is it okay to not enjoy big pulls?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Hey those are all valid points that you listed and all of those would be acceptable reasons for a tank to not pull big. However, the post I was originally replying to boiled down to "you're the tank. Just tell them that you don't want to pull big and if they don't like it they can leave." However the response to that statement should be "no, we'll just vote kick you and replace you, rather than deal with such selfish reasoning."

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Well it ends up being the same for the tank : A vote kicked tank will return instantly into a dungeon, while a group of three will wait several minutes before finding a replacement, locked in a dungeon, able to do nothing

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

snip.

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Tanks are harder to play in harder content and they also can be the most boring to play at casual level content. That's a major reason there are so few endgame tanks. That and a lot of people are under the impression that you need to be like a raid leader to play tank when this is simply untrue.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

what makes tanking in dungeons so much more stressful than any other role?

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I don't get stressed out per se, but I do find myself procrastinating a lot when I have to run on tank. Even though I enjoy tanking most of the time

1) Screw ups are more visible. As with healing. If DPS flub their rotation or accidentally get clipped by a non-lethal aoe, hardly anyone notices.

2) In dungeon content at least, DPS isn't responsible for mechanics (not that there's a lot of tank mechnics necessarily, but I want to highlight the difference between easy-mode DPS in dungeons vs higher-stress of performing well while there's actual mechanic things that need to be taken care of during raids). For DPS, at least when I used to main DRG and second MNK, dungeons were more about practicing/honing rotations. That's literally about the only thing you have to worry about as a dps in dungeons, your rotation.

3) As evidenced by this whole debate, tanks are the most polarizing role. Tank stance or dps stance? Big pulls or small pulls? Vit or Str? Threat or DPS? No other role is scrutinized to such an extent by the community at large. EVERYBODY has their own opinion of what a tank is and how it should be played, even if that person themself doesn't play tank.

There are a lot of other possible reasons that people have mentioned, and another thing to keep in mind - we are all individuals and as such handle stress in different ways, some people are more or less capable than others at dealing with stress, or find different things stressful in general.

I don't personally find it that stressful, it's more akin to how I feel about like, say, mowing the lawn. No part of my body wants to wake up early on the weekend and spend 2 hours mowing. But once I get started it's fine, and usually over before you know it. So it's kinda like that, not stressful, just:

"Do I haaavvveee to tank?",
"Yes, Whiskey. You only have War at 70"
"/tears"

Then 15 mins later it's over lol

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Well it ends up being the same for the tank : A vote kicked tank will return instantly into a dungeon, while a group of three will wait several minutes before finding a replacement, locked in a dungeon, able to do nothing

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Then that tank will potentially find a group willing to go at their pace, and the group in the dungeon can do what they need to do. They can call in a replacement from their FC or linkshells. Sometimes I even leave and rejoin on my tank. It works out for everyone to go their separate ways rather than stay unhappy in the situation together.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Wasting an extra ten minutes of people's time because u only wana pull Three adds at a time is Just wrong.

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Oh the humanity. A dungeon is taking 10 minutes longer. Whatever shall we do?

Stop whining, Jezus Christ. It's just 10 minutes. Boo hoo.

I don't personally care about the pull as a DPS, what annoys me if a tank is doing big pulls and then dies, but then continues to do big pulls even though he/she should know by now though that the party can't handle it. It just wastes more time to run back and forth. As long as you do your job, use your cool downs, I'm fine with whatever speed you want to go at. Big pulls are only faster if you know what you are doing and if DPS are doing their aoes, and the healer can handle it.

It's the same argument really for Healers doing dps, learn your job first, get comfortable with your job and then edit your play style to see how you can be more efficient. Once you know your job bigger pulls just come naturally because you want to challenge yourself. Don't stress you're the tank, you set the pace.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Stop whining, Jezus Christ. It's just 10 minutes. Boo hoo.

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10 minutes every day means 3650 minutes a year means ~60 hours a year. Even if you only run one 5 days a week, that's still around 43 hours, more than a week worth of work for a classic 8/5 job.

If that's really not a big deal to you, I'd kindly ask you to tell your employer tomorrow that you really don't mind working 40-60 hours a year extra for the same pay, he'll be very happy to hear that.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Oh the humanity. A dungeon is taking 10 minutes longer. Whatever shall we do?

