SCH opinons on the change

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Do you even SCH? lol You have no public parses, so yea.

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"I can't argue with you, so I'm gonna question your credibility"

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Scholar's shields cost more because in addition to Lucid Dreaming they have Aetherflow on 60s. Noct AST does not have this. Why people keep complaining about the MP costs while neglecting the superior MP regeneration and MP-saving abilities Scholar has is beyond me.

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And AST has ewer, and lightspeed where SCH has their now nerfed aetherflow. Both have lucid dreaming. Sure, ewer is RNG, and a little opportunity cost compared to aetherflow, but it's there alongside lightspeed cutting mp costs by 25% for the duration.

Under the assumption that SCH's MP costs on adloquium, and succor breaks even with SCH's access to aetherflow and somehow levels the playing field in MP cost vs AST, what justifies nocturnal aspected benefic/helios shields being stronger, a stronger upfront heal for aspected helios, and in aspected benefic's case, an instant cast?

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

You lose half your tool kit and are LOCKED out.

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Half your kit?

Really?

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Somtimes when I used Fey Union and the tank moves away, the debuff stays on your party list, but your fairy doesn't actually do anything. I've also noticed that when I time my Excog as a sort of lustrate for a tankbuster, it's like the tank does not get healed by it at all while Excog did go off.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

There's 3 seconds max before Eos begins casting what you commanded her -- the length of her GCD.

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This is true in theory, but in practice she will still do whatever she damn well pleases. I have had many times that I hit Rouse and started mashing Whispering Dawn, and Eos proceeded to ignore me for the entire duration of Rouse. Pet AI as it exists now is just... bad.

So what does miasma 2 do now? I can't get on right now to look and I don't know if it's changed, the patch notes aren't specific.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

Under the assumption that SCH's MP costs on adloquium, and succor breaks even with SCH's access to aetherflow and somehow levels the playing field in MP cost vs AST, what justifies nocturnal aspected benefic/helios shields being stronger, a stronger upfront heal for aspected helios, and in aspected benefic's case, an instant cast?

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It costs AST a GCD and MP to cast the shield. Scholar doesn't even need the shield. Lustrate + Embrace is sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

This is true in theory, but in practice she will still do whatever she damn well pleases. I have had many times that I hit Rouse and started mashing Whispering Dawn, and Eos proceeded to ignore me for the entire duration of Rouse. Pet AI as it exists now is just... bad.

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Then you were out of range. The AI doesn't act any differently for you than it does for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

"I can't argue with you, so I'm gonna question your credibility"

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I can't question your credibility because you have none.

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Originally Posted by Aidoc

So what does miasma 2 do now? I can't get on right now to look and I don't know if it's changed, the patch notes aren't specific.

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100 potency up front and a 100 potency DoT over 12 seconds. Still instant cast.

The spell is freakin nuts. It's pretty much the new Ruin II for Energy Drain weaving.

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Originally Posted by Xygoz

Honestly, Not to happy.
Our shields are still crap, and our heals are still crap...
yay 45sec recast on aetherflow...
adlo mp cost still stupid high
Succor mp cost still stupid high
indo recast still 30 seconds, it was fine at 400 pot really
and the list goes on lol
/facedesk

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The only thing /facedesk about this post is the fact you got 11 likes.

If you think these changes are bad and you think SCH is weak, you need to find a new job. Maybe you should try RDM, it's stupidly EZ mode.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Then you were out of range. The AI doesn't act any differently for you than it does for everyone else.

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There's a range on issuing commands? Or you mean the fairy was out of range? Because she does fly up to get close enough to cast things like embrace. Where as Whispering Dawn doesn't require any "range" so im really curious what you mean. Out of range of the effect?

While I doubt the entirety of Rouse could go by without a command since you can queue abilities with Embrace, to even imply the fairy is not clunky is incorrect. Embrace will cancel things like moving, it will delay commands. On multiple occasions I have had to move her twice because she stopped mid way to cast embrace. So you can potential take up to the cast of embrace or if she really wants embrace, moving, stopping mid way for embrace, and then moving again. At that point the opportunity for anything you were planning is ruined.

Is this latter scenario rare? Yes. Does it happen? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

There's a range on issuing commands?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

I have had to move her twice because she stopped mid way to cast embrace.

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She literally does not do this.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

It's almost as if people are aware that AST do have other means to recover MP besides Lucid Dreaming. Lightspeed to reduce costs if need be, Ewer for MP recovery, which can be extended if needed. The idea that AST doesn't have means to recover MP outside Lucid is just wrong.

