Again the regen thing! Wasn't it gone and done?

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Or the healer could delay the regen until after the pull. Seems a lot simpler.

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This is correct, zfz is not.

The problem is you are assuming how the healer is positioned, and how they run. Simply tell them not to regen for prepull so they do not know NOT to do it when it can cause wipes.

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Originally Posted by otarolgam

Any tank worth their salt knows how to adapt to the "pregen" shit, yes.

But in terms of speeding things up and keeping it all streamlined?

Tanks: Aggro Management > Defensive Buffs > DPS
Healers: Healing > DPS > Aggro Management
DPS: DPS/Offensive Buffs > Aggro Management

Tanks, design-wise, are supposed to be the ones to take care of most of the aggro management. Healers and DPS can help with aggro reduction actions, but it's mostly Tanks doing to work.

If Tanks are constantly getting pregen'd, they're losing time trying to get things in order as they move along, getting all of the mobs under control.

I know it all amounts to a matter of a few seconds, but it's still seconds of precious time that the whole party gets to keep, to start doing something else when the dungeon is finished.

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Yes, tanks can handle it but the thing is it causes too much problems for the flow yes (in some cases can cause wipes, you can't expect all tanks to know. I told tanks to click off regen/meidca from boss kill and they go face pull to wipe us)

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

I've seen it more and more as well. When called out, the healer usually tells the tank to git gud, or "no other tank has complained."

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Becuase other tanks just adapt lol it's not to hard and it just avoids the drama of "my sub" and what not all you have to do is click the HoT to remove it or simply be ready to pop your aoe enmity skill quicker and move on this isn't a real issue :/

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Becuase other tanks just adapt lol it's not to hard and it just avoids the drama of "my sub" and what not all you have to do is click the HoT to remove it or simply be ready to pop your aoe enmity skill quicker and move on this isn't a real issue :/

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If someone tells you to stop doing something like that, then maybe you should stop doing it?
No one needs the snarky remarks like Khaidal had said from a healer...Just stop? Lol.
"No one else has complained" but not everyone is that same person.

My thing is that it's just unnecessary to do. Nothing to do with the Almighty MUH SUB meme.
Just...stop making things harder than they need to be? I mean...Still dunno why we're
arguing about this.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

You see, this is what I've been talking about. If you have trouble pulling this pack with regen on you, you need to rethink how you pull and learn to pull properly.

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Just for the record, that picture and commentary were in response to someone saying that you shouldn't use your Tomahawk/Shield Lob/Unmend.

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^Ilenya clarified this I noticed. Thank you.

If you look at the person I quoted in that post they made a statement saying you should never use ranged attack and you can always facepull and use flash/unleash/overpower and will get hate on everything in one GCD. Obviously since you seem competent at tank you understand that their claim is false too right? You can't just facepull every pull in the game and use one AoE and expect to hit all the mobs. Like I said some pulls the mobs are too spread out.

So I showed them with a screenshot that some pulls the mobs are too far apart to run in and hit them all with one AoE GCD. The whole point of that post and screenshot was only about that....somehow I think you didn't read it since you seem to think I cannot handle the pull, but that wasn't even what I said or what I was talking about.

If you read my posts I am talking about this pregen situation as being "ANNOYING" not that it is impossible to deal with. I can adapt to a healer prepull regening, but I am saying I shouldn't have to and the annoyance factor makes me really hate it.

This isn't about being a good tank. It is physically impossible for a tank to get all the mobs on them in one GCD for some pulls in this game so regen is just going to make mobs run away to the healer because they overhealed before any damage even went out.

It's annoying. It's pointless aggro. It's pointless overheal. You cannot "git gud" on tank to fix this because you will ALWAYS 100% lose hate to prepull regen if the mobs in the pull are too spread out. It is impossible to stop it if the healer casted regen on you just as you pull.

