Halve mana on stance swap

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

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I think this is a good idea, but probably not realistic until the next expansion. It would be simple to do (add a hate drop on DPS stance or something), but considering all our new toys are DPS and some are stance-restricted it would make people mad to be forced into tank stance unless they give us new toys for hate generation to keep us interested.

If they dropped this on us now, it would be like being given a toy cardboard sword and then having that sword soaked with water so it's floppy and useless. You'd be more angry than if you never got the toy in the first place!

At the end of the day FFXIV is a theme park where we get to play out the hero of a FF game and feel awesome for a few hours a week. They need to make our toys all feel really important; if they wanted to put us into tank stance, then they've already failed to design it so that cool to do so.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

This thread is really funny. On the other side, it's weird how some people are saying war is fine and and they don't even have it leveled. No one wants it to be OP as some claims. It's not completely broken, but it's very clunky and definitely needs fixing. I myself am a war main since the beginning of ARR and I'm still playing it, though what is our reward for playing a clunky complicated job? Nothing, that's what the current war is. It's viable, but it makes you feel like shit.

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I love it when people claim a sarcastic thread poster is being ignorant but then claim we lose the least when we switch stances. Stuff like that is real ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's kind of surprising how much misinformation is floating around out there about how these actions actually work. Perhaps the solution is not to buff the job, but buff our knowledge?

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He's joking...

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I don't think he's pretending. I think he's completely oblivious to the fact that the adjustments to WAR were not only appropriate, but long overdue and is complaining about anything and everything without any knowledge about the skills he's complaining about in the hopes that somehow SE is as ignorant as he is and will buff WAR to be overpowered as hell again.

From a purely mathematical perspective, both the tank stance penalty and the stance-dance penalties are better balanced right now than at any point in the past. The only thing WAR needs is some kind of TBN/Intervention equivalent to use as OT. Otherwise they're more than fine since they still have the most flexible stance changes.

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1. How about no. Not only because you have absolutely zero proof about that but because he's exaggerating so much in this thread you literally should not take 99% of it seriously...which people are and it's just...why?

2. You have no idea what you are talking about. You can't call someone oblivious then post that.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

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Well i have both the knowledge and skills to be complaining and he isnt far off. SE is not ignorant, thats why war will certainly see huge buffs. super unbalanced is more like it. Have one tank class with no utility a 2× harder rotation and do the same damage as the other two. Putting drk with only one raid utility below the dps of a pld is fkn retarded and putting war under them is even worse considering the last of ANY RAID urility. The only reason slashing was ever considered a utility was because it was a dps loss for bin, but now sam and min do it at no cost. Oh and lets half gauge on swap when though war is the only tank actually affected by the penalty. Don't try and tell me some bs about mana or your shelltron thats a weak at argument. Doemt affect gameplay at all and it doesn't cost drk or pld upwards of 500 dps like it does to war. The penalty is crippling only to them. Also war was never overpowered, the meta just made them a nessicity. Drk actually could do more damage when played at the top.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Now you have a stance that actually costs something as opposed to being borderline-free

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To be honest i always wanted that SE would make PLD and DRK stances oGCD and free but they took the boring route and removed that luxury from WAR as well ;_;

This thread reminded me that I can still laugh after square screwed Soo much. Good job OP

This thread. Some of you are sarcastically joking about changes. Some of you are attempting to make legitimate suggestions that are by far worse than the troll suggestions.

Before you take the time to dream up some stupid "fix", ask yourself "am I an idiot?" and if the answer is yes, don't bother posting your garbage suggestions.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

But those are the biggest changes that could be made. Outside of just buffing potencies. War would be able to ignore damage penalty while building threat then switch to dps stance with no penalty or cost whatsoever. That's a huge boost. Not only that, it would really eliminate any choices you'd have to make. Lack of choices generally equals stagnant gameplay.

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It is really not that big of a boost from a meta point of view. Pally will still have greater DPS and utility, meaning it is still not that unlikely we will see double pally in the world first race. Sure without DRK buffs to DPS it likely makes WAR>DRK, but I am for DRK buffs.

Opening in tank stance with unchained is really just a quality of life thing, so you can do it in pug/more causal setting. As any speed kill, or if progression hits a enrage wall, will have the tanks open in dps stance. Same with the halving of the gauge. In theory WAR's will just be pushing to be in dps stance full fight, never needing the switch. Basically optimal WAR dps is tied to the skills of your group more then ever, adjusting for what I said just allows for a bit of separation.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

But those are the biggest changes that could be made. Outside of just buffing potencies. War would be able to ignore damage penalty while building threat then switch to dps stance with no penalty or cost whatsoever. That's a huge boost. Not only that, it would really eliminate any choices you'd have to make. Lack of choices generally equals stagnant gameplay.

