What's with all these people single-targetting during big pulls in dungeons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

If you're running out of TP on the first pull even after invigorate then the chances are your fellow DPS is either bad or single target killing. If both DPS AoE when appropriate, especially if one is a has good AoE such as BLM or SMN then TP shouldn't be an issue.

---

Or, as is the case with Samurai, your AoE combo just isn't that effective. The only two attacks that don't have damage falloff for samurai is Kyuten, which requires Kenki to use, and Fuga, which hits like a wet noodle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I can tell you why I don't spam AoEs as a samurai: I would actually like to be able to attack. Fuga -> Mangetsu/Oka is a combo that flows pretty well, but it's such a massive drain on my TP for not nearly as effective damage l, because of falloff, as, say, my bard, who can just put up Mage's Balled, throw out some DoTs, and have unlimited Rain of Death. Now, of course I use Kyuten and Tenka Goken when available, but without a TP generating ability, just spamming my AoE combo means I last for about 20 seconds.

---

Trash packs designated to be AoE'd (and really mass pulls in general) shouldn't last longer than 20-40 seconds to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Or, as is the case with Samurai, your AoE combo just isn't that effective. The only two attacks that don't have damage falloff for samurai is Kyuten, which requires Kenki to use, and Fuga, which hits like a wet noodle.

---

Damage fallout isn't a good argument for poor aoe dps since most classes deal with that anyway (and in the case of BRD, RoD refresh is limited to 30 seconds via ballad). You also shouldn't have shifu up for samurai AoE either. That aside, SAM AoE is pretty solid for a full minute provided you don't use shifu and have invigorate. Anecdotal, but I frequently surpass BLMs and BRDs in AoE during the period where I can, only time where I start to fall behind is due to TP sustain. BRD's rain of death spam is only really accessible for 30 seconds during ballad, and otherwise their quick nock is generally weaker in terms of raw damage when you look at SAM having jinpu up and overall higher damage.

Just to compare, the weakest Mangestu/Oka can be is 150 potency on the 5th+ target...most aoe weaponskills don't surpass 110, and the highest otherwise is generally 130 potency. Fuga>Mangetsu/Oka is also more kenki per GCD spent compared to Hakaze>(Shi/Jin)pu>Gekko/Kasha, so your only real constraint here is TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Maybe I'm just weird but whenever I play DPS roles I enjoy the AoE pulls, the more the merrier.


There are a few odd pulls here and there which the DPS should focus certain targets first (bombs, summoners etc...) Most of the time though it's just not necessary and killing the whole pack quicker is what most people prefer.

If you're running out of TP on the first pull even after invigorate then the chances are your fellow DPS is either bad or single target killing. If both DPS AoE when appropriate, especially if one is a has good AoE such as BLM or SMN then TP shouldn't be an issue.

---

To add to this, if your fellow DPS is anything other than a caster, they also should be helping you out with TP via Goad/Tactician.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

.

---

Right. I forgot "git gud scrub" was a viable argument in this forum. Glad to see that my entire reasoning for my lack of spamming myself dry can be dismissed with a good ol' "Just do it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Singularity

To add to this, if your fellow DPS is anything other than a caster, they also should be helping you out with TP via Goad/Tactician.

---

I can say, with extreme pride... that noone fucking uses goad :c I can count on one finger the amount of times I've been goaded by another player. :c

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Right. I forgot "git gud scrub" was a viable argument in this forum. Glad to see that my entire reasoning for my lack of spamming myself dry can be dismissed with a good ol' "Just do it."

---

Nowhere in my post did I say that. If aoe packs are taking that much longer to die, then the issue lies somewhere; either being undergeared or the other dps not aoeing (or the rare case of spamming Mangetsu/Oka or Sonic Thrust without comboing). For the most part there's no "git gud scrub" when it comes to aoeing due to the nature of it, either you are or you aren't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Right. I forgot "git gud scrub" was a viable argument in this forum. Glad to see that my entire reasoning for my lack of spamming myself dry can be dismissed with a good ol' "Just do it."

