Tanks, please use buffs

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Holy Spirit consumes a massive amount of pld's mp and can proc 3-4 times before mp gone.
Sheltron is not a free use at will but depends on your oath gauge and kills half of it when used.
Requiescat's potency decreases with MP (mp is the thing you're burning with Holy Spirit).
Hallowed is more an emergency utility than a feature to use when available, but your suggested use is good if you're confident your party is good too. I'll not do it with PUGs.

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Only bad tanks think hallowed is an emergency cooldown, it's a planned cooldown. Even in end-game savage, you have to plan to use it for certain mechanics like back in A12S or even now in O4S. This goes all the way back to Coil days, there are only so many cooldowns you have up for the duration of such a fight, and Hallowed Ground is one of the options that must be used.

Holy Sprit builds your Oath gauge, which in-turn allows Sheltron procs. I was spamming that Sheltron procs in Bardam's like it was no one's business. There is no excuse not to use the skill at-will, it's very potent. MP management just becomes an issue if you have to plan an Oath change.

https://i.imgur.com/cMjwGHA.jpg
(Sorry I don't have anything serious to contribute right now.)

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Originally Posted by Taika

https://i.imgur.com/cMjwGHA.jpg
(Sorry I don't have anything serious to contribute right now.)

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take my upvote and get out.

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Originally Posted by Taika

https://i.imgur.com/cMjwGHA.jpg
(Sorry I don't have anything serious to contribute right now.)

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...That is the single greatest(next only to the one that just says "come on" as the thread title) order that could appear.

These posts never will solve the problem since the vast majority of players (at least according data from some poll a while back) don't even use the forums and so will likely never read them. Especially the tank, healer, dps, moogle that made your run difficult. All you can ever really do is speak to them ingame and if they don't improve, then don't play with them again if at all possible.

Generally after having an annoying dungeon or raid I'll vent to my friends on discord or in FC chat and then move on since I'll most likely never see that player again. I dunno or maybe at least bump one of the hundred other threads in a similar vein if for no other reason we can see that players actually don't change even with all the whining.

Why should I use CD's when healers say they can just get away with only casting a regen every trash pull? Or they say that healing is secondary in dungeons.

If it's that easy, then Def cds are only for savage content.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Why should I use CD's when healers say they can just get away with only casting a regen every trash pull? Or they say that healing is secondary in dungeons.

If it's that easy, then Def cds are only for savage content.

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So your logic is, that if healers get by with little healing, and are able to and will focus on pushing high DPS to help the party, you should sabotage their effective play by forcing them to focus harder on the part of their toolkit that (in that situation) is less useful to your party? :confused:

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Holy Spirit consumes a massive amount of pld's mp and can proc 3-4 times before mp gone.

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5 times. And it's one of the strongest skills and should be used. If you're in Shield Oath, that recovers your guage, making the MP restoration thing a joke. If you're on Sword Oath (Which typically happens on bosses), you fill your guage steadily. Your MP should be full by the time Requiescat is ready again.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Sheltron is not a free use at will but depends on your oath gauge and kills half of it when used.

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Excuses. If you're doing big pulls, the gauge should fill faster, you even can use Bulwark to fill it even faster.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Requiescat's potency decreases with MP (mp is the thing you're burning with Holy Spirit).

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It doesn't decrease. If you use it at 80%+, you gain a temporal buff for all the Holy Spirits/Clemencies you cast for the duration of said buff.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Hallowed is more an emergency utility than a feature to use when available, but your suggested use is good if you're confident your party is good too. I'll not do it with PUGs.

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Wrong, as other pointed out, this should be used on big pulls. It's not an emergency cooldown, it's an actual cooldown that reduces the damage you take to 0. For 10 seconds! It should be used, for instance, on the very first big pull on any dungeon, that way you'll get it available again later on for another big pull.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

I see this a lot, usually WAR for some reason. The best I can think is they are used to being unkillable monsters and still play like it for some reason. PLD tend to be better since they have damage reduction on their rotation and DRK are hit or miss.

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As of 4.0 Rage of Halone no longer decreases enemies' strength just like Warrior's Storm's Path weaponskill no longer decreases damage dealt. The only form of innate mitigation PLD has is the pacify from shield swipe, the stun from shield bash, and the blind from flash. These are all soft CC as they're unreliable outside of their niche situations.

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Originally Posted by Taika

https://i.imgur.com/cMjwGHA.jpg

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Nice. lol
10

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Why should I use CD's when healers say they can just get away with only casting a regen every trash pull? Or they say that healing is secondary in dungeons.

If it's that easy, then Def cds are only for savage content.

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Originally Posted by Taika

So your logic is, that if healers get by with little healing, and are able to and will focus on pushing high DPS to help the party, you should sabotage their effective play by forcing them to focus harder on the part of their toolkit that (in that situation) is less useful to your party? :confused:

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The entire circular debate summed up in two posts.

It basically amounts to, "Why should I hold all the responsibility? I want to push DPS, too!"