Stop whining, Jezus Christ. It's just 10 minutes. Boo hoo.

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I respect that you don't value your free time that much. Please respect that I do value mine.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Oh the humanity. A dungeon is taking 10 minutes longer. Whatever shall we do?

Stop whining, Jezus Christ. It's just 10 minutes. Boo hoo.

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10 minutes longer for a single run can mean a lot.

On the average work-week day, I at most get an hour to play after getting home before I have to start food prep and cooking dinner for myself and my gf. That's about time to get in maybe 2-3 runs, so an expert roulette and maybe a leveling roulette or two. Now if each of those runs took 10 minutes more, that's 20-30 minutes extra out of my hour, or to frame it another way a third to half of my potential playtime. Those "measly 10 minutes" add up quick and if you don't have a lot of time to play to begin with it can really diminish what you can accomplish in that time.

If you're not willing to respect my time and situation and would rather be all like "oh no boo hoo, deal with it", why should I respect your situation and time?

I'm perfectly accepting and supportive if someone is unable and needs things slowed down a bit, but if they are just unwilling, well then they are being selfish and I have no sympathy for such.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Oh the humanity. A dungeon is taking 10 minutes longer. Whatever shall we do?

Stop whining, Jezus Christ. It's just 10 minutes. Boo hoo.

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How desperate do you have to be for attention to literally repeat what you posted on the first page? Sad!

Even if someone says tanking is brain dead and easy and lacking in any substantial difficulty, performing well and improving as a tank does take confidence and practice just like driving any type of vehicle. It's about being assertive and aggressive but going to the flow of what your party can handle. No one playing this game is going to improve as a tank if they do 3 mobs at a time pulls for 4 years into this game in casual content. Even if you aren't doing Savage or even EX Primals, you don't get better or improve by doing what you have been doing for a long time. You up the difficulty or you vary what you're doing to get better. As bad as it is to admit this, in my EX roulettes, I don't ask what the party can handle or how much I can pull. I do a quick gear examine and pull wall to wall for what the corridors allow. First pull of Ala Mhigo up to the gate or the last large pack in Temple of the Fist being two examples. 9/10 times on WAR or DRK when I pull everything it goes perfectly fine because I don't lose aggro on anything, I rotate CDs, and I pump in as much DPS as possible before I run out of CDs. If the rest of your party does the same thing, they'll appreciate the run going smoothly and quickly and being mildly fun, and maybe even give 2/3 Comms like is usual after my Experts.

People appreciate a tank that's aggressive, assertive, makes things quick and painless, and knows how to do his job. Because as the two most important roles in the trinity, a skilled healer or tank decides a lot of how efficient something is going to be when done. DPS matters for exactly what the acronym stands for, but if a tank can't hold aggro over auto attacks or a healer is unable to heal and even do smidgens of damage at the same time, you'll notice exactly whats wrong in the group. And while "You don't pay my sub!" is a hilarious justification for refusing to improve one's gameplay, some people don't have the willingness to go further in playing the game because it is a game. More power to those that don't want to DPS if healing or do large pulls while tanking, but there are others who value their time and do those things because it exponentially speeds things up for everyone.

Well did my dungeoning as a healer this w-e : caused 2-3 wipes, once lost because of keybind change, and 2-3 times did too much dps and didn't judge right when to heal the tank ;)
Other than that, had 2 specific encounters with tanks that wanted to pull big, but weren't good at it. Both on the lvl 61 ghost ship dungeon.

First one was a WAR. He pulled 2-3 packs at a time, few to no cd used. Kind of a nightmare to heal, had HUGE damage spike, like 80+% of his HP pool depleted in 1 GCD... We wiped once, where theres that big zombie holding two coffins as he pulled both packs. Right before the last boss I tought about checking him : full ilvl 255 HQ grey gear (it was SB MSQ gear I think) : well, we were gone so far, so I didn't tell him anything...

