okay.



Are you sure you've been healing a long time? Because i feel like honestly, you should be at least slightly familiar with how tanks work considering how often you have to work with them.

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Really? How long have you been healing them? I've also been posting on internet forums for a long time as well, and can smell a trollish comment a mile away.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

When I see comment like which tank do you prefer, the 2000 or 3000 DPS? I'm honestly like, "Who gives a shit? How's the group performing?"

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Agreed, if the group's doing fine and not wiping over and over for some reason, I'd be totally content of having either regardless of the tank's play-style preferences.
I feel as though heavy pushing for bigger digits (on tank/healer roles) only really can be considered for progression/new difficult content(Ex/Savage) with enrage timers and whatnot, although it does make the easier content a lot swifter to get through if they go the extra mile.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Really? How long have you been healing them? I've also been posting on internet forums for a long time as well, and can smell a trollish comment a mile away.

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Apologies if it came off as trollish, it just sounded quite absurd to myself at the time.
And you've been healing longer than i have, probably.
I'm pretty much a new player with just about a year's play time now.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Nope. It isn't accurate at all. Warriors get no defensive bonus from their tank stance, just better heals and more HP. the eHP works out to be about the same as the other two's tank stances in most cases, but Warriors, absolutely, 100% do NOT get defense buffs from Defiance. They'd be walking fortresses in tank stance if they did and also had more HP than the other two tanks.

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That's damage dealt by the war.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Depends on the tank. DRK in particular can keep both Grit and Darkside up, which results in no penalty to damage, but no increase either. They stance dance by dropping Grit and activating Blood Weapon to increase their damage.

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Even if Darkside cancels out Grit’s damage penalty, it’s still a penalty. It’s net-zero with Grit+Darkside; it’s +20% with just Darkside. Darkside doesn’t require Grit to be used, and there’s never a reason now to not have Darkside up 100% of the time since they removed the steady MP drain from it. So it’s still a technically a penalty.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Uhm...there are still damage penalties in grit.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I never said there wasn't.

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You technically did:

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Depends on the tank. DRK in particular can keep both Grit and Darkside up, which results in no penalty to damage, but no increase either.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's damage dealt by the war.

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Yep. That's the damage dealt by the Warrior reducing by 20%, not the damage dealt by enemies to the Warrior.

Just making sure it was clear to the healer talking about it above.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Yep. That's the damage dealt by the Warrior reducing by 20%, not the damage dealt by enemies to the Warrior.

Just making sure it was clear to the healer talking about it above.

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Oh, it looked like you bolded the reduce damage dealt part, but it was already bolded. I can't brain anymore.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I'm talking about those magic buttons tanks have that make them take less damage for a period of time. I must admit, I'm surprised you don't seem to be aware of them given the fact you've "been healing tanks for a long time."

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Oh, you mean the ones 80% of DF tanks don't use? So I should assume you're talking about them in the same way I should assume my DF tanks will use them?

I'm surprised you even play this game.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Tanks lose out on more dps than healers do by staying in tank stance as much as possible. However, if the people in your group know what they're doing, you can have both tanks in dps stance the whole fight and still have both healers focus on dpsing.

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Thanks for pointing out the same thing I did captain obvious. Anymore in-game lessons you wish to enlighten me with?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What I asked though, is what is the other tank doing to cause 1000 more DPS than the other tank if they are both mitigating? If the answer is one is in tank stance, and the other is not, than I get that. And that is precisely why I brought up that the healer likely has to give up their own DPS to keep this tank up.

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Healer DPS on single targets will never out-damage tanks. The potential loss they suffer having to use an extra GCD is offset by the tank not losing 20% on their entire arsenal. This assumes the healers even loses anything as many attacks can be planned around HoTs.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Nope. It isn't accurate at all. Warriors get no defensive bonus from their tank stance, just better heals and more HP. the eHP works out to be about the same as the other two's tank stances in most cases, but Warriors, absolutely, 100% do NOT get defense buffs from Defiance. They'd be walking fortresses in tank stance if they did and also had more HP than the other two tanks.

EDIT: On topic, if you're in content that matters to you to clear, DPS is everyone's job. Enmity is everyone's job also, while we're on the topic.

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Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I actually see I read it wrong, and it is the damage they deal not receive.

i really should stop looking at these threads when I see um. They just... aggravate the unholy hell out of me. I can tank with out tank stance... Tank buster, WHAP. What the hell you stupid healer how come you didn't heal me... You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best. Don't make it your priority. Make a point. Ok you have less then... 40% mp left. Ok time to start thinking about conservation tactics via letting your dps go and think about healing. Shut the fuck up you don't know how to play healer... Dude... I play every class. You want to give constructive criticism after you see me at work... Go for it. My job comes first. If I'm the tank. I'll tank. I'll stance dance during lul points after a tank buster and I know I have time to switch back to tank stance for the next one. As a healer.... I'll do both healing and dps tell my mp gets to about 50%.. Then.. I drop my dps for healing until my mp gets back to about 80% then I'll dps again. And dps.. Do what you do best. Flame em if you want that's just how I play. And so far. No one has bothered to contradict my style. If it works for you. Go for it. I just wish this whole toxicity of put your balls to the walls for dps would stop.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Thanks for pointing out the same thing I did captain obvious. Anymore in-game lessons you wish to enlighten me with?

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Well, not to be rude, but you sort of did say that:

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The tank's mitigation allows me to DPS more as healer since I can spend my gcds on rocks instead of cure 2s, which in turn makes up the 1000 dps difference, and no mobs are trying to eat my face.

In any content that isn't over-geared the offense of one is traded by the offense of the other, especially 4-man.

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Which is not correct. In any content other than 4 man (multiple mobs), tank DPS will be punished harder than a healer can make up for with their own DPS if the tank sits in stance. What Bourne_Endeavor said is correct.

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Originally Posted by Misurugi

i really should stop looking at these threads when I see um. They just... aggravate the unholy hell out of me. I can tank with out tank stance... Tank buster, WHAP. What the hell you stupid healer how come you didn't heal me... You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best.

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I mean, you can take tankbusters outside of tank stance—you just need to pop a cooldown and not take it naked with zero mitigation. Tankbusters will still down tanks IN TANK STANCE if they don’t use a cooldown for it. Same thing while pulling: use your cooldowns.. Mass pulls are honestly the only time where tank stance is actually useful and/or needed. For bosses, not so much. And even then, you need to use your cooldowns in addition to tank stance for mass pulls. Tank stance alone will not save you.

Literally none of these discussions involve demanding players sacrifice the role’s primary job (i.e., tanks sacrificing tanking/cooldowns for DPS, healers sacrificing healing for DPS); they just ask that you at least try to do more than the absolute minimum (or, in the case of healer DPS, Always Be Casting as opposed to standing around idle for extended periods of time).

Perhaps I didn't fully word it correctly but. Vast majority of the time I run into superman tanks they don't feel the need to use CDs. Gotta increase that dps all the way. And, I have ran into quite alot of ppl who believe that yes.. you should sacrifice for more dps to make it as fast as possible. Them... I tend to get kicked out of those grps. I try to contribute as much as I can. But only as much as I'm able to with out taking away my cushion.