---

Glad to see you didn't forget "put words in people's mouth" was also a viable argument on this forum.

See, as Sam I go back and forth. I'll do my 2 aoe rotations, use my Kenai aoe skill then my iai strike aoe. I use those til I hit around 100 tp.
The I use the self tp skill, do some single target skills while still throwing on the iai aoe and aoe Kenai as they build. Usually by the time I start my single target game most sruff is low enough to clear out with one or 2 hits. Especially if I have a blm as a 2nd dps, I try to balance mobs hp as I single target them down so the blm aoe can finishes them together.



Rdm I haven't hit 70 yet, but I go back and forth between scatter and my single target white and black. I feel like it just goes much faster that way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sonicadventures

I can say, with extreme pride... that noone fucking uses goad :c I can count on one finger the amount of times I've been goaded by another player. :c

---

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

---

Tanks should be running close to being out of tp , if they are using aoe, the pulls I do on pali warrant a total eclipse spam and goad is very helpful with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP.

---

As a Warrior I'd like to interject and say as a Warrior, I appreciate immensely when someone uses goad.... but as the person you quoted said.... NO ONE USES IT. *WARRIOR RAGE FACE* We especially need it on bigger pulls. So to say Goad is useless...No...I was in a party once with an Ast, and two melee DPS that had Goad. BEST RUN EVER. So please, consider equipping it, you make warriors cry a bit inside :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

As a Warrior I'd like to interject and say as a Warrior, I appreciate immensely when someone uses goad.... but as the person you quoted said.... NO ONE USES IT. *WARRIOR RAGE FACE* We especially need it on bigger pulls. So to say Goad is useless...No...I was in a party once with an Ast, and two melee DPS that had Goad. BEST RUN EVER. So please, consider equipping it, you make warriors cry a bit inside :D

---

I goaded a warrior once and he flat out stopped the run and stared at me for like 3 whole mins. We thought he was gonna DC but then patted me on the head and hugged me from that point on. What was funny about that I thought he was mad when I goaded him.. as I looked and was like " he's TP is gone" - goaded-. And to be fair to the poster above you, he only mentioned it was useles cause all the other content you rarely run out of TP. But still... I agree... people should use it. It helps ALOT.

I find it extremely rare that someone uses Goad. Did a run of the leveling roulette on my BRD last night, got Haukke Manor. Was paired with a DRG. They used Goad on me when Tactician wasn't available, I also used Invigorate when my TP was low on the AoE pulls. That was the first time I had seen someone actually use Goad since Stormblood came out that I can remember.

As a summoner, I cannot spam AoE.
I have a few AoE spells, but they are locked behind a single target rotation for the most part, and the one AoE that isn't, has a cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

---

The only tank that shouldn't be running out of TP on AoE pulls are DRK. PLD and WAR both can run through their TP pretty quickly if they're doing more than merely establishing threat on that kind of a pull.

And I'd say that Bloodbath is hardly a mandatory skill for dungeon content, the same with Leg Sweep. They're nice to have, but you don't need either skill. You can argue the same for Goad, but I find that Goad tends to benefit a run more than having Leg Sweep or Bloodbath, personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cenerae

And I'd say that Bloodbath is hardly a mandatory skill for dungeon content, the same with Leg Sweep. They're nice to have, but you don't need either skill. You can argue the same for Goad, but I find that Goad tends to benefit a run more than having Leg Sweep or Bloodbath, personally.

