Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

In a static group, sure I'll stance dance and dps. In finder or a PUG, rarely. Many times I've had to burn a cool down and use inner beast through the whole time and still almost die, because, yep you guessed it the healer is DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

In a static group, sure I'll stance dance and dps. In finder or a PUG, rarely. Many times I've had to burn a cool down and use inner beast through the whole time and still almost die, because, yep you guessed it the healer is DPSing.

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I get complimented by tanks all the time because I heal and rarely dps. I do my best to keep everyone alive because I realize that DPS can out dps me for the most part. (I'm a WHM). If I have time, I'll toss out some DPS, but never at the expense of another player in the group. Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

If I have time, I'll toss out some DPS, but never at the expense of another player in the group. Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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Congrats, you're better than most healers here and in game. 10/10.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

I get complimented by tanks all the time because I heal and rarely dps. I do my best to keep everyone alive because I realize that DPS can out dps me for the most part. (I'm a WHM). If I have time, I'll toss out some DPS, but never at the expense of another player in the group. Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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I don't think anyone in the thread has been claiming that you're supposed to DPS at the expense of doing your actual job. People that do that are stupid.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

I get complimented by tanks all the time because I heal and rarely dps. I do my best to keep everyone alive because I realize that DPS can out dps me for the most part. (I'm a WHM). If I have time, I'll toss out some DPS, but never at the expense of another player in the group. Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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Love healers like you. I can go full DPS for the boss fights and just use the cooldowns for tank busters. Trash, yea I'm in deliverance for the IB mitigation so I don't have to blow cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Cenerae

I don't think anyone in the thread has been claiming that you're supposed to DPS at the expense of doing your actual job. People that do that are stupid.

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Exactly, her argument is a pretty moot and useless one. No one sane is arguing that a healer should abandon their healing duties for more DPS. Absolutely no one.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

Love healers like you. I can go full DPS for the boss fights and just use the cooldowns for tank busters. Trash, yea I'm in deliverance for the IB mitigation so I don't have to blow cooldowns.

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You should use your cooldowns on dungeon trash, because for the most part, Dungeon Trash hit for more damage than the Dungeon Bosses. Especially if you are a warrior with short defensive cooldown timers, your CD's will be ready by the next trash/dungeonboss if you use them early. Everytime vengeance sits unused for 2 minutes, you wasted a whole vengeance usage. The same applies for any cooldown.
Don't be an unnecessarily squishy Tank for 80% of the whole dungeon, just because you think you have to save your CD's exclusively for the other 20%, the bosses.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

Love healers like you. I can go full DPS for the boss fights and just use the cooldowns for tank busters. Trash, yea I'm in deliverance for the IB mitigation so I don't have to blow cooldowns.

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So this is just kinda like, passing the DPS buck then; as it were? I mean, either way the extra damage is coming from somewhere, whether it's you playing offensively or a healer playing offensively.

I guess my question to tanks would be, would you RATHER your healer dedicate 100% of their casts to keeping you above 90%, or would you rather see them sling damage even if it means you get down to sub-30% sometimes? It's not a derisive question, I'm just curious. I read on Gen Discussion a lot that healers DPSing seems to make tanks nervous even IF everything winds up okay, so I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for tanks' preference.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

While arr and hw were more for the "tank and healer dps" for stormblood they seek to be trying to push that mentality away. Unless there was a new announcement, last I heard was they were making str stuff on tanks much lower because the want tanks to tank. Lots of hp.

And healers are definitely having to heal more and dps less now.



Anyways. The whole healer dps is a bag of bombs in its own right. Personally, I believe healers can pick. If they just want to heal, let them. That's their roll. Any dps they do is extra.

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If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

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Originally Posted by Vanitas

Why the emphasis? People looooooove to show off their numerical epeen on fflogs. If anyone says there's another reason they're probably lying to you and themselves. :p

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Most of the decently dps-contributing healers and tanks I know either don't know what FFlogs is or aren't on the site.

They just notice this weird thing where, when they actually contribute, runs go faster. Shocker.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is only because MP conservation is not a thing for healers. If healer MP regen was so low that they eventually hit a point where they go OOM regardless of what you do, the focus changes to smart use of MP and the tanks/DPS not taking more damage than needed.