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Does an Ewer allow AST to cast Cure II for free? How many? And at what cost? The opportunity cost of an AoE RR or a different card is far from negligible.

Does extending lightspeed by C.O. refresh enough MP for a free Helios?

It's almost as if people aren't aware that Aetherflow stacks allow free healing to the tune of 5000+ MP every 60 seconds.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Then you were out of range. The AI doesn't act any differently for you than it does for everyone else.

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It was A11S. It would have been literally impossible for me to be out of range.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

It was A11S. It would have been literally impossible for me to be out of range.

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Then submit a bug report.

Miasma II:

Pros: unique dps in that it is a high power dot and base. 100 + 100 and instant. They essentially combined aero and blizzard iI dps wise.

Cons:
Short area of effect.
Huge mp cost relative to what blizzard was, but i guess ok compared to holy/gravity.
Not ranged.

Overall i think se did good on this one.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Miasma II:

Pros: unique dps in that it is a high power dot and base. 100 + 100 and instant. They essentially combined aero and blizzard iI dps wise.

Cons:
Short area of effect.
Huge mp cost relative to what blizzard was, but i guess ok compared to holy/gravity.
Not ranged.

Overall i think se did good on this one.

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It's honestly prettu much exactly what I was hoping for. Would have preferred if it was a 50x2 DoT instead of 25x4, but either way the potency allows it to be spammed on 3+ groups as long as you can afford the MP, or cast one every few GCDs and healing in between if you're going for efficiency. I am left a bit confused that they put it as a Job skill at 46 instead of slotting it back into the vacant Lv40 Job quest, though.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Then submit a bug report.

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"Dear SE, your pet AI is garbage. Please fix." This is not something that needs a bug fix, it needs a system overhaul.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Does an Ewer allow AST to cast Cure II for free? How many? And at what cost? The opportunity cost of an AoE RR or a different card is far from negligible.

Does extending lightspeed by C.O. refresh enough MP for a free Helios?

It's almost as if people aren't aware that Aetherflow stacks allow free healing to the tune of 5000+ MP every 60 seconds.

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That is... not how SCH's MP management works. They don't really allow free healing. Any Aetherflow stack spent on anything other than Energy Drain is a straight up loss of 1200MP. Those 3 "Cure II"s that we get to cast every 45-60 seconds? (And will point out that Lustrate is still weaker than Cure II.) Those are the only ones we get, and they're competing for limited resource with 5 other abilities.

It's a bit off topic, but I'll come right out and say it. Even though 10% Aetherflow + Lucid Dreaming is objectively stronger than the old 20% Aetherflow (Or at least was before the Quickened Aetherflwo buff, haven't redone the math yet), SCH as a job is worse off with the homogenizing of healer skills that Lucid and Largesse have caused.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The only thing /facedesk about this post is the fact you got 11 likes.

If you think these changes are bad and you think SCH is weak, you need to find a new job. Maybe you should try RDM, it's stupidly EZ mode.

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where in their post did they say the changes were bad? All they mentioned was that they didn't exactly hit the issues that a few other scholars wanted fixed.

You misunderstand.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

She literally does not do this.

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Whether you believe it or not does not invalidate the experience so /shrug. Please also show me where I can find information on the range of issuing commands, because I've definitely never noticed this.

Edit: Just tested range and guess what I found? No range on issuing commands, she will either de-spawn or return to you if not stationary before cutting off command issuing.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Whether you believe it or not does not invalidate the experience so /shrug. Please also show me where I can find information on the range of issuing commands, because I've definitely never noticed this.

Edit: Just tested range and guess what I found? No range on issuing commands, she will either de-spawn or return to you if not stationary before cutting off command issuing.

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If eos is out of range for a command (including Fey Union) she will move to be able to cast it, after fey union ends she will start moving again as before fey union was cast.

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Originally Posted by Clouse_Cleyra

If eos is out of range for a command (including Fey Union) she will move to be able to cast it, after fey union ends she will start moving again as before fey union was cast.

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This was in response to RajaVamberaux saying that there is a range past which pets will no longer receive commands, not anything about the range of the pet abilities themselves.

There is a range requirement on Aetherpact, because that is technically an ability that you are using on the fairy, not actually a pet ability. Same as Rouse. Whispering Dawn and such are straight pet abilities though, and do not have command ranges.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

"Dear SE, your pet AI is garbage. Please fix." This is not something that needs a bug fix, it needs a system overhaul.