---

I would argue the other way. 1 in every 50 tanks stuns monsters. Even PLD with Shield Bash rarely if ever stuns anything. When I was leveling my PLD I would stun anything I could that forced melee DPS, or even myself, to move away to avoid damage. My melee DPS always have Leg Sweep, Invigorate, and Second Wind(for when I'm an idiot and take damage I should have avoided so the healer doesn't need to heal my idiocy). If something that should be stunned isn't by the time it gets to about 1/3 left to cast, I will throw down the stun myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sonicadventures

I goaded a warrior once and he flat out stopped the run and stared at me for like 3 whole mins. We thought he was gonna DC but then patted me on the head and hugged me from that point on. What was funny about that I thought he was mad when I goaded him.. as I looked and was like " he's TP is gone" - goaded-. And to be fair to the poster above you, he only mentioned it was useles cause all the other content you rarely run out of TP. But still... I agree... people should use it. It helps ALOT.

---

omg ive so been there. that run that had all the goads, everyone got lots of hugs. its nice to pull big and just overpower the shit out of everything (with steel cyclone too). things just melted. I do agree not all content needs it...but some do... *wipes away tear*

But I mean I used to also main Ninja, so, I always found a use for Goad, so for me its always an ability thats nice to have. But thats personal preference. I get everyone won't feel that way...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avatre

I would argue the other way. 1 in every 50 tanks stuns monsters. Even PLD with Shield Bash rarely if ever stuns anything. When I was leveling my PLD I would stun anything I could that forced melee DPS, or even myself, to move away to avoid damage. My melee DPS always have Leg Sweep, Invigorate, and Second Wind(for when I'm an idiot and take damage I should have avoided so the healer doesn't need to heal my idiocy). If something that should be stunned isn't by the time it gets to about 1/3 left to cast, I will throw down the stun myself.

---

There's only one enemy in SB dungeons I've noted that really needs to be stunned. The final trash mob in Sirensong, where you want to stop it from charming the group. Otherwise, it's a nice thing to have, but it's not what I'd ever call a *must have* skill. And again, the same can be said for Bloodbath (since it's sustained healing, but you have a healer to provide that. Or you should, at least).

I think Goading a co-dps or the tank (where applicable) is more beneficial to the run's efficiency overall. Unless they're not AoEing, I guess. But fortunately, we are able to switch role skills on the fly, and there's nothing stopping you from cutting Goad for something else if it's not going to get used.

Why don't you just ask the people in your group instead of having a huge fight on the forums over a non issue? So your run was 10min longer than usual. Who cares.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

You anecdote is unclear -- exactly what level of the instances were you running in? Was it a leveling roulette? A 50/60 roulette? A Guildhest? Did the tank indicate they were going to pull 10+ mobs beforehand and get agreement from DPS and Healer? Were the 10+ mobs firing off their own AoE rings? Was one of the melee DPS a Dragoon?

---

I answered those questions in a couple of posts.

DR Experts. Both were Kugane Castle actually.

It doesn't matter what the tank says. If there are more than 4 mobs on the tank, the DPS should be using AoE. How the tank decides to pull is realistically at their own discretion. They are the ones pulling. If a healer can't handle the pull size, it's up to the healer to either speak up or the tank to adjust and pull less. This doesn't change the fact that when there are 4 mobs or more on the tank, the DPS should be using AoE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Oh! I see it now! The party ends up taking less damage in the encounter using AoEs rather than burning down one mob at a time. Thanks for explaining it in such a clear manner.

Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible. For example, mobs which take control away from your character.

Anyroads, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I'll improve my play.

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

---

This is the exact purpose of this thread. Thanks for learning something :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This argument is so dumb I see this maybe never in duty finder majority of people knw their class limitation oh I will put this out there you can argue with me all you want but a DRG pre level 70 that is spamming aoes besides dragon fly and Geri when they are up is bad..The potencies for both death spike and sonic thrust are way to weak and do as much damage a death blossom :/ and lets not forget you wont even hit all the mobs

So its about efficient and aoe isnt always efficient you guys need to pay more attention to what your composition is, two melee don't equal a SMN for aoes so why pull just as much as if you had one.I see tanks pull huge groups and have like a MNK and DRG as dps and wonder why the healer went OOM or the tank dropped before the mobs

Also not blaming healers at all but you are the true masters of aoe and you are essentially a caster, melee that arnt a SAM (they get no excuses) arnt doing much aoe Damage unless they get those weak groups like in doma castle

---

Composition doesn't matter. I run with 2x melees often and clear in 15ish mins provided the other melee is using AoE as well.