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I'm for Unchained being separated from Inner Release, but meta wise, Unchained is actually a DPS loss. What the meta groups would do is have the WAR open with Tomahawk+Equilibrium while having a NIN use Shadewalker. Unchained is good for pugs though.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'm for Unchained being separated from Inner Release, but meta wise, Unchained is actually a DPS loss. What the meta groups would do is have the WAR open with Tomahawk+Equilibrium while having a NIN use Shadewalker. Unchained is good for pugs though.

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It's a dps loss when you can just jump through a hoop of fire on one leg while balancing 3 glasses of milk and an egg on your forehead instead.

I still think unchained is a strong cd, no other tank can ignore their tank stance damage penalty. If top end meta players aren't going to use unchained anyways, then it's basically just a QOL change for those of us in the middle. I mean I'm not saying I'd be pissed or happy if they do or don't change it, literally makes no difference to me. I just see it leading to more convoluted technique finagling if they both reduced/eliminated the cost of swapping stances and untied IR/Unchained. And it provides further incentive to tank in deliverance as much as possible which I think is the exact opposite direction the devs intended by the changes.

Just a small note but in PvP WAR doesn't lose any BG when dropping or going in stance :^)

Damn you SE why you must tease us! :D

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I still think unchained is a strong cd, no other tank can ignore their tank stance damage penalty.

And it provides further incentive to tank in deliverance as much as possible which I think is the exact opposite direction the devs intended by the changes.

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I would actually disagree with this statement now. This was true in 2.0 and 3.0, but for 4.0 consider the case of WAR and Pally. For a similar amount of time that WAR has access to unchained (20 seconds every 2 min), Pally has Requiescat, Holy Spam in tank stance. (24 seconds every 2 min) The 20% buff actually outweighs the 15% damage reduction. So you are basically getting the 24 seconds of 450 potency attacks. This is much less then the WAR Unchain buff which would just remove the damage down from tank stance, on a average combo potency of only 197.

Requiescat, Holy Spam is comparable to WAR Fell rotations, but WAR can only access these in dps stance (which is kind of the big problem people raise with WAR design when now balancing to the other two).

WAR have ALL the reason now to only ever tank/be in deliverance....

I really have no idea where you are going with these, or if you understand the job. We basically said, "we want these for QoL", you said "all you want is dps increase", then we explained them, and you are like "all it is, is QoL"....... well yes.....

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Just a small note but in PvP WAR doesn't lose any BG when dropping or going in stance :^)

Damn you SE why you must tease us! :D

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LOL don't even start with the unbalanced, useless mess that is PvP WAR.

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

I really have no idea where you are going with these, or if you understand the job. We basically said, "we want these for QoL", you said "all you want is dps increase", then we explained them, and you are like "all it is, is QoL"....... well yes.....

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That's probably because I have my own internal confusions about how I feel on the whole mess myself lol

On one hand, I don't really care what they change. I'm going to play the way I play either way, just as I am now. On the other hand, I understand completely the concept and purpose of the dps-meta tanking, I just don't agree with it. It feels inherently wrong to me for some reason. I worked extremely hard maximizing my dps on dragoon, an actual strength and dps based job. The only way you push tank dps is by causing undue stress on other party members, specifically healers. It's fine in a group setting, nothing wrong with it at all if everyone agrees, but it shouldn't be the "norm" in my opinion. The reason I quit tanking in HW was because I was not about to drop millions on crafted accessories, force my healers to stress over my squishy ass, or beg monks and drgs to pass on their accessory drops so I could equip them. It's silly for many reasons (in my opinion). So if I can be a voice against that then I will be.

I guess I'm also mystified (but not really) that some people, including myself, can look at the changes and say "I can make this work". While others look at the exact same changes and scream how broken it all is. It's kind of like, 10 years ago you bought a game and played it the way it was. Now you buy a game and if you don't like it you flock to the devs and demand they change it to suit what you want. :/

So yea, if I come off as inconsistent those are some reasons why. But, we are also allowed to change our minds right? (or be proven wrong?)

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

LOL don't even start with the unbalanced, useless mess that is PvP WAR.

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Its not that bad actually assuming you are getting healed, tho 3.X was godly and this current version is just a shadow of its former glory(it was john f..king rambo back then!!)

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Originally Posted by Synestra

To be honest i always wanted that SE would make PLD and DRK stances oGCD and free but they took the boring route and removed that luxury from WAR as well ;_;

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I'm in favor of this.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Its not that bad actually assuming you are getting healed, tho 3.X was godly and this current version is just a shadow of its former glory(it was john f..king rambo back then!!)

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Holmgang never gets old though. ever.

