Dear Tanks

i love big pulls as a Nin. i'll normally stand in the aoe's just because Death Blossom + Blood Bath gives insane healing back (if there are enough mobs)

As caster main i also love big pulls, i just absolutely hate when tanks decide to change their minds and take off all of a sudden as i am freaking casting (especially flare)... jerks

Meanwhile, before I was playing as RDM I was playing WAR, MNK and SAM... and as MNK and SAM I loved big pulls.

... single pulls in a place like Skalla will literally put me to sleep. It nearly did when I was WAR first week it dropped since neither melee wanted to aoe or do big damage single target.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Dear tanks, pull big.

Sincerely your healer and occasionally RDM/BLM

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I will, as long as the healer is skilled enough to keep up and the DPS know how to use their AOE.

Sincerely, a tank who spent every dungeon run this weekend doing big pulls while either:
1. Dieing because healer wasn't skilled enough to keep up.
2. DPS don't know what AOEs are and spend the whole time single targeting mobs.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

So, realistically, look at what you have in the party. If your DPS are, say, MNK and DRG: pull small. If you have RDM, SAM, SMN, BLM, BRD: knock yourself out. But if you have 2 DRGs and you're wondering why it's taking so long to kill those 20 mobs you just pulled, that's on you, buddy.

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You mean dragoon...which not only got sonic thrust this expac and now hits harder per enemy per gcd with its aoe than RDM with zero drop off...then got a buff to sonic thrust to maintain its botd which enables it to use an ogcd zero drop off line aoe...which over time gets powered up into an even stronger line aoe with lotd...is bad at aoe. In all of this you have one positional which the effect of doesn't even matter if you hit it or not.

I guess it is a very good thing that my enjoyment of this game is not based upon your approval of it, right, OP?

First, let me welcome you to the game. It's the best MMO on the market by an order of magnitude, and I'm sure you'll have lots of fun now that you're done supping on your jump potion bottle.

Second, are you not one of the very same cat people and/or midgits using a fake name? And behold, you're making a "Dear [insert the blank]" thread to look tough.

i don't mind big pulls if you pull consistently. I keep getting tanks that do small pulls....OH look big pull....some more small pulls....SUPER PULL. Make up your mind.....

On a whole though, if you're going to pull big please pop cooldowns...I do like dpsing once and a while. Spam cures just aren't as fun....esp when dps...is lacking

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Originally Posted by virgil204

All because you had to prove how tough you are to a bunch of strangers using fake names dressed as cats and midgets.

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I dont do it to impress cat girls and midgets, I do it because I want to spend 15 or less minutes on a dungeon run because I'm STILL trying to get the Skalla chest pieces for all my jobs.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

Please explain to me which Is the side of a circle AOE.


But more to the point. Please explain which is the side of a circle

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The target circles are very clearly marked with a forward marker that allows anyone to discern which is the front, back and sides. If you can't determine this and know to go to a more accessible side of the mob while dodging aoe, then I am seriously starting to question whether you've actually played this at launch or not. Many things you are mentioning have been common practice since at least 2.0 launch and yet they are new and foreign concepts to you. It's been like, 4 years. Why now?

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

I will, as long as the healer is skilled enough to keep up and the DPS know how to use their AOE.

Sincerely, a tank who spent every dungeon run this weekend doing big pulls while either:
1. Dieing because healer wasn't skilled enough to keep up.
2. DPS don't know what AOEs are and spend the whole time single targeting mobs.

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Absolutly, If I would do DF with 100% randoms I would say the same. Fortunate for me I run with my wife as Healer/Tank or Healer/Dps setup so we know what we are capable of. Of course it happens we run into insecure tanks or tanks who dont know what purpose CD has in this game :)

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Sorry I just don't feel like having a 30-minute run of Skalla...

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Only 30minutes? I just finished a 45min skalla run because my DPS wanted to single target EVERYTHING regardless of how much I pulled. And they were not the best players.

I was left in awe at how low the bar could be set.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Only 30minutes? I just finished a 45min skalla run because my DPS wanted to single target EVERYTHING regardless of how much I pulled. And they were not the best players.