The answer is you shouldn't! It's designed to be shared between both roles. Tanks weave CDs and emnity skills between their combos, so healers can get plenty of their DPS spells in between healing, in return letting the tank have the breathing room to do their stronger DPS combo, which in return kills mobs faster and giving the healer less mana strain, and time to save a DPS if need be.

It's not even hard to do, guys.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The entire circular debate summed up in two posts.

It basically amounts to, "Why should I hold all the responsibility? I want to push DPS, too!"

The answer is you shouldn't! It's designed to be shared between both roles. Tanks weave CDs and emnity skills between their combos, so healers can get plenty of their DPS spells in between healing, in return letting the tank have the breathing room to do their stronger DPS combo, which in return kills mobs faster and giving the healer less mana strain, and time to save a DPS if need be.

It's not even hard to do, guys.

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This is exactly right.

There is a funny synergy that happens between tanks and healers.

The better a tank is at mitigating damage, means that less healing needs to be done.
The less healing the healer has to do, the more damage they can push out.
The more damage that can be pushed out, the faster mobs die, which means the less cooldowns a tank will need to use per pull, and further - the less healing that needs to be done.

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A comment regarding Holy Spirit usage...
If you guys are talking about using Holy Spirit on big pulls - you're wasting a GCD.
That 400 potency under shield oath is much weaker than an Eclipse on 4 or more targets.
You're better off using that GCD on an extra Eclipse than you are using Holy Spirit.
Sure, once you get down to 3 or less targets, Holy Spirit spam away.

Further on this, if you for some reason want to consume your mana in some way, then the blind from Flash acts as a form of mitigation.
Further on this again is that if you Clemency yourself, that's one heal a healer doesn't have to do on a big pull - meaning an extra GCD for Gravity/Holy - which is even more damage than an Eclipse or Holy Spirit.
I can't speak much from a WHM or SCH perspective (apparently they complain about tanks self-healing due to lillies and excogs), but when your healer is an AST, Clemency is a great tool to keep those Gravity spams going.

As for Sheltron - it only works on one hit, so on big pulls it is a pretty tiny mitigation tool. I am not saying it's not worth using, should be spamming it whenever you have the Oath however my point is that if you are using Holy Spirit for oath gauge build on a big pull - you're kind of wasting your time.

There is no denying that Holy Spirit is PLD's Fell Cleave in a boss fight - however against a big stack of mobs you should just be spamming Eclipse.

Yeah, I meant the Holy Spirit on boss fights. It's no use to spam it on big pulls. Potency wise, it's a waste. You wanna go FoF + Total Eclipse spam + CoS on cd. However, allow me to point out that Sheltron is not only about blocking 1 hit. It also restores your MP upon blocking, which allows you to have some extra MP for either the next pull or for more Clemencies. Since you're dealing with multiple targets, it's easier and faster to recover MP that way, instead of single targetting riot blades.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Look.. I am going to be brutally honest. If you don't use mitigation skills while running dungeons, you're bad.

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Lol, you're a drg. Literally the last person to call anyone bad. Don't worry about the tank, just continue counting the pixels on the floor next to where your corpse is while the healer debates on wasting MP rezzing you just so you can die again.

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Originally Posted by Krimzon

Lol, you're a drg. Literally the last person to call anyone bad. Don't worry about the tank, just continue counting the pixels on the floor next to where your corpse is while the healer debates on wasting MP rezzing you just so you can die again.

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Someone doesn't want the DRG Damage buff.

Also, while we're on the topic of judging someone's profile:

https://i.imgur.com/L9uzxjB.png

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Originally Posted by Xetagonist

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Don't forget Direct Hit over Strength in the accessories. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Don't forget Direct Hit over Strength in the accessories. ;)

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I find the Piety meld on a TANK gear the biggest offender tbh.

Hey, at least you still benefit from DH as a Tank.

I'm honestly cringing a bit at that piety 6 meld.

Considering you a quick to dismiss a Dragoon for calling BS, is all that piety so you can clemancy spam yourself from chasing off healers?

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Originally Posted by Xetagonist

https://i.imgur.com/L9uzxjB.png

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Doesn't piety only affect healers now? Why would they meld that?

I used to Main warrior. I just started playing SB about a week ago because well I was in the hospital with 2 broken legs. But I kind of like playing WHM and other healers when Tanks are lazy. It make the jobs more about healing.. and less about DPSing.
But I do get where your coming from and when I do play tank.. I play them correctly.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Considering you a quick to dismiss a Dragoon for calling BS, is all that piety so you can clemancy spam yourself from chasing off healers?

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Piety doesn't even affect Tanks because it's a job specific stat for healers only. This guy is absolute bonkers especially when he goes off with that remark about DRGs.

Also, that guy only has DRK maxed out so all the more I'm puzzled (and amused) at the illogical piety meld.

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

Doesn't piety only affect healers now? Why would they meld that?

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Dunno. Ask the genius himself :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Wrong, as other pointed out, this should be used on big pulls. It's not an emergency cooldown, it's an actual cooldown that reduces the damage you take to 0. For 10 seconds! It should be used, for instance, on the very first big pull on any dungeon, that way you'll get it available again later on for another big pull.