All those DPS who want to run away...nothing makes them saltier then yanking them back int the midst of you and your friends.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I love it when people claim a sarcastic thread poster is being ignorant but then claim we lose the least when we switch stances. Stuff like that is real ignorance.

He's joking...






1. How about no. Not only because you have absolutely zero proof about that but because he's exaggerating so much in this thread you literally should not take 99% of it seriously...which people are and it's just...why?

2. You have no idea what you are talking about. You can't call someone oblivious then post that.

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But mathematically it is better balanced?

For example, look at the stance swap. PLD: 506 potency, DRK: 425 potency, WAR: ~400 potency. That's way better balanced than in the past when it was WAR: 0 potency.

Tank stance penalty: PLD: 25%, WAR: 22%, DRK: 23%. Certainly better than when it was at any point in ARR or HW.

It may not be perfect, but it's definitely better.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

How are you calculating the potency loss? And why do you only talk about the stance dance penalty? Yes it's one of the biggest changes to war, but how about no utility? The huge loss of self sustain? The most complicated yet does the same dps as pld or even lower?

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Yeah they apparently forgot the part where WAR could use a 680 potency attack while in Defiance immediately every single time they switch stances no matter what if they had the gauge. Or could use it's level 70 move in defiance. Or could use it's best mitigation ability in deliverance. Or could self heal.


It's "better" for the other tanks but a major loss to WAR in every single regard. This person seems to think that a similar dps loss equates to basically the same punishment. If the kits were exactly the same, I would agree. But the WAR job does not operate that way. It operates differently from every single job in the game. So you can't possibly just apply a dps loss and say the punishment is similar. The entire job revolves around the gauge, in DRK and PLD the gauge simply accentuates the job but does not define them. There's even a thread on PLD that talks about how useless their gauge is right now. How can that possibly equate to similar punishment?

DRK doesn't lose its blood for stance swiching. PLD doesn't lose 99% of its utility if it loses any at all. And both can make up MP loss in one combo.

When PLD and DRK switch stances they don't lose any major tools. When WAR switches stances the entire job changes.

It's not the same. Why can't people understand that?

As a Paladin we already lose half our meter when we swap stances.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

As a Paladin we already lose half our meter when we swap stances.

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Do you lose your biggest source of mitigation when you switch? No.

Do you lose half of your of your kit when you switch? No.

Does your level 70 ability depend on your stance? No.

Do you lose your biggest dps tools when you switch? No.

Does switch and not having enough gauge to use Shelton or intervention completely ruin any chance you have to survive a hit? No.

Do you get instant 20% damage mitigation when you switch? Yes.

Can you restore MP lost with one combo? Yes.

Does your health based damage ability depend on stance and take gauge? No.

Does your dps nuke use gauge? No.

Does your heal only work in one stance? No.

Does your MP regen work in only one stance? No.

So you lose half your gauge, do you think that NOBODY has noticed or commented on that before something?

PLD's gauge is used so little that people literally have a thread right now asking for ways to make better usage of it because of how useless it is. Two abilities use it.

WAR has 10 abilities that use the gauge. 7 that are stance specific. 4 that use half the gauge.

But yeah, I'm supposed to feel bad for PLD a class that barely uses it.

How about no tank loses their gauge/mana when tank swapping? I think that would be better.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

How about no tank loses their gauge/mana when tank swapping? I think that would be better.

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Of course it would be.

But the very idea of it is anathema to people, especially when talking about warrior.

I would like there to be NO penalty on Grit reapplication.

Stance dancing is forced now that Blood Price sucks so bad. Whenever Delirium is up dropping grit for BW is a must.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

How are you calculating the potency loss? And why do you only talk about the stance dance penalty? Yes it's one of the biggest changes to war, but how about no utility? The huge loss of self sustain? The most complicated yet does the same dps as pld or even lower?

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These potencies are simple enough to calculate. PLD's is the average potency per GCD (253/GCD times 2), DRK is using 2400 MP = 140 potency because Dark Arts is 140 potency for most skills (except Carve and Split basically) plus the average potency per GCD, WAR is assuming you lose FC potency for the gauge you lose going into Deliverance and IB potency going into Defiance.

When you say "WAR loses it's entire kit", this is true, but that's simply the way WAR gets numbers. All that matters at the end of the day are the numbers you put out and the damage you take.

For example, Sword Oath is a 15% DPS buff on PLD. Deliverance is only 5%. Fell Cleave being a Deliverance-only skill is how the tank stance penalties are balanced despite Deliverance being so much weaker than Sword Oath on the surface.