All DPS have AoE, and using AoE on 4 or more (3 on some jobs) are more efficient than single target.

You want me to use DRG as an example for you? 3x GCDs..

Single target = True > Vorpal > Full
= 150 + 240 + 440
= 830

4 mobs = Doomspike > Sonic Thrust > Doomspike
= 130*4 + 170*4 + 130*4
= 520 + 680 + 520
= 1720

10 mobs? Even if you're not hitting ALL of the mobs with your AoE, as long as you're landing it on 4x than you're better off.
On top of that, you can now extend BotD with Sonic Thrust which allows you to spam Geirs / Nos as well... So you don't even lose out on that damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conquistadork

That would depend on the job and play style. As in my case, when I'm using SAM, I tend to do a one single combo on each pull to get my dmg up buff first and then proceed to do my AoE combos. It also depends on the type of mobs you are fighting, if there's one of those huge monsters that love to do AoEs, I will focus it first to remove it as fast as possible.

Some classes have better ways to deal with group mobs than others, so I see why they would feel more comfortable doing single combos, is it the best viable option? perhaps not, but you can't expect everyone to play the same way as you, or your FC mates do.

---

Not expecting people to play to a 95 percentile standard.
Just hitting AoE skills on big packs. I don't really think it's a big ask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Or, as is the case with Samurai, your AoE combo just isn't that effective. The only two attacks that don't have damage falloff for samurai is Kyuten, which requires Kenki to use, and Fuga, which hits like a wet noodle.

---

Samurai AoE is actually not too bad :/ See the math in one of my earlier posts that completely disregards Iaijutsu. It's still quite a substantial gain to AoE with Fuga > Mangetsu/Oka over single target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

---

There are only 3x DPS classes (out of 9) that don't use TP for AoE.
Yes, Goad is highly useful.

Other DPS is one of those 3 DPS classes? No worries, then just switch it out at the start of the dungeon if you really want.
There are far more "less useful" skills in the arsenal as Goad.. It should practically be mandatory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Oh! I see it now! The party ends up taking less damage in the encounter using AoEs rather than burning down one mob at a time. Thanks for explaining it in such a clear manner.
Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible. For example, mobs which take control away from your character.

Anyroads, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I'll improve my play.

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

---

This is the exact purpose of this thread. Thanks for learning something :)

---

From a healer viewpoint/ tank there is more to it.

If you have 10 or 15 monsters and DPS is single targeting 2 different ones, it would be hard keep hate on both of them, esp if they know how to full out burst. For healing if you kill say 2 super fast, there is still 8-13 pounding on the tank. You will wipe if things are not killed fast enough, and I almost had that situation in expert a few days ago because one of the dps was under 290 for most slots (SE really needs a better way of gear gating content, ilevel average is a farce)

Also I am not sure what exceptions you are talking about, stun is a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

TP starvation from aoeing is generally a non-issue, provided the mobs are dying fast enough. Which generally means you need both dps to be aoeing.

---

I know, I was just saying what people say. The "You are not a 60 mnk do not tell me what to do" I wanted to kick because they where giving the tank enmity problems on top of things, because of the single target bursting when AoE was needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

From a healer viewpoint/ tank there is more to it.

---

Well yes but simply put, the idea is kill everything before the tank runs out of buffs, and the healer runs out of MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Also I am not sure what exceptions you are talking about, stun is a thing.

---

Basically enemies such as the bees with Final Sting that can kill the tank in one attack. Paladins have more leniency when it comes to stuns since they have Shield Bash, but not so much the other two tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Basically enemies such as the bees with Final Sting that can kill the tank in one attack. Paladins have more leniency when it comes to stuns since they have Shield Bash, but not so much the other two tanks.