Would you cast Cure I on a tank just as they are pulling even though they are full HP? Sounds pointless right? All it does is just get you hate on the mobs the tank hasn't hit yet due to GCD limitations. Same as using Regen right on pull when you could have waited 3 more seconds until the tank hit all mobs once. If the healer is worried about wasting a GCD they can throw one DoT on the mob the tank hit first.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Do you demand healers to not regen so you can always get to the ranged mob first

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I don't want healers prepull regening me in any situation so I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Wait three seconds and then regen after I have hit all the mobs then suddenly it doesn't matter what mob you pull first. You can tomahawk and group them and overpower then the healer can regen the tank and then you are done. The healer won't get hate and I won't have to waste GCDs trying to aim overpower on mobs that are chasing a healer running around like a chicken because they have hate.

I mean Brayflox is a terrible example to use to defend prepull regen. Why would you even need to prepull regen in a level 34 dungeon...it just reaches a new level of utter pointlessness and useless aggro that serves no purpose except to annoy the tank.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

instead of always having to rely on other team members to create the perfect situation for you

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Never asked for that; not sure why you think I did. Despite what you obviously think of me I am actually pretty competent on tank even though it isn't my main.

Me understanding that prepull regen is annoying and useless aggro/overheal does not mean I cannot adapt if it happens; so you might want to relax a bit on your assumptions about me being unable to pull properly and unable to adapt and whatever else you have assumed.

It's annoying. It serves little to no purpose except to annoy the tank and make them waste time re-positioning mobs and waste GCDs/TP.

It makes tank not fun to play because you are supposed to keep the mobs off your party. You are supposed to be the pinnacle of enmity, but this one situation where you are 100% powerless to do your job correctly just pisses me off to no end. You cannot fight against prepull regen because it doesn't matter what you do; until your first GCD finishes you have zero control over those two mobs that ran after the healer since they decided to heal you for overheal just as you pulled.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I can't even.

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Remember the discussion that healers need to dps, they need to do their job and heal etc? Well maybe the tank needs to do their job as well, I don't have any issues with pulls, even if the healer puts a regen up before I even pulled, or worse medica II that's the new trend anyways.

I don't do it when I am on my healer, but I don't care if healers do it while I am tanking.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Would you cast Cure I on a tank just as they are pulling even though they are full HP? Sounds pointless right? All it does is just get you hate on the mobs the tank hasn't hit yet due to GCD limitations. Same as using Regen right on pull when you could have waited 3 more seconds until the tank hit all mobs once. If the healer is worried about wasting a GCD they can throw one DoT on the mob the tank hit first.

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THISSSSSSSSSS!
If you are the healer doing preregen, that is the "git gud" issue, because you can use that time to DPS more to help, not cause hate headaches. Today I had a preregen pull issue, right before my shield lob landed (or as land) not sure, the ast did a regen buff on me, I was already trying to get the next group when I saw the green dot (I thought it was shield at first) so after the pull died, I asked please use shield or if you want to use regen do not preregen pulls. So i waited for answer/ them to switch. They switched so I went to pull. During that group they said something about it being a mistake I said its kay, it is better then me being silent right? "oh yes of course always open to critisim" was said to me. The only thing I think that needs to 'git gud' and hope people learn from this thread, is improving one's social skills. Comuincing to make runs smoother should not be taboo and provoking fear of "du not tell how to pla2333y mez pay subz lulz"

Going back to this:

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

I've seen it more and more as well. When called out, the healer usually tells the tank to git gud, or "no other tank has complained."

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My reply would be:
That is because people typically do not know how to talk on the internet, it is to make things go smoother and faster, do not prepull regen me, I will click it off"

Meh, I am super un-confrontational in expert roulette.

If a healer puts a regen on me as tank when I pull I surprisingly have a strategy for it so I don't have to actually talk to them about it.

What I do is I just face pull the mobs so my global cooldown isn't spinning...then when the mobs run past me I attempt to flash/unleash/overpower them. If I miss some, which happens then I run toward the healer *with* the mobs, and hit sprint if I have to so they don't run away from me, then when my global cooldown is back up I use another flash/etc to pick up stragglers...and drk has abyssal drain at range of course. Worst case scenario you get to the healer and have to flash again while they hit the healer maybe once.