I was left in awe at how low the bar could be set.

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Happened to me last week the final boss in itself took 15 minutes because the 2 DPS in my group were so bad and kept dying to everything, I was on War and I had a Nin and a Rdm who refused to AoE. Turned a 15ish minute dungeon into a 45 minute dungeon because of their single target DPS and never once touched their AoEs, c'mon guys just hit the freaking button!

>Pull everything in each segment
>Double regen/pop cd on tank
>DPS aoe
>Be done in 10-15 minutes tops

Dear off-tanks.

Having a NIN in your party is not an excuse to be lazy about generating enmity, and you should not expect them to be solely responsible for keeping the boss from running rampant if the MT dies.

I ran into some idiot who acted like it was my fault this happened when he didn't provoke the boss once within the eight minutes the fight had been going at all to ensure he was second on the hate list. I'm pretty sure that not even using Shadewalker on cooldown will generate enough enmity to keep them in that position.

I understand using Shadewalker during the opener so the MT can stay in DPS stance, or using it in situations where enmity is really touchy like after the aggro wipes in OS4, but using for this purpose feels unnecessary, moreso when I've OT'd several times without a NIN in my party and had no enmity issues even if the MT died.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

snip.

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Dude. We get it. You had a bad experience, get over it. It happens. Just shrug it off and move on, Tanks are not going to stop doing big pulls, ever. People, like yourself have this weird tendency to go on these one man crusades on the forums, making matter-of-fact statements and drawing hilarious real life comparisons..to a video game.....thinking that you are somehow going to influence how people play the game and make them come to some kind of revelation that they should be doing things your way all because you had a bad experience. Get over yourself and move on. Nothing you say or do is going to overthrow the majority, especially on the forums.

There's nothing wrong with tanks doing big pulls. I do it a lot as a tank and I haven't died much due to using def cds and hate combos, healers keeping me alive, and keeping mobs facing away from everyone else (though some have aoes that will target a random person). The only times I don't do it is when/if:

1. It's on patch day and brand new to everyone (around 1-2 hours after release), including me.
2. A healer lags/dc's for any reason (bad internet, game crash).

I also participate big pulls as a healer and I know how to keep em alive and to DPS when I believe the tank is fine on HP for the time being. I spam aoes as a DPS (mostly samurai and BLM) and I know how to move out of the aoes when it pops. Most of the time as a DPS he mobs go down pretty quick. I prefer big pulls but I don't mind how the tank does it.

There are also certain groups that can kick a tank for not pulling big or anyone they believe is holding them back (healers not keeping the tank alive or DPS only doing single target attacks or not putting enough dots (RDM doesn't have any dots though)). I've seen that happen several times.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Dear off-tanks.

Having a NIN in your party is not an excuse to be lazy about generating enmity, and you should not expect them to be solely responsible for keeping the boss from running rampant if the MT dies.

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voke only puts you +1 not gives you enmity if ppl are attacking it, voke does nothing. just use your skill regardless.

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Originally Posted by EorzeaHero69

There's nothing wrong with tanks doing big pulls.

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if tank does it with no communication, and someone is new/barely over gears the content it can be an issue just saying.

ppl who vote kick a tank out for not doing big pulls.. that is just being petty. :/ more so if there was no communication.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Dear tanks, pull big.

Sincerely your healer and occasionally RDM/BLM

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Incoming FEMROE /hug.

Looking back from HW till now ... theres not a single "impossible" pull i think few rough ones for sure but as a healer i support tanks that pull a lot in one go.

Had a team yesterday in temple of the fist which pulled one at a time ... well i didnt need to heal trash pulls and it still took 27 min ... dreadful condidering my usual runs with friends are around 15ish.

To each their own but if the healer doesnt need to heal the pulls are to small.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

voke only puts you +1 not gives you enmity if ppl are attacking it, voke does nothing. just use your skill regardless.

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I'm aware of that.

The thing is, it's kind of standard for the off tank to occasionally toss a provoke at the boss at moments where taking aggro for a split second won't cause issues (And if tank swaps aren't needed) to keep themselves second on the enmity list (Or better yet, shirk the aggro onto the MT afterward so they gain even more enmity the next time they provoke, essentially causing a snowball effect for tank enmity as time passes), and this guy chose to not do that at all, so the boss naturally came after me when the MT dropped.