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The behavior that was described is not reproducable. The pet will not interrupt a Place command in order to Embrace. If this was encountered, yeah - that's called a bug. (It also didn't happen.)

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

That is... not how SCH's MP management works. They don't really allow free healing. Any Aetherflow stack spent on anything other than Energy Drain is a straight up loss of 1200MP. Those 3 "Cure II"s that we get to cast every 45-60 seconds? (And will point out that Lustrate is still weaker than Cure II.) Those are the only ones we get, and they're competing for limited resource with 5 other abilities.

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That's... actually exactly how Scholar MP management works. Your math is a little off. Indomitability over Energy Drain is a gain of 1080 MP. Lustrate over ET + Aldo is a gain of 600 MP. Only when healing isn't needed is Energy Drain an MP gain, and if healing isn't needed why wouldn't stacks be spent on Energy Drain anyways?

Further, a stack spent on Lustrate or Indomitability instead of Energy Drain is a DPS gain over any GCD heal, period. It's not 'competing for other abilities' when one of those abilities is a buffed Lustrate and another is an AoE Bole that has very niche uses (some competition!!).

The fact of the matter is, many Scholars have been overhealing with shields and now it's caught up to them. Here's an example: I see Scholars Succor the first Uheki in Susano when the party is nearly topped all the time! How about instead you let some HP drop and Indom instead. This is just one of many many cases where Scholars have been overabusing shields to the detriment of both their MP capacity and DPS output, and instead of doing some simple math to show how Lustrate & Indom are the most superior uses of stacks all I hear is Energy Drain! Energy Drain!

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

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They complained about no reason to use Excog. Fixed.

They complained about how lame Aetherflow trait was. Fixed.

They complained about Aetherpact range and using gauge even when link broke. Fixed.

They complained about no spammable AOE. Fixed.

They complained about MP. Partially fixed (I never had any MP problems to begin with).

I think you misunderstand.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

The behavior that was described is not reproducable. The pet will not interrupt a Place command in order to Embrace. If this was encountered, yeah - that's called a bug. (It also didn't happen.)

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That you have never personally noticed it happening does not mean that it doesn't happen. Congratulations, you're either unobservant or have gotten lucky. It does happen.

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and instead of doing some simple math to show how Lustrate & Indom are the most superior uses of stacks all I hear is Energy Drain! Energy Drain!

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Says the person who's parses I'm looking at show using Energy Drain twice as often as Lustrate and Indom combined. Yes, obviously the superior usage.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

The behavior that was described is not reproducable. The pet will not interrupt a Place command in order to Embrace. If this was encountered, yeah - that's called a bug. (It also didn't happen.)

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1. If you acknowledge something could be a bug, you cant say it did not happen.
2. i'm open to the possibility of it being a bug, as I said it was a rare scenario. To better state it has only happened twice, in Lakshmi EX after the first set of orb drops during the first chanchala. When im prepping deployment for the stack mechanic.

Given the exact similarities, I can see how it could be a bug (although it never really crossed my mind just frustrating in the moment). That doesn't change how garbage the AI for pets in general is.

Are we really forgetting about Thin Air right here?

Thin Air > SC + Ress > MEDICA 2 > CURE 3 > CURE 3 ,someone please do the math for the free MP right here.

Also a moment of butt hurt, AF restores lesser mp than a single Aldo cast. (unless you stack full piety material i guess) How pathetic is this? But i have to admit playing SCH so far, i didn't face any extreme adversity from mp issue because i didn't cast Aldo most of the time.

SE took 10% off our mp from AF, increases the MP for Succor & Aldo. (triple nerf right here to our mp management?) Yea Lucid Dreaming which is now available to ALL healers.

YAY YO, i am a SCHOLAR that don't use Aldo so frequently cause i need to manage my mana for other heals. (Scholar's main role is damage mitigation *nods head*)

Isn't that just a ton of pointless AoE overhealing though?

While not listed in the tooltip, Aetherpact has a range similar to Rouse and cannot be triggered if the fairy is beyond about 25-30 yalms from the player (Rouse range is 25y incidentally, and physick is 30y; aetherpact's cutoff is around there). You can experience this easily in Lakshimi if you place your fairy near the tank and then run out of healing range with a lotus.