In the case of DRK you lose Blood Weapon. DRK's penalty on WAR would be like if you couldn't use Berserk at all in Defiance and your gauge generation was halved, but you could still use Fell Cleave. In fact, Blood Weapon is a bigger DPS boost than Berserk so it would be even worse than that. They just have a different mechanic for getting the same penalty. (On top of this, DRK generates gauge somewhat slower in Grit if you don't use TBK, which in turn means you're using more MP, but that gets complicated depending on if you need TBK for mitigation).

There is a legitimate complaint about the current state of WAR. That is that you don't have a utility ability that you can use in Deliverance like Intervention or The Blackest Knight. WAR should have something to support the party as OT that can be used in Deliverance. It's also true that you can't use Inner Beast in Deliverance, but if you go down that road it's also true that WAR still has a vastly superior mitigation toolkit than DRK no matter how you cut it and easily the strongest mitigation kit in tank stance of any tank. I suppose you could also argue DRK not losing anything turning their tank stance off is slightly unbalanced, but since their penalty is so big turning it on that's only a problem for faceroll content where you use Grit for your first Unmend for extra hate and then leave it off for the rest of the entire fight.

Complaining about the gauge stance change penalty is not a legitimate complaint, DRK and PLD players had to deal with being punished for stance changes for all of HW while WAR players didn't. Some kind of balancing of WAR's overpowered stance dancing was long overdue.

I suppose you could complain that tank stances aren't all just free and oGCD, but that's a path that SE is clearly not interested in going down for whatever reason. They certainly aren't going to discard everything they did in 4.0 and do that instead until the next expansion at the earliest.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I would like there to be NO penalty on Grit reapplication.

Stance dancing is forced now that Blood Price sucks so bad. Whenever Delirium is up dropping grit for BW is a must.

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Thing is the developers purpose for Grit and other tank stances is still baffling. I feel like they want people staying in one stance in the first place, so making it easier to swap would cause people to do the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

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Why is someone who has a level 70 PLD but only a level 54 WAR telling WAR players without even being at level 70 that we have it good?

Never mind that the majority of casual, hardcore, and forum posters here are against it never mind the numerous other players from other classes that support removing it.

Again, YOUR SOLE argument for it is really "WAR has great mitigation" soo...I guess that means DRK and PLD can't MT too? Is this tiny mitigation advantage SO important that it makes up for this boring, zero utility, class?

Great, you can spend an entire fight spamming IB, this proves without a doubt that WAR is doing okay...somehow but guess what?

PLD still offers an incredible array of amazing skills that offer unparalleled team utility for everyone. Something WAR can't even begin to copy it, it does all of that and somehow just barely manages to still MT, it's a miracle truly.

Supposing somehow WAR does have a tiny mitigation advantage, it sure as hell doesn't make WAR fine. Ninja does less damage then SAM but ninja also offers incredible team utility which negates SAM's damage advantage to make it equally if not more useful.

And maybe you are forgetting that automatic 20% damage reduction they get 100% of the time in tank stance? But hey, IB does it for six seconds for 50 gauge that gets halved for switching making it so that that we can't use if we don't switch at anything other then 100% gauge, that's almost OP.


DRK basically can't lose gauge unless they spend it, PLD uses it so little we have threads dedicated to finding better usages for it. But hey, WAR who makes the most use of their gauge needs to be nerfed because stance dancing would be so OP in SB where WAR offers...nothing special to a team.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

But mathematically it is better balanced?

For example, look at the stance swap. PLD: 506 potency, DRK: 425 potency, WAR: ~400 potency. That's way better balanced than in the past when it was WAR: 0 potency.

Tank stance penalty: PLD: 25%, WAR: 22%, DRK: 23%. Certainly better than when it was at any point in ARR or HW.

It may not be perfect, but it's definitely better.

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There is something I miss in those calculations all the time. The fact that both DRK and PLD tankstance functions fundamentally different than WARs.

You can technically use DRK/PLD tankstance as a CD due to its nature of having a damage reduction applied. WARs increases max hp, but does not fill them up, forcing the WAR to add another CD to replentish those HP / mitigate incoming damage if required.

I, personally, think you can't really compare WAR and DRK/PLD tankstances, but of course, this is where many opinions split, and I can understand why. A tankstance is a tankstance after all.

Additionally, if at all, WAR should have a different penalty for switching stances then. We have 8 skills that require gauge, whereas DRK has 3 (2 WS 1 CD) and PLD has 2 (2 CDs). Being locked out of your toolkit never feels fun imho.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

We have 8 skills that require gauge, whereas DRK has 3 (1 WS 1 CD) and PLD has 2 (2 CDs). Being locked out of your toolkit never feels fun imho.

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Actually it's a bit worse.

We have 10 skills that rely on a stance, 8 that require gauge, 4 specific to defiance, 4 that are specific to deliverance, 2 that function differently depending on the stance, and 4 that take 50 gauge total.

PLD has two skills that use gauge and DRK has 3.