It's hardly the first time it happened, but other people were at least responsible enough to not start pointing fingers at me when I suggested using Provoke more often.

Dear TC

Unless the group is dying because of it, stop complaining about how tanks handle dungeons. Group pulls are a godsend if you're well-geared. Adapt, overcome, and git gud.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

when I suggested using Provoke more often.

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As a tank main, I agree with you though. Voking a boss after the MT dies isn't hard at all. Unless the encounter requires it because of certain mechanics, it's not needed for the OT to be second on the aggro list. It's extremely easy to take it back, as I have done it even without tanking stance with little impact on my DPS. Tanks have emnity multipliers to some attacks, so they can overcome the DPS generation from the damage dealers if well executed.

Lastly, shirk is an amazing tool for juggling with aggro.

For instance, even if I have a delicate line of aggro on me, the MT gets revived and we either decide if I keep MTing (they voke then shirk me) or they voke and I shirk them.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

I know pulling silly amounts of mobs in a dungeon. Makes you feel really tough.

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This. Isn't. A. Sentence. It's about more than feeling badass. It's about efficient use of time. You can't even pull "silly" amounts in most dungeons now due to gating anyhow.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

1. You are a human being. you are not tough or brave cos you run in 20 mobs and cause your group to run in after you. Even if you could do that in real life most real life army soldiers would call you dumb not brave

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Comparing a video game to real life is equally absurd.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

2. You are actually not the one that is doing anything valuable at best your spamming 1 aoe taunt and have run out of cool downs before even one mob is half way through it's health. No sirs then person actually doing the work is the healer. He is now under intense pressure to

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Holding hate & preventing the enemy from steamrolling the rest of the team isn't valuable? I guess that's new. Regardless, there's no need to spam aoe taunt more than two or three times. Only trigger happy bad tanks would run out of cooldowns that quickly, or they improperly gauged the group's DPS output. Even then, we've got plenty of self healing options, and a decent "oh shit" button for use in a pinch.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

2a. spam heal you
2b. not pull hate cos he's overhealing
2c. Heal the dps who are desperately trying to avoid the numbers does the 20 mobs are shooting out every 2 seconds

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So don't overheal? Use HoTs and shields more effectively? It's the tank's fault DPS can't dodge telegraphed ground markers?

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Originally Posted by virgil204

the melee dps actually does a lot less dos cos they spend more time avoiding aoes.

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Only if they are standing in the center of the cluster instead of cone AoEing along the edge like a pro.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

All because you had to prove how tough you are to a bunch of strangers using fake names dressed as cats and midgets.

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Honestly, while it feels good when it works, tanks DO have a responsibility to gauge the DPS ability of the group before a huge pull. Usually just looking at the HP bars at the start of the instance tells you 75% of what you need to know. It's easy to shift pulling size after 1st pull and know what the group is going to be able to handle.

With that said, it's a bit obnoxious to act like it's all the tank's fault. Sometimes it IS properly geared DPS doing shit rotations, not dodging easy stuff, and putting more burden on the healer. Sometimes it IS a healer that wants a free ride spamming 2 heal buttons, who also fails at dodging ANY ground markers.

Occasionally a tank will guess wrong about a group during the first pull resulting in a wipe. It happens. Now, if they immediately do the exact same thing, yeah, they are a dumbass. If they pull less afterward and the rest of the instance goes at a pace that works, great. Just keep in mind it is often way less about ego and more about just wanting to get the grind over with as quickly as possible, and without your whining.

I'm sorry you have had bad experience with big pulls, and I get it, it can be really stressful. Because if DPS is lacking, if tank doesn't use proper cool downs the blame goes straight to the healer. No one ever blames the DPS or tank they blame the healer. As others have mentioned you can tell the tank you don't like doing big pulls and in a perfect world they should accept that. I know that the big pull mentality is the "norm" but people need to realize not everyone is comfortable with that and it's okay to not like that. I myself sometimes like big pulls because it can be thrilling to take up the challenge that no matter what the skill or situation I'm gonna keep my party alive and it is quicker. Not everyone is like that and it's okay. Hopefully your future dungeon runs go better for you OP. Good Luck.