I have never experienced the fairy failing to respond to a command over distance, though I have seen it despawn due to distant placement in large arenas like A7S (placed in a distant corner while I ran with flame debuff), so you have to be careful about such things if the arena is large enough (this is somewhat rare). An exception to this is Embrace, as Eos will not move to cast it and must be within 25y of a target or she will most often tilt her head in a confused manner and stare off into space. I HAVE felt the need to mash commands though, as she will occasionally ignore a single input of an ability if you time it at the beginning of her Embrace casting (this is not too uncommon, so you should always mash WD and the like 2-3 times).

There was a time where the fairy's AI was wonky in HW between patches where she would stop in the middle of movement during the Place command and cast embrace, but this was hotfixed in the next patch and only occurred in a very small window of the game. Currently and most of the time she will not interrupt place movement, though to make sure we're clear on this, this was something that was an issue for a very brief window.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

All I can say is, "use the right tool in the right situation."

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Try casting Whispering Dawn with EOS, that 3 second is gone right there if she is casting embrace on someone at that moment.

EOS takes a dip down, collects all the pixie dust she store under that tiny skirt of hers, spinning upwards ensuring her dust twinkle and stuff. That is 5 seconds right there by the time Whispering Dawn hits the team + another 1 second for it to tick *winks* (or otherwise longer if she decide to embrace someone else cause she lacks love)

I will just assume you are always playing with your premade team that makes no/minimal mistakes based on what you explained above.

I cant count how many times, for e.g. Susano EX phase 3 Churning, BrightStorm, Lightning Cloud happening at the same time. Someone shift the BrightStorm so the team wont get hit by the Lightning cloud with Churning debuff on them, always result in very devastating damage dealt to the team. Most of the time 1 - 2 deaths or more if that idiot decide not to die himself and bring that AOE to share with the already low health team.

Indom - Yea i cast it right away provided i don't have to spam Lustrate to make sure the Tanks / Healer survive.
SC + Succor - Depending on situation, if my other Healer/Tank is dead SC Ress instead.

EOS to .. yea i leave it to fate after i mash Whispering Dawn 2 times.

If you think you can "Pre Plan" and use your spells at the "Right time" try queuing EX on incomplete DF, these new players need some love. i do that all the time cause it challenges me to learn how to play healer better given any kind of situation. you can say its not realistic to look at things that way, but from the way i compare it no doubt other healers are having a easier time than scholar right now period.

That being said, i am still targeting at the fact that our Faerie needs more improvement. Obey needs to be reiterated into their AI.

PS: i still love my Faeries <3

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Originally Posted by Kiddiotic

If you think you can "Pre Plan" and use your spells at the "Right time" try queuing EX on incomplete DF, these new players need some love. i do that all the time cause it challenges me to learn how to play healer better given any kind of situation. you can say its not realistic to look at things that way, but from the way i compare it no doubt other healers are having a easier time than scholar right now period.

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To be fair, Susano is probably one of the absolute easiest fights to pre-plan fairy and SCH ability usage in the game because his Unkehi mechanic occurs about every 60 seconds, so it syncs with cooldowns. Pop Whispering Dawn during the lightning strikes and it will both help recover damage from the struck targets but be up for the Unkehi that always follows. Use either Fey Covenant or Fey Illumination during the end of lightning phase as well and you can stagger them, as one will always be available for each Unkehi. Shield the tank busters. Save an aetherize stack for indomitability prior to the dice mechanic, which always comes at a set time. Use Fey Union during Gaols or jump rope, whichever you prefer.

If you're trying to recover players who aren't familiar with the mechanics, then you need to realize that a healer is only supposed to be able to do so much. There will always come a point where player responsibility exceeds healer recovery, otherwise why have mechanic-dances at all?

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Originally Posted by Raim

Isn't that just a ton of pointless AoE overhealing though?

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Susano sword deflecting phase, i guess that cure 3 can be justified here.

Regardless, its free mp =)

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

If you're trying to recover players who aren't familiar with the mechanics, then you need to realize that a healer is only supposed to be able to do so much. There will always come a point where player responsibility exceeds healer recovery, otherwise why have mechanic-dances at all?

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And i explained myself in the last statement. There is just so much you can "pre plan" most of the time knowing your mechanics. the others depends on the team you are with.