Second one was a DRK with 63-65 gear, so he felt confident I guess... so much that he didn't use a single CD throughout the dungeon - did ask him to but never got an answer. And he pulled as much as he could : also a nightmare to heal... We wiped on the last wraith mini boss : he had also pulled along the two doggies right before, lost aggro and didn't notice. Boy do those dogs hit hard on a cloth dps... Situation got out of control.

Those two tanks clearly had no idea how hard it was to heal them and were probably thinking they were doing good since they kept pulling like that the whole time.

All in all those dungeon would have ran smoother if the tanks had pulled one pack at a time. I would have been able to support more with dps, as the dps weren't that bad, and made the healing hell less longer.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So I've been practicing drk and decided to start trying out bigger pulls. The first try was a disaster. My healer couldn't keep up and became hostile and left along with the rest of my group shattering my confidence. I tried again and did better the second time and got a nice pep talk from my second group.

However despite getting better at bigger pulls I just can't say I enjoy them. Their honestly stressful and not fun at all. I know the a big part of tanking is setting the pace of the dungeon and every dps and their mother wants to rush a dungeon but honestly I don't.

I guess I'm looking for some advice from the more veteran tanks.

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Play the way you want to play and feel comfortable with. :D Some days I do the big pulls other days I don't.

PLD was my first tank, and I was a rather careful tank at first.

Later I leveled up Warrior, and have grown ever more bloodthirsty ever since. The addition of Deliverance, Fell Cleave and Decimate may have played into that, and later the skills added in Stormblood got me frothing from the mouth.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

It's a matter of responsability, pacing choice, mistakes that will impact the whole group and that no other player will be able to deal with.

A dps does shit ? Well he dies, and the team continue even if he is dead.

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As far as a dungeon goes tanks are by far the easiest to play, not only do you have extremely high health compared to everyone else you have an ultimate move. Why are people using holohome, I spelled that wrong, and hg as some emergency buttons if you have done a dungeon before you know you can plan your pulls around it. As a main tank now I two have tank anxiety but thats in raids, or in ex trials, but in dungeons its literally nothin to be afraid of if u actually read your tool tips. If you read your tool tips and I mean all skills you would go hmm how many df cool downs do I have as a tank how long do they last.

How many aoe skills do I have see this is essential, if someone mains a dps and using aoe on a dps then how could you not do the same on tank or healers. Same rules apply on every job as far as trash mobs go, I guess people tend to forget that aoe is a thing when switching in between each roll. There is litreally nothin to tankin a dungeon Ill give examples, your on pali basicly flash go to next mob flash go to next mob, gather them up scorn, spam total eclipse until adds die whats exactly hard about that. Samething on drk pop a cool down unleash move to next mob, unleashe again, place salted earth down pop blood price, spam abysmal drain, get mp back up spam some more abysmal drain. Its very easy to tank a dungeon , I think some people just cant bothered to use tool tips is the main issue. But your last part I still have no idea why people dont play tanks I can see healer, but I honestly the more that I play realize that playing dps well is the hardest thing to do in the game while the other roles may have more responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Dont have friends*

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same dont feel bad haha

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Originally Posted by Zojha

10 minutes every day means 3650 minutes a year means ~60 hours a year. Even if you only run one 5 days a week, that's still around 43 hours, more than a week worth of work for a classic 8/5 job.

If that's really not a big deal to you, I'd kindly ask you to tell your employer tomorrow that you really don't mind working 40-60 hours a year extra for the same pay, he'll be very happy to hear that.

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Withouth considering 10min waste on a 30min run is nothing (as it's 33% to 50% of the time in the dungeon), If you start to consider the game as a job where everything must be done as little much as possible, I have quite bad news for you.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Withouth considering 10min waste on a 30min run is nothing (as it's 33% to 50% of the time in the dungeon), If you start to consider the game as a job where everything must be done as little much as possible, I have quite bad news for you.

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Then maybe raiding is not for you? Play the game however you want. All I can say is please don't waste other people's time if you don't plan to improve. It's like you are telling dota/lol players that ranks don't matter.

I love improving and absolutely hate people who just want to raid but don't improve which is why I only tend to help those people who I know I can help.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Then maybe raiding is not for you? Play the game however you want. All I can say is please don't waste other people's time if you don't plan to improve. It's like you are telling dota/lol players that ranks don't matter.