Yea it's annoying but it's either that or I have to ask the healer politely not to regen me but that is too scary... People are scary... What if I talk to them and they like...talk back? Ack! I don't want to think about it....eep I thought about it. Well, I'm scared now... Good night, hiding under my bed now.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Remember the discussion that healers need to dps, they need to do their job and heal etc? Well maybe the tank needs to do their job as well, I don't have any issues with pulls, even if the healer puts a regen up before I even pulled, or worse medica II that's the new trend anyways.

I don't do it when I am on my healer, but I don't care if healers do it while I am tanking.

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I have no issues dealing with regen pulls either, but that doesn't mean it isn't an unnecessary complication. Think about it like a DPS standing in AoEs- they usually won't die, they keep doing their job, but it's a needless complication for healers, is it not?

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

I have no issues dealing with regen pulls either, but that doesn't mean it isn't an unnecessary complication. Think about it like a DPS standing in AoEs- they usually won't die, they keep doing their job, but it's a needless complication for healers, is it not?

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I feel this is the best comparison that draws light to the core issue. You could tell the DPS standing in non lethal AOE to get good because you shouldn't have to heal the excessive damage constantly, it's annoying at worst. It's not that a tank will have an impossible time dealing with your prepull Regens, but why would you force this cumbersome play?

Yes it's one thing if a Healer is ignorant to the downfalls of it, but there are people here actively avoiding the acceptance of their less than stellar habits and placing them off onto another person. "Start healing better" said the DPS who didn't care to make your life easier.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

If someone tells you to stop doing something like that, then maybe you should stop doing it?
No one needs the snarky remarks like Khaidal had said from a healer...Just stop? Lol.
"No one else has complained" but not everyone is that same person.

My thing is that it's just unnecessary to do. Nothing to do with the Almighty MUH SUB meme.
Just...stop making things harder than they need to be? I mean...Still dunno why we're
arguing about this.

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I think your confused but I'm always the tank in this situation I don't heal lol so from a tank stand point no it's not a real issue

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Ironic (and let's admit, hypocritical) how many people here are telling tanks to git gud instead of the healers. It's a bad habit, a tank should always be flipping off Regen/HoTs before the next pull and healers shouldn't be putting that stuff up until a tanks established.

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Main heal here. And I double THIS. It IS a bad habit to throw Regen before the pull is finalized.

The point I want to emphasize is, YES, an excellent tank who pays extreme caution and puts much extra effort in pulling or an extraordinary tank could dismiss or negate any form of pre-pull or mid-pull Regen without issue. However, what about fledging tanks who is already trying their damnedest to do it their best, or average tanks who are still trying to get better, or perhaps those who might have some latency issues so when they Flash and stuff, the mobs do not react instantly and still run in the opposite direction to beat on the healer?

For me, if there's any small strategic action that I could take more caution with that WILL make the tank's life easier, I try to do it. If I slip and make a mistake, or if I play differently from what they're familiar with and they POLITELY ask me to change my approach, I try to grant their request. I try to adjust and make the TEAM WORK better for everyone.

There is truly no reason to make the run become hell for the tank. If my cooperation will help lessen their stress, their difficulty, or help them perform better, and make the run smoother and happier, I do it.

This goes for both sides, without doubt.

If me being decent means the tank (or anyone else) won't need to take up more burden and exert themselves to the extreme to make the run a smooth one, naturally, I would want to be decent and not sloppy, right? As many others have already stated in this thread, there's really no need to make the job harder for the tank by doing small unnecessary things that only do more harm than good (or do no good and no harm, but is annoying) .

Healers: Don't use Regen pre-pull.
Tanks: Learn how to use the goddamn /statusoff.

Thread resolved. Next.