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But then you have to ask yourself—is standing idle fun? Even if thoughtfully done? We have the multiple ranks of MP- vs. time-efficiency, identically to WoW (save that we add potency rather than speed). Do we really want to shift emphasis from well-timed burst to using as few burst skills as possible, and standing around to regen mana? (Not that that's really a thing in WoW either at that point.)

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

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Only by the same degree by which DPS who don't dodge or self-buff and tanks who don't use CDs or insist on having 5x the 2nd enmity's threat are ridiculed. Why would it be any different? They're wasting their own and/or others' potential contribution.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

So this is just kinda like, passing the DPS buck then; as it were? I mean, either way the extra damage is coming from somewhere, whether it's you playing offensively or a healer playing offensively.

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Fair enough, although actual efficiency will usually pass the torch back and forth between the healer's offensive mode (still maintaining efficient heals like oGCD usage on CD unless needing to be saved and HoTs) and the tank's whole-hog mode. That's part of what makes having a tank and healer who each know what they're doing, on each side, so fun.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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You make it sound like these are divergent strategies. They're not. You apply your Regen and DoT if efficient, and then you continue to DPS until you need to heal again (or rather, until healing allows you more DPS). The proportion is irrelevant in itself. You just do what's efficient.

DPSing as a healer is weird for me because I've had situations where everything was going smoothly and I decided to DPS, and then seconds later the shit hit the fan and I found myself dangerously low on mana.

I wish healer DPS spells used next to nothing for mana. I'd feel more confident about throwing out damage then since I can't predict when party members are going to suddenly start standing in the bad.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snip.

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Don't think that's still a valid excuse to harass someone.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

good stuff

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I wonder how things would go if RDMs start campaigns against using verraise because they queued to do damage not ress people.

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Originally Posted by Cenerae

I don't think anyone in the thread has been claiming that you're supposed to DPS at the expense of doing your actual job. People that do that are stupid.

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I didn't say they did nor am I calling anyone stupid, that's unkind. I simply stated how I do things in reply to another post.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Don't think that's still a valid excuse to harass someone.

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And I don't think player "preference" is a valid excuse for intentional underperformance at your team's expense. Maybe that's just me... but chances are, if you're seeing this "harassment" in kind, frequently, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

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Or you people exaggerate the times this happens of NA data centers are a dumpster, but then again I remember when I played Tera at NA servers and the community was a big piece of bantha poo.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

Love healers like you. I can go full DPS for the boss fights and just use the cooldowns for tank busters.

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Erm, you should be able to do all dungeon bosses in Deliverance even with your healer DPSing... These two aren't exclusive. But please use your cooldowns for trash pulls (and big tank busters, if there are any), and don't change to Deliverance on trash until there are so few monsters left you know you can handle then. :)

The best tank I've had was random DF WAR who made the 5 group pull in Ala Mhigo and was in Deliverance as much as possible. I was still able to DPS as WHM (it's around i310) and it was an amazing run!

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I read on Gen Discussion a lot that healers DPSing seems to make tanks nervous even IF everything winds up okay, so I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for tanks' preference.

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As a tank, keep me over 50%ish and I'm happy, especially if it allows me to go ham with Deliverance. My issue with dpsing PUG healers is that oftentimes they wipe the raid by letting the MT die, both on bosses and on trash. It's extremely depressing to be sitting at 1 HP after exhausting all of my CDs and watching that Holmgang count down to death, while watching the healer spamming stone/malefic/broil.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Snip.

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I can't speak for Palladin, but warriors don't get a damage reduction from being in tank stance, only a larger health pool and enmity. So after I've established agro, presuming the healer doesn't need the extra health to keep me up, going to dps stance is a no brainer. Now if the healer struggles I stay tank stance use IB to provide extra mitigation 20 percent for 6 seconds as fell cleaved doesn't provide any mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Taika

don't change to Deliverance on trash until there are so few monsters left you know you can handle then!

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Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And I don't think player "preference" is a valid excuse for intentional underperformance at your team's expense. Maybe that's just me... but chances are, if you're seeing this "harassment" in kind, frequently, it's not.

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Could you please tell me how any healer not doing any DPS (out of OS3 or OS4 for now) is "underperformance at one's team's expense" ? For any content (out of OS3 & OS4), a dps check not being met means your DPS guys are falling behind. Plain and simple.