I love improving and absolutely hate people who just want to raid but don't improve which is why I only tend to help those people who I know I can help.

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Pretty much out of subject. Raiding and feeling the game as a second job are two different things, and you cannot compare a job / paid situation to a gametime, freetime, supposedly enjoying time.

If you're enjoying the game as much as a half assed job, the only answer is : don't play.

You're paying to play this game. You do not get paid to play. Everything in game is just for your amusement.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

As far as a dungeon goes tanks are by far the easiest to play, not only do you have extremely high health compared to everyone else you have an ultimate move. Why are people using holohome, I spelled that wrong, and hg as some emergency buttons if you have done a dungeon before you know you can plan your pulls around it. As a main tank now I two have tank anxiety but thats in raids, or in ex trials, but in dungeons its literally nothin to be afraid of if u actually read your tool tips. If you read your tool tips and I mean all skills you would go hmm how many df cool downs do I have as a tank how long do they last.

How many aoe skills do I have see this is essential, if someone mains a dps and using aoe on a dps then how could you not do the same on tank or healers. Same rules apply on every job as far as trash mobs go, I guess people tend to forget that aoe is a thing when switching in between each roll. There is litreally nothin to tankin a dungeon Ill give examples, your on pali basicly flash go to next mob flash go to next mob, gather them up scorn, spam total eclipse until adds die whats exactly hard about that. Samething on drk pop a cool down unleash move to next mob, unleashe again, place salted earth down pop blood price, spam abysmal drain, get mp back up spam some more abysmal drain. Its very easy to tank a dungeon , I think some people just cant bothered to use tool tips is the main issue. But your last part I still have no idea why people dont play tanks I can see healer, but I honestly the more that I play realize that playing dps well is the hardest thing to do in the game while the other roles may have more responsibility.

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Dps only worry about themselves. Low need of communication, little interaction with other, and pretty much no way to screw the whole team or save the whole team.

It s a selfish job and even with raid buffs, it won't change. People playing dps want a fast paced self looking role, with little to no responsability.
Is it hard ? As much as any pushing button job.

Good dps are a big addition to a team, but their only difference is that they have an ununding curve, while tank and dps catch a minimal or optimal gameplay and their role is fit.
With tank and heals dpsing, you can add an unending curve to every role, even if less rewarding, thus every role can be as tricky as dps.

Yet, if a dps dies no one bats an eye and little to no stress is put on the team, and they are plentyfull because of this.

No responsability.

It takes a bit of getting used to, mostly with cooldown rotation and how to not die (DA+AbyssalDrain is always fun) it also comes down to your DPS and healer, sometimes your DPS will be unable to perform elementary level math and AoE in bigger groups and some healers struggle with bigger packs, all comes down to group compatibility.

Honestly, doing massive pulls with friends and stomping dungeons beneath your heels is incredibly satisfying when done right.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

snip

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dps being a "selfish" role is a very casual way of looking at things. and I mean no disrespect with that statement either, simply that that sort of thinking only applies to casual content (e.g. normal raids and primals, dungeons) and can easily be applied to the other two roles in the same content.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I really don't get this viewpoint, and a lot of tanks seem to have it. You're essentially playing a team based game, why do you think your feelings matter more than the rest of the party's? "I don't want to" isn't a valid reason to not do big pulls when the other three people "want to."

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I definitely agree. It's not the tank who "sets the pace", it's the party. This is a team game. If the healer and DPS asks you to pull big, the least you can do is try it. Nobody likes a slacker, tanks included.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

dps being a "selfish" role is a very casual way of looking at things. and I mean no disrespect with that statement either, simply that that sort of thinking only applies to casual content (e.g. normal raids and primals, dungeons) and can easily be applied to the other two roles in the same content.

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Yes and no. While synergy and buff coordination include more awareness and less selfishness, it's still miles behind the two other roles and quite poor in responsability or pressure either.

However, how much of the playerbase will run week1 kills ? Are we truly speaking of casual versus dedicated, or majority vs minority ?

Since the topic is about dungeon pulls and the answer specifically concerning the hardness of jobs and fewer main roles.