---

These types of enemies are really few and far. The last high end dungeon with bees was Saint Mocianne's Arboretum, and you could skip that by DPSing the walls down. Before that, Sunken Temple of Qarn, but many DPS classes don't have AoE skills yet, so you're single targetting those priority targets anyway. Which should be dead well before Final Sting starts casting. Even the enemy that can charm you in Sirensong Sea is easily killed before it gets the chance to cast the ability.

I used to be one of those single-target NINs, but now, I have so many AOE options now that I can't go back.

If we have three mobs, I do drop Doton and proceed to Shadowfang each enemy. If we have 4 or more, I toss a Katon and follow it up with a Kassatsu + Doton then spam Death Blossoms. This is just basic if the content is under Lv62.

As a SAM, I get crap from people because I would apply Higanbana on each mob (if we have three or less).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

These types of enemies are really few and far. The last high end dungeon with bees was Saint Mocianne's Arboretum, and you could skip that by DPSing the walls down. Before that, Sunken Temple of Qarn, but many DPS classes don't have AoE skills yet, so you're single targetting those priority targets anyway. Which should be dead well before Final Sting starts casting. Even the enemy that can charm you in Sirensong Sea is easily killed before it gets the chance to cast the ability.

---

There are also general mobs in just about every SB dungeon that hit incredibly hard compared to their peers and have hard hitting AoEs. The general codifying of these enemies has been to make them big, with the largest acting as mini-bosses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

These types of enemies are really few and far. The last high end dungeon with bees was Saint Mocianne's Arboretum, and you could skip that by DPSing the walls down. Before that, Sunken Temple of Qarn, but many DPS classes don't have AoE skills yet, so you're single targetting those priority targets anyway. Which should be dead well before Final Sting starts casting. Even the enemy that can charm you in Sirensong Sea is easily killed before it gets the chance to cast the ability.

---

How about those bees that were removed from Amdapor Keep? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaneakki

This is like the new meme right now. Seriously. So they don't want big pulls, so it gives them the right to play the class wrong? Or in fact it's easier to kill stuff when they all gathered and all you do is either spam 1 or 2 buttons with some buffs on. Like altena said, why would a DPS have issues with being in an effcient party? I honestly can't believe what you just said. Your JOB as DPS is to kill things, believe it. Big or small pulls doesn't matter.

---

When I'm a healer hate it when tanks do big pulls. First they don't dodge attacks and die faster than you can keep them healed and dps do lower dmg in big pull groups and use up more tp. Small pulls is just fine because then healer can help with dps and not focus only on healing. Also notice big pulls and small pulls take about same amount of time. Also notice in big pulls most tanks can't keep the hate and monsters charge the dps and healer then wipe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

There are also general mobs in just about every SB dungeon that hit incredibly hard compared to their peers and have hard hitting AoEs. The general codifying of these enemies has been to make them big, with the largest acting as mini-bosses.

---

*Thinking.* Nothing stands out in my mind as being so threatening that stuns were needed. I've raised a DPS and healer both to 70 and have done, mostly, larger pulls and still DPS'd on healer. I can't recall a regular mob, big or small, needing a stun. Only when it died slowly, and that was Sirensong. Hence my point. Bees with final sting are priority targets because they do damage relative to their HP- the best mitigation is actually DPS in their case lol. It's not the same as Kugane with the avengers or the magiteck armors or large wheel machine thing (never paid attention to it's name). They do AoEs and hit slightly harder, but nothing to write home about. Not like the Iron Giant in Doma, who does AoEs frequently enough that pulling anything else with it is a waste of time due to dodging that frequently. Hence, yes, they hit hard, but it's still more efficient to AoE DPS where applicable. The only time I'd forego AoE DPS to kill a "miniboss" is when I'd notice a healer struggling, but that boils down to group awareness and being able to judge a situation. Bardam's Mettle was a little bit "yeah, okay, I feel the difference. I feel every hit that tank is taking in heals." Still did larger pulls. Still DPS'd- I just made sure to watch the party's HP a little more closely than normal and used more defensive cooldowns. I also don't consider myself anything more than an average healer, just an aware one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