Not that healers not doing anything shouldn't be dpsing. Just... don't blame healers for your inability to meet the game's expectations. Odds are you aren't part of the 1% players for whom healer dps actually matters

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

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Inner Beast actually exists :p But yeah, any Inner Beast on trash mobs could have been a Steel Cyclone, or better, a Decimate

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

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The massive weakness of one tank's tank stance... that one in five of its users cannot even recognize.

I do hope they'll eventually turn Defiance into a buff to all healing taken, including self-healing and damage-converted healing, but until then I guess it still stands as a decent tooltip comprehension check?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Could you please tell me how any healer not doing any DPS (out of OS3 or OS4 for now) is "underperformance at one's team's expense" ? For any content (out of OS3 & OS4), a dps check not being met means your DPS guys are falling behind. Plain and simple.

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I think you've got this backwards...

Let's say you join a whistle farm group for Lakshimi or Susano Ex. Neither of these need healer DPS, by any stretch. But you can either do 10 runs in 100 minutes, or in 90, by virtue of healer dps, at no increased chance to wiping (which would have set you back from 90 to 99 minutes)—merely a increased extent of effort.

Is there a reason not to accelerate those runs?

Similarly, a DPS could just do 1-2-3 rotations, ignore their self-buffs, and push back the time it takes to make 10 clears by the same amount. Doing it right costs it nothing but increased effort. Should they be excused because they'd still clear before enrage regardless? If clearing the fight before enrage (i.e. at all) is their only job, why expect optimal or even near-optimal performance out of them? Or why expect them to dodge or participate in stacks if they're already doing all the DPS needed to fulfill their "role"?

Efforts being nearly equal (actually, higher to contribute the same increased rDPS in going from a lackluster to optimal DPS on many a job than to fill in downtime with DPS as a healer), why should one's performance gap be excused and the other's not?

I'm not saying to excuse DPS, but to ask that healers both heal and deal damage is not a double standard. Their only "job", like anyone else's is to clear in a timely manner, making best use of their kit. It's an extent of effort relative to opportunity—of real performance relative to potential, and the attention required to bridge the gap. Asking, however, that a DPS expend full effort to play near-optimally while chalking up using healer downtime at all to "choice" (as others, not necessarily you, have done) is a double standard.

I am asking that they know their jobs, and put in the effort. No more, no less. There is no point where underperformance ought to be excused only because it is not absolutely necessary.

My take on it.... FF14 has a very loud opinionated segment of its the community. Unfortunately the masses actually listen to them.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

My take on it.... FF14 has a very loud opinionated segment of its the community. Unfortunately the masses actually listen to them.

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Like tweens desperate to be as cool as their big brother Biff. Biff has a motorcycle... he's so cool!

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

To be entirely fair, this was initially stated back in Gordias, where it was a flat out lie.

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This was because they used the wrong ilevel during the tests, not because the dev healer did dmg

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

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Being asked to contribute more then the bear minimum isn't the same as being ridiculed. Most raid groups will make a slightly snarky comment at most if the healer isn't DPSing. They don't go off on a rant about it.

There is just a lot more to do for a Healer in Wow and for Tanks the Same. Thats why noone espects them to do sick DPS. I recently started to Play WoW again because of the Destruction of FFXIV pvp with 4.0 and its so much more chilled there when it comes to Raids or Dungeons. It kinda feels like all the toxic Players from WoW moved to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by zar

There are less DPS in raids in comparison to WoW. Half of your raid here is DPS while in WoW it's around 70%.
Healers here also do significantly more damage than in WoW. They do around 30% of an actual DPS while in WoW you'd be lucky to break 10%.

The encounters in this game are definitely designed around healers and tanks contributing DPS. If it weren't the DPS checks would be absolute jokes.

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The dps checks -are- absolute jokes.

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Originally Posted by Pells

The dps checks -are- absolute jokes.

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TBF, the one time they did account for tank/healer dps we got a raid that completely crushed the vast majority of the raid scene. (Let's be honest, there's no way Gordias didn't include tank/healer dps, and the entire game has suffered as a result).

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Originally Posted by Araxes

There is just a lot...

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Healers I would agree have a lot to do usually in WoW, but I would disagree fervently with tanks being in a similar state. Tanking is, as of now in Legion, the most boring and low maintenance role in the game.

Furthermore, WoW tanks do not have a branching set of actions dedicated specifically as the "DPS combo" or the "Enmity combo". It's just one set of skills. So not only do they not have much to do because threat management doesn't exist and positioning is easy, but they spend the entire fight hitting the mob with their optimal DPS abilities, with all of their defensive CDs usually being oGCD to boot.