Okay. So I healed with these changes. Normal healing content was about the same. Indom feels very OP in normal raids/dungeons (13k crit! ;O) Then I tried Delta 1S. Terrible. I was OOM minutes in. Exco expired without use when put on the tank for the tank buster. LOL. Learned that lessen. Save Exco for the spell that puts everyone's HP to 1-ish. Still, he does two or three roars after dropping everyone's HP to 1. With the extra healing power spell, I got out an Indom, ET + Succor, and another Succor before the roars came in. That barely brought the parties HP up to above 40% and people still died. In all, I felt very, very weak compared to my Ast co-healer. It felt like she was doing way more in terms of healing. They gave us some shiny things and made our lives easier in the easier content but the issues felt way more apparent in the difficult setting. Succor, even buffed with the healing up spell (the role spell) plus ET, still doesn't keep up. It's very slow and the healing is tiny. Indo is nice-ish but the CD is very long when we're talking about high party wide damage coming very fast (roar did enough damage to take out 50% ~ 70%-ish of the party HP per roar -- every second or two and right after he drops your HP to 1.) Can't keep up with that. And then you go OOM very, very quickly.

But I'm a mediocre healer and it's patch day. I'll hope this is just first day issues with new content. It was also in the DF so no group or voice chat. We did 8 or 9 wipes before we disbanded. I'll hope for a better time tomorrow. LOL.

BTW, what is SE's obsession with pushing ppl of cliffs? Does every fight have to have a cliff to fall off of?

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

It's plenty consistent enough for me.

If you're at the point that you really need AF to be off CD, you likely have already used all three stacks so it's at 45sec. If you didn't use all your AF stacks before it pops off CD, you didn't really need the additional "oh shit!" healing that the AF stacks provided.

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you are correct. I'm just trying to make people aware that its not a consistent 45 seconds, but a consistent inconsistent 45 seconds. but as you said if you have expended all of your stacks with 6 or more seconds remaining then its 45 seconds total. if not then you didn't need the extra heals/skills at that time to the CD time is moot.

The still glaring and obvious healing issues aside. The new Miasma II is nice, 200 total potency that is not reduced, so that's nice. The only issue I sorta have is that, given our playstyle, me having to dash in to use it every 12 seconds or so can put some strain on my parties HP. The only change i'd like to see is making it ranged. If a cast time needs to be added that's fine with me, but dashing in and out doesn't feel right. I know the old Miasma II was like this, but the damage wasn't it main usage; here it is.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

I got out an Indom, ET + Succor, and another Succor before the roars came in. That barely brought the parties HP up to above 40% and people still died

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Was your other healer picking their nose?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Was your other healer picking their nose?

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It was duty finder, so they may have been dead.

Is Roar magical? Fey Covenant might get a new place to shine if so.

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

The behavior that was described is not reproducable. The pet will not interrupt a Place command in order to Embrace. If this was encountered, yeah - that's called a bug. (It also didn't happen.)

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This happened to me all the time (several times a day) in 3.5 until I gave up on using place except in certain circumstances. I don't know if it happens in 4.05 but I could reliably do it in 3.5 It's absolutely a bug.

Good: AF now effectively at 45 sec CD, Fey Union doesn't burn the meter when target is out of range, Miasma II is back (hurray!), Aetherpact change

"Eh, meh": Indomability at 500 pot (why though? There was nothing wrong with the old potency), Emergency Tactics now 20 sec CD (yeah, SE is trying to tell us that our shields are now even more useless) [I'll glady take those changes but I don't think they were necessary]

Not what we wanted: Excog at 800 pot (superior potency to Lustrate with now longer duration, so even MORE TIME for tank self heal to prevent it going off)

While I can clearly see that SE tried to adress some of SCHs issue with this update, I don't feel like it will help much. Unless you're making Excog to trigger guaranteed (by casting it below 50% hp) it is still unpredictable and in the worst case will run off without any heal (can happen, will happen, not everyone playing the freaking game is a triple A pro gamer). Furthermore I don't think that reducing the CD on ET will help much to restore the jobs identity. Our one ply toilette paper shields are now nothing more than a potenial increase in healing when we wish so. Avoiding damage doesn't seem to be on our agenda anymore.

My take is that SCHs aren't a shield based healer anymore. They're now a healer build around the AF mechanic and that this is their primary source of healing, accompanied by more spammable, partly expensive, heals like Physick and Adlo. Not sure if this is how I wanted the SCH to be.

I basically look at the upgraded Excog as a harder-to-use Essential Dignity that costs Aetherflow.

With the MP issues that don't seem to be fixed with the more-frequent AF cooldown, I didn't want ET to have reduced cooldown.
I'd prefer it to have a bit more power instead of being a more-expensive Medica/Helios on a recast timer. Get some value in there. It already costs more MP.