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Man, as I too pointed out, that is true when you are running with your friends, your static, and your cat. If I do something like that on a PUG, after 10s I am died and we wipe, because <insert anything here from sleepy healer, sleepy dps, I play how I want guy, etc>.

But you (and other) still stick on the perfect use of skills for savage content with your static. Ho wait... Balmung... ok you're right.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Man, as I too pointed out, that is true when you are running with your friends, your static, and your cat. If I do something like that on a PUG, after 10s I am died and we wipe, because <insert anything here from sleepy healer, sleepy dps, I play how I want guy, etc>.

But you (and other) still stick on the perfect use of skills for savage content with your static. Ho wait... Balmung... ok you're right.

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How is the server I'm from relevant to the discussion? Ah, yeah. Ad hominem.

Look, I understand you had bad experiences with people in DF; but you're generalizing to the point you're blocking yourself from using actual useful skills, specially on big pulls. It's part of your cd management. I'm not buying that, on every run, you get matched with baddies. I really don't know how often you use DF (I use it a lot, 5k comms) and I tell ya: These cases, at least on my end, were a minority. And what if you used it and died? It pretty much helps you to test the waters, mistakes can happen, maybe the healer is not the greatest, maybe the DPS are so bad that they take forever to kill everything. Maybe they are all great and you burn the trash down with cds to spare for the next pull. There's really no reason to hold back on cooldowns, specially if you want a fast and smooth run. It's your job as a tank to mitigate as much damage as you can.

Heh, as a tank I know to use them all too well, and yet, when I heal or dps I always seem to get the tank who forgets or just doesn't bother using the buffs.

Best to pull, grab what you're going to fight, gruop them all together and THEN pop your cooldowns.. not all at once, but one at a time, as one expires, pop the next.
Now, as I do prefer tanking as a PLD, BIG pulls tend to be easier with them as PLD does have that what 15-20sec invincible one, then I follow it with the other 2-3 in sequence of strongest to weakest. Typically all but the worst of healers rarely have issues with a pull using that sequence.

But, one thing that all tanks should know, is to know your limit, not all tanks are equal, just because you see someone make a pull, doesn't mean you can make that same pull, don't be afraid to pull lighter. Just because many people are in a rush to get thru everything, doesn't mean you need to.

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Originally Posted by Krimzon

Lol, you're a drg. Literally the last person to call anyone bad. Don't worry about the tank, just continue counting the pixels on the floor next to where your corpse is while the healer debates on wasting MP rezzing you just so you can die again.

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Eh? Who says I am a DRG?

My DRG is probably my least geared role....

Here is a link to my lodestone just to show you I have nothing to hide..
click

You can potentially look me up on a certain log website as well if you like.

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Originally Posted by Xetagonist

Piety doesn't even affect Tanks because it's a job specific stat for healers only. This guy is absolute bonkers especially when he goes off with that remark about DRGs.

Also, that guy only has DRK maxed out so all the more I'm puzzled (and amused) at the illogical piety meld.



Dunno. Ask the genius himself :rolleyes:

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Incredible.
DRK have as good/better methods to refresh MP than actual healers. If you feel so mana starved on the job you feel compelled to use one of those clusters on Piety, then that's probably a bad sign.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

It's your job as a tank to mitigate as much damage as you can.

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Funny you say this, because people will argue that it's also the tanks and healers jobs to dps.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Funny you say this, because people will argue that it's also the tanks and healers jobs to dps.

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How is that relevant in any way to what is being said here? Besides, It's not because you have the responsability to do one thing that it prevents you from having other responsabilities.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Funny you say this, because people will argue that it's also the tanks and healers jobs to dps.

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Like Fyce said, no one is even implying that tanks or healers shouldn't DPS. Do I need to reiterate what we just said on the last page? If tanks weave in CDs, they can use their better damage skills and still have enough defense that a healer can weave in damage spells between heals. It goes in a nice circle.

My God, why is it so baffling to others that everyone doing their jobs correctly helps everyone do their job better? Team effort.

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Originally Posted by Xetagonist

https://i.imgur.com/L9uzxjB.png

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My brain. It hurts. Why would someone waste a pie like that ;_;

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Originally Posted by Ash_

My brain. It hurts. Why would someone waist a pie like that ;_;

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It's not a waist piece, it's a chest piece. Oh wait...

Back on topic, I think I recall, very vaguely, that there were some macros floating around that activated the cooldowns for the player. If I remember correctly, it appeared in 2.0, perhaps from some WoW players, I'm not sure. I've forgotten what the reason was behind people writing those macros, but perhaps it had something to do with the fact that in 2.0 there were no such thing as big pulls all the way until the notorious full Darklight wall-to-wall pulls and sac runs. May have something to do with that kind of circumstances, maybe?

On a more constructive note, perhaps it's a good idea to have separate threads on damage mitigation effects for tanks, and a pinned index thread, living in the Tank sub-forum? But I suppose the forum here lacks someone to keep the index thread updated.