I react in 2 way for this: if my mood is good I remove the regen manually. If my mood is bad i leave him with his agro so he learn his lesson. And then there's those that keep spamming me regen when I remove it while I pull.

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Originally Posted by Aife

I've been guilty of this on more than one occasion, I have to admit.

I think I struggle with the correct timing when the tank doesn't really provide any indication as to how many mobs they intend on plowing through before they stop to let the group catch up...

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If a tank knows how to aoe pull then a regen should be fine they just need to use their brain and time their flash/overpower/dkwhatsit properly. I levelled all the healers together in two level steps and very rarely did i get hate from a regen pre-pull and on the rare occasion I just went to the tank and waited patiently for them to eventually pull it off.

Unfortunately there's just too much poor tanking in this game. Most tanks think that mass pulling is good tanking and it's everyone else that is bad when 99% of the time it's a 'hero' tank that's the issue. If there's good tanking then that leaves time for the healer to do some (optional) damage and actually make the encounter go much faster.

As a tank...even with Regen I never have problems grabbing threat....maybe its not the healers problems and more of a bad tank problem?

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Originally Posted by Nabian

As a tank...even with Regen I never have problems grabbing threat....maybe its not the healers problems and more of a bad tank problem?

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It's just that you have to run after all the mob for agro if you keep regen while no regen mean throwing a axe/shiel/somethingdark at 1 mob bringing the whole pack and repeat until being blocked and take all their agro, which mean far more fast.

This is only a issue for tanks that have no idea how to do burst aoe threat. The only time i've seen regen pull of a tank pre-pull is by the tank running into a group of mobs then waiting like 2-3 seconds to use flash/overpower/ect.. This is a prime example of git gud.

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Originally Posted by Selova

This is only a issue for tanks that have no idea how to do burst aoe threat. The only time i've seen regen pull of a tank pre-pull is by the tank running into a group of mobs then waiting like 2-3 seconds to use flash/overpower/ect.. This is a prime example of git gud.

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If they had used unmend/shield lob/tomahawk, of course they're to take 2-3 seconds to use an AoE grab, GCD is active at that point

It's just a really bad habit sometime I just miss cast regen or medica 2 pre pull in a rush as soon as I notice that I usually use sprint and glue the tank to avoid unnecessary steps if you're a healer and you're in my case it may be another way around.

So, question: I notice the game doesn't have an already accessible "/statusoff" button for this type of shit.

Then tell me...

If the base game doesn't have anything designed to combat the whole "pregen" thing...

THEN MAYBE "PREGEN" ISN'T AN INTENDED STRATEGY!?

Tanks shouldn't have to design a god damn macro to deal with a problem the Healers are dumping on us!

Bad habit from FF11 I swear!

Your a horrible healer if you throw regens before a pull, plain and simple. Go back to WoW. That B.S. isn't wanted in this game.

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Originally Posted by Selova

This is only a issue for tanks that have no idea how to do burst aoe threat.
This is a prime example of git gud.

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No, this is a prime example that you have little understanding about how this game functions.

#1. As a tank some pulls in this game it is impossible to get enmity on all of the mobs in one GCD. <---------- Understanding this concept is the key to understanding the situation

#2. If a healer cures or regen is placed on the tank just as they pull (already too late to /statusoff) then any mob not hit with one GCD the tank will have zero control of until their first GCD finishes and they are able to take action again.

*Sure you might get lucky sometimes and the regen doesn't tick before you get hate due to server tick being every 3 seconds, but it is impossible to keep track of the regen/DoT server tick so chances are the healer will pull hate and the mobs will run away before you can use overpower/unleash/flash.

#3. It is 100% impossible within the game's rules for a tank to fix #2; you cannot just magically get rid of your GCD and you cannot magically make the mobs always be clumped up for every pull so that you can hit them all with one GCD.

#4. Only the healer has the power to 100% stop #2 from happening by just not using overheals on pull and waiting 3 seconds before healing anyone.