You cannot take 5% of the playerbase to conclude : dpsing is harder, when 95% of players avoid tank and healers roles because it's too much responsability to have something more than yourself to manage.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Yes and no. While synergy and buff coordination include more awareness and less selfishness, it's still miles behind the two other roles and quite poor in responsability or pressure either.

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but ur literally pressing a button or two tankin even still is easier in a dungeon. The only time a tank really even has to fear death in a dungeon is if they are doing big pulls. while a dps can mess up one or two mechanics and still die on a dungeon boss. Same for a healer , in the 24 mans it was way harder to not die as a dps than it was tank even if i messed up a mechanic or two.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

but ur literally pressing a button or two tankin even still is easier in a dungeon. The only time a tank really even has to fear death in a dungeon is if they are doing big pulls. while a dps can mess up one or two mechanics and still die on a dungeon boss. Same for a healer , in the 24 mans it was way harder to not die as a dps than it was tank even if i messed up a mechanic or two.

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Literally doesn't seem to mean what you think it means, really. Then how do you explain the low pop of tanks ?

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Then how do you explain the low pop of tanks ?

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EGO!!! Big numbers and flashy effects!

*ponders if DPS only players are insecure about something* :rolleyes:

Being a new player to this game I picked warrior as my first class. Now I'll admit I do not like big pulls, it is what it is, but that's life. You just have to learn to deal with it, every class will have mechanics you won't like about it honestly I'm less of a fan of stance dancing than I am big pulls though.

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Originally Posted by Hookla

Being a new player to this game I picked warrior as my first class. Now I'll admit I do not like big pulls, it is what it is, but that's life. You just have to learn to deal with it, every class will have mechanics you won't like about it honestly I'm less of a fan of stance dancing than I am big pulls though.

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Just be ready for the SALT then. If you still have your Sprout icon, you will be given a large amount of slack.

If you were my tank, I would not care. The run will be a little slower but meh. I will likely never see you again. So, the effort it would take to "complain" about your tanking style would be longer than just enduring it until the run is over.
Other players though, ya, they will whine, complain, berate, kick you, leave, etc... for such an insignificant thing as a 7 minute longer run.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Then how do you explain the low pop of tanks ?

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Because underperforming tanks stand out a lot more than the other roles even though tanking is incredibly easy to do decently. Average players can easily notice when a tank loses aggro, when they're slow to pull or when they don't pop cooldowns, but it's not as easy for them to notice a NIN that doesn't use Huton, a BLM that doesn't keep up AF3/Enochian, or a WHM that only spams Cure II. Especially when they don't have those other jobs leveled.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Because underperforming tanks stand out a lot more than the other roles even though tanking is incredibly easy to do decently.

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That doesn't seem to make much of a difference - Even in games where DPS are on perma-CC duty and failure is obvious by the fact the enemy is not stunned/electrified/a sheep or whatever, DPS dominate the population.

Even in single-player games where you are in full control of the entire party, people prefer to let disposable summoned creatures or the least liked character of the party be the group's tank. "He's useless, dump him full of Endurance and armor, we'll use him as cannon fodder.". It's a punching bag you throw at the enemy in the hopes that they will attack it instead of actually valuable targets and a sacrificial goat you throw at traps because it won't be missed if it dies.

It really isn't in any way surprising most people rather not fulfill that role themselves. It's most commonly a role you give to those characters you deem worthless and people typically don't identify with such. It takes a lot of glorification to make it sound remotely appealing. And because of that, tanks have always been a niché appeal, no matter how the playstyle, difficulty and responsibilities within the group turned out.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That doesn't seem to make much of a difference - Even in games where DPS are on perma-CC duty and failure is obvious by the fact the enemy is not stunned/electrified/a sheep or whatever, DPS dominate the population.

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ha i honestly havent a clue cause if you look at something like xenos all tank savage runs and primal runs, it shows the power of a tank at least in this game and it seems they are actually the strongest job in the game. But even still its undesired as someone who plays every job I really dont understand the appeal of dps over the other rolls. Its nothing that stands out to me that seems so amazing that Id rather not play the other two rolls but maybe thats just me. Especially considering the 30 min wait times dps have, I dont see how busy people can even tolerate this its def not that amazing to wait 30 mins just to do a dungeon just so I can play dps only I guess its something Ill never understand.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

...