How about those bees that were removed from Amdapor Keep? :)

---

For that reason: they were removed. Not worth mentioning something that new players won't encounter and only those playing then would remember.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Bees with final sting are priority targets because they do damage relative to their HP-

---

Actually Bees with Final Sting do 75% of the targets maximum HP regardless of how much of their own HP remains. They cannot one shot you unless your health falls below that 75% maximum, which happens fairly quickly in big pulls compared to small ones. Then you got the cases where multiple bees decide to final sting at the same time and the tank goes pop.

Anyways, those big mobs do not hit "slightly" harder compared to their peers, they hit considerably harder. The big pull just before the 2nd boss of Bardam's is a good example of this as more often then not tanks will die instead of complete that pull unless there is a double caster setup where one of them can LB while the other puts out a ton of AoE DPS. Because that big pull includes multiple large enemies that hit like trucks. Enemies that do significant damage by themselves even in small pulls and have considerably more HP then their peers making AoE not a good choice for dealing with them, as they do enough DPS to easily equal 2 others of their peers.

Stuns do help as that is in general 2-3 GCDs where that mob is not hurting the tank. In general though SE does not often include mobs that calls for stun/silence as a priority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

snip

---

This is so wrong that it hurts to read. It's obvious that you don't know how potencies work for big aoe pulls. While they aren't as strong as BLM and SMN, both monk and dragoon aoe are incredibly strong if you know what you're doing, ie. maintaining the buff from TS during rockbreaker spam, EF on cooldown, keeping your HT buff up on dragoon and positioning yourself for GS's and ST spam. If your playing monk and dragoon and your tank pulls 2-3 packs of mobs and you are cycling through 1 mob at a time only doing ST you are a hindrance to your group and will be vote kicked. End of story.

Expecting people to play the way YOU want is just naive. How many forum threads about this general subject matter do we need? Healers not DPSing, healers DPSing, tanks not using CDs, tank over-pulling or under-pulling, DPS under performing in any myriad of ways.... How can people be so dense as to think others will change what they are doing simply because you expect it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Expecting people to play the way YOU want is just naive. How many forum threads about this general subject matter do we need? Healers not DPSing, healers DPSing, tanks not using CDs, tank over-pulling or under-pulling, DPS under performing in any myriad of ways.... How can people be so dense as to think others will change what they are doing simply because you expect it.

---

Because the enabling mentality of "let others play how they want" does more harm than good.
There are right and wrong ways to play.
There are also varying degrees of how well it's executed.

People aren't asking for amazing execution, just correct skill usage for the situation.
There is literally no argument for not utilizing all your available skills.
In situations where there are more than 4 mobs, there is literally no reason a player shouldn't be using AoE skills, aside from keeping buffs up.

Enabling players to "play how they want" only means 3 (or 7) other people are required to carry a good portion of that player's weight by making up the required difference.

Again, no one is asking for 95 percentile performance, but simply using AoE skills when the situation calls for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

Because the enabling mentality of "let others play how they want" does more harm than good.

---

As if you can force others do what you want...

Your only options are leave or kick. A personal crusade to teach everyone how to "git gud" leads only to big headaches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

As if you can force others do what you want...

Your only options are leave or kick. A personal crusade to teach everyone how to "git gud" leads only to big headaches.

---

Quote:

---

Again, no one is asking for 95 percentile performance, but simply using AoE skills when the situation calls for it.

---

Lalaru, I'm curious. Are you okay with letting people target mobs however they want or are you going to ask people to AoE when you do large pulls? Because, what's the harm is asking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

*snippity*
This is the exact purpose of this thread. Thanks for learning something :)
*Snip*

---

You are welcome!