There is literally 0 reason a tank shouldn't be focusing on their damage in WoW, in my opinion, and in practice this actually does happen at the higher level. There are some pretty impressive tank parses, and I would argue that tanks literally can do ~2/3 of a normal DPS in WoW when they actually try, and top tank DPS parses prove that.

Healing in WoW is a bit more "evened out" overall, I feel, and it's actually why I'm shelving my healer for a DPS in XIV instead.

Healing in XIV has two situations: either "Maytag Repairman levels of boredom", or "OHSHITOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT!!!" and there's usually not all that much of a gradient between the two.

In WoW, damage is more gradual, but also more consistent, meaning a healer can generally be constantly pushing buttons to be HEALING instead of dealing damage. This, in turn, makes designing raid encounters all around easier because factoring healer DPS into the equation is probably the biggest nightmare the devs have had with XIV.

And it compounds upon itself: if a healer doesn't need to heal, it's because their raid group is experienced enough to know the mechanics and avoid all of the avoidable damage, which in turn frees up a LOT more of the healer's mana and GCDs to devote to DPS.

This means that good groups will do a LOT better and so-so groups will do a LOT worse, making the raiding difficulty "curve" into more of an "S" shape than a parabola.

And I hate to say it, but the other key difference is WoW's 1sec GCD vs. XIV's 2.5sec GCD. This means that damage in XIV generally NEEDS to be spikier due to the amount of time between each spell a healer can cast, otherwise the damage won't even be worth healing up.

The end result is that everyone is sitting at full until suddenly someone is at half health or below and you need to fix that immediately or else the next hit will kill them.

It's a level of whack-a-mole that I've not seen in other MMOs' healing systems and with healer DPS being super simplified in SB, I'm hanging up my globe for something more fun.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

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Great insight, although unfortunate conclusion in the end, I hope one day healing becomes more in line with your enjoyment factor again :(

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

I get complimented by tanks all the time because I heal and rarely dps. I do my best to keep everyone alive because I realize that DPS can out dps me for the most part. (I'm a WHM). If I have time, I'll toss out some DPS, but never at the expense of another player in the group. Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

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Tanks should be complimented for staying in TANK role and holding aggro too. I don't get the constant insistance on tanks doing the DPS job, regardless of the balance requirement that tank dps be within a certain percentage of dps dps.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

You may or may not like it, but it all comes down to "people nowadays are unable to accept that they couldn't progress in the story solo and should group with other people in order to wander in the overworld".

Aka "people nowadays can't be bothered to play a MMO and want to interact the least possible with others".


It has been proved that the group model is an economical failure when at the scale of WoW or FFXIV, but it's not about game balance. Tanks could do 1/10th of the damage DPS do and game balance would be good if DPS took 10 times the damage tank take from auto attacks.

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So you're ok with tanks taking 20 minutes to kill a single mob which a dps finishes off in 3 seconds?

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Isn't WoW an example of how this isn't necessarily true? DPS do massive orders of damage more than tank classes in optimal settings even for the tank, but soloing as a tank in WoW is not considered to be a slog, in fact many think being a tank out in the world is basically god mode (massive AOE damage because of tanking tools, and high survivability).

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I dunno I arrived at my conclusion with math and logic so I don't think WoW actually does that to the degree you say. I played a DPS in WoW and my parses did not exceed the tanks by that much usually. I was doing 300k dps and the tank was sitting at around 100k.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

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Yeah because there is no in between "tanks do 3/4th of dps's job" and "tanks do 1/40th of dps's job".

Not to mention you didn't understand what I was talking about. In a MMO where tank dps is neglictible, all the "I solo the entire game" thing doesn't exist. Tanks can't really kill mobs alone, dps get killed if they try, etc..

God forbid you should group with people in a MMO's overworld map. Ain't got no time to socialize.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

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It's not as useful as the other two, but not "literally nothing" either.

The tank's HP is a buffer, that buffer determines how much the healer can DPS before having to heal. The +healing effect works on embrace, whispering dawn, regen and aspected benefic, I dare say those are the main heals in big pulls.