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Have you ever even pulled a group of like 10 mobs, used Inner Release > Berserk > Decimate 6 times in a row?!

https://i.imgur.com/etUJHB6.jpg

You need to at least learn how to do big pulls and be comfortable with it, you don't have to enjoy every single second of it. If you have a party that wants to do big pulls and is capable of it, it's not really your place to hold the party hostage just because you don't feel like it. Don't be selfish. Though I don't really pug often (and I definitely don't pug as a tank, no thanks), so I guess protocol would be to ask at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Have you ever even pulled a group of like 10 mobs, used Inner Release > Berserk > Decimate 6 times in a row?!

https://i.imgur.com/etUJHB6.jpg

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Kinky.....

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It's most commonly a role you give to those characters you deem worthless and people typically don't identify with such.

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really? i picked tanking because i wanted to be the protagonist. the tank is the one who trades blows with the big bad. the tank is the most prominent and leaderly member of the group.

dps are just some sneaky backstabbers.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

You need to at least learn how to do big pulls and be comfortable with it, you don't have to enjoy every single second of it. If you have a party that wants to do big pulls and is capable of it, it's not really your place to hold the party hostage just because you don't feel like it. Don't be selfish. Though I don't really pug often (and I definitely don't pug as a tank, no thanks), so I guess protocol would be to ask at the beginning.

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So let me get this straight: theoretically, I would be being selfish for not wanting to pull big, because eirher I or the healer am not geared or am otherwise unconfortable in doing big pulls, but you aren't being selfish in demanding I pull big. Right. Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

So let me get this straight: theoretically, I would be being selfish for not wanting to pull big, because eirher I or the healer am not geared or am otherwise unconfortable in doing big pulls, but you aren't being selfish in demanding I pull big. Right. Gotcha.

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Undergeared or underskilled is a whole other factor, and you know it. This is about wants, pure and simple.

And when it comes to wants, there is one rule: majority rules. If 3 people want a speedrun, and you don't, it's time to be an adult and go along with them.

And, generally, that's how DF goes. I think I've had one or two groups over my career that really wanted to take it slow for some reason. I've had plenty that couldn't handle big pulls, but again, that's an issue of can't, not of won't. Adjust to what your team can handle naturally, but the goal of any content is the same: OPTIMIZE it. That means big pulls, it means AoE rotations, it means Healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Undergeared or underskilled is a whole other factor, and you know it. This is about wants, pure and simple.

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Except it's not. The OP, at the time if posting this, was underleveled and, as is the case with leveling a tank, relatively undergeared. Regardless of whether or not you can handle pulls in lower level content, he was having issues with larger pulls. Once a tank hits Bardam's Mettle, too, they're no longer going to be able to pull big until they get at-level greens or HQ whites, because the mobs there hit like trucks. But jerks like you, like so many of the DPS I personally have seen, don't care; yiu're too focused on getting everything done nownownownow, and screw what the tank thinks or is capable of.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Except it's not. The OP, at the time if posting this, was underleveled and, as is the case with leveling a tank, relatively undergeared. Regardless of whether or not you can handle pulls in lower level content, he was having issues with larger pulls. Once a tank hits Bardam's Mettle, too, they're no longer going to be able to pull big until they get at-level greens or HQ whites, because the mobs there hit like trucks. But jerks like you, like so many of the DPS I personally have seen, don't care; yiu're too focused on getting everything done nownownownow, and screw what the tank thinks or is capable of.

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Capable of and thinks are totally different. One matters, the other probably doesn't. What a party CAN do is extremely relevant. Big pulls when undergeared or with a crappy team only slows you down, the opposite of what you want. What someone WANTS to do is totally different and again comes down to majority.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Capable of and thinks are totally different. One matters, the other probably doesn't. What a party CAN do is extremely relevant. Big pulls when undergeared or with a crappy team only slows you down, the opposite of what you want. What someone WANTS to do is totally different and again comes down to majority.

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I like how you latch onto one itty bitty statement on my post and disregard anything else I said, and simply handwaving my issues away as something that "probably doesn't" matter.