So you're telling others to "git gud", but you obviously lack the fundamentals to understand the situation....so maybe you should rethink your insult to every tank who cannot get hate on all mobs in one GCD, because on some pulls that is 100% impossible so FYI even you can't do what you are telling others to do.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Your a horrible healer if you throw regens before a pull, plain and simple. Go back to WoW. That B.S. isn't wanted in this game.

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Honestly I believe that is the whole reason why this is a problem as ,until I stopped, playing Regen effect would give aggro to the tank and the healer while here it's the opposite

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

I have no issues dealing with regen pulls either, but that doesn't mean it isn't an unnecessary complication. Think about it like a DPS standing in AoEs- they usually won't die, they keep doing their job, but it's a needless complication for healers, is it not?

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Well sure, but everything is a "hassle" to healers, or at least some. Since we don't know how much a person can or can not deal with. Pulling more then 3 mobs could be a frustration, not popping a cool down could lead to problems, dps'ing and healing to the same time, as well as either dps or heal could cause it as well. And while I agree with you, normally dps shouldn't stand in avoidable aoe's, nor does the tank and the healer. I always say this, if the dps does the dmg I don't mind babysitting him/her. But if it's absolute below average, I am sorry, you better move or no heals. But I do the same with tanks and heals.

All I was saying is this and maybe it didn't come across, if there's complaints about healers not dps'ing or healing or both, then why once again we have another topic, that complains about regen pre pull or during big pulls. Instead of maybe looking at the tank itself, or the person playing it, maybe in this case it isn't the healers fault but the tanks? We can't constantly say, oh it's the bad healer, when maybe tank as well as dps have some responsibilities too. Just throwing that out there tho..

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Playing a tank, I've learned to instinctively click it off just to see if they're paying attention. If they whine about it, then I tell them to wait until after I have mobs pinned to me.

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You have the right of it, Kazrah. It's a simple matter to overcome. However, if your healer doesn't bring any adds they get directly to you then they are completely at fault. If you have aggro and don't run to the tank, try to die with dignity.

I will admit that I was one of those healers from FFXI that could face tank forever and glad I can still do that on this game as well (AST Noct is more fun than XI WHM stoneskin forever cure) and sometimes I will purposefully grab the attention of incoming add mechanic crap that has hate spread across the party, or a DPS being stupid and trying to tank something biting off a third of their hp each hit, to redirect it all to one point with one Helios to make it easier for tank to grab or leave alone.

I'm perfectly fine with being hit if it makes it easier if the tank has too much on them already but regen pull I will never do. There's a difference between knowing your limits and not knowing what you're doing and regen before pull is definitely not the former, face tank healer experience or not. You have lost the right to put blame on anyone but yourself at that point.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I think your confused but I'm always the tank in this situation I don't heal lol so from a tank stand point no it's not a real issue

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I'm not, when I say you I was talking in general lol.
I don't pre-regen because I don't feel like getting wrecked and causing more crap for everyone else.
I'm a main healer and a Trainee tank.

As a healer - I don't do it.
As a tank - Please don't do it.

If you're doing a large pull, would you rather be halfway dead before you finish grabbing everything?

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're doing a large pull, would you rather be halfway dead before you finish grabbing everything?

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As a healer, when I see that my tank's HP dropped too much during a large pull, I try to land a Tetra or a Cure on him between mobs (but preferably, I keep Tetra for when the pull is finalized, and use it before of while I Holy). That way, the enmity of the present mobs is already secure, one Cure or Cure II won't hurt me. And the spell will be done before we reach next group, or before next group spawn. To me, Regen sustains enmity-pulling after cast, so it's less desirable in the middle of herding.

Also, if tank's HP drops enough to be an issue here, that tank probably should not execute such large pull. And if Regen alone is enough to cover the problem, then it's not a life-threatening situation, and thus curing (or Regen) can wait until the pull has finalized. If the tank is really dying in the middle of the pull, Regen alone won't help anyway.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're doing a large pull, would you rather be halfway dead before you finish grabbing everything?