I think people are forgetting WoW's parties are made up of three damage dealers, one tank, and one healer. Whereas FFXIV has only two damage dealers, one tank, and one healer. This means that in FFXIV, tank and healer damage are more meaningful to the party's success.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I think people are forgetting WoW's parties are made up of three damage dealers, one tank, and one healer. Whereas FFXIV has only two damage dealers, one tank, and one healer. This means that in FFXIV, tank and healer damage are more meaningful to the party's success.

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At the risk of sounding blunt, I think that has very little to do with it. I think the "tank and healer DPS meta" abomination we see in this game mostly arises from a few key factors:

-The devs all think we're noobs and that the actual basics of tanking and healing need to be as fail-proof as possible. This is evident in the egregious power contained within both roles' kits. Tanks get a fire n' forget button that is basically a permanent free mitigation cooldown and a massive enmity lead all at once. You could say, "mob damage is just based around that extra 20% damage reduction!" but it's clearly not because tanks are doing whole chain-pulls in dungeons and ditching Shield/Def/Grit like a bad date once they get enough baseline threat. They don't struggle because they use cooldowns, which is precisely what I mean when I say that tanks are designed to be as fail-proof as possible - Shield/Def/Grit are literally cooldowns for people too bad to use cooldowns. Just squat in those stances even if you're terrible and the healer can keep up, which leads to...

Healer kits suffer from the exact same problem! All of them have ridiculously high throughput not just on their basic heals, but on their "emergency" cooldowns too which are really more like "spam these as often as you can so you can dps more" because their CDs are so short that odds are if an ACTUAL emergency happens to arise you still have something left in your bag to deal with it. 15-second Lustrates (assuming you try to spread them out), 2-minute Thin Air (the WoW equivalent is 3 minutes and is in a game where healers have no mana restoration capabilities whatsoever outside a once-per-fight mana potion or certain trinkets), and 60-second Earthly Star are just redonkulous in the grand scheme of relative HP, and on TOP of that healers have pretty good innate mana restore and their basic heals are also pretty powerful all things considered. Don't even get me started on regens, and how completely overpowered they are on two jobs who come packed to the brim with burst heals as well.


-Damage in XIV is delivered in a really weird, bombastic kind of way. It's either virtually nothing, where you can afk and let Eos do the work, or it's 75% of your parties' HP bars with another AOE on the way. This means that every healer has to be bursty AF when it comes to heals, or else they can't survive in a raid environment. This also means that tank cooldowns have to do incredible lifting on relatively short CDs, because the boss is basically either only autoing or doing a super-move that will hit you for more than your max HP if not mitigated. (This same concept also brute-forces shield healers into comps, or else you'd just stack double-regen healers as they're way more efficient per cast).

What this means overall is that there's not really any room for unique styles of tanking and healing, such as parry-based or evasion-based tanking, or HoT-based/lifesteal based sustain healing - it's really easy to predict how future jobs will be designed because they all need to be equipped with the kit to handle telatively infrequent but hard-hitting unavoidable AOEs.


-Fully-scripted encounters hurts the hell out of overarching raid design. Healers have no need to conserve mana and tanks have no need to squat in tank stance in raids because everyone knows exactly when the damage is going to come out, and exactly how much it's going to hit for (barring unlucky crits). When your OT knows that Twin Bolt is coming out at THIS precise time and he needs to stack with MT, just bust a CD and maybe toggle tank stance and you're g2g, no need to mix it up or adjust. When the healers know there's a 4x D.Wave in phase 6 of OS3 they know to have Indom/Star/Assize/Thin Air+Presence or whatever up to deal with it, and THAT means that they can use those abolities at x time earlier in the fight because they will 100% be off CD by then.


To close, I should point out that I feel like it's too late to put Pandora's folly back in it's box. I actually HATE the tank and healer DPS meta with the fire of 1,000 suns, but at this point even someone like I can acknowledge that it's this huge plethora of issues that contribute to it, and that for the developers to "fix" it they'd have to do a near-100% overhaul of most of the mechanics in this game, including scripted mob patterns, all boss attacks, and nerf the power of tanks and healers pretty handily - which I suspect would definitely NOT be worth the backlash. I'd love for it to happen, but it's just so unlikely at this point.

Healers can put some dots on and broil 2 but I rather want a healer that does healing and keep the party alive than a healer that is too focussed on DPS. Remember the main job is Healing. If the dps is lacking and you meet enrage, the DPS classes fail at their job and should improve. Tldr; Don't blame the healer or tanks to cover up your shortcomings as a DPS.