You'll be pleased to know I used what I learned here on my rogue (Sandi Kandi of Coeurl) while running PotD. The difference from my past performance was AMAZING. Death Blossom doesn't have high potency at all but those mobs seemingly melted all at once. It was beautiful. I like this AoE stuff!

/thumbsup

The following is based upon my personal experience & observation as a Dragoon main.

I use AoEs whenever I can. That being said, if there's still a crowd of enemies up, I will switch back to single target when I'm very low on TP & I've already used Invigorate, Dragonfire Dive and Geirskogal (aka Shooty Dragon) are also on cooldown.

I can count on 1 hand the number of times that I've seen Goad used.

I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've had Goad used on me. So far I've never had a melee DPS Goad me. I'm convinced they don't carry it.

The number of times I've seen Bards use Paeon since Stormblood's launch is 0. Hell, they rarely play songs, so I guess at least they're keeping that stereotype alive, I guess.

I keep Goad for "just in case" even though I rarely get a chance to use it. The tanks that I've encountered rarely get below a quarter TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I was hoping someone would note the "Flare" treatment a lot of aoes got. No issues using aoe skills on reasonable pulls, but when you pull half the dungeon, anything after #5 is getting half damage, and I'd call that pretty inefficient.

To clarify, do your big pulls, but keep them reasonable. At one point it's more of a disservice to the entire party than it is helpful, especially if the tank or healer can't keep up. I've had tanks nearly die in the span of an Aero 3 cast, and that's just not right.

---

It's always more efficient to pull more. Instead of killing two groups of 10 in 60 seconds each, you can just kill one group of 20 in 60-80 seconds (healer DPS and whatnot). And for the usual pulls, don't think "I'm doing only 50% damage to 6th and 7th mob," but "I'm doing ~71% to everything." Just target the highest health enemy. Only time more is bad is when the tank and healer can't handle it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Anyways, those big mobs do not hit "slightly" harder compared to their peers, they hit considerably harder.

---

Now that I'm leveling my third healer in a row, the only ones I can think of that are a real problem are the bird you mentioned before the second boss in Bardam (mainly the dot), the magitek midway to first boss in Doma, and maybe the last guy in Sirensong, but only because the dogs hit as hard as him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

Because the enabling mentality of "let others play how they want" does more harm than good.
There are right and wrong ways to play.
There are also varying degrees of how well it's executed.

People aren't asking for amazing execution, just correct skill usage for the situation.
There is literally no argument for not utilizing all your available skills.

---

My post isn't specific just to this topic, nor do I personally agree with some peoples choice of play style. My point is, no amount of complaining/discussion about people's play-style is going to change things. I've been in many horrible DF groups, as many of you have, and the reality is they will keep occurring from time to time. You just deal with it and move on, or make a PF group with friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waliel

Now that I'm leveling my third healer in a row, the only ones I can think of that are a real problem are the bird you mentioned before the second boss in Bardam (mainly the dot), the magitek midway to first boss in Doma, and maybe the last guy in Sirensong, but only because the dogs hit as hard as him.

---

The mettling golems in Baradm also hurt for quite a bit on the tank with a mix of their straight punch and stone 2. On the other hand as people have mentioned, there's also the large pulls (specifically in Doma) that pretty much necessitate AoE since they will collectively hurt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I was hoping someone would note the "Flare" treatment a lot of aoes got. No issues using aoe skills on reasonable pulls, but when you pull half the dungeon, anything after #5 is getting half damage, and I'd call that pretty inefficient.

---

It's not really that big of a inefficiency when you look at the actual numbers. Mangetsu/Oka is a 25% falloff at 5+, which is still 150 potency when most cleaves cap at 130, while casters in general do not having sustaining issues when it comes to their AoEs, and MCH/BRD being more plateau to their cooldowns. The primary problem comes with the tanks surviving the pull itself which is a different concern.