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Tank can pop sprint and avoid most autos on the way to the second pack unless it is a really long pull (like some of the ones in the level 69 dungeon, it's rare that sprint runs out before the 2nd pack in most cases) and barely take any damage. This also stops the fairy from auto healing due to HP loss depending on how well it is done.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Your a horrible healer if you throw regens before a pull, plain and simple. Go back to WoW. That B.S. isn't wanted in this game.

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Now this is what we want. None of the fussing round, with possible workarounds to help the tank with an initial large pull. NO! Not here!

Cast aside those thoughts!

And for good measure, the go back to WoW is thrown in (bonus points here).
Healers, you have been told (or possibly evicted). Hang your heads (or other bodily parts which may have been cut off by the tank) in shame.

Yep. That's right. When you try providing helpful tips and you're met with hostility/bad attitude, this is the jaded mentality that eventually surfaces.

I mostly play healer and it's so much smoother to just wait for the tank to establish hate before throwing out any regens (I'll usually apply DoTs and use an instant heal if needed). It's not that hard to pay attention and think about how to work in a team setting. I'll also run to the tank if more mobs are spawning mid-fight and I know I'll grab aggro. Just common sense to do so. Both healer and tank can help make a run very smooth if they want to. Many don't care enough to think about it, though.

While I admit it's generally not best practice for healers to have, tanks really should be able to accommodate for it such that it won't be a problem.

The only thing I tend to really complain about are AoE regens before a pull; even if it still doesn't necessarily cause enmity problems, that's just unnecessary in like 99% of cases (with the 1% being Hunts).

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Bad habit from FF11 I swear!

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To be quite honest, FFXI might be partially to blame for this sort of thing in some cases (similar to how some tanks use Provoke whenever it's ready before they learn how it actually works in this game, as opposed to how it worked in FFXI where using it regularly every 30s was actually standard practice).

I'm willing to bet if you polled 100 healers in this game not every single one of them would know that precasted Regens would still get them hate -- and that even if they were doing it and had noticed sometimes that mobs were veering off the tank on a pull to go after them, there's some that wouldn't connect the dots and assume it was because of their precasted Regen.

Im a good tank so i dont have that problem. It's people who play female cats and Au ra that seem to complain about nothing. Ijs.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

As a tank main from beta phase all the way to 3.2, I have to agree that tanks should get good. Even in the old days when emnity still needed watching out, I had no trouble pulling with regen as long as the healer wasn't rushing ahead of me. Now with buffs to tank enmity, there's even less trouble.

Learn to pull. Seriously.

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There is absolutely no reason to put additional stress on the party by dropping regen before any damage has gone out. This is not on the tank. This is on the healer to be a good, responsible healer and consider how their actions affect the party.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're doing a large pull, would you rather be halfway dead before you finish grabbing everything?

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I would say if a tank can't survive until they have gathered all the mobs and settled, they need to dial back their pull. I can rescue them in a second with a Tetra or a Bene, but that's usually once we stop and the pull is complete.

Also feel like I have to point out that "pre-geners" are nowhere near as annoying as the dps trying to hit mobs mid-chain pull, especially since unlike Regen, you can't click it away.

Right there with you OP. It's pretty frustrating when trying to pull large packs. Everybody is on here saying git gud and learn how to pull with regen. That is surprising to me when you really don't need the regen to begin with. The healer can time a big heal in between pulling packs when all the mobs are aggroed to the tank if needed. But most of the time that is not needed especially as a pally. Sure you can just click it off, but its the healers that cast regen on you right as you shield lob and the other mobs go running straight for the healer who does not know to stack on you in that case. It's especially annoying in ala mhigo or the vault where the mobs come running at you from a long distance. it's not like it wipes groups or anything if you are a good tank and know to run towards the healer (if they are not stacking), but man is it annoying. Healers can just do a big heal instead of putting regen. Every healer has instant cast heals as well that don't apply regen. This is definitely healer ignorance though in not knowing how enmity works.