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Originally Posted by Lyshell

No one ever blames the DPS or tank they blame the healer.

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I can assure you this is false.

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As others have mentioned you can tell the tank you don't like doing big pulls and in a perfect world they should accept that.

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I don't like small pulls.
Why should their playstyle preferences override mine?

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Originally Posted by winsock

I can assure you this is false.


I don't like small pulls.
Why should their playstyle preferences override mine?

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Some groups its quite true....

And that's where compromise comes in....a rare trait i know.... >.> /sarcasm

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I can assure you this is false.

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A lot of the times*

Fixed. There, happy? Do you want to nitpicking some more?

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Originally Posted by Lyshell

A lot of the times*

Fixed. There, happy? Do you want to nitpicking some more?

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Winsock isn't nitpicking. There is a a perception that Healers are victims and are blamed for everything in this game and in every MMO ever. This perception is entirely false. If it were true, we would see threads and posts all over these forums and other social media making PSAs and complaint threads.

How many "Healer PSAs" have been posted (Other than the continuous DPS Healer thread on the Healer Subforum)? I haven't seen any threads calling out healers, except for one: Casting Regen prior to pulls. The outcome of that thread was, Tanks were told to "pull better". Not: "Healer's don't pre-cast Regen".

Tanks get the most heat and blame in this game, not healers. The threads that appear on these forums are proof enough.

Here are example subjects of some threads on these forums alone appeared since SB release as Tank PSAs, Tank complains, and blaming:

• Pull size PSAs and Complaint Threads (including this thread, even though it is a troll tread, people are taking it seriously)
• Using Sprint prior to first pull complaint thread
• Multiple "Not Using Defense CD Threads"
• Off Tanks not being 2nd place on the enmity chart thread in Raids/Trials
• A thread that bitched about Off Tanks being in 2nd place on the enmity chart in Raids/Trials

These are just off the top of my head.

Tell me again how often Healers are getting blamed for everything?

I always commend tanks that pull big.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Tell me again how often Healers are getting blamed for everything?

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I think it may be due to guilt. Deaths can be prevented in most cases by the healer, period. Although the reality is that Mana IS a finite resource. The healer may know that the dps just wasn't enough, or the tank just wasn't strong enough, but in the end I think most healers feel like to some degree they could have prevented it and then make it their fault. A lot of the times I've healed and we wiped, nothing was said. Just restart, cast protect, and pull again, though that pull may be smaller. No blame, no nothing, just silence. There is only one instance I can think of that I was blamed, and it was a massive pull, and one dps still chilling out at the start of the dungeon. I could not have kept that going on forever. I don't take that one personally, but others, you can't help but wonder if you could have kept them alive.

Problem is that healers don't communicate with tanks period. Some of us tanks will ask if big pulls are ok. Others just assume and make asses of them self's and healers. After a large pull wipe if a healer does NOT say anything we tanks take it as maybe he needed a warm up. If by the second wipe still happens I just take it easy. If they complain I always bring up the fact that they could not handle big pulls and I rather finish the run then get frustrated. If they complain they can always boot me and wait for another tank.

Neat. I had a SAM whine at me last night in Skalla, saying "Could you chill with the big pulls? It makes it hard to focus."

Had to double check OP's server here to make sure they weren't that same SAM. :p

Oh, and that SAM that was whining to me? I did triple their damage through the entire run. They died 7 times.

Had I been accompanied with FC folks, such a silly request would've resulted in a vote to kick. DPS are a dime a dozen. Git gud or git out.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Problem is that healers don't communicate with tanks period. Some of us tanks will ask if big pulls are ok. Others just assume and make asses of them self's and healers. After a large pull wipe if a healer does NOT say anything we tanks take it as maybe he needed a warm up.

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I won't ever say anything unless the tank looks capable and does a small pull. I'll say "Pull as many as you're comfortable with." 9 times out of 10, tank pulls everything to the gate. If we wipe and I don't say anything, its because I'm confident in a second attempt. If we wipe, I usually am aware of what caused it, and if it's something within my control. Such as I fumbled on the crossbar and hit something that I didn't mean to resulting in death, or I've been healing and the tank isn't receiving it because my dumbass was targeting myself or a dps. lol. I think if there is no communication, then assumptions should be expected. And the norm seems to be big pulls. I think that by now the playerbase should expect this to be the start and say something before they get frustrated.

I go into a lot of this content undergeared and I think the tank is taking it into consideration when doing the small pulls, but I feel confident enough to power through it.

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Originally Posted by odie

I won't ever say anything unless the tank looks capable and does a small pull. I'll say "Pull as many as you're comfortable with." 9 times out of 10, tank pulls everything to the gate. If we wipe and I don't say anything, its because I'm confident in a second attempt. If we wipe, I usually am aware of what caused it, and if it's something within my control. Such as I fumbled on the crossbar and hit something that I didn't mean to resulting in death, or I've been healing and the tank isn't receiving it because my dumbass was targeting myself or a dps. lol. I think if there is no communication, then assumptions should be expected. And the norm seems to be big pulls. I think that by now the playerbase should expect this to be the start and say something before they get frustrated.

I go into a lot of this content undergeared and I think the tank is taking it into consideration when doing the small pulls, but I feel confident enough to power through it.

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True there are some people who THINK they can tank. Common sense is dead and for the most part seems vets forget about common sense as well. Then again there are some people who also THINK they can heal. and really can't valance their casting, position, and are even under geared.

My two cents on this:

I tend to pull big in most of my dungeon runs. Pretty much the norm with the average group in end-game dungeons.

However, I pull small if the following occurs:

1. There are new people in the instance. DPS output while dodging aoes and following mechanics are most iffy as the new members learn the instance.

2. My teammates or myself and not as geared for bigger pulls. The better the gear, the more effective the pulls can be. A team effort of managing defensive cooldowns, timing of healing, and use of aoe attacks are keys to faster dungeon runs.

3. Most of my teammates request that I pull small because they might not be able to handle bigger pulls for whatever reason.

TLDR version: Everyone's mileage may vary in the end.

LOL if you're complaining now, you'd really have been complaining when brayflox hard first come out. It took skill to do large pulls there. Dungeons now are infinately more easy to do that with now than they were back then. If your party couldnt do large pulls, then it wasn't necessarily just tha tanks fault, or even, for that matter. Usually it's because your party just sucked, so do us all a favor and quit blaming the tank when you probably were the reason that the pull failed. It's not the tanks fault if you suck. Sorry.

I am a simple man,
when I met a full-pull tank(and stay alive),
I give commendation.

As a tank who doesn't mind medium or large pulls, I have to agree with the majority of people here. Same as a healer who contends with these pulls regularly (and gets really bored otherwise).

With Skalla, when I'm tanking, I generally test the first two groups of somewhat big mobs, because my Drk is only i321 at the moment. If I like what I see with the healer and DPS then I'll grab the next two groups of small mobs plus that ray. If I were just a bit more geared, I'd include the third group of small trash mobs before the boss during that same pull. That's just my way of it, for now, and I don't begrudge tanks who go all the way.

You shouldn't either. No one should. It's part of the game we all learned to play, and oh so many of us enjoy.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Some of us tanks will ask if big pulls are ok. Others just assume and make asses of them self's and healers.
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If they complain I always bring up the fact that they could not handle big pulls and I rather finish the run then get frustrated.

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Asking a healer if big pulls are okay just pins the responsibility of making those assumptions on the healer (which sucks because the tank is in a much better position to be determining the pull size). Ex: healer answers "yes" assuming the tank knows how to pull, tank only thinks they know how to pull big, tank blames healer for a wipe the tank caused.

Tanks should just assume and go. Assume your WHM is capable of roughly cure 2 spam, make a pull based on that, then adjust accordingly. Most of the time, this assumption won't impact your runtime. Most healers can spam a button, and cure II spam is usually enough for the dungeon's initial wall